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On February 08 2011 20:40 Fir3fly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 20:18 Bommes wrote:
90% of these mistakes matter for masters but they really don't matter for anyone under diamond at all. and thats exactly why they're under diamond (soz for double post)
Hmm, I can see your point there, maybe the majority on this list is just too natural for me, but the point I wanted to make is that at 2,5-2,7k masters you don't see the stuff on this list executed properly. 90% is some neat stuff that the majority does not do even on a decent level, sure they know it's good to do it (or some on the list is just common sense, as I said, maybe it's too natural for me), but they didn't get into masters because of it. They got into masters because they can spend their minerals (at least as long as their 4-gate doesn't fail  ), they have good mouse control, good reflexes and a solid plan for every matchup.
This list is pretty dangerous for lower level players to convince themselves that they lose because they don't do the stuff on it, which is wrong. They should get the cool information they maybe didn't know before out of it, because there is nothing wrong in the list itself. But the majority of it is not the reason why they are in bronze, only their controls and execution of the core basics are the reasons for that. Doing stuff like a lot of Shift-Move-Commands etc. will just waste too much time if your controls are bad and you will therefore macro bad and do other mistakes.
But I got another point:
Using move-command instead of attack-command.
edit:
Everyone who is in bronze and really, REALLY wants to improve I would suggest some kind of multitasking trainer maps, in the beta they have been around for quite a while and I really liked them and your mechanics improve really fast using them, they got a lot of different difficulties and everything. Just improve your controls.
Hell, I should train more on these  They were really good.
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On February 08 2011 22:45 nyc863 wrote:
I agree totally with not needing a worked out build order. If you follow a script, then you are making assumptions about the opponent. No bronze has 3+ different build orders memorized depending on what they see at the opponents base. If they have just one they stick to, then it is a weakness not a strength.
ok the only build order that might be worth practice is the most "normal" one: for T, after the obligatory "gl hf", then supply and barracks, send out scv, block ramp, get orbital, gas, factory and starport smoothly..
Yeah, I just tell friends of mine that are in Bronze basic concepts, like get a few production structures and try to expand, and keep making workers. And don't get caught up on cute gimmicks.
Hell, I've seen Masters league Terrans have their entire game revolve around doing 3 medivac drops in one place, and since I actually pay attention to the mini-map, they just die because I pull workers, FF them in the mineral line, and they die.
The OP's list is good, but perhaps a bit too much. Really, all Bronze players should focus on is-
- Make workers constantly (and I mean never stop, most do, I had a friend on 3 bases with 25 scvs :| )
- Make production if your money keeps getting high and you are making smoothly of your current
- Scout a bit to see if what tech your opponent is getting. But don't get stuck not doing something because you haven't scouted
- Expand every 8 minutes or so.
- Don't throw armies away. Retreat if you are losing the engagement.
- Do not get supply blocked. Make supply when the current building/morphing one finishes (past 50 food)
Or basically - Make workers, keep money low, don't get supply blocked.
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I'm guilty of 1 (after early game), 7-8, 13, 17, 28, 52, 56, 57 etc, as a silver player naturally.
What is the best way to rally your new soldiers after you've lost a battle? And I still can't seem to work auto-repair.
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ha it isn't just the bronze leagues man!
I'm guilty of half those on any given 20 game stretch. Nice list.
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Everyone who is in bronze and really, REALLY wants to improve I would suggest some kind of multitasking trainer maps, in the beta they have been around for quite a while and I really liked them and your mechanics improve really fast using them, they got a lot of different difficulties and everything. Just improve your controls. Hell, I should train more on these They were really good.
Where are these maps??
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I feel like everyone should read this list, watch some replays and put a check next to the points they're guilty of doing. I'll definitely do just that now and start working on like 3 points at a time as it'd be too overwhelming to get all the things right.
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Pretty solid list, thanks for putting this together, I am sure a bunch of people see stuff on their that even they sometimes forget to do (speaking from a high level players perspective)
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On February 08 2011 21:35 chokke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 20:50 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
Here's a much better and much shorter list:
1. Not having a solid build order
2. Clicking icons instead of using hotkeys
3. Not hotkeying your units and production buildings
4. Getting supply blocked
5. Not constantly producing units and workers For a bronze/silver, a solid build order will not work. It's ok to have an overall strategy, but forcing to much on the buildorder removes the thought behind the action and why it's like that. On my level, it's not the build order that wins or loses a game, it's the lack of mechanics and stuff.
That's precisely the advantage of using a fixed build order. You don't have to think about strategy.
There are two reasons why thinking about strategy within the game is bad for newer players. First, almost anything they think about strategy will range somewhere between overly simplistic and completely fucking wrong. And second, if you constantly have to think about what you should do next, you don't have enough mental capacity left for execution.
As you correctly stated, a lack of mechanics is the biggest problem for lower level players and using the same build order over and over again is exactly how you alleviate this problem. When you have played enough with a build, it starts becoming routine and you don't have to consciously think about it anymore, the same way you don't have to think about how to tie your shoelaces.
Once you have reached that state, you can focus almost exclusively on your mechanics and you will start to improve much faster.
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On February 09 2011 01:29 Chillton wrote:Show nested quote +Everyone who is in bronze and really, REALLY wants to improve I would suggest some kind of multitasking trainer maps, in the beta they have been around for quite a while and I really liked them and your mechanics improve really fast using them, they got a lot of different difficulties and everything. Just improve your controls. Hell, I should train more on these They were really good. Where are these maps??
It's in the maps forum on page 1
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124983
There are 5 difficulty settings from very easy (I think this could even be a bit hard if you are in bronze/silver, but I'm not sure. Just don't get frustrated too early) to impossible.
I'm playing against 3,3-3,4k masters people (if they are slightly favored) and the second highest difficulty is really, really challenging for me. This map is really good to improve your controls from my point of view.
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the only problem with this is it's very specific so it wont be remebered and probably not even read all the way. you Should just get all the major ones. Not only that but some of these are acually really hard and shouldnt be counted off as soon it will never happen or you should always be able to.
1.)scout (if possiable)
2.)expand
3.)build SCV's/Probes/drones
4.)keep your money low (you can almost always spend it on somthing like more production and such)
5.)good unit composition(try somthing either standard or somthing that can effectivly deal with the army that you are seeing, when I go mech I decided how many thors and tanks I get by if they get more raoches or more mutas)
6.) I think is most important, have a game plan, it almost dosnt even have to be a great plan just having one is good
Macro/micro/game sense/APM though are all important are all things that will only get better with time and pratice and are best learned playing, not doing those pratice map/tests and such. So dont stress over those, espically APm, it's overrated and will get better with time, dont try and reach a particually high APM either some people get by better and easier without using alot of APM
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Setting rally points to units isn't too bad of an idea... if the unit that's being set as a rally point is strong enough to last a while so a bunch of units aren't humping each other in the base.
And you just watch a harass happen? @_@
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Make workers, constantly produce units, keep money low.
Constantly producing units means making supply depots/pylons/overlords. Keeping money low means building new structures/getting more tech.
That alone is enough information to easily get a player out of bronze. Hell, even expanding isn't necessary at that level.
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This should be stickied and retitled, "Why you are not in masters". I'm afraid that this will be the lmgtfy meme of TL.
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I'd probably include somewhere in there that Macro Hatches are NOT a bad thing.
I was trapped in that mindset a while back. I was absolutely under the impression that macro hatches were verboten, having seen IdrA never use them.
Then I realized: I'm in fucking bronze league. I'm not as good as IdrA. I need a freaking macro hatch.
And then I proceeded to increase my winning percentage marginally, and then realized that I play Zerg, so unlike my Protoss friends in Platinum League, I actually need to follow these rules instead of 4gating every game.
I then raged.
tl;dr: Build macro hatches, fellow bronzies.
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I don't think things that require a lot of APM like "not spreading creep" or "using ghosts" should be used in bronze league games. As a bronze player you should focus on learning to macro at all times, not getting supplylocked, and that's it. Using ghosts or spreading creep will only distract the bronze player.
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EPT
