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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
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On February 05 2011 17:08 drky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 08:53 terranghost wrote:On February 05 2011 07:10 sleepingdog wrote:On February 05 2011 02:26 MorroW wrote:On February 04 2011 11:02 Spekulatius wrote:
I would LOVE to actually see some solutions to the mentioned balance issues.
nerf colosus/high templar/force field buff everything else in midgame (what i mean by that is that you cant straight up buff zealot cause then early game is imbalanced, u have to think out some fancy upgrade for zealots past charge to make it not-useless past early game) i dont talk about extreme nerfs or buffs here. small ones are enough to give more options i just want it to be possible for a protoss to fight a zerg without abusing colosus or FF like a mad man. but whenever they dont have these 2 key things zealots/stalkers etc are complete trash compared to my hydra roach combo in zvt u have tons of choices how you want to battle and make ur unit compositions, most things work great. but as soon as protoss enters mid/late game u have to sit there and only focus on colosus and FF cause thats way better than everything else colossus is pretty much the most bullshit unit for the cost inthe game right now. it deals tons of damage, sick range, really fast and mobile, long sight range and sees up cliffs. tank: doesnt have long sight and its not mobile at all ultralisk: melee, not as mobile thor: not as much range, lot less mobile, no splash to ground all of them cost similar food cost (except tank) but yet the colosus is still alot better than the rest but then go and compare zealot/stalker to marauder/rine or hydra/roach. then toss has no chanse at all. toss has no chance to fight low tier vs low tier, and ithink thats a problem (i dont talk about earlygame) I really like the idea of buffing protoss core stuff and nerfing their fancy stuff....what do you ppl think about giving stalkers +2 instead of +1 for each attack-upgrade? While nerfing the said fancy stuff of course (dunno how). On zealots this can't work because they would be OP against terran, I suppose. I think simply adding another detection mobile detection option for protoss would solve alot protoss still qqing that their observer actually reqires tech lol you only need a robotics thats not the end of the world... in fact getting an observer is alot cheaper than getting a raven, yeah sure there are scans, but you have a opportunity cost of 240 minerals on every scan you use, plus 150 for oc and 2 scvs you cant build whilst getting your oc and let's face it observers are by far the best unit in the game they are invisible, really cheap since the last patch and can detect invisible units, if anything observers are too good. a protoss qqing about unit detection and scouting... I can't believe it. Yeah, observers are really cheap. Getting a raven for detection only, or even an overseeer, is quite costly compared to an observer. The point is the tech route.
If you don't have a robo and DT's or banshees hit you, you're done, in fact, it might be related to the colossus overuse. Many people get a robo simply because they need that observer and can then switch to colossi.
With Terran if you scout a building dark shrine or something like that you can always save a scan while you get a raven out. With zerg, all you need to do is be on lair tech really. If you went stargate as protoss it could be tricky, which is probably why many players opt to go for the colossus, it also opens up the observer path.
Personally, my preferred way is going stargate, but when I see they don't have a lot of gas-heavy T1 units I'll go robo just because of the dt or banshee chance that can really screw you up if you don't have detection.
What I think would be cool is that a nexus for 100 (75? 50 Maybe requiring a twilight council?) energy could target a pylon and basically grand complete detector sight within its matrix, this would make a 4gate some-what too powerful (or perhaps interesting?) too though, as you no longer need a spotter to warp into their base. I'd take this in place of the observer cost-reduce.
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although artosis and idra are very clear that change in maps may make this irrelevant. i will emphasize that it probably will. everyone knew at the beginning of beta the maps were way too small.
even if you look at history of bw, the maps got bigger. for a multitude of reasons such as viewability....etc etc.
so i would wait and see. but if history and my gut instinct serves me correct. zerg should be very fine when the maps get bigger.
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On February 05 2011 19:29 ensis wrote:
hey, if they really give us a short overview of what the proplayers down there are really thinking, this could be awesome.
Most Koreans will never really say anything more than "my race feels really hard to play now, but I'll practice hard and do better" though. The absolute worst we heard from a Koran so far is "I might change my race in the future". Even most western pro and semi-pro gamers never really talk a lot about it in public (Ret for example). In fact, one would think that there's a reason for that.
I don't think it's right to drag other players' names in the show and talk about "what they're really thinking about it" based on private conversations they've had previously. If progamers wanted to talk about it, they would talk about it themselves. But the fact is, they don't.
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I think maps are more important then any other single thing when talking about balance. I think will see a big change in protoss and terran strategies after GSL introduces all the new bigs maps, but somehow I feel zerg will not change than much.
When we get to see long big macro games and zerg doesn't need to constantly produce units and can just poke and harass here and there using it's units mobility advantage. This will lead to opponents having to be overly defensive and that will leave the choice of engagement in the hands of the zerg player. A zerg's ability to re-macro his army in a matter of second will be the deciding factor in these big maps.
Anyway this is all theory and speculation as we are yet to see high level players go in to long macro games of these big maps. So what do you guys think? Will we see zergs dominating on the big maps or are there things the other races can exploit/use to their advantage to come out on top?
ps. Artosis, we love you  Here is a little funny moment from the video...
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/K55S5.jpg)
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I just watched the show and found it quite insightful and for the most part well-informed.
However, I can't help but think that it would be far more entertaining if they could sometimes disagree and argue the points; it seems to me that IdrA and Artosis are on the same page with a lot of their thoughts and as they say about reality TV - "there is no excitement without conflict".
Though, maybe it's just an isolated issue since the Colossus does seem like an easy subject to reach consensus on; we'll have to wait and see what future talks are like.
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On February 05 2011 22:46 SplashbackFerret wrote:
and as they say about reality TV - "there is no excitement without conflict".
thats definitely not what this show needs.
it's not for entertainment. it's for insight and information.
(most of all it's just an opinion. something alot of people in this thread seem to have an issue with)
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Hyrule19035 Posts
Glad to see this back. I really enjoyed the first episode :D
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On February 05 2011 12:07 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 11:35 catabowl wrote:
Infestors might be the way to go in ZvP. I haven't seen to many games though. Fungal growth does stop the colossus micro away... but if u go Infestors you will lose out on corruptors.
I think the key is the forcefield... Zerg has no way to deal with a force field/ collossus attack.
I have two suggestions: First, would be to make it where if the collossus attack can splash and hit the force field. If it hits it two or three times, the force field "blows" up. A drawback is that it might change TvP match up too.
Second, if a forcefield is cast on Creep, the force field time is cut in half? That might help a zerg out a little This would nerf protoss 6 gate timing against muta play to oblivion. Remember in gsl 2 or 3, Toss had like 25% win rate against zerg due to the muta/ling build that no toss really know to how counter until 6 gate timing came out. Also people have to realize sentry are expensive. Those things are 100 gas each.
I am interested on how this is true. Can you elaborate more on the scenario and which one you are refuting?
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I like the general concept of the show, but the execution is wanting. Obviously first episode won't have things figured out, so hope to see improvements. Needs a bit more production (transitions, a more appropriate "set" etc), or perhaps a format switch. Would work particularly great as a podcast or some such thing.
Definitely would support a name change as well. While "Imbalanced" certainly stands out, having a loaded title like that seems counter-productive.
Hope to watch the show develop over time.
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On February 06 2011 00:17 KingVietKong wrote:
Hope to watch the show develop over time.
Me too, and I think that's what will happen.
They seem really open to the community opinions and suggestions.
Hopefully, it will only get better :}
//tx
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God when I saw this I really hopped Sid was doing imbalanced back for SC2. But nah just two guys who can't stand the fact that the game is still develloping. I'm sad
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On February 04 2011 22:59 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 22:49 roadrunner343 wrote:
@ Rabiator
I think you are missing the point. Core units are fine. Their point is, that when PvP armies clash, the one with the most colossus wins. It's basically a rush to colossus and it is the determining factor in the game. Like the pointed out, PvT there is a fine balance. PvZ it is much harder to deal with.
Also, they never said that was imbalanced for certain (Though Idra certainly feels that way) but they feel it may be too strong. Like they said, there is a difference between broken and extremely powerful units. So their main point was PvP? Is that why they spend most of the time talking about ZvP? Having one "core unit" in a race does NOT make that unit imbalanced simply because a unit like the Colossus never walks alone (or it dies quickly).
"core" units are Zerglings/Roach, Zealots/Stalker, and Marines/Marauder... units that make up the core of your army. Colossus are specialized, tier 3, end game units. The fact that they are being utilized as a core unit is their point.
I'm not crying imbalance, I'm just saying it leads to boring games where every match up is mass colossus.
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As soon as i saw that IdrA was in it i was sure this thread and any other related to this vid would be a huge whine/troll fest. :p
My opinion now:
As zerg i almost stopped playing SC2, games are quite dull/boring to me.I still watch GSL but even there you can clearly see how zerg sucks compared to P and T.
Mainly due to small maps, zerg very poor scouting abilities and the fact that many of Z units have one purpose only(more or less).So any wrong/lack of scouting will cost you the game.
people laughing at zerg, mainly arguing with the first 2 GSL in which a Z won.But then again like IdrA said without any balance changes next GSL will be a T and P battle, any zerg will get kicked out easily since now P and T finally figured out the Z huge weaknesses.
I can only hope bigger maps will help Z players.Honestly the early game strats from P and T just crush any zerg player, it will be harder on bigger map though.
Even if it's not 100% balance related Zerg feels to me like a half finished race and looking at the number of complaints here and there it seems i'm not alone to feel that way.
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Its to much focus on zerg, since both art and idra plays it.... tbh i just felt "Terran?! nope moving on to zerg!"
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On February 06 2011 01:58 otm91 wrote:
Its to much focus on zerg, since both art and idra plays it.... tbh i just felt "Terran?! nope moving on to zerg!"
Maybe because Z is quite behind T and P when it comes to "high level play" TM Artosis
:p
Even if i'm a very very average level player i agree 200% with IdrA, in next GSL Z suckyness will shine.
Only hope is with the bigger maps...
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On February 05 2011 22:55 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 22:46 SplashbackFerret wrote:
and as they say about reality TV - "there is no excitement without conflict". thats definitely not what this show needs. it's not for entertainment. it's for insight and information. (most of all it's just an opinion. something alot of people in this thread seem to have an issue with)
Actually, not for entertainment but just general feeling of the show. It's like when writing an essay, you don't just prove your point, you have to prove that the counterpoint is either somewhat viable as well, or ridiculous. Without the point-counterpoint, and i mean this strictly by having the two races have a present "pro" or "respected community member" for that race. Talking about ZvP is all well and fun, but if thats the article of your show, I think trying to have a Z and P is best for having the "give and take" aspect of a real debatable issue.
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I think that this show is a good idea and the fact that it generated such a strong response (both positive and negative) from the community.
Useful criticism would be for Artosis or IdrA to analyze and point out how the strategy may be over/underpowered by analyzing pro level games, to which they have ready access to.
If they had practical , in-match evidence, it would be more determinable of an argument and not generate authority based arguments.
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You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice
Obtuse? Obtuse?!?!? Thats it two months in solitary!
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Ok, after watching : roach is fine, colossus is imba.
...wait, wat?
scissors OP, rock is fine. -paper.
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On February 06 2011 00:17 KingVietKong wrote:
I like the general concept of the show, but the execution is wanting. Obviously first episode won't have things figured out, so hope to see improvements. Needs a bit more production (transitions, a more appropriate "set" etc), or perhaps a format switch. Would work particularly great as a podcast or some such thing.
Definitely would support a name change as well. While "Imbalanced" certainly stands out, having a loaded title like that seems counter-productive.
Hope to watch the show develop over time.
What are Artosis and IdrA actually doing another one? I thought they would give up after the amount of B.S. they got after this one.
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