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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
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On February 03 2011 09:49 Skyze wrote:
While I respect Artosis/Idra as players, when they talk about imbalances, it causes a major shitstorm for the whole non-korean/TL community afterwards.
Basically, everyone takes what they say like its the bible, and we have to put up with it for the next 3-4 months until smart korean players figure out its not that bad.
So, im not really looking forward to the aftermath of this.. I can expect another 50+ people in ladder saying "You only won because im zerg and zerg blows" after I beat them for the next 2 weeks. I will also mention I play random too, and ive played about 50 zerg games at 2800+ diamond (before masters came out) and I had no issues other than my own mistakes. Its hard, sure, but its not unwinnable like people try to proclaim it is.
If people would just spend more time analyzing replays and understanding why they lost, instead of instantly saying the "I" word or proclaiming something is OVERPOWERED.. we would all be better off.. Clearly, in the GSL we have a nice distribution of all 3 races, every matchup is winnable, theres no insta-win like in certain periods of BW and WC3 had in the past.. No one should use imbalance as the blame of their losses at this stage in the game. The whole conversation just stirs up unnecessary controversy really, let blizzard do their job and if something is truely bad, they will fix it.
I do believe you're over thinking the show they are running and it's rammifications. For starters if people go ranting about imbalance on these forums I've always seen the moderators lock the post if there is nothing tangable along with it. Obviously citing this show and going on a rant wouldn't be tanagable evidence or much thought...so it'd probably just get locked So if I were you I would'nt worry to much about it..blizzard forums are nothing but balance complaints already 90% of the time so this show won't change much there.
As far as the show itself goes, I think it's a good idea. Also I'd imagine their entire focus will not be on ZvX even though some of you are thinking it right now. It's common knowledge that at this time, there is some feelings in the pro scene that zerg may be a little UP in the early and late games in ZvT and ZvP. So sure there is a decent chance some of their early shows may be somewhat zerg oriented. That's not to say they wont hit things such as they touched on early in the show like the match up of TvP in the early game.
TLDR I would wait and see how the show developes before anyone goes freaking out about it.
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On February 03 2011 09:49 Skyze wrote:
While I respect Artosis/Idra as players, when they talk about imbalances, it causes a major shitstorm for the whole non-korean/TL community afterwards.
Basically, everyone takes what they say like its the bible, and we have to put up with it for the next 3-4 months until smart korean players figure out its not that bad.
Did you just say "well you shouldn't take the word of pro players seriously unless they are smart koreans?" Basically you see Idra/Artosis as idiot zergs who never have once tried to figure out new strats to counter stuff?
They have probably been trying for weeks, along with a frustrated Ret and NesTea and others, and their show will probably prompt other zergs to think about the stronger units (like colossi), and get them to try to build around countering this powerful unit.
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This show would be great is the hosts were 1 toss 1 terran and 1 zerg, where they can truly debate about imbalance. 2 Zerg players talking about imbalanced will tend to be biased.
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Just because someone plays a certain race primarily does not mean they are ignorant of the other races. They may not know the subtle nuances of their off-race counter part, but that is where guests and viewer participation comes into play. Regardless, these two guys probably know the game as good as anyone else currently playing if not better.
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On February 06 2011 07:17 hinnolinn wrote:
Kind of disappointed that Chill seems to have misrepresented this show while casting in order to have a speaking point.
This show misrepresented this show pretending to be a show about balance. So I'm not too broken up about Chill misquoting it.
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On February 03 2011 11:42 Rodregeus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 10:30 blade55555 wrote:On February 03 2011 10:27 prOxi.swAMi wrote:
"Zerg are so underpowered, nerf terran!"
*Zergs dominate GSL*
"You can't say Zerg are fine just because they won GSLs!"
*Terrans dominate GSL*
"OMG, Terran is raping GSL, look how many terrans! Clearly overpowered! There's no zerg representation!"
OK Zerg users, spell it out for us. Are we, or are we not allowed to infer balance conclusions from GSLs? Because once upon a time, we weren't allowed. But now that's what you're doing. Is it because it's convenient to do so now?
So transparent. I think you have something wrong "zergs dominate GSL" is completely wrong. Winning GSL and dominating are completely different. GSL1, Fruitdealer didnt' even "dominate" (almost lost vs TOP) every other zerg was out by ro16 I believe? GSL2 Nestea dominated through almost the entire GSL not zergs just nestea. GSL3 again zergs didn't dominate. As far as I know zergs have never "dominated" a GSL just a zerg has won it twice, winning a GSL and dominating are completely different ^^ I would just like to point out, That in a game with 3 races. Zerg has won exactly 50% of GSL finals. Along with the fact that zerg has been the least represented from the start, by about half that of Terran. Making their base chance at winning the GSL much slimmer than terrans. Even if the game was perfectly balanced, and GSL had 50% terrans, 25% Zerg and 25% protoss, Terran would still be more likely to win as a race because there are more there to begin with. Basically, less Zergs manage to beat out more terrans, for 50% of GSL wins in a game with 3 races. I hardly think that shows that zerg is UP at all. :/ It's all just carry over from beta, the game has changed since then.
How can people make arguments like this? :s
is it a lack of understanding of statistics, general stupidity, bias, trolling or a combination of these?
Zerg has won 50% even though there are fewer zergs overall!
There are a lot of terran in the later stages!
Herp derp!
None of these statistics matter when the game is changing as fast as it is and there are still very very big skill gaps even inside code S, not to mention code a or other big tournaments.
Sure, now and then good players lose to players that are supposed to be worse but it is always one of three thing:
1) bad maps
2) cheese that wasn't prepared for
3) the supposed bad players simply playing better than the 'good' player
None of these issues really show any sort of imbalances.
There really is no point at all arguing races are overpowered, when there really isn't any way of knowing how the meta game might change tomorrow.
Instead people should be pointing out things that make the game boring, frustrating and just less fun in general. And this imo is exactly what  Artosis and IdrA are doing in this video. The entire protoss race revolves around the collosus and that makes for predictable games, and make it a lot less fun to both view and play. That was actually their point in this video and anyone actually viewing before just unleashing the shitstorm would have seen that.
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On February 06 2011 03:09 Schamus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 22:55 MavercK wrote:On February 05 2011 22:46 SplashbackFerret wrote:
and as they say about reality TV - "there is no excitement without conflict". thats definitely not what this show needs. it's not for entertainment. it's for insight and information. (most of all it's just an opinion. something alot of people in this thread seem to have an issue with) Actually, not for entertainment but just general feeling of the show. It's like when writing an essay, you don't just prove your point, you have to prove that the counterpoint is either somewhat viable as well, or ridiculous. Without the point-counterpoint, and i mean this strictly by having the two races have a present "pro" or "respected community member" for that race. Talking about ZvP is all well and fun, but if thats the article of your show, I think trying to have a Z and P is best for having the "give and take" aspect of a real debatable issue.
I think you've adequately summed up a good part of the intent behind my suggestion that I didn't express well enough.
"I agree and here's why you're right" needs to be mixed in with some "I disagree and here's why" and "I agree but for different reasons" to create a balanced opinion-forming diet.
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When is episode 2 artosis? ;D
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Artosis and Idra need to speak at more even volume levels. Grack is too quiet while artosis has a nice projecting voice.
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Making bunker salvaging take as long as rooting a spine crawler and making warp gate research cost more and/or take longer would help Z early game not be so 'omg I'm so close to dying' every game.
Alternatively, buffing zerglings so they're as comparatively powerful as they were in SC1. Currently they're little more than fast, low-hp meat shields.
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about the whole corruptor/collosus discussion:
the fact that the zerg kinda has a 300 supply army vs the protoss 200, making correct unit comp is alot harder. would this be something that is making the colosus seem more powerful than it is?
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I think the power of the colossus is fine. It's a fragile hard-hitting unit that really requires backup. That's fine. It's supposed to be effective at what it does.
I think the issue with the colossus is just that its too fast (and/or hydras too slow). If you have hydras in your zerg army, you do not have more mobility than the protoss army. No, you just don't. Hydras move the same as Colossus offcreep, and Colossus/Stalker can even ignore cliffs. And yet the protoss ground army can wipe the floor with the zerg ground army. That doesn't seem right.
There should be a balance of mobility and power, and right now the zerg ground army is strictly worse than the protoss ground army. Not more mobile. Not more powerful.
And personally I find it disturbing that the Colossus is really only balanced in PvT, where terrans have an absurdly ranged AtA unit. Of course the other matchups have issues with colossus (especially PvP). Why is this surprising to anybody?
On February 06 2011 16:24 Obaten wrote:
Artosis and Idra need to speak at more even volume levels. Grack is too quiet while artosis has a nice projecting voice.
Yes I agree their mic levels were quite imbalanced.
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As a protoss player I just feel afraid when people talk about nerfing colossus. There have been so many nerfs to protoss already. As the game is now it seems like I have to survive off of force fields or allin/cheese in the early game just to not loose vs the tier1 and 1.5 units of the other races. I get my 2nd colossus out and I let out a sigh of relief.
I held on, spent my 800 gas to get them out with the range upgrade and now the opposing player actually has to fear my army. When I have conversations with terran or zerg players they always say things like "get storm" or "get charge" I honestly don't feel like most terran or zerg players appreciate how extremely expensive and untimely most protoss tech options are. Basically what I'm getting to, is that without the really strong colossus, Toss would be screwed. If we don't go robo early, we don't have obs. So their are things like burrow and banshees that will just destroy us. Also, obs are extremely important to scouting. Toss has to know his opponents tech paths and composition to win. We have to know if zerg is going hydras,mutas, or mass roach ling. We have to know if terran is going MM or something else like marine tank / mech-thors/ raven timing attacks/ banshees ect. If they are using a build that required detection we have to have obs. Building a robo then an obs after they already have banshees out would be painful. Many probes will die. If one tries to rely on cannons this is like saying to the other race,"Take whatever expo's you want, I won't be moving out for at least 2 minutes"
I constantly hear people who don't play protoss say "it's the easiest race" If you agree with that sentiment I'd like you to consider the following:
#1 Toss is the only race that relies on caster (sentries/FF) in the early game to stay alive in standard macro games. This adds a degree of difficulty. I'm sure any decent toss can tell you he's lost plenty of games because of 1 misplaced FF. I know I have!
#2 Toss is the only race that has to move its screen to Macro units. We have to pull the screen away from a battle (unless a pylon happens to be in view ) to make units, we have to click to make and place each and every gateway unit as well. Units that are warped in have to be rallied every time they start warping.
Any units that don't come from a gateway should be crono'd. (I understand that warping in anywhere there is a pylon is awesome. I'm not arguing that and I'm not complaining about the mechanic. I'm simply pointing out the extra complications to toss mechanics the other races don't seem to fully understand or appreciate.)
We can't just hold 5s and make 10 stalkers. I know people always say stupid things like "Then don't make warp gates, derp derp" but toss is designed around using warpgates. It is absolutely necessary to use them to keep up with unit production. Which leads me to the next point.
3# "Toss can make a bunch of units instantly whenever they need them". No we can't! Warp gates have these things called "cool downs" that limit how often we can warp in. It means that we cannot macro any faster than the other races. If all of my warp gates are off cool down, it's probably because my macro has slipped. (Many times due to #1, in my case, and trying to have good FF and micro while flipping your screen away every time you need to macro isn't easy on my primitive brain) Late game when I have 20 warp gates is different, obviously then Toss can re-max very quickly. But the rest of the time, warp gate cool down restricts how much toss can macro. It's not instant, it's not anytime we want, and contrary to popular belief our units aren't free. In fact for cost effectiveness zealots and stalkers are not amazing compared to MM or roach ling. Zealots are slow for a melee unit, charge is very expensive and a different tech path than the required obs. Stalkers don't have great dps for what they cost and they benefit the least from +1 upgrades because of their low rate of fire (compared to mm/stim) and the fact that by comparison roaches get +2 per upgrade.
I'm fine with all of this ,I'm not complaining. I just want people to please stop acting like toss is easy mode, units are instant and cheap, and our upgrades or tech options can just happen when we decide to "get this" Toss is not easy mode race. I totally agree that 4gating probably has the lowest skill to power ratio of any strategy in the game but I'm talking about real toss players. Macro toss, safe standard toss.
Protoss mechanics are not easy they are not cheap. No more so than the other races. Sure any noob can 4gate all in, into diamond. The race is easy to learn but EXTREMELY difficult to master and requires amazing multitasking to warp in, do the required micro, and crono effectively.
Please, realize that the Colossus are really strong because we NEED them to be. Not because they are just overpowered. I totally agree that it is bad for the game how often every protoss matchup seems to revolve around them. But any talk of nerfing them must be accompanied by what has to be buffed to make up for it. Immortals are good early game but they are terrible in the mid/ late game as a massable units. Too many things trash them like any air, ling, hydra, marine, stimmed marauders, emp, mass tanks, thor strike cannon ect. Storm is awesome but the research time and cost to get storm, charge up templar energy, or get amulet would put toss in dangerous waters in the early part of mid game. Because even if colossus didn't exist, toss would still HAVE to get obs pretty early in any safe standard build. Then we would have to get twilight, templar archive, research storm, and make templars which is an insane amount of gas. Then after every battle or skirmish we'd have to replace the templars who's energy was used up, so we can be ready for the next battle, and make the left over HT into archons, while making sure to use the used up HT for archons, not the full energy HT's ( I think archons are crappy units, because they have 2 range and are slow moving) Keep in mind also the gas cost of sentries and stalkers to survive to that point. It would also force protoss to rely on 1 spellcaster early game and then 2 spellcasters mid to late game.
So go ahead blizzard, nerf colossus if you feel they or overpowerd, or if you just don't want them to be crucial in every matchup. But you MUST buff something else if you don't want to break the protoss race. What is that something else? How many other balance issues will arise from it? These questions are very important to address in such a discussion.
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On February 06 2011 18:49 greycubed wrote:
Making bunker salvaging take as long as rooting a spine crawler and making warp gate research cost more and/or take longer would help Z early game not be so 'omg I'm so close to dying' every game.
Alternatively, buffing zerglings so they're as comparatively powerful as they were in SC1. Currently they're little more than fast, low-hp meat shields.
buffing lings would make them even more powerful if you let slip a run-by, it would also really strengthen early game zerg cheese
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Some of these comments and arguments are about totally different issues that were not even brought up in this video. *facepalm*
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On February 07 2011 04:04 Reborn8u wrote:
As a protoss player I just feel afraid when people talk about nerfing colossus. There have been so many nerfs to protoss already. As the game is now it seems like I have to survive off of force fields or allin/cheese in the early game just to not loose vs the tier1 and 1.5 units of the other races. I get my 2nd colossus out and I let out a sigh of relief.
I held on, spent my 800 gas to get them out with the range upgrade and now the opposing player actually has to fear my army. When I have conversations with terran or zerg players they always say things like "get storm" or "get charge" I honestly don't feel like most terran or zerg players appreciate how extremely expensive and untimely most protoss tech options are. Basically what I'm getting to, is that without the really strong colossus, Toss would be screwed. If we don't go robo early, we don't have obs. So their are things like burrow and banshees that will just destroy us. Also, obs are extremely important to scouting. Toss has to know his opponents tech paths and composition to win. We have to know if zerg is going hydras,mutas, or mass roach ling. We have to know if terran is going MM or something else like marine tank / mech-thors/ raven timing attacks/ banshees ect. If they are using a build that required detection we have to have obs. Building a robo then an obs after they already have banshees out would be painful. Many probes will die. If one tries to rely on cannons this is like saying to the other race,"Take whatever expo's you want, I won't be moving out for at least 2 minutes"
I constantly hear people who don't play protoss say "it's the easiest race" If you agree with that sentiment I'd like you to consider the following:
#1 Toss is the only race that relies on caster (sentries/FF) in the early game to stay alive in standard macro games. This adds a degree of difficulty. I'm sure any decent toss can tell you he's lost plenty of games because of 1 misplaced FF. I know I have!
#2 Toss is the only race that has to move its screen to Macro units. We have to pull the screen away from a battle (unless a pylon happens to be in view ) to make units, we have to click to make and place each and every gateway unit as well. Units that are warped in have to be rallied every time they start warping.
Any units that don't come from a gateway should be crono'd. (I understand that warping in anywhere there is a pylon is awesome. I'm not arguing that and I'm not complaining about the mechanic. I'm simply pointing out the extra complications to toss mechanics the other races don't seem to fully understand or appreciate.)
We can't just hold 5s and make 10 stalkers. I know people always say stupid things like "Then don't make warp gates, derp derp" but toss is designed around using warpgates. It is absolutely necessary to use them to keep up with unit production. Which leads me to the next point.
3# "Toss can make a bunch of units instantly whenever they need them". No we can't! Warp gates have these things called "cool downs" that limit how often we can warp in. It means that we cannot macro any faster than the other races. If all of my warp gates are off cool down, it's probably because my macro has slipped. (Many times due to #1, in my case, and trying to have good FF and micro while flipping your screen away every time you need to macro isn't easy on my primitive brain) Late game when I have 20 warp gates is different, obviously then Toss can re-max very quickly. But the rest of the time, warp gate cool down restricts how much toss can macro. It's not instant, it's not anytime we want, and contrary to popular belief our units aren't free. In fact for cost effectiveness zealots and stalkers are not amazing compared to MM or roach ling. Zealots are slow for a melee unit, charge is very expensive and a different tech path than the required obs. Stalkers don't have great dps for what they cost and they benefit the least from +1 upgrades because of their low rate of fire (compared to mm/stim) and the fact that by comparison roaches get +2 per upgrade.
I'm fine with all of this ,I'm not complaining. I just want people to please stop acting like toss is easy mode, units are instant and cheap, and our upgrades or tech options can just happen when we decide to "get this" Toss is not easy mode race. I totally agree that 4gating probably has the lowest skill to power ratio of any strategy in the game but I'm talking about real toss players. Macro toss, safe standard toss.
Protoss mechanics are not easy they are not cheap. No more so than the other races. Sure any noob can 4gate all in, into diamond. The race is easy to learn but EXTREMELY difficult to master and requires amazing multitasking to warp in, do the required micro, and crono effectively.
Please, realize that the Colossus are really strong because we NEED them to be. Not because they are just overpowered. I totally agree that it is bad for the game how often every protoss matchup seems to revolve around them. But any talk of nerfing them must be accompanied by what has to be buffed to make up for it. Immortals are good early game but they are terrible in the mid/ late game as a massable units. Too many things trash them like any air, ling, hydra, marine, stimmed marauders, emp, mass tanks, thor strike cannon ect. Storm is awesome but the research time and cost to get storm, charge up templar energy, or get amulet would put toss in dangerous waters in the early part of mid game. Because even if colossus didn't exist, toss would still HAVE to get obs pretty early in any safe standard build. Then we would have to get twilight, templar archive, research storm, and make templars which is an insane amount of gas. Then after every battle or skirmish we'd have to replace the templars who's energy was used up, so we can be ready for the next battle, and make the left over HT into archons ( I think archons are crappy units, because they have 2 range and are slow moving) Keep in mind also the gas cost of sentries and stalkers to survive to that point. It would also force protoss to rely on 1 spellcaster early game and then 2 spellcasters mid to late game.
So go ahead blizzard, nerf colossus if you feel they or overpowerd, or if you just don't want them to be crucial in every matchup. But you MUST buff something else if you don't want to break the protoss race. What is that something else? How many other balance issues will arise from it? These questions are very important to address in such a discussion.
While your points are valid for low level play, they specifically say they are talking about pro-level balance. They are not saying zerg can't stop collosus because spawn larva is hard to remember. Yes, playing starcraft requires some mechanics, but that it not what is determining who wins at the highest levels (although some pros still don't quite yet have the best mechanics). So, I don't think this post really is a valid response to their show
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On February 07 2011 04:04 Reborn8u wrote:
#1 Toss is the only race that relies on caster (sentries/FF) in the early game to stay alive in standard macro games. This adds a degree of difficulty. I'm sure any decent toss can tell you he's lost plenty of games because of 1 misplaced FF. I know I have!
Just saw that quote... Yet you neglect to inform us that toss users win games simply on ff's. For any master level toss it is much easier to lay down efficient and effective ff's than it is to lay down bad ones. You should be able to easily win more games by force field than lose them.
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EPT
