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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
All right, I confess- I half expected this to be a 30 minute QQ session. Mmk, maybe a bit more than half. But I watched/listened to the whole thing regardless, and I actually have to say that it was really well thought out and I agreed with most of the points that were made. For everyone who says that Idra's points can't be taken as valid since he QQs all the time on his stream anyways, you have to understand- shortly after a game you make falsified inbalance judgement. You haven't had time to think about, you haven't had time to discuss it, and you're pissed off about losing. However, when you're making a show like this, you have time to think about your points, discuss them with another high level player, you begin rounding out a good, solid argument filled with justified points. So I find this to be a pretty reliable source on the state of the game and balance.
With that out of the way, I personally wouldn't call Collosi IMBALANCED. While the definition of imbalanced may differ from person to person, I see it as one race/unit having a gamebreaking advantage that requires an immense amount of skill from the opposite party to overcome. Roaches were like that, but I see Collosi as merely being 'broken'. They are very difficult to deal with as zerg, but not to the point that they can be considered unfair. In addition, they're broken in pvp not because of balance issues, but just because they lead to only one style of play in pvp. It also happens to be a very bland style of play.
So while I don't think the collosi is gamebreakingly 'imbalanced', I do think that a nerf to collosi or a mechanic change would improve Protoss state drastically.
Perhaps you should rename your show from 'imbalance' to 'minor-medium annoyances that slightly decrease the enjoyment of the game on a pro level'. It might quell some of the flamers in this thread.
Lol. I kid.
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Fantastic show Artosis! I love how so many people are finding it controversial, this will become quite interesting 
Guest appearances from some other people would be nice too, I like seeing you and Idra with every episode, but 2 people seems alittle low.
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When is the next episode coming out?
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awesome show, dont see a lot of these in depth discussion shows around 
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I liked it alot. Sure it was a little biased as they are zerg players (artosis is 50/50), but alot of their arguements made sense. Zerg imo needs a unit that can dictate the pace of the game and makes T and P plan around it. Much like tanks or collusus. That just my opinion tho.
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Absolutely love the idea. I'm just curious how often you guys plan on doing this? Something along the lines of State of the Game where it's a weekly happening? Or more along the lines of "as needed?"
If it's been previously stated feel free to say so.
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Well done by not just complaining, but having a decent argument about the colossus. Sure its a little zerg biased because they loves their zerg, but I feel like I pretty much agree with what they said.
Reasoned discourse ftw.
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What about the possibility of Infestor mind probe on the colossus? I am not sure about the range, and my micro is most likely not up to being able to probe multiple colossus at the same time, but since this is a pro-level balance discussion... ?
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On February 05 2011 01:55 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 01:43 Severedevil wrote:On February 05 2011 00:53 sob3k wrote:On February 05 2011 00:47 Schamus wrote:
I think my biggest gripe with the video was really what Idra said, basically stating that Zerg's ground army is hurt by making corrupters... so is the Terran army by making vikings....
And other people are stating that FF is ruining the zerg army...Guess what. It does the same for the terran army too, since vikings arent that great after the colossus is dead. So i'm not exactly sure how it's entirely OP against Zerg, but perfectly balanced for terran. They said why right in the video. Vikings are much better against collossi than corruptors. I disagree. Corruptors have modestly more DPS vs. Colossi (if you're using Corrupt) than do Vikings, and Corruptors have double the durability. That's enough to make up for the lesser range. Vikings do: 12 dps Vikings have: 9 range Vikings cost: 150 minerals, 75 gas Vikings have: 125 hp Corruptors do: 10.8 dps Corruptors have: 6 range Corruptors cost: 150 minerals, 100 gas Corruptors have: 200 hp Even with Corruption (20% more damage) Corruptors only do 12.96 dps. That's only .96 more DPS with a CD, while costing more, having less range, taking roughly the same time to build. The only plus is their health and (slightly better) mobility. Vikings are better. Without question.
Viking armor: 0
Corruptor armor: 2
Viking heals = SCV repair = slow and useless in battle
Corruptor heals = transfuse = instant and useable in battle with some micro
Corruptor speed = 2.9531
Colossus speed = 2.25
It isnt that easy to make a final judgment on the "Corruptor vs Viking" comparison and most certainly you need to take ALL STATS into account and not simply the ones that you like. Corruptors might have less dps, but they can take A LOT more damage than a Viking can AND they are capable of catching up with a Colossus, so they are up to the job.
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@rmse17 : Mind control is an option indeed, but it's too easy to get rid of. Infestors cost an insane amount of gas which you can't use for the rest of your army then, and it's then too weak. But yeah, if you time it well and with a good positionning it could help, gotta pull it off though.
That's the whole idea of zerg for me - you have to pull things off to make it work. Whereas P/T sort of just go forward with a death ball (well, in the context of an army fight I mean).
[Edit] @above : The range is the biggest factor though. The rest is fairly unimportant, vikings simply outrange anything in the protoss arsenal apart from colossus themselves which obviously arent a factor vs vikings. And carriers, but well, that's another story. So a protoss can't engage a terran easily. While vs zerg, your corruptors can only attack the colossi by making themselves vulnerable to attacks as well. Whole other world.
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I think it would be a cool change if colossi had to be in a sort of seiged mode to take advantage of their thermal lance upgrade
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On February 05 2011 08:53 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 07:10 sleepingdog wrote:On February 05 2011 02:26 MorroW wrote:On February 04 2011 11:02 Spekulatius wrote:
I would LOVE to actually see some solutions to the mentioned balance issues.
nerf colosus/high templar/force field buff everything else in midgame (what i mean by that is that you cant straight up buff zealot cause then early game is imbalanced, u have to think out some fancy upgrade for zealots past charge to make it not-useless past early game) i dont talk about extreme nerfs or buffs here. small ones are enough to give more options i just want it to be possible for a protoss to fight a zerg without abusing colosus or FF like a mad man. but whenever they dont have these 2 key things zealots/stalkers etc are complete trash compared to my hydra roach combo in zvt u have tons of choices how you want to battle and make ur unit compositions, most things work great. but as soon as protoss enters mid/late game u have to sit there and only focus on colosus and FF cause thats way better than everything else colossus is pretty much the most bullshit unit for the cost inthe game right now. it deals tons of damage, sick range, really fast and mobile, long sight range and sees up cliffs. tank: doesnt have long sight and its not mobile at all ultralisk: melee, not as mobile thor: not as much range, lot less mobile, no splash to ground all of them cost similar food cost (except tank) but yet the colosus is still alot better than the rest but then go and compare zealot/stalker to marauder/rine or hydra/roach. then toss has no chanse at all. toss has no chance to fight low tier vs low tier, and ithink thats a problem (i dont talk about earlygame) I really like the idea of buffing protoss core stuff and nerfing their fancy stuff....what do you ppl think about giving stalkers +2 instead of +1 for each attack-upgrade? While nerfing the said fancy stuff of course (dunno how). On zealots this can't work because they would be OP against terran, I suppose. I think simply adding another detection mobile detection option for protoss would solve alot
protoss still qqing that their observer actually reqires tech lol
you only need a robotics thats not the end of the world... in fact getting an observer is alot cheaper than getting a raven, yeah sure there are scans, but you have a opportunity cost of 240 minerals on every scan you use, plus 150 for oc and 2 scvs you cant build whilst getting your oc
and let's face it observers are by far the best unit in the game
they are invisible, really cheap since the last patch and can detect invisible units, if anything observers are too good. a protoss qqing about unit detection and scouting... I can't believe it.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
Siege tanks needs to be made decent again. We dont care about hp we need dmg like in BW!. I stopped playing SC2 because of the siege tanks being so weak.
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Idra and Arthosis, great show!
Its always funny to see Terrans hate talking about imbalance. Obviously, you don't want things to change when it gives you an advantage.
Collisi are very strong indeed, and the fact that the whole game evolves around that unit no matter the MU pretty much indicates it might be tweaked a bit.
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The title of the video is sorta deceptive to be honest, but if you actually watched the video (which I doubt some of you did) it's very informative and gave me a whole new perspective. Perhaps "Imbalanced" instead of Imbalanced would have been a better title.
Sure Artosis and IdrA might be biased, atleast alittle bit. Does that mean they can't properly discuss certain aspects of the game and share that with people? I never had the feeling they were forcing their opinion on me. They gave us their perspective and it's up to us to discuss that. You people make it sound like the world is falling apart, because Idra/Artosis are giving their view on things. I don't see why they should invite other people to make their show more credible. Sure, it'd make it more awesome, but I'm genuinely interested about what they think. Whether or not I agree is a completely different matter.
On the topic of the Collosi I thought their conclussion was it might be a too dominant unit for Protoss and dominating match ups because of it. They highlighted some issues that might be the cause as to why that unit is so dominant currently. If as Zerg your entire gameplan revolves around how to deal with Collosi it does seem the unit might have a too prominent roll. Does the Collosi make Protoss play too 1 dimensional and should that be changed and how? Like some people have been discussing to great length here already.
I really liked the episode and I'm looking forward to more. Perhaps use a less controversial title though?
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Has anyone ever wondered about a 5 range colossus +3 with thermal lance? instead of 6 + 3
When they buffed roach range by 1 most people started using them more
Do you think that colossus would be the same way in the negative direction?
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On February 05 2011 16:39 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 01:55 Cranberries wrote:On February 05 2011 01:43 Severedevil wrote:On February 05 2011 00:53 sob3k wrote:On February 05 2011 00:47 Schamus wrote:
I think my biggest gripe with the video was really what Idra said, basically stating that Zerg's ground army is hurt by making corrupters... so is the Terran army by making vikings....
And other people are stating that FF is ruining the zerg army...Guess what. It does the same for the terran army too, since vikings arent that great after the colossus is dead. So i'm not exactly sure how it's entirely OP against Zerg, but perfectly balanced for terran. They said why right in the video. Vikings are much better against collossi than corruptors. I disagree. Corruptors have modestly more DPS vs. Colossi (if you're using Corrupt) than do Vikings, and Corruptors have double the durability. That's enough to make up for the lesser range. Vikings do: 12 dps Vikings have: 9 range Vikings cost: 150 minerals, 75 gas Vikings have: 125 hp Corruptors do: 10.8 dps Corruptors have: 6 range Corruptors cost: 150 minerals, 100 gas Corruptors have: 200 hp Even with Corruption (20% more damage) Corruptors only do 12.96 dps. That's only .96 more DPS with a CD, while costing more, having less range, taking roughly the same time to build. The only plus is their health and (slightly better) mobility. Vikings are better. Without question. Viking armor: 0 Corruptor armor: 2 Viking heals = SCV repair = slow and useless in battle Corruptor heals = transfuse = instant and useable in battle with some micro Corruptor speed = 2.9531 Colossus speed = 2.25 It isnt that easy to make a final judgment on the "Corruptor vs Viking" comparison and most certainly you need to take ALL STATS into account and not simply the ones that you like. Corruptors might have less dps, but they can take A LOT more damage than a Viking can AND they are capable of catching up with a Colossus, so they are up to the job.
sure?
i had alots of 4 corruptor vs 4 viking situation,and with abit of micro(not talkin about fire focus, i talk about more than that)
the vikings win.
the corruptors can win if you use theyr ability wisely
but yet again.
in this situation idra and artosis speaked about was "killing coloxen"
pretty simple,a range of 9 makes vikings p more effective,because the stalkers cant get them without blinking into them (which can take horrible damage)
but a corruptor needs to go so far in,its so dangerous,and if you dont kill the colossi at the end,which happen quite often,its sure because of the range,you cannot kite vikings with corruptors,you can with vikings, that range is important.
i wouldnt say corruptors are inefficient against colossi,they arent. but i have to agree with artosis and idra about that.
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On February 05 2011 06:18 immortlone wrote:colossi share the same range with a zerg ability called "neural parasite." http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Neural_parasitei know it sounds crazy, but i'd love to see some good infestor flanks on the colossi to MC them. IMO, its a more cost efficient solution to deal with colossi. you only need one infestor per colossi (as opposed to multiple corruptors to reach critical mass), it confuses the hell outta the ai, its less colossi attacking your army, and guess what? unlike the slow building spire, it opens the door for Hive tech and leaves YOU in control of how the game will proceed. getting spire tech makes it too obvious for the protoss what to get in response. if nothing else, the protoss army has to either kill the MC'd colossi or the controlling infestors..with a good flank (ie: cliffs or valleys so that stalkers have a harder time reaching them..abuse that 9 range just like the colossi are!) they are caught in between a rock and a hardplace. pro-tip..if they decide to kill the infestor, move the colossi closer to your army and punish them big time for deciding to kill your cheaper infestor which now paid for itself and then some 
The problem with this is that at higher levels players do not stand a chance to neural parasite the collosus, they'll loose the infestor no matter what. As stated in the vid, is good to talk about Balance at the highest level, not at gold-platinum-diamond level. That is nonsense.
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hey, if they really give us a short overview of what the proplayers down there are really thinking, this could be awesome.
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zerg is fine at gsl maps.
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EPT
