So how Financial stable is it being a Progamer in North America? From what I have read on TL there is only 3 real ways a progamer makes money
1. Winning Tournaments: this is something that is very risky and in North America at least not really up par. Most Tournaments even if you win are anywhere from 100- 10,000 dollars.
2. Team Sponsorship/Salary: I am not sure how much a Sponsored team gets paid and I am sure it changes drastically with the team you are on.
3. Coaching: Many Progamers such as Incontrol, Idra, Ret, Inka, all make money coaching and from listening to JP and friends it sounds like Incontrol can make a very decent living off coaching and helping others. Though this takes away from his other gaming duties such as Training.
Every Progamer is different and it's different per team would it be possible to support yourself while on a Progamers salary or benefits whatever they may be? Or do you as a progamer have to find a part time job or even a full time job to support yourself?
While I understand that the love of the game is what is super important. I find that most of the older BW progamers and maybe current SC2 progamers are in there late 20s going on early 30s with the exception of few.
Edit: I mean't in NA not is NA, I am quite ill in the brain.
Coaching seems to be the best bet for making money as a Pro in NA, and being sponsored with a team would be useful too (particular EG, their guys always seem just fine) winning tournaments is definitely not something to count on, maybe if you win you can get some little thing you've wanted for a while, but it wont be paying your bills. i think it would become infinitely more feasible to have a part time job to pay the bills and put food on the table
You COULD train 8+ hours a day for a chance to win max $1,000 every two weeks on a game that may not have much of a future within 2 years and where skill differentials are not clearly defined yet ...
Or... you could get a traditional 9-5/9-6 job with a regular salary and treat SC2 as a game.
Though love of the game is important, it is very difficult to substitute earning potentials in mainstream society. As a student on the other hand...
I don't have any numbers regarding sponsored salaries (they are almost always kept secret by contract), but I'd say with some confidence that being a progamer in the US doesn't make you rich. Enough to survive for some, maybe with an above average income for a select few, but nobody gets rich off gaming.
I'm not aware of every team's salary, but i know that its probably not enough to support them alone. This isn't golf, yet.
Streaming is great, but ad revenue helps more. If you can get alot of people to subscribe to your stream/youtube/whateverVODsites that offer that sort of pay out. You can make some money from it. However it is not enough to completely support you.
Coaching is the day job of the progamers. No i'm not talking about those who are high up in the ladder and start charging for advice. I'm talking about the actual coaches from gosucoaching or a pro team's site that offers coaching.
Tournament prize money isn't important( well it is) , but winning them and/or placing high is more important. Pros need to place high to stay relevant for their team. Most e-team owners know how hard sc2 is, or any competitive game, so they general don't kick you off right away, or maybe at all. Sponsor teams need to have high profile players to get more / keep their sponsors. I've bought Steel series equipment because of EG and Fnatic.
Edit: In my belief you don't go into progaming for the money, thats foolish and will lead to a burnout. You do it for the passion and the love of competition.
It's not financially viable at the moment. I would put my salary up against any pro gamer's (NOTE: in the US only) and likely come out on top. But financial viability isn't the only factor here; it's a dream to do what you love. If you can at least survive playing SC2, it would be a pretty sweet life for a while.
If you're doing it for money, I would say you're on the wrong path. Go to school and get a good job. You'll make considerably more.
Well from what i understand most contract team salaries are kept from public knowledge but the best way to be financially stable is to have a regular job and practice in your off time.
To many people come on this forum with elaborate plans and ideas on how to go pro, but in the end if you have no where to stay and cant feed yourself then you really cant focus on improving at a game.
Just a game-sick kid, with no hopes but one dream, just a mouse and a chair ~~. NA needs a huge boost in the tournament scene like in Korea to become really financially viable. If you just want to do what you love, have fun, hopefully travel the world with friends, it's more than worth it if you ask me. Getting your foot in the door on the other hand...... ehhh a bit more difficult.
Love and passion for the game first, thats the way to succeed. If you go in it for the money, you're approaching pro-gaming with the wrong mentality. The money will come eventually. Hopefully.
On February 02 2011 06:04 echO [W] wrote: Love and passion for the game first, thats the way to succeed. If you go in it for the money, you're approaching pro-gaming with the wrong mentality. They money will come eventually. Hopefully.
Or never come. See 99% of players who attempt to "go pro" for further details.
On February 02 2011 05:55 theBullFrog wrote: Edit: In my belief you don't go into progaming for the money, thats foolish and will lead to a burnout. You do it for the passion and the love of competition.
In my belief, you don't go into progaming for money, passion, or love of competition. You become a progamer if you are a super amazing gosu.
I've heard it repeated here many times, the Progaming life isn't glamorous. At best you might be making more than the average gas station hand unless you're at the very top. You can go in to coaching but that's largely an unproven market and depends entirely on the interest in the game.
I would not know specifically for StarCraft 2, but I know that it's not uncommon for a sponsored pro gamer (every time I read that written as one word, my brain says Programmer...) to never even see any tournament winnings, even if he does win a tournament.
Quite often you will be paid a set salary, which from what I have heard (as has been mentioned above, you are not allowed to disclose your pay quite often, pro gaming contracts can be as dodgy as you like, and you have very little support if it goes horribly wrong) is nothing to shout about at all, at best it sounds like it just beats out minimum wage and you probably get a hardware donation of some kind (or if you or your team is sponsored by, eg, Bose or Intel, you might actually be forced to use their products, at least while attending a tournament)
I have a few friends, and a few neutral aquaintences who are pro gamers, and none of them are doing that much better than the people I know with regular 9-5 jobs, and they do actually work 9-5 as well, if they aren't flat out training then they are coaching or working on other things that bring in some extra money (working fro streaming services, coaching, part-time jobs, etc)
This will probably vary from team to team/sponsor to sponsor, but I have heard from more than one person that in their team, the only person who gets to keep a full tournament winning is the person in their team who is considered 'the best' (or most recognisable, or famous, so your Daigo, or Ryan Hart, or etc for SF, I can't think of any SC2 examples, especially the korean names I know, those guys operate quite differently it seems, what with the provided housing and etc)
Everyone else on the team gets their winnings split between the rest of the team. I am not sure how this works for straight up team games (Gears of War, Counter-Strike, etc) but I suspect the team captain (or best player) would get a larger portion of a win.
If you want to do it without a sponsorship or a team salary though, then get ready for a whole world of working 9-5 just to pay for the frikkin' travel costs to get to all these tournaments. It really is something someone does because they love the game, and that game (or genre) specifically. I know a fair few high level gamers who simply do not game, at all, outside of that one game or genre that they play.
But yeah I am sure other people know a lot more than me, but by the sounds of it you can do quite reasonably, but it will vary between different games and sponsors/teams. It can also end very quickly with you rushing to get a job at McDonalds before your rent payment is due because I have heard a few horror stories about dodgy contracts where you can be let go with zero notice and for no reason.
But hey, if it's your passion and you genuinely have the dedication and mindset to make it work, go for it. You only live once. Worst that can happen is you end up back at square one looking for a 9-5.
Pro-gaming today, in my opinion has the same vibe as professional sports did in the early times, if I remember correctly, professional athletes then did not compete or devote their entire lives to the game, they still had regular jobs and such because the money was not there yet for it to be a full time job.
I feel that right now that is where pro-gaming is at. A lot of people do it while having another job, but a few are lucky enough to do it full time.
On February 02 2011 06:12 echO [W] wrote: Pro-gaming today, in my opinion has the same vibe as professional sports did in the early times, if I remember correctly, professional athletes then did not compete or devote their entire lives to the game, they still had regular jobs and such because the money was not there yet for it to be a full time job.
I feel that right now that is where pro-gaming is at. A lot of people do it while having another job, but a few are lucky enough to do it full time.
Well I think of a lot of professional sports which aren't really "popular" are not that different to starcraft even today. e.g. Athletics, Swimming. Basically, because people dont care about them like football or basketball, there is no inherent money in Athletics or Swimming. Some countries pay their athletes well because they want gold medals in the Olympic but many don't. Hell, you probably cant even give lessons as easily as in SC2 because you have to be in person and not that many people bother to pay for personal coaching in swimming or athletics.
Even for popular sports, you will struggle to be good enough to earn enough to equal a 9-5.
Pro-gaming today, in my opinion has the same vibe as professional sports did in the early times, if I remember correctly, professional athletes then did not compete or devote their entire lives to the game, they still had regular jobs and such because the money was not there yet for it to be a full time job.
I feel that right now that is where pro-gaming is at. A lot of people do it while having another job, but a few are lucky enough to do it full time
.
Well I think of a lot of professional sports which aren't really "popular" are not that different to starcraft even today. e.g. Athletics, Swimming. Basically, because people dont care about them like football or basketball, there is no inherent money in Athletics or Swimming. Some countries pay their athletes well because they want gold medals in the Olympic but many don't. Hell, you probably cant even give lessons as easily as in SC2 because you have to be in person and not that many people bother to pay for personal coaching in swimming or athletics.
Even for popular sports, you will struggle to be good enough to earn enough to equal a 9-5.
This.
A lot of the smaller town local football teams here (south of the UK) consist of people who work as painters/decorators/technicians/etc as a dayjob and play football for fun, getting paid to play for the local club is almost negligible.
And some of them are still beating the bigger teams who's players are on thousands per week
There is no financial stability, unless you do something like gosu coaching, which will go down in price as the market realizes what the coaches gives arent worth such a steep price and there are plenty of quality players out there to give advice for free, or you practice so much that you are essentially earning slave labour wages to earn a salary from one of the larger teams.
99% of people in esports give more money to esports than they will ever get out, its not economically viable, unless you are literally ripping people off of their money, you will not make money enough money in esports to actually note.
Many young (18-25) adults in european countries, australia, etc before going to college, or into a job after college, fly to a new country, and get a job there. This provides them with just enough to get by, and allows them to stay in the country for as long as they want (think of it like a vacation) they're not in it for the money, they're in it for the experience of seeing new people, new places, etc. (example: go to whistler, I think I was the only teenager in the hotel that didnt speak with an australian accent!)
Becoming a professional Starcraft player is kind of like this, except you're doing a job you enjoy!
From what I've heard If a player wins a tournament they get to keep their winnings, and they also get a salary from the team they are on to support themselves. This makes it very possible to be a professional gamer.
lol e-sports is a comparatively small entity to something more popular such as the companies themselves that develop the games.
even now there still isn't a whole lot of money in e-sports but it supports thousands of people financially, maybe not tens of or hundreds of, but still thousands.
SK EU, the first wow team to get a salary, only got like 60 euro a month. so just because people say they have salaries, doesn't mean its a lot. I highly doubt many teams even get a salary.
It's not so easy holding a second job/going to school while trying to support your SC training. Unlike regular athletic sports, SC training requires like HALF a day of practice. So young players really need to consider the long term implications of sacrificing time to work/study/esport.
How many NA pro gamers are there? and how many worldwide?
Not sure what people define pro gamer as either. Does winning a tournament with a $1000 cash pool once a year make you a pro gamer? Or do you need multiple wins and a average yearly income of $50,000 to be considered one?
Do you have to win anything at all? Are shout casters pro gamers? Are SC community website owners pro gamers? What about tournament organizers?
On February 02 2011 07:17 Ten Tron wrote: How many NA pro gamers are there? and how many worldwide?
Not sure what people define pro gamer as either. Does winning a tournament with a $1000 cash pool once a year make you a pro gamer? Or do you need multiple wins and a average yearly income of $50,000 to be considered one?
Do you have to win anything at all? Are shout casters pro gamers? Are SC community website owners pro gamers? What about tournament organizers?
Do you have to win or make money?
The status of being a "progamer" is obviously not as well defined as it is in Brood War (salaried, full time, living in Korean prohouses).
Most people labeled as "progamer" are just really good amateurs. I'd define progamer to be someone whose primary source of income comes from gaming, whether through tournaments or coaching.
On February 02 2011 05:55 theBullFrog wrote: Edit: In my belief you don't go into progaming for the money, thats foolish and will lead to a burnout. You do it for the passion and the love of competition.
In my belief, you don't go into progaming for money, passion, or love of competition. You become a progamer if you are a super amazing gosu.
So what - you just wake up one day and you are super amazing gosu? Lol no .. you get that way from a shitload of practice because of your passion and desire for competition..
Financial stability cannot be one of the top priorities for someone wanting to be a progamer in NA.. maybe someone actually on a pro team could comment in here, because that would be great - i don't want to know how much you earn.. just if it is financially viable
Back in the mid 2000s, when counter-strike was really big, the pros were making a LOT of money, but only the top players. Just go check on SK-Gaming, Im pretty sure they tell the amount of money each player gets each year. Just think of f0rest, and I know its not NA, but its not Korea.
On February 02 2011 06:51 Holcan wrote: There is no financial stability, unless you do something like gosu coaching, which will go down in price as the market realizes what the coaches gives arent worth such a steep price and there are plenty of quality players out there to give advice for free, or you practice so much that you are essentially earning slave labour wages to earn a salary from one of the larger teams.
99% of people in esports give more money to esports than they will ever get out, its not economically viable, unless you are literally ripping people off of their money, you will not make money enough money in esports to actually note.
So you think there is a bubble in e-sports? If anything, I think the market is spot on in terms of how much it values e-sports and that over time, the value of the sector will go UP.
Like all other sports, the relative value of the sport depends on the number of eyeballs that the sport attracts which again relates to the popularity of the sport itself.
Take something like Poker for example. Poker was a small, niche market back in early 2000. There wasn't a lot of interest from the mainstream and it wasn't really on TV much. However, in 2004, something happened. Interest shot up as a result of the "Moneymaker effect". (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneymaker_Effect)
In conjunction with the advent of online poker, the popularity of poker rose and attracted both players and fans alike. Today, poker is on many major cable networks and you could say that poker has its own self sustaining economy.
The same thing, I believe, could happen to e-sports in general. Its just a matter of the right things coming together.
It's not very financially stable. That's inherent in the fact that they're professional players for a video game. Pro-gaming is a clearly niche market.
On February 02 2011 05:55 theBullFrog wrote: Edit: In my belief you don't go into progaming for the money, thats foolish and will lead to a burnout. You do it for the passion and the love of competition.
In my belief, you don't go into progaming for money, passion, or love of competition. You become a progamer if you are a super amazing gosu.
So what - you just wake up one day and you are super amazing gosu? Lol no .. you get that way from a shitload of practice because of your passion and desire for competition..
Financial stability cannot be one of the top priorities for someone wanting to be a progamer in NA.. maybe someone actually on a pro team could comment in here, because that would be great - i don't want to know how much you earn.. just if it is financially viable
no, what I meant by it was that you should not decide to become a progamer by passion and desire for competition alone. There are plenty of gamers like that (probably most of us in TL) which shows that passion and love for competition is not enough. you need to be an exceptional player that is capable of winning and being the very best at the game. otherwise you are just a self-claimed "progamer" and you can find plenty of those in halo scene -_-
edit: I believe more logical step is, first get better at the game with a passion / desire for just sake of being better or fun. once you get there and start pwning, you decide to go pro. this will surely save a lot of futile efforts by scrubs who has such will and motivation, but just suck at the game.
you forgot shoutcasting, if you have enough of a viewer ship you can make money off youtube advertisements if you are partnered with them, I believe Husky, HD and psystarcraft all make at least some money from youtube although i doubt it can support them fully.
On February 02 2011 07:55 TT1 wrote: casters make like 10x more money than top gamers
Pretty much this. With the amount of money Youtube gives out for moderate traffic videos, casters like Husky could easily make up to $100k/yr. Not a bad deal considering that's about 5-10 hours of work per week.
I hope your standard Diamond/low level Masters League player isn't thinking about going pro. It's a hard life. Think about the thousands your competing against.
...But if you play SC2 to entertain people - that seems like a more achievable goal for most. It doesn't just have to be Youtube casting (which I think there's no more space for new casters - unless you're more entertaining and outgoing) but being a good coach.
There's a certain player streaming on TL that has even bronze league players giving him $20/hour. You can also make money off of advertisements from streaming - hell, I think I remember one person receiving a $100 donation for streaming the Korean version of the GSL.
On February 02 2011 07:55 TT1 wrote: casters make like 10x more money than top gamers
Pretty much this. With the amount of money Youtube gives out for moderate traffic videos, casters like Husky could easily make up to $100k/yr. Not a bad deal considering that's about 5-10 hours of work per week.
I would imagine that Husky spends more than 5-10 hours a week doing the things you think are work, plus whatever additional time he spends doing SC2/PR/etc. Of course, it's not really comparable to a 9-5 job, since a large part of that time is doing things he would do anyway.
Similarly, iNcontroL seems to have a pretty stable gaming career, making money as a player, coaching lots of people, and could probably make some money casting if he isn't already. It's also impossible to compare the work he does to a 9-5 job, though. He probably spends far more than 40 hours a week doing SC2 related things than most spend doing things related to their jobs, but I doubt he'd call most of it "work."
I think if you really commit to making money in e-sports it's not that hard to do. The difficult part is actually committing yourself (probably less income than similar talent at anything traditional + many people wouldn't understand your decision) and having the passion for it to begin with. It's definitely an easier path for most people to just play SC2 as a hobby while pursuing other things, and you can still be good enough to be on a good team, take games from top players, etc.
On February 02 2011 06:51 Holcan wrote: There is no financial stability, unless you do something like gosu coaching, which will go down in price as the market realizes what the coaches gives arent worth such a steep price and there are plenty of quality players out there to give advice for free, or you practice so much that you are essentially earning slave labour wages to earn a salary from one of the larger teams.
99% of people in esports give more money to esports than they will ever get out, its not economically viable, unless you are literally ripping people off of their money, you will not make money enough money in esports to actually note.
So you think there is a bubble in e-sports? If anything, I think the market is spot on in terms of how much it values e-sports and that over time, the value of the sector will go UP.
Like all other sports, the relative value of the sport depends on the number of eyeballs that the sport attracts which again relates to the popularity of the sport itself.
Take something like Poker for example. Poker was a small, niche market back in early 2000. There wasn't a lot of interest from the mainstream and it wasn't really on TV much. However, in 2004, something happened. Interest shot up as a result of the "Moneymaker effect". (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneymaker_Effect)
In conjunction with the advent of online poker, the popularity of poker rose and attracted both players and fans alike. Today, poker is on many major cable networks and you could say that poker has its own self sustaining economy.
The same thing, I believe, could happen to e-sports in general. Its just a matter of the right things coming together.
Comparing poker to esports isnt fair, considering anyone with intelligence in esports, moves onto poker after their careers in esports are over, tr1p and tillerman are just two examples of people who were making top dollar in their respective games at the time, who moved over to poker and made much more money.
eSports will never become socially accepted, at least not in my life, itll always be something that college kids do in their spare time because they cannot compete in sports anymore, as long as its not socially acceptable, itll be hard to get sponsors outside of our niche market. Poker has been socially acceptable for a hundred years as a way of generating competition, they don't have the same problem of fighting each other over the same small sponsors, since there are hundreds of corporations not associated with poker willing to advertise through them. Not to mention that playing poker, even casually, costs people money, playing esports, especially casually, costs nothing.
Once again, I've hung around during the gotfrag vent party days, and heard a lot of top tier managers talking about their contributions to esports, and all of them sacrificed much more than they've gained, me saying that 99% of the people in esports will never see a profit isnt me just making it up, its a fact of the current esports market will give much, much more to esports than they will ever get back. The founders of culture never benefit, a good example if DJ Kool Herc, one of the god fathers of hip hop, recently needed to campaign for donations to pay medical bills since he was broke.
I only consider someone a progamer if playing is their full-time profession and primary source of income from salary or prize earnings.
For example, Draco and Mondragon were some of the best players of their era, but only Draco was a progamer because he played for OGN Sparkyz whereas Mondragon played while going to school.
Fast-forward to today: the lack of pro licenses and more developed foreigner scene make the difference between pro and not-pro less clear in SC2 than in BW. However it is clear that someone like IdrA, who gets a salary and plays full-time in the game's biggest league, is a progamer.
Simply put, if you have to do school or work outside playing to support yourself financially (this includes casting or teaching) you are not a progamer.
reminds me of Jazz musicians... or really any musician outside of the popular music circuit.. You make 95% of your money from teaching.. and the rest of the money comes from the very small pay you get from shows (relate to tournaments)..
Great, my two biggest passions gets me no money in life. haha.
Different game and all, but I know for a fact that some wow pve people actually could make a decent living of raiding and leading the guild. I assume If they can, sc2 people should defiantly be able to. Requires more skill and way more entertainment value. Tho not sure about exposure vs the back then most well know guild for example. It all depends on sponsors who are backing you up.
On February 02 2011 07:55 TT1 wrote: casters make like 10x more money than top gamers
Which seems pretty ass backwards, tbh.
Of course it is backwards, but casters control the main money making venues (tournaments, Youtube, etc). On a logical level this sucks because casters wouldn't have a business if top players weren't willing to play. But the situation wont change unless players organized themselves into some kind of union. And even that is likely to fail because there are a million other people willing to play...
The only way financial stability would ever come would be to Organize the game as a legitimate sport with media deals, including networks, sponsors, etc. Without viewers and good ratings on Television, there is no financial stability.
iNcontroL has 1081 hours of coaching listed on gosucoaching, assuming 800 lessons at his old rate of 30, 200 at his rate of 50, and now 81 at his rate of 70, that is at least 40,000 dollars in the last year or less that gosucoaching has really been up. Also he's booked until March 4th at 70$ an hour. This seems financially stable to me, the incredibly difficult part is getting there, for example: inKa 502 hours @ 30 an hour is only $15,000 in lets assume roughly a year: you just have to keep in mind that coaching is a job high in supply and middlish in demand, leading to generally low prices. If you were entering into the field of coaching now, as an unestablished name you could really only charge 10 bucks an hour or so because you are not popular, imagine how much Huk could charge for lessons. Lessons are a nice way to make income but you really have to work the community if you want to live off of it: i.e. iNcontroL.
Next you must consider what the team's payout is, it seems to me that a team like root-gaming doesn't have very much money to throw towards player salary, but I get the feeling that to these guys, a little means better than nothing. The fact of the matter is that there are no large companies sponsoring SC2, as there is not enough publicity to warrant it; therefore if you want to make money as a pro gamer HELP E-SPORTS GROW!! The moment there are 100,000 people watching GOM at 3am, is the moment that it will be taken seriously for sponsorship. But it seems to me that teams probably pay there players roughly 5-15 thousand dollars a year, as that is slightly less then the minimum wage annually on a 40 hour work week. Obviously it must be worked out in a team that someone like Idra gets more money than Machine as he wins more tournaments this way. In summary, I expect it to be less then minimum wage on a 40 hour work week, but with coaching and tournament wins approximately = to minimum wage; and entering into a more comfortable 30,000+ salary depending on the players popularity and coaching.
TL;DR: probably 5-15 grand a year, more with tournament results, and into the 30+ range with popularity and coaching
Edit: all speculation
As for caster's, they probably make a little above minimum wage annually due to the fact that they are sort of "sponsored" by youtube or the specific tournament wanting them to cast it. Caster's bring notoriety to a tournament, Day9 casting Dreamhack and IEM was a major reason to watch it, and a major way people knew where to find it/ how to watch it. While casting does not take as much skill as playing, it is still difficult to be good at, just watch any stream (including mine) where the person tries to cast, it takes a very specific personality to be entertaining and informative and not just one or the other. I cannot speculate on exact amounts given to casters as I have no frame of reference, but it is probably within 5-10 thousand dollars of the players annually.
I think the key to it all is GOMtv's ticket sales, if they can sell a huge number of tickets then they can attract NA sponsors (if their PR team is any good) and help it take off stateside
On February 02 2011 07:55 TT1 wrote: casters make like 10x more money than top gamers
Which seems pretty ass backwards, tbh.
Of course it is backwards, but casters control the main money making venues (tournaments, Youtube, etc). On a logical level this sucks because casters wouldn't have a business if top players weren't willing to play. But the situation wont change unless players organized themselves into some kind of union. And even that is likely to fail because there are a million other people willing to play...
It's not backwards at all. Players would have no prize money if there was nobody watching. And being a good caster takes talent and work just like being a player.
I'd like to throw in that a lot of pro or top gamers in NA already have or are getting a 4-year college degree. Its amazing that they can keep the talent that they have while in school + part time jobs, etc etc.
I think the only way to make "consistent" money is to train, a lot... But then even still it might not even be that great. I also agree that getting a legit salary job is more important.
I think only the top 0.01% can truly make it a living for a few years. Then you have situations like fatal1ty who have made it a lifetime career by owning a company.
On February 02 2011 08:35 Mithriel wrote: I know for a fact that some wow pve people actually could make a decent living of raiding and leading the guild.
Those few are a handful out of many thousands of players who devote their entire lives to the game in a way many SC2 players would find blindingly mind-numbing, but yes it's possible.
As for whether coaching is worth the money, it's all relative. I'd say anyone with a decent job could certainly afford an hour every week or two with a coach, and to be honest it probably would be worth doing just to help support a committed top-level player. The main thing I'd expect such a coach to be able to provide is prioritizing what to work on next, like "ok your macro's good enough, but you repeatedly do this or that really stupid thing that you need to correct."
I personally haven't pursued it because I'd rather come into that situation being sure I've done my level best to make the most of the resources I have available on my own, and I don't know that I can say that yet.
coaching is where the money is at. Tournaments are too infrequent/inconsistent - prizes are paid too late (I still havn't been paid for NYC IEM in october which is around $1500) as well as the fact that if you don't win you basically get shafted in terms of money earned.
Coaching + youtube partnership + streaming ad revenue. If you just want to play and make enough money to survive gl - the scene isn't really there yet.
On February 02 2011 07:57 Tenks wrote: ThisIsJimmy is probably the most well off progamer because he works a normal 9-5 as a software developer and also plays SC2.
Haha with the amount I make from SC2 I would not even consider myself a "progamer". The only players making a decent (more then full time minimum wage) amount of money in NA would be players who coach A LOT and players who are winning the biggest tournaments.
Right now, you just don't play SC2 for the money at all... you need to be doing something else in addition or you will be screwed. For Brood War players, this is nothing new
"So this Boxer guy just got a contract for 170K USD a year, and that might be one of the highest salary. There are 25000ish medical students in the US each year, and each one of them, once graduate residency, will earn at least 150K, and more depend on speciality"
I am glad I picked my path, and it wasn't progaming. It takes intelligence to game well, intelligence that can be used to do other things.
I don't think making SC2 your job is a good idea. Instead, treat it as a hobby. Let the hobby develop, and if you find yourself doing good, try out a few tournaments. If you do well in those, go to larger tournaments, etc, devote more time. I think you have to realize, the majority of pros probably maintain a 2nd income of sorts. You really have to be the cream of the crop to rely solely on SC2
On February 02 2011 07:55 TT1 wrote: casters make like 10x more money than top gamers
Which seems pretty ass backwards, tbh.
Of course it is backwards, but casters control the main money making venues (tournaments, Youtube, etc). On a logical level this sucks because casters wouldn't have a business if top players weren't willing to play. But the situation wont change unless players organized themselves into some kind of union. And even that is likely to fail because there are a million other people willing to play...
It's not backwards at all. Players would have no prize money if there was nobody watching. And being a good caster takes talent and work just like being a player.
I'm not saying casters shouldn't make money. I know it takes work. In fact, clearly it's harder than being a progamer because there are many excellent players but very few good casters. But when a caster casts an amazing replay by two top players, the players get no share of the ad revenue. Doesn't seem right to me.
Poker has been socially acceptable for a hundred years as a way of generating competition, they don't have the same problem of fighting each other over the same small sponsors, since there are hundreds of corporations not associated with poker willing to advertise through them.
I disagree that poker has always been acceptable. Poker was regarded as unacceptable as a profession up until very recently. E-sports today is where poker was 10, 20, 30, maybe 40 years ago. I don't know when e-sports will gain mainstream acceptance. But I do know that interest is growing and as long as interest is growing, it will eventually reach mainstream success at some point. I also think that it will probably happen in our lifetimes. Honestly, all you have to do is look at Korea.
On February 02 2011 09:04 Protoss_Carrier wrote: "So this Boxer guy just got a contract for 170K USD a year, and that might be one of the highest salary. There are 25000ish medical students in the US each year, and each one of them, once graduate residency, will earn at least 150K, and more depend on speciality"
I am glad I picked my path, and it wasn't progaming. It takes intelligence to game well, intelligence that can be used to do other things.
I don't think any well-informed person would argue that being a professional SC2 player is a choice one makes for the easy money. (Of course, that's true of medical doctors as well.)
Choosing to be a Starcraft pro is probably closer to being a graduate student in the humanities these days -- it's an enormous amount of work and the likelihood of being the lucky one who makes a living wage is very low.
On February 02 2011 09:04 Protoss_Carrier wrote: "So this Boxer guy just got a contract for 170K USD a year, and that might be one of the highest salary. There are 25000ish medical students in the US each year, and each one of them, once graduate residency, will earn at least 150K, and more depend on speciality"
I am glad I picked my path, and it wasn't progaming. It takes intelligence to game well, intelligence that can be used to do other things.
I don't think any well-informed person would argue that being a professional SC2 player is a choice one makes for the easy money. (Of course, that's true of medical doctors as well.)
Choosing to be a Starcraft pro is probably closer to being a graduate student in the humanities these days -- it's an enormous amount of work and the likelihood of being the lucky one who makes a living wage is very low.
medical profession doesnt give you easy money, but a stable living.
its not stable and dependable enough yet. only like top 10 people in the entire USA makes some money- and really its not that much nor dependable. to be a decent confident career, it would need to employ top 10% with decent money.
very very very few can be a top sc2 gamer and pay his mortgage, car insurance, food, and send his kids to college. it might make you some money if you live with your parents and don't have to pay the house bill/ car bill/ utilities and send your 2.4(average of America) kids to college. oh yeah don't forget medical insurance and all that. its just not viable unless you live at home and your parents pay the bills. (probly none can do this atm.) oh yeah dont forget a mortgage is 30 years.. you will also need the career to be viable for 30 years.
On February 02 2011 09:49 zimz wrote: very very very few can be a top sc2 gamer and pay his mortgage, car insurance, food, and send his kids to college.
Wait, are we talking about making a minimal subsistence living, or are we talking about buying a house, a car, a mortgage, and sending kids to college? Those are two different things. I don't see the esport thing going to the second place anywhere soon.
in terms of financial stability - no form of professional entertainer will ever have a stable job. pro basketball players can lose their job in 1 injury. pro starcraft players can likewise lose their entire career even if they just dont play as well for a little bit.
On February 02 2011 09:49 zimz wrote: very very very few can be a top sc2 gamer and pay his mortgage, car insurance, food, and send his kids to college.
Wait, are we talking about making a minimal subsistence living, or are we talking about buying a house, a car, a mortgage, and sending kids to college? Those are two different things. I don't see the esport thing going to the second place anywhere soon.
well just saying its just not a really stable career, and you would be wise to have another job on the side like ThisIsJimmy.
On February 02 2011 10:17 JiYan wrote: in terms of financial stability - no form of professional entertainer will ever have a stable job. pro basketball players can lose their job in 1 injury. pro starcraft players can likewise lose their entire career even if they just dont play as well for a little bit.
untrue. a pro basketball player just needs to sign a 5 year contract, and the minimum is like 1 million a year as long as its not your first year(rookie year- in this case its still like 400 thousand.) NBA. and the average salary is like 4million or something. so you only need 1 years worth of money to be pretty well off for life if your smart with the 4m. ( put in savings account/etc, open restaurant)
On February 02 2011 09:04 Protoss_Carrier wrote: This is what my father said about SC2 and boxer
"So this Boxer guy just got a contract for 170K USD a year, and that might be one of the highest salary. There are 25000ish medical students in the US each year, and each one of them, once graduate residency, will earn at least 150K, and more depend on speciality"
I am glad I picked my path, and it wasn't progaming. It takes intelligence to game well, intelligence that can be used to do other things.
But there are plenty of intelligent people who do not have the means to pursue a career as a doctor or an engineer, and there is no shame in that
On February 02 2011 09:04 Protoss_Carrier wrote: This is what my father said about SC2 and boxer
"So this Boxer guy just got a contract for 170K USD a year, and that might be one of the highest salary. There are 25000ish medical students in the US each year, and each one of them, once graduate residency, will earn at least 150K, and more depend on speciality"
I am glad I picked my path, and it wasn't progaming. It takes intelligence to game well, intelligence that can be used to do other things.
Source?
America is heading for one of the biggest economic busts in the history of our civilization. Artificially inflated global reserve currency, combined with contracts between FDI corps and international corps for access to their domestic market via sale/trade of the domestic currency = USD instability.
Instability + speculation = hyperinflation. Not "in"flation, but hyperinflation.
Just wait for it. ...sooner or later China will also recognize US debt as Sunk and, then, will US be really screwed. Remember, US is the land of importing and debt. There is nothing the US exports that holds any value to anyone - today (aside oil, but we all know what's going on with oil).
Bottom line, a "StabalizeD" $150, 000 is bullshit expectation that business ends of Universities spew, only to solidify enrollment. $150, 000 CF valuation, per year makes for the upfront initial investment of at least $300, 000 (min) seem incomparable to anything other than a BARGAIN (you make $300, 000 back, after tax (~50% for 150k salaries) in about 5-6 years, with gradual spending/speed saving. However, that is deductible - to an extent.
Bottom line: $150, 000 salary is bullshit.
Now I'm in this train of thought, I'd like us to reflect on what "we" as a universally developed society defines a 3rd world society as (i.e. criterion, characteristics and qualitative information). Unemployment >20%? Us recognizes 18% unemployed (330M populous) -> however, another 13% are unemployed, but are neglected by this statistic due to not receiving unemployment benefits. This is how you confound a statistic that your debtors use to consider whether or not feeding the elephant is still worth while.
Job creation? Exactly what does US export, in labor today? 10 years ago, US was the leading exporter in Capital labor. Today? China, India and Russia are leading the movement for Capital labor (Most Asian nations will always hold the title for leading labor exporters).
Huge public debt = low public employment. This is usually the defualt for most workers to find employment in...
In all actuality, I'd say e-sports (if you have the ability) is a growing career, given it's acceptance throughout the world. (Millions in game sales and the GSL was the MOST watched sport-related video when it's aired).
New bottom line: save your money, in something other than US notes. ...this is all US currency will always be in my eyes - IOU notes from a falsified 'private' bank that prints billions by the hour, off the books.
I feel the need to keep adding to my last input:
I say there is a possible future for e-sports (starcraft 2 in particular) for several reasons. Most notably, the MV of the audience that watches. Currently, software products (computers, accessors, etc.) are the primary sponsors of most tournaments, etc. Just wait for telecommunication products and a variety of other huge products to be a "norm" or "compliment" to SC2 players (from clothing, to certain types of Cellphone tablets).
I see the possibility for, given where technology is moving, the E-sport scene to be HIGHLY under valued. Remember, the number of "players" is low, by comparison to those who "watch" the games. I'm a great example of this, I watch probably 9:1 relative to game play hours.
I wouldn't count on E-sports "consistently" paying your bills; however, I sure as shit see it funding vacations, vehicle allowance, etc. as a secondary income supplement. Sadly, so few people actually work multiple jobs today. ...when really, you should be trying to reduce your debt as fast as you humanly can.
I think a recent canadian statistic was: ~less than 10% of Canadians have anything saved for retirement... America = 0%.
On February 02 2011 09:04 Protoss_Carrier wrote: This is what my father said about SC2 and boxer
"So this Boxer guy just got a contract for 170K USD a year, and that might be one of the highest salary. There are 25000ish medical students in the US each year, and each one of them, once graduate residency, will earn at least 150K, and more depend on speciality"
I am glad I picked my path, and it wasn't progaming. It takes intelligence to game well, intelligence that can be used to do other things.
But there are plenty of intelligent people who do not have the means to pursue a career as a doctor or an engineer, and there is no shame in that
Very true. Also, its not just about the money, it is also about fulfilling a passion and reaping the joy of that. What you do not make financially could indeed be compensated with just the gratification that you are involved in something you genuinely enjoy doing and in an atmosphere you are most comfortable in.
But speaking financially, e-sports is an inevitability on a large scale as technology is dissipated more and more throughout our society. The question is just when. If you hop on the train at the right point, it could certainly lead to a very successful career.
Think about it, in 30 or 40 years, Day[9] could transform into the John Madden of SC2.
Poker has been socially acceptable for a hundred years as a way of generating competition, they don't have the same problem of fighting each other over the same small sponsors, since there are hundreds of corporations not associated with poker willing to advertise through them.
I disagree that poker has always been acceptable. Poker was regarded as unacceptable as a profession up until very recently. E-sports today is where poker was 10, 20, 30, maybe 40 years ago. I don't know when e-sports will gain mainstream acceptance. But I do know that interest is growing and as long as interest is growing, it will eventually reach mainstream success at some point. I also think that it will probably happen in our lifetimes. Honestly, all you have to do is look at Korea.
As a profession, sure, but people were still competing in it, making quite a nice living, in esports most of the people live off their parents, they dont support themselves off tournament winnings. You cant really compare the two, since poker actually has money in it, and esports is a bunch of poor college kids living off their parents dollar.
On February 02 2011 08:57 qxc wrote: coaching is where the money is at. Tournaments are too infrequent/inconsistent - prizes are paid too late (I still havn't been paid for NYC IEM in october which is around $1500) as well as the fact that if you don't win you basically get shafted in terms of money earned.
Coaching + youtube partnership + streaming ad revenue. If you just want to play and make enough money to survive gl - the scene isn't really there yet.
same, actually i havnt even been paid for IEM Cologne yet, sad
On February 02 2011 10:55 goodvibes wrote: America is heading for one of the biggest economic busts in the history of our civilization. Artificially inflated global reserve currency, combined with contracts between FDI corps and international corps for access to their domestic market via sale/trade of the domestic currency = USD instability.
Instability + speculation = hyperinflation. Not "in"flation, but hyperinflation.
Just wait for it. ...sooner or later China will also recognize US debt as Sunk and, then, will US be really screwed. Remember, US is the land of importing and debt. There is nothing the US exports that holds any value to anyone - today (aside oil, but we all know what's going on with oil).
This post is so grossly exaggerated it's absurd. All just fear-mongering.
If China decided to call in the U.S. debt one day, the U.S. would probably default. And the world would go to shit. This is very similar to the situation in the EU where Germany wanted to keep these near bankrupt countries like Spain and Greece from defaulting because they have nothing to gain from losing that debt. They won't call in the debt any time soon, they have no current incentive to do so. China simply does not have the domestic consumption in place to thrive so well without the U.S.
On February 02 2011 10:55 goodvibes wrote: Now I'm in this train of thought, I'd like us to reflect on what "we" as a universally developed society defines a 3rd world society as (i.e. criterion, characteristics and qualitative information). Unemployment >20%? Us recognizes 18% unemployed (330M populous) -> however, another 13% are unemployed, but are neglected by this statistic due to not receiving unemployment benefits. This is how you confound a statistic that your debtors use to consider whether or not feeding the elephant is still worth while.
US recognized unemployment rate is at 9.4% (Source). That is the unemployed members of the labor force. This is probably higher because the numbers don't take into account people who quit looking for jobs. However, it's extremely unlikely that the true unemployment is anywhere near 20%.
On February 02 2011 10:55 goodvibes wrote: New bottom line: save your money, in something other than US notes. ...this is all US currency will always be in my eyes - IOU notes from a falsified 'private' bank that prints billions by the hour, off the books.
The U.S. dollar is the same as any fiat currency. It's all just paper. In fact, things like precious metals that aren't used in manufacturing are just as worthless. Why would I want gold in a zombie apocalypse? It's worthless too. The only thing that gives it value is other people.
I'm not saying don't diversify, but no U.S. dollars? That's just ridiculous.
On February 02 2011 10:55 goodvibes wrote: I think a recent canadian statistic was: ~less than 10% of Canadians have anything saved for retirement... America = 0%.
...Yeah that makes sense. So apparently after retirement 100% of Americas populous is instantly fucked.
As far as e-sports for a career. If it's possible for you, then you're probably already doing it.
I know some of the salaries of the pro gamers or should I say asking prize since I'm a friend of ex-manager of RAGE (I dunno if his in buttonbashers or something) but of course for secrecy I'm not going to open my mouth :O
On February 02 2011 07:55 TT1 wrote: casters make like 10x more money than top gamers
Pretty much this. With the amount of money Youtube gives out for moderate traffic videos, casters like Husky could easily make up to $100k/yr. Not a bad deal considering that's about 5-10 hours of work per week.
And this is why I hate the clown, if only he could be as smart and helpful as day9... maybe...
I think foreigner pros are getting much smarter. Many of them are teaching and setting up streams and just generally promoting the shit out of themselves. I think this is awesome and I'm sure as e-sports continue to develop the life of a progamer will get easier and easier as well. One thing I'd like to see is actual gamers, people that have real knowledge of the game, take up a bigger share if this whole casting/youtube commentary fad that is earning a select few a fair amount of money. Especially seeing as many of these knowledgeable players have great personalities as well.
It all depends on how well starcraft continues to develop though.
On February 03 2011 00:57 theBullFrog wrote: hd and husky do not make $100k a year.. someone said that once and HD said No. lol
I think it'd be wise to avoid another "how much does a caster make?? lol they don't do anything to deserve that" thread, we all saw how the last one ended.
It's only logical that team sponsership/salary for pro player goes up whenever they win and eSports grows as a whole. The base level compensation players receive will go up once eSports grows, and therefore the standout players will obviously be compensated more.
I do believe this year eSports (more specifically SC2) will get it's moneymaker effect, more people will be interested in it, more skilled players will come, more exposure will happen for the sponsers and thus players will be compensated more.
and coaching is great, I wish more players picked up the coaching. I love how JP & friends is going with pros helping jp (and everyone who is watching essentially) out.
On February 02 2011 09:04 Protoss_Carrier wrote: This is what my father said about SC2 and boxer
"So this Boxer guy just got a contract for 170K USD a year, and that might be one of the highest salary. There are 25000ish medical students in the US each year, and each one of them, once graduate residency, will earn at least 150K, and more depend on speciality"
I am glad I picked my path, and it wasn't progaming. It takes intelligence to game well, intelligence that can be used to do other things.
I'm also glad you're not the one involved in esports. Sorry but this post does sound quite elitist. I want to bring to your attention that people are intelligent in different ways; I doubt all the pro gamers currently have the talent to be successful in medicine. Oh and did I mention all those people who took up life sciences in undergrad and didn't get accepted into med school?
Also, please realize that for Boxer it's not just the salary, it's also sponsorships, tv appearance, and a lot of stuff related that brings in money. Living standards in Koreas would also be quite different, so this direct comparison falls way short of a true reflection on quality of life.
I think a lot of people don't understand where the money in Sports, E-Sports, and Entertainment in general actually comes from. It doesn't come from winnings, and it doesn't come from the viewers directly.
What happens is, something gets popular and attracts a lot of attention. Some CEO somewhere notices this and thinks to themselves "If my company's name was plastered all over this, then I bet at least a percentage of the people watching would buy my product." They then do some math to determine how much business they're likely to obtain, and they decide what percentage of that potential profit they want to invest to get their name on it.
In other words. money goes to the most popular people. Right now, in the US, SC2 e-sports has a negligible fraction of the popularity of any major (and most minor) sports out there, so there isn't all that much money to go around. As such, only the best of the best are going to be worth a sponsor's money at the moment.
SC2 needs more exposure. We need more rivalry, more intrigue, and we need to make the game more understandable and watchable to more people. (NOTE: This is one reason that casters are every bit as important as players, if not more)
I don't know what the hell happened in Korea for SC1/BW that made such a huge percentage of the general population there savvy enough of the game to make it popular, but it will take something big to draw even a fraction as much attention to it in the US, I think.
On February 02 2011 07:55 TT1 wrote: casters make like 10x more money than top gamers
Pretty much this. With the amount of money Youtube gives out for moderate traffic videos, casters like Husky could easily make up to $100k/yr. Not a bad deal considering that's about 5-10 hours of work per week.
And this is why I hate the clown, if only he could be as smart and helpful as day9... maybe...
But what is he doing wrong? He's just casting and enjoying the game like the rest of us. Yeh, he had the fortune to get really big, is that his fault? Should he randomly start handing out money to pro-gamers? I cant justify the hate :/
On February 02 2011 07:55 TT1 wrote: casters make like 10x more money than top gamers
Pretty much this. With the amount of money Youtube gives out for moderate traffic videos, casters like Husky could easily make up to $100k/yr. Not a bad deal considering that's about 5-10 hours of work per week.
And this is why I hate the clown, if only he could be as smart and helpful as day9... maybe...
But what is he doing wrong? He's just casting and enjoying the game like the rest of us. Yeh, he had the fortune to get really big, is that his fault? Should he randomly start handing out money to pro-gamers? I cant justify the hate :/
Especially since back in beta they were scrambling to get youtube to recognize them(I believe both hd and husky). Maybe the $ difference between a pro and a caster is not right, but still the casters do one heck of a job and one can only wonder how many people husky/hd especially have gotten interested in sc2. The only thing that annoys me about husky is just the random crap he does
Ontopic, it does feel like the scene is getting bigger, maybe it will take HotS/toss expansion to make it big, but I'm hopeful. What I find most fubar is that the pros don't get their $ just straight after the tourneys.
On February 02 2011 08:57 qxc wrote: coaching is where the money is at. Tournaments are too infrequent/inconsistent - prizes are paid too late (I still havn't been paid for NYC IEM in october which is around $1500) as well as the fact that if you don't win you basically get shafted in terms of money earned.
Coaching + youtube partnership + streaming ad revenue. If you just want to play and make enough money to survive gl - the scene isn't really there yet.
same, actually i havnt even been paid for IEM Cologne yet, sad
I have maintained a decent salary for 10 years as a break/fix tech and network engineer for Apple. I would have loved to become a professional house DJ and lived "the life" for a while. I was able to maintain several local DJ residencies and I met my wife touring in Russia DJing house music 3 years in a row and that was maintaining my DJing on the side. What this allowed me to do was never sell out my style and never feel the burden of maintaining my lifestyle with my craft that I love. Although to be the best of the best in anything I do feel you have to "all in", however I do feel that you can make compromises and still make it close to the top. I know this is not pro gaming or eSports but really it is the same idea. (By the way, convincing my wife that SC2 is intellectually beneficial and one of the chess games of our times has been a struggle but she has started to ease off after reading a positive article about the benefits of multitasking in RTS and gaming.)
For those who "all in" , best of luck and part of me envies your courage : )
As a former Counter Strike progamer. Financial stability in NA is very hard. Most progamers in my day only made money through tourneys and sponsors which depends on the tournament and your performance. If you are an all-star, you could give lesson.
However there was a millionaire named Jason Lake and bought 5 all-star players and formed team Complexity (tag: coLname) and put his players on very good salaries to simply practice 12 hours a day at a private house he bought. When CS died (due to the creation of source). ESports dwindled down. This was the only case where progamer made a real living.
Note: this is only NA, its different in asia and europe
During my CS days, and a good year, i could make from 1,000 to 5,000 per tournament and maybe another 1k or 2 from sponsors if we did well. Sponsors are usually for perks and extra bucks, such as flight tickets, computer stuff, food, hotels... Etc.
StarCraft in NA isnt as big as it should be but and you cannot make a living off of being a progamer because eSports isnt recognized enough. That said, maybe in the future it'll be possible.
For those who think this will take off like poker, you need to realize that the financial economics of poker is totally different from pro-gaming. As a previous poster stated, it's really driven by turning viewer-ship into sponsorship. What was nice about Moneymaker winning was that it caused people to participate immediately through directly contribution, and often, as a pure function of their existing income. So you had not only a huge demographic of middle-america middle-iq John Does throwing cash into the pool, but also big shots like Jerry West, Guy Laliberté and Paul Phillips. Some of these players were legitimate, but far more were fish and whales.
Starcraft isn't going to work like that. If you want to compare it to something, compare it to extreme sports and X-games, or maybe MMA. i.e. something that certainly takes skill to do, but has an appeal to a smaller niche market (generation-Y and predominantly male).
Well, for people who care less about making big money and having a nice car than they do about getting by while spending as much time as possible doing something they enjoy doing, there's potential in esports, although it sounds like it's still a tough living and I hope you like coaching or casting or something.
Personally, I've got a 9-5 job that pays pretty well, but if I could make half as much as I currently do doing something more fun, I'd jump at the opportunity.
On February 03 2011 05:18 mDuo13 wrote: Well, for people who care less about making big money and having a nice car than they do about getting by while spending as much time as possible doing something they enjoy doing, there's potential in esports, although it sounds like it's still a tough living and I hope you like coaching or casting or something.
Personally, I've got a 9-5 job that pays pretty well, but if I could make half as much as I currently do doing something more fun, I'd jump at the opportunity.
there is no potential in esports...please explain to me how you pay rent? pay for food? pay for an internet connection? Its just not possible unless you are the top .5% of players, and the top .5% of players change every month in sc2, so no its not possible.
On February 03 2011 05:18 mDuo13 wrote: Well, for people who care less about making big money and having a nice car than they do about getting by while spending as much time as possible doing something they enjoy doing, there's potential in esports, although it sounds like it's still a tough living and I hope you like coaching or casting or something.
Personally, I've got a 9-5 job that pays pretty well, but if I could make half as much as I currently do doing something more fun, I'd jump at the opportunity.
there is no potential in esports...please explain to me how you pay rent? pay for food? pay for an internet connection? Its just not possible unless you are the top .5% of players, and the top .5% of players change every month in sc2, so no its not possible.
Not sure how you reached the conclusions that esports has no potential. I mean it's getting drastically larger all across the world all the time and at this point there are a lot of people earning a living playing various games or doing esports related work. America probably has the furthest to go but they're getting there. Meanwhile players are finding new ways of earning money online, which is awesome. In your last paragraph it looks like you're assuming tournament prizes are the only way of getting by as a pro.
On February 02 2011 08:57 qxc wrote: ...
Coaching + youtube partnership + streaming ad revenue. If you just want to play and make enough money to survive gl - the scene isn't really there yet.
I'm quite curious, how do teams like EG make money and afford sponsoring their members? They don't have any actual revenue, do they? Ads on their sites maybe but beyond that, they don't have a strong product line or anything, do they? So what benefit would they even get by hosting a lineup of star players?
On February 03 2011 05:18 mDuo13 wrote: Well, for people who care less about making big money and having a nice car than they do about getting by while spending as much time as possible doing something they enjoy doing, there's potential in esports, although it sounds like it's still a tough living and I hope you like coaching or casting or something.
Personally, I've got a 9-5 job that pays pretty well, but if I could make half as much as I currently do doing something more fun, I'd jump at the opportunity.
there is no potential in esports...please explain to me how you pay rent? pay for food? pay for an internet connection? Its just not possible unless you are the top .5% of players, and the top .5% of players change every month in sc2, so no its not possible.
Not sure how you reached the conclusions that esports has no potential. I mean it's getting drastically larger all across the world all the time and at this point there are a lot of people earning a living playing various games or doing esports related work. America probably has the furthest to go but they're getting there. Meanwhile players are finding new ways of earning money online, which is awesome. In your last paragraph it looks like you're assuming tournament prizes are the only way of getting by as a pro.
On February 02 2011 08:57 qxc wrote: coaching is where the money is at. Tournaments are too infrequent/inconsistent - prizes are paid too late (I still havn't been paid for NYC IEM in october which is around $1500) as well as the fact that if you don't win you basically get shafted in terms of money earned.
Coaching + youtube partnership + streaming ad revenue. If you just want to play and make enough money to survive gl - the scene isn't really there yet.
I never said tournament winnings are the only way of going pro, most high tier amateurs have a clause in their contract which sends tournament winnings, or a percentage of, to their sponsored team. Please explain to me again how you pay rent, pay for food, and pay for an internet connection without being the top .5% of sc2 players, even they probably live with their parents, are on welfare, or work a 9-5 job. Esports is not economically viable as a career, and I tell all my players that this is a hobby to do for fun, not a career path. Btw, i reached that concusion by working in esports for the past 5 years, and contributing heavily in various facets of its development, and being in close contact with some of the most prominent managers.
On February 03 2011 05:18 mDuo13 wrote: Well, for people who care less about making big money and having a nice car than they do about getting by while spending as much time as possible doing something they enjoy doing, there's potential in esports, although it sounds like it's still a tough living and I hope you like coaching or casting or something.
Personally, I've got a 9-5 job that pays pretty well, but if I could make half as much as I currently do doing something more fun, I'd jump at the opportunity.
there is no potential in esports...please explain to me how you pay rent? pay for food? pay for an internet connection? Its just not possible unless you are the top .5% of players, and the top .5% of players change every month in sc2, so no its not possible.
Not sure how you reached the conclusions that esports has no potential. I mean it's getting drastically larger all across the world all the time and at this point there are a lot of people earning a living playing various games or doing esports related work. America probably has the furthest to go but they're getting there. Meanwhile players are finding new ways of earning money online, which is awesome. In your last paragraph it looks like you're assuming tournament prizes are the only way of getting by as a pro.
On February 02 2011 08:57 qxc wrote: coaching is where the money is at. Tournaments are too infrequent/inconsistent - prizes are paid too late (I still havn't been paid for NYC IEM in october which is around $1500) as well as the fact that if you don't win you basically get shafted in terms of money earned.
Coaching + youtube partnership + streaming ad revenue. If you just want to play and make enough money to survive gl - the scene isn't really there yet.
I never said tournament winnings are the only way of going pro, most high tier amateurs have a clause in their contract which sends tournament winnings, or a percentage of, to their sponsored team. Please explain to me again how you pay rent, pay for food, and pay for an internet connection without being the top .5% of sc2 players, even they probably live with their parents, are on welfare, or work a 9-5 job. Esports is not economically viable as a career, and I tell all my players that this is a hobby to do for fun, not a career path. Btw, i reached that concusion by working in esports for the past 5 years, and contributing heavily in various facets of its development, and being in close contact with some of the most prominent managers.
The reason I assumed that is because you mentioned how the .5% elite changes radically from month to month.
But anyway I still don't understand how you reach that conclusion. E-sports are obviously getting more widespread everywhere, and with more fans/viewers the opportunities to make money should come naturally. What e-sports seem to be lacking is a game that catches the attention of a wide spectrum of gamers where people could work towards something more stable for the pro's similar to proleague in korea. It'll probably happen at some point.
Not really trying to defend the decision to try and become a progamer right now at least not in a fiscal sense, but you're talking about the future as if you foresee some unexpected development that deviates from the way things have been progressing over the last 10 years.
You act like eSports is a booming industry, it isnt. And gaining a few thousand viewers since sc2s release isnt changing anything either, outside sponsors dont want to see viewership in the tens of thousands, they want to see viewership in the 100,000's or more.
Esports will never become socially acceptable, especially with some of the current poster childs, (heres looking at you hostile !) Outside sponsors will always view this as a niche market, the most we can ever hope for is inside sponsorships (steelseries, razer) and related sponsorships (Intel, AMD). Look at how hard the CGS failed when they brought in outside sponsors.
Sure its possible to make a profit off esports, but you definitely wont be able to pay rent, afford to marry, and do all the things you can do with a 9-5 job, unless you are the very top percentile of players, and if you are a top percentile, you need to travel to a foreign country to compete.
A good example is Axslav, he plays for Team EG, one of the, if not the pinnacle of NA esports, yet he has a career outside of esports.
On February 02 2011 08:57 qxc wrote: coaching is where the money is at. Tournaments are too infrequent/inconsistent - prizes are paid too late (I still havn't been paid for NYC IEM in october which is around $1500) as well as the fact that if you don't win you basically get shafted in terms of money earned.
Coaching + youtube partnership + streaming ad revenue. If you just want to play and make enough money to survive gl - the scene isn't really there yet.
same, actually i havnt even been paid for IEM Cologne yet, sad
Question: why those Big Tournament havent paid the Prize pool? it seems that they.... wait!
On February 03 2011 07:08 Holcan wrote: You act like eSports is a booming industry, it isnt. And gaining a few thousand viewers since sc2s release isnt changing anything either, outside sponsors dont want to see viewership in the tens of thousands, they want to see viewership in the 100,000's or more.
Esports will never become socially acceptable, especially with some of the current poster childs, (heres looking at you hostile !) Outside sponsors will always view this as a niche market, the most we can ever hope for is inside sponsorships (steelseries, razer) and related sponsorships (Intel, AMD). Look at how hard the CGS failed when they brought in outside sponsors.
Sure its possible to make a profit off esports, but you definitely wont be able to pay rent, afford to marry, and do all the things you can do with a 9-5 job, unless you are the very top percentile of players, and if you are a top percentile, you need to travel to a foreign country to compete.
A good example is Axslav, he plays for Team EG, one of the, if not the pinnacle of NA esports, yet he has a career outside of esports.
You need to be in the top percentile or actually higher in any sport / entertainment to make a living of it. There are 6,7 Million people organized (a lot more are actually playing though) in the german football association (DFB) and how many people are making a living out of it? we have 3 Pro-Leagues and 4th league (there are 2 of them) also pays quite well - at least some teams in it.
So you have 5 leagues with ~20 teams with roughly ~20 players eacth, that makes 2000 people out of 6,7 million, thats 0,03 Percent.
On February 02 2011 08:57 qxc wrote: coaching is where the money is at. Tournaments are too infrequent/inconsistent - prizes are paid too late (I still havn't been paid for NYC IEM in october which is around $1500) as well as the fact that if you don't win you basically get shafted in terms of money earned.
Coaching + youtube partnership + streaming ad revenue. If you just want to play and make enough money to survive gl - the scene isn't really there yet.
same, actually i havnt even been paid for IEM Cologne yet, sad
Question: why those Big Tournament havent paid the Prize pool? it seems that they.... wait!
ESL has somewhere it in policies that it pays pricemoney in a frame of 90 to 180 days after the tournament... I don't want to comment what I think of that ^^
Say if you coached for 50$ an hour for 4-5 hours a day thats like 200-250 dollars a day. Which is like working 9 to 5 at 25$ an hour? This and other income such as prizes and sponsorship money aswell as having computer parts paid for, would make one thing that pro gamers are pretty well off.
On February 03 2011 07:22 Jhax wrote: Say if you coached for 50$ an hour for 4-5 hours a day thats like 200-250 dollars a day. Which is like working 9 to 5 at 25$ an hour? This and other income such as prizes and sponsorship money aswell as having computer parts paid for, would make one thing that pro gamers are pretty well off.
Most progamers aren't doing much coaching, with a few exceptions, coaching isn't a steady source of income for players.
That said, if the market for coaching stays at the level it's at or keeps increasing, some players (who do have a steady stream of coaching work) could be making a lot more money doing coaching than doing most normal careers. I know going by the figures provided by one player/coach that he'll make over something like 50k USD a year (maybe more) if it stays steady - just from coaching.
On February 03 2011 07:08 Holcan wrote: You act like eSports is a booming industry, it isnt. And gaining a few thousand viewers since sc2s release isnt changing anything either, outside sponsors dont want to see viewership in the tens of thousands, they want to see viewership in the 100,000's or more.
Esports will never become socially acceptable, especially with some of the current poster childs, (heres looking at you hostile !) Outside sponsors will always view this as a niche market, the most we can ever hope for is inside sponsorships (steelseries, razer) and related sponsorships (Intel, AMD). Look at how hard the CGS failed when they brought in outside sponsors.
Sure its possible to make a profit off esports, but you definitely wont be able to pay rent, afford to marry, and do all the things you can do with a 9-5 job, unless you are the very top percentile of players, and if you are a top percentile, you need to travel to a foreign country to compete.
A good example is Axslav, he plays for Team EG, one of the, if not the pinnacle of NA esports, yet he has a career outside of esports.
You need to be in the top percentile or actually higher in any sport / entertainment to make a living of it. There are 6,7 Million people organized (a lot more are actually playing though) in the german football association (DFB) and how many people are making a living out of it? we have 3 Pro-Leagues and 4th league (there are 2 of them) also pays quite well - at least some teams in it.
So you have 5 leagues with ~20 teams with roughly ~20 players eacth, that makes 2000 people out of 6,7 million, thats 0,03 Percent.
Thanks for helping to prove my point This leads me to believe that its actually a smaller percentile than i originally estimated.
On February 03 2011 07:22 Jhax wrote: Say if you coached for 50$ an hour for 4-5 hours a day thats like 200-250 dollars a day. Which is like working 9 to 5 at 25$ an hour? This and other income such as prizes and sponsorship money aswell as having computer parts paid for, would make one thing that pro gamers are pretty well off.
The major problem with that is that coaching for 4-5 hours a day probably means you won't win any prize worth mentioning in this discussion. Either way I do think there's enough potential for financial stability in NA. I think it's there already for some and soon for many more.
It's like any other entertainment/artistic job. Actual performance often is supplemental or at best an okay living. Most of the money comes from teaching. Music, drawing, dance, whatever - it's the same thing, only a different audience.
On February 03 2011 07:08 Holcan wrote: You act like eSports is a booming industry, it isnt. And gaining a few thousand viewers since sc2s release isnt changing anything either, outside sponsors dont want to see viewership in the tens of thousands, they want to see viewership in the 100,000's or more.
Esports will never become socially acceptable, especially with some of the current poster childs, (heres looking at you hostile !) Outside sponsors will always view this as a niche market, the most we can ever hope for is inside sponsorships (steelseries, razer) and related sponsorships (Intel, AMD). Look at how hard the CGS failed when they brought in outside sponsors.
Sure its possible to make a profit off esports, but you definitely wont be able to pay rent, afford to marry, and do all the things you can do with a 9-5 job, unless you are the very top percentile of players, and if you are a top percentile, you need to travel to a foreign country to compete.
A good example is Axslav, he plays for Team EG, one of the, if not the pinnacle of NA esports, yet he has a career outside of esports.
E-sports are largely socially accepted in some european countries not to mention the way it was in korea a few years back. I think you're focusing too much on current conditions in the US and even then fail to notice how everything's been moving forward. Notice how OSL was sponsored by a fucking airline company and GSL having sony ericsson for their main sponsor?
It's besides the point though, sponsors will obviously try to reach a specific demographic namely gamers in this case and I don't see why that would be a hinderance? More people play video games, e-sports keeps growing, more gaming related products get purchased, more gaming companies stand to make more profit off of advertisement/sponsorships. Why do you think big companies like razer and steelseries sprung up fairly recently? Sponsorships even now aren't some useless basement-ran software websites either but HUGE corporations like
SK - Acer MYM - puma, WD, razer
Intel stepping in as the main sponsor in GSL recently. Etc, etc.
And like some other guy said it sort of goes without saying that only the top will be able to sustain a decent living by playing video games/sports without doing some sort of related work purely for profit.
In don't know how it is where you live but in sweden the old stereotypical fat/greasy/generally disgusting nerd image washed off ages ago. Most people play video games in some shape or form, let's look at some swedish gaming superheroes.
Progaming might be able to support you right now, but not in 15 years from now. At some point you wont be able to compete with younger players, you'll be too slow. At what age you'll reach that point is debatable, but if professional athletes are an indication it's probably around age 35. The problem with professional gaming is that it doesnt pay well enough to retire at age 35, so you'll probably need to get a regular job anyway. If the only thing you've done in the last 15 years is play videogames you're going to have a hard time getting a 'real' job.
So no, i dont think esports is a stable (or advisable) career path, not even for most top players. But i guess for those players its more about following their dream than making money, or atleast i hope it is.
On February 03 2011 10:13 Elp wrote: Progaming might be able to support you right now, but not in 15 years from now. At some point you wont be able to compete with younger players, you'll be too slow. At what age you'll reach that point is debatable, but if professional athletes are an indication it's probably around age 35.
Research into the impact of age on reaction time shows variable results depending on exactly what's being tested, and reactions that require cognitive involvement (like many of the actions in Starcraft 2) exhibit less slowing than other types of reactions (like, say, pressing a button when a light comes on.)
In any case, significant slowing of reaction time doesn't really hit until age 50 or so, and it also varies a good deal from person to person.
The big reason that professional athletes often retire by their mid-30s is more an issue of raw stamina, physical speed of energy-intensive motion like sprinting, and a slowing ability to recover from extreme exertion. Sports that do not depend on these qualities so much often include participants who are successful later into adulthood.
It's important when looking at the ages at which people are successful in the Starcraft community to take into account a few things. People who are now in their mid-30s grew up with a lot less video game play experience as children, and that lack of early training and practice may have an impact on their ability to perform at a modern game like Starcraft. Home video game systems of the time had limited control and high latency that made the experience very different and not particularly analogous.
Also, given the current state of the pro gaming world (which has been laid out pretty well here) the typical 30-ish Starcraft player has already made life choices that would exclude putting in the time to succeed at the game. That they're poorly represented in the pro community could well just be a matter of having largely counted themselves out of the pool.
I would not be surprised to see the ages of pro gamers slowly creeping up over the next ten or fifteen years, though probably not dramatically unless pro gaming becomes a much more viable living than it is today. There will still be peer pressure on 30s-ish gamers to "get a real career" in a way that there isn't for people in their early 20s, and there will probably still be a stigma, an assumption of poor performance, associated with people who reach the 30 mark, whether or not it's backed up by the facts.
On February 03 2011 08:12 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: It's like any other entertainment/artistic job. Actual performance often is supplemental or at best an okay living. Most of the money comes from teaching. Music, drawing, dance, whatever - it's the same thing, only a different audience.
Not really, commercial art is very lucrative (entertainment design, graphical design) it's just hard to get into because it requires up to 6+ hours a day of practice and thorough discipline.
When talking about art, you have to distinguish what kind of art you're talking about, is it Fine art or applied art. Fine art is more painting, sculpture, etc. Applied art is like illustration (say for a video game), animation, photography (which can be fine art as well, but can also be commercial/advertising/photojournalism), graphic design, and the like.
On February 03 2011 10:13 Elp wrote: Progaming might be able to support you right now, but not in 15 years from now. At some point you wont be able to compete with younger players, you'll be too slow. At what age you'll reach that point is debatable, but if professional athletes are an indication it's probably around age 35.
Research into the impact of age on reaction time shows variable results depending on exactly what's being tested, and reactions that require cognitive involvement (like many of the actions in Starcraft 2) exhibit less slowing than other types of reactions (like, say, pressing a button when a light comes on.)
In any case, significant slowing of reaction time doesn't really hit until age 50 or so, and it also varies a good deal from person to person.
The big reason that professional athletes often retire by their mid-30s is more an issue of raw stamina, physical speed of energy-intensive motion like sprinting, and a slowing ability to recover from extreme exertion. Sports that do not depend on these qualities so much often include participants who are successful later into adulthood.
It's important when looking at the ages at which people are successful in the Starcraft community to take into account a few things. People who are now in their mid-30s grew up with a lot less video game play experience as children, and that lack of early training and practice may have an impact on their ability to perform at a modern game like Starcraft. Home video game systems of the time had limited control and high latency that made the experience very different and not particularly analogous.
Also, given the current state of the pro gaming world (which has been laid out pretty well here) the typical 30-ish Starcraft player has already made life choices that would exclude putting in the time to succeed at the game. That they're poorly represented in the pro community could well just be a matter of having largely counted themselves out of the pool.
I would not be surprised to see the ages of pro gamers slowly creeping up over the next ten or fifteen years, though probably not dramatically unless pro gaming becomes a much more viable living than it is today. There will still be peer pressure on 30s-ish gamers to "get a real career" in a way that there isn't for people in their early 20s, and there will probably still be a stigma, an assumption of poor performance, associated with people who reach the 30 mark, whether or not it's backed up by the facts.
lolwut . . almost every Brood War pro peaked in their early twenties and started disappearing from the scene by 24-ish. It has a lot to do with reaction time, speed, and decision making.
On February 03 2011 10:13 Elp wrote: Progaming might be able to support you right now, but not in 15 years from now. At some point you wont be able to compete with younger players, you'll be too slow. At what age you'll reach that point is debatable, but if professional athletes are an indication it's probably around age 35.
Research into the impact of age on reaction time shows variable results depending on exactly what's being tested, and reactions that require cognitive involvement (like many of the actions in Starcraft 2) exhibit less slowing than other types of reactions (like, say, pressing a button when a light comes on.)
In any case, significant slowing of reaction time doesn't really hit until age 50 or so, and it also varies a good deal from person to person.
The big reason that professional athletes often retire by their mid-30s is more an issue of raw stamina, physical speed of energy-intensive motion like sprinting, and a slowing ability to recover from extreme exertion. Sports that do not depend on these qualities so much often include participants who are successful later into adulthood.
It's important when looking at the ages at which people are successful in the Starcraft community to take into account a few things. People who are now in their mid-30s grew up with a lot less video game play experience as children, and that lack of early training and practice may have an impact on their ability to perform at a modern game like Starcraft. Home video game systems of the time had limited control and high latency that made the experience very different and not particularly analogous.
Also, given the current state of the pro gaming world (which has been laid out pretty well here) the typical 30-ish Starcraft player has already made life choices that would exclude putting in the time to succeed at the game. That they're poorly represented in the pro community could well just be a matter of having largely counted themselves out of the pool.
I would not be surprised to see the ages of pro gamers slowly creeping up over the next ten or fifteen years, though probably not dramatically unless pro gaming becomes a much more viable living than it is today. There will still be peer pressure on 30s-ish gamers to "get a real career" in a way that there isn't for people in their early 20s, and there will probably still be a stigma, an assumption of poor performance, associated with people who reach the 30 mark, whether or not it's backed up by the facts.
lolwut . . almost every Brood War pro peaked in their early twenties and started disappearing from the scene by 24-ish. It has a lot to do with reaction time, speed, and decision making.
Sc2 is nowhere near as mechanically demanding as broodwar is. Few games are, in fact.
If the only thing you've done in the last 15 years is play videogames you're going to have a hard time getting a 'real' job.
Pretty much 100% false.
First off, it opens up a ton of doors to work in a variety of fields that involve gaming, anything from working directly with gaming companies to working with say computer parts manufacturers as head of their sponsorship divisions etc. Someone who managed to have a very successful pro gaming career would know the ins and outs of the industry and that right there could continue with a living.
Furthermore, just because you are a progamer doesn't mean your some moron who has no other skills outside of clicking a mouse. Actually most of these top pro gamers from my experience are super bright people, have gone to college, they understand and process things quickly and offer a skill set that is quite unique and a skill set I'd much rather have than a lot of these degrees plenty of people come out of school with today that are worthless.
Everyone understands that you aren't a pro gamer forever, but if you can do it for a period of time, support yourself, have fun doing it then why not. Live the dream as long as you can and then you move on from there. To me it isn't much different than a triple A baseball player that never makes the majors and gets that big payday. A comment like that is narrow minded and shows a complete lack for understanding how the real world actually works.
BW pros leaving at 24-ish might have to do with level of interest, wanting to maintain that grueling practice schedule, and several other factors.
It's more likely that you would make SC2 financially lucrative as a performer than a competitor, since you can't really win every tournament you attend and attending tournaments too frequently cuts into your practice time. As a performer, however, you have the opportunity to sell coaching and ads to the audience you've built. Guys like Day[9] and Totalbiscuit are working around the clock on their content, and look how often they're able to release it. That speaks to their work ethic, and I'm sure when they started working that hard they weren't thinking about money at all. Now, after countless hours of work with no monetary return (but big community/audience support), they have the opportunity to monetize their content and be compensated for some of it.
It's nice to talk about the end game occasionally, but please don't fixate on it. Consider what it takes to get there, and if you are interested in putting that kind of work in, make that your fixation. You can have an end-game goal, but never lose sight of the fact that it's going to take a hell of a lot of work.
On February 03 2011 10:55 chenchen wrote: lolwut . . almost every Brood War pro peaked in their early twenties and started disappearing from the scene by 24-ish. It has a lot to do with reaction time, speed, and decision making.
There are several possible reasons that might have been the case other than raw reaction time. Reaction time does start to decline in the early 20s but not by very much, and cognitive tasks are faster and more accurate at 24 than at 20.
However, if there's a strong expectation in the pro gamer culture, whether founded or not, that people are washed up after 22, that's going to have all kinds of impacts. It'll impact a player's confidence, it'll impact their choices about how and what to work on in practices, and it probably goes along with players being systematically eased out by team management as well, both because of the concern that they're "slowing down" and to make room for new faces.
Also, how sensitive Brood War was to raw reaction time may not be a great predictor for how sensitive Starcraft 2 is, because of the ways SC2 has simplified a lot of the control mechanics. Compared to the 19 year old, I'd expect to see better decision making and faster decisions from mid-20s players, not worse, but possibly mechanics that were slightly slower (to a degree that might amount to a few percent reduction in APM, not much more than that.)
If the only thing you've done in the last 15 years is play videogames you're going to have a hard time getting a 'real' job.
Pretty much 100% false.
First off, it opens up a ton of doors to work in a variety of fields that involve gaming, anything from working directly with gaming companies to working with say computer parts manufacturers as head of their sponsorship divisions etc. Someone who managed to have a very successful pro gaming career would know the ins and outs of the industry and that right there could continue with a living.
Furthermore, just because you are a progamer doesn't mean your some moron who has no other skills outside of clicking a mouse. Actually most of these top pro gamers from my experience are super bright people, have gone to college, they understand and process things quickly and offer a skill set that is quite unique and a skill set I'd much rather have than a lot of these degrees plenty of people come out of school with today that are worthless.
Everyone understands that you aren't a pro gamer forever, but if you can do it for a period of time, support yourself, have fun doing it then why not. Live the dream as long as you can and then you move on from there. To me it isn't much different than a triple A baseball player that never makes the majors and gets that big payday. A comment like that is narrow minded and shows a complete lack for understanding how the real world actually works.
Having graduated college and being moderately intelligent are hardly noteworthy when it comes to landing a good job. These are simple, basic requirements. Progamers have not only been away from whatever they studied for 10+ years, but they likely have no experience in research or internships that even a junior or senior in college would have.
I'm not saying that you can't enjoy being a progamer for 10+ years then get a job in gaming that you love, nor that you can't be a progamer for 10+ years then work some traditional career, but you are going to have a much harder time getting back into a normal job than someone who didn't take a 10 year detour to begin with. The "unique skills" that you get from gaming just don't translate to a normal job and even if they did, employers aren't going to see it that way.
I always get confused when people say "Ohh this and that will never get accepted by society as a legit sport or activity". What you are forgetting is that in a couple of years the CEO's and such for all those big companies are our generation, the generation that has GROWN UP with more than 1 computer at home and seen the power of gaming and the internet as a whole.
I reckong in 10-15 years pro gaming is gonna be were poker is today.
On February 03 2011 00:57 theBullFrog wrote: hd and husky do not make $100k a year.. someone said that once and HD said No. lol
No.
They make over that. At least Husky does.
Do the math. $1.50/1k views. At least 200k views a day. $300/day x 365 = $109,500/yr
Where are you getting $1.50/1k views? And 200k views a day? Even if these numbers are accurate, which I doubt they are, you would still have to figure in taxes, which would be over 1/3 of your final figure. I am positive your numbers are inflated, though, especially on daily views.
Edit: Also, the hits on their videos are higher than G4's prime time ratings, so they deserve to be paid a lot more than $60k/year if they're even getting close to that.
Hm why do so many sc players play poker? Not getting the connection lol.
I also got to think that sc fans are difficult to make ad revenue off. Like how this site had to say please consider not blocking our ads because a sc fan is much more likely to know how to do that stuff than a fan of say...football.
If husky makes more than the pro gamers he so expertly analyzes that is truly a shame. Good for him though I guess.
personally im living on about 1000$ a month, everything included (rent, food etc), and so just looking at coaching rates which are 20$ an hour at the very least, and up to 40-50 for some NA players (idras at 150), id only have to coach 50 hours a month, without a team salary or anything, which is 2 hours a day.
and its not even like coaching is wasting time, because youre gonna be playing with guys that are serious enough about this to pay money, so generally that means theyre pretty good.
On February 03 2011 00:57 theBullFrog wrote: hd and husky do not make $100k a year.. someone said that once and HD said No. lol
No.
They make over that. At least Husky does.
Do the math. $1.50/1k views. At least 200k views a day. $300/day x 365 = $109,500/yr
wheres your source for those stats?
That might be on the high side, but if you do some research you can find about how much youtubers make. If Husky is making half that hes still living pretty damn good for some dude who just started commentating BW vods because he loved it. I am not a fan of his style, but I am very happy hes been so successful.
The best way for a progamer to make money is to do well in tournaments and capitalize off that to charge high amounts for lessons. Or be very good and get a team to provide a good salary. There is not much job security as a pro gamer, but as long as somebody is sponsored and getting a salary they should be living comfortably. Maybe never rich, but whatever they should be doing their dream job.
Tell me what people think about my completely ignorant calculations...
I was doing a bit of thinking about Idra's streaming, and I think he makes some really decent money doing it.
He gets around 5000 peak viewers on his 2 hour nightly commentary stream. Let's say 2500 of them have on adblocker. I pulled the number out of my ass but I think it's fairly conservative.
If he makes 1 cent per adview, again something I think is conservative, and he gets 2500 people to each watch 10 ads over the course of a 2 hour viewing, he's making $250 dollars a day, or $125 dollars an hour.
Did I go completely wrong somewhere? Progamers might not be rich, but...man it sure does pay to be Idra.
On February 04 2011 15:08 SimDawg wrote: Tell me what people think about my completely ignorant calculations...
I was doing a bit of thinking about Idra's streaming, and I think he makes some really decent money doing it.
He gets around 5000 peak viewers on his 2 hour nightly commentary stream. Let's say 2500 of them have on adblocker. I pulled the number out of my ass but I think it's fairly conservative.
If he makes 1 cent per adview, again something I think is conservative, and he gets 2500 people to each watch 10 ads over the course of a 2 hour viewing, he's making $250 dollars a day, or $125 dollars an hour.
Did I go completely wrong somewhere? Progamers might not be rich, but...man it sure does pay to be Idra.
You think they pay 1c per adview is conservative? Sounds outrageously high to me. People would stream 16 hours a day if that were the case
On February 03 2011 07:08 Holcan wrote: You act like eSports is a booming industry, it isnt. And gaining a few thousand viewers since sc2s release isnt changing anything either, outside sponsors dont want to see viewership in the tens of thousands, they want to see viewership in the 100,000's or more.
Esports will never become socially acceptable, especially with some of the current poster childs, (heres looking at you hostile !) Outside sponsors will always view this as a niche market, the most we can ever hope for is inside sponsorships (steelseries, razer) and related sponsorships (Intel, AMD). Look at how hard the CGS failed when they brought in outside sponsors.
Sure its possible to make a profit off esports, but you definitely wont be able to pay rent, afford to marry, and do all the things you can do with a 9-5 job, unless you are the very top percentile of players, and if you are a top percentile, you need to travel to a foreign country to compete.
A good example is Axslav, he plays for Team EG, one of the, if not the pinnacle of NA esports, yet he has a career outside of esports.
E-sports are largely socially accepted in some european countries not to mention the way it was in korea a few years back. I think you're focusing too much on current conditions in the US and even then fail to notice how everything's been moving forward. Notice how OSL was sponsored by a fucking airline company and GSL having sony ericsson for their main sponsor?
It's besides the point though, sponsors will obviously try to reach a specific demographic namely gamers in this case and I don't see why that would be a hinderance? More people play video games, e-sports keeps growing, more gaming related products get purchased, more gaming companies stand to make more profit off of advertisement/sponsorships. Why do you think big companies like razer and steelseries sprung up fairly recently? Sponsorships even now aren't some useless basement-ran software websites either but HUGE corporations like
SK - Acer MYM - puma, WD, razer
Intel stepping in as the main sponsor in GSL recently. Etc, etc.
And like some other guy said it sort of goes without saying that only the top will be able to sustain a decent living by playing video games/sports without doing some sort of related work purely for profit.
In don't know how it is where you live but in sweden the old stereotypical fat/greasy/generally disgusting nerd image washed off ages ago. Most people play video games in some shape or form, let's look at some swedish gaming superheroes.
As much as I agree or not that's ONE fat player, I followed the css league for a long time, 95% of them are just as skinny as most other pro gamers that get attention.
On February 02 2011 06:12 echO [W] wrote: Pro-gaming today, in my opinion has the same vibe as professional sports did in the early times, if I remember correctly, professional athletes then did not compete or devote their entire lives to the game, they still had regular jobs and such because the money was not there yet for it to be a full time job.
I feel that right now that is where pro-gaming is at. A lot of people do it while having another job, but a few are lucky enough to do it full time.
Well I think of a lot of professional sports which aren't really "popular" are not that different to starcraft even today. e.g. Athletics, Swimming. Basically, because people dont care about them like football or basketball, there is no inherent money in Athletics or Swimming. Some countries pay their athletes well because they want gold medals in the Olympic but many don't. Hell, you probably cant even give lessons as easily as in SC2 because you have to be in person and not that many people bother to pay for personal coaching in swimming or athletics.
Even for popular sports, you will struggle to be good enough to earn enough to equal a 9-5.
Even in a massively popular sport like baseball or the NFL as late as 40 years ago, the vast majority of players worked regular jobs during the offseason. It was only with the advent of free agency in both sports that really allowed the astronomical salaries you see today (since they are worth that much to the team owners.)
It really is unfortunate Husky makes so much despite being such a bad caster. I wonder how much Day9 makes off his ustream/blip accounts? His youtube is barely updated since his daily doesn't work well on that site.
On February 03 2011 00:57 theBullFrog wrote: hd and husky do not make $100k a year.. someone said that once and HD said No. lol
No.
They make over that. At least Husky does.
Do the math. $1.50/1k views. At least 200k views a day. $300/day x 365 = $109,500/yr
Where are you getting $1.50/1k views? And 200k views a day? Even if these numbers are accurate, which I doubt they are, you would still have to figure in taxes, which would be over 1/3 of your final figure. I am positive your numbers are inflated, though, especially on daily views.
Edit: Also, the hits on their videos are higher than G4's prime time ratings, so they deserve to be paid a lot more than $60k/year if they're even getting close to that.
You never are supposed to factor in taxes when you talk about someones income. If we say a CEO has a one million dollar salary he's not receiving the full one million.
On February 03 2011 12:57 Rylaji wrote: I always get confused when people say "Ohh this and that will never get accepted by society as a legit sport or activity". What you are forgetting is that in a couple of years the CEO's and such for all those big companies are our generation, the generation that has GROWN UP with more than 1 computer at home and seen the power of gaming and the internet as a whole.
I reckong in 10-15 years pro gaming is gonna be were poker is today.
No it won't because Poker stays the same. New games come out every month and new interest moves on after a few months for the most part. For this reason, pro-gaming is never going to be a stable long term profession for even the absolute best players in any particular game. That's not to say that it's not a worthwhile time investment, but ultimately you have to be the one to decide whether gambling away however many years of your life on a fleeting dream is actually worth it. Gaming is certainly going to become a more acceptable part of our culture in the years to come, but on the professional level, it will always just be flashes in the pan.
On February 04 2011 15:08 SimDawg wrote: If he makes 1 cent per adview, again something I think is conservative.
Who the hell makes $.01 per ad view? That's ridiculously high. Are you talking about getting paid for ads that people actually click on? Because that's going to be FAR less in number than the actual views or subscribers a video gets.
To be big enough to start paying pros decent money e-sports will have to be broadcast on tv. From what i've seen nasl ratings were reasonable at 30k but if you look at even a piece of junk tv show they get over 2 million views pretty easily and there income comes from advertisement revenue. If e-ports can continue to get bigger and the broadcast quality increases they may be picked up by a tv broadcaster and become the same size as poker has obviously become.
Also alot of these people comparing poker to sc2 is strange because the prize pools are so huge in poker due to the buy ins the players have to come up with as well as bigger sponsorships deals.
You forgot the big up-and-coming category: streaming/VODs. So far the people making the most doing stuff like that are casters/commentators who are either ex-progamers or never were, but plenty of pros are making a little cash on the side streaming while they ladder and it's definitely a big piece of the financial equation when it comes to the rise of NA esports.
On April 18 2011 12:21 toasti0 wrote: To be big enough to start paying pros decent money e-sports will have to be broadcast on tv. From what i've seen nasl ratings were reasonable at 30k but if you look at even a piece of junk tv show they get over 2 million views pretty easily and there income comes from advertisement revenue. If e-ports can continue to get bigger and the broadcast quality increases they may be picked up by a tv broadcaster and become the same size as poker has obviously become.
Also alot of these people comparing poker to sc2 is strange because the prize pools are so huge in poker due to the buy ins the players have to come up with as well as bigger sponsorships deals.
Interesting necro, especially with all the new tourneys coming out with massive prize pools. I think making 40k+/year doesn't sound incredibly unreasonable for alot of average progamers who are on sponsored teams and do decently (when you consider that teams pay for housing, food, travel, etc. if that is even true haha) but obviously top-tier players could make alot of money depending on who they are/how well they do. I'd have no trouble believing that somebody like say iNcontroL makes six figures between coaching/casting/tournament winnings/team sponsorships/streaming/i think he has an extra job for EG?/possible salary from EG/food housing travel costs paid for/etc.
Of course, I could be entirely wrong about every single thing I just wrote and they could be dirtpoor like every other college/highschool kid
On April 18 2011 12:32 Loki57 wrote: I'd have no trouble believing that somebody like say iNcontroL makes six figures between coaching/casting/tournament winnings/team sponsorships/streaming/i think he has an extra job for EG?/possible salary from EG/food housing travel costs paid for/etc.
LOL.
Ridiculous. Do you have a job and recognize the value of a dollar?
Its nothing. Idra will have to go back to college in 8-10 years, thats if he even stays top of the NA scene. Its not worth it unless your getting your college degree at the sametime for a steady job.
I had a chance to go at the very least semi-pro on bw days, I was 19 in 2002, the scene wasnt that profitable, specially in my area. Even tho my brain was still in overdrive, I chose to continue my studies and be a sucessful civil engineer, and I dont regret it at all financially. My office is doing great, we have our main contracts stretched up till 2023 (lol), I'm working smart not hard, and I could spend a lot of time practicing sc2 in order to play competitively while still managing the office, but there's no picture I paint where it is viable time-wise.
Guess when you're 28, your priorities change a lot from when you are 19
I'm not sure I'd choose to go pro on sc2.. the current imbalance could jeopardize your whole carreer...
Not that many teams pay them and the vast majority of them are not enough to live on. I know a bit of detail about some other players and I'll just say it surprises me a bit.
it depends on how much they charge/ how much free time they have/how many people want their time
You have to play a couple hours a day, that's a given, but coaching can cost a decent amount depending who you get it from. I see prices anywhere from 150 to 15 dollars a hour. Depending where you sit, and how many people you can coach a day, you can definitely get a decent amount.
I make more coaching than I would working any where else 3 hour workdays at that. Whether or not I can juggle all 3 when I go back to school next semester, well, that's a different story. We'll see I suppose.
On April 18 2011 12:57 Pokebunny wrote: A word about team salaries:
Not that many teams pay them and the vast majority of them are not enough to live on. I know a bit of detail about some other players and I'll just say it surprises me a bit.
This
I used to play Call of Duty, Quake, and Counter Strike all of which had teams that had paid salaries and contracts. The "pro gamer" (unless they are the tip top of their game such as Complexity in Counter Strike or Rapha in Quake) makes a surprisingly low amount of money. Some make barely over minimum wage which can hardly support a lifestyle like this.
It would be great if we had someone from EG or Liquid comment on this.
Dude, of course incontrol doesn't make six figures. That would be absolutely ridiculous if he did, since Flash makes about that much. Keep in mind that incontrol may live quite well for a progamer, but another income contributes to that, because his girlfriend runs a consulting/life coaching business.
There's no stability in pro gaming right now, due to the complete fragility of the games themselves. For all we know, this game will turn out to be a flop and nobody will be playing it in 2 years.... That's currently the stage that SC2 is at, complete uncertainty. People mainly make money from tournament winnings (100 - 500 per week is the best you'll ever get on average), streaming (next to zero, advertisements barely pay for your Internet cost), and a team salary if you are lucky (25 000 maximum).
Assuming you get 48 weeks of pay, thats roughly (250*48) + 25 000 + (500) = 37 500 dollars per year, not including taxes. I included 500 dollars of streaming revenue in there for generosity's sake. Working backwards, assuming you work 6 days per week and get paid for 8 hours per day, figures which are standard for most low-end jobs, that's 18.7 dollars per hour. High school students make that much money at some positions these days. Also, keep in mind these are absolute maximum numbers.
I didn't even include taxes in this calculation. In Canada, where I'm from, you would pay 15% of that in just personal income tax, not including unemployment insurance and your Canada pension plan. That brings you down to ~ 32 000 dollars per year take home. Some people can live on that, if you are willing to live in an apartment that's roughly the size of a shoebox and eat canned food every day. Nothing against those guys, but that's not for 99% of the population.
Pro gaming simply isn't a viable career yet. Think about how many people can make a living for themselves by playing video games. Less than 100 people globally, for sure. Your average good player like Sheth or Kiwikaki can't afford to live on their tournament winnings, not a chance.
The money in sports these days (and esports is included), is all from sponsorships. Some people have problems with that, but it's simply a fact. Athletes in respected and established sports make 90% of their income from sponsorship deals and contracts, rather than tournament winnings. Pro golfers are a prime example of this, and it's about 100 000 times easier to make a living playing golf than make a living as a pro gamer.
A lot of people in this thread have said it already, but I'll say it again. It's not a high-income life. Many high school students make more take home pay on a weekly basis, since their expenses are much lower.
Its like a professional session musician, you make 85% or more of your money from teaching. But like a musician, you have to have your hand in as much as possible if you really want to make a living at it..
Someone like InControl, ontop of tourney wins, coaching and sponsors, he also tries to get his hand in commentating and hosting events like NASL.. Now i dont know his contract details, so not sure if they are paying him, but Im sure hes getting something from it, at the very least major exposure for his coaching.
But coaching is becoming massive in SC2 from what I can see.. I've already made some good chunk of cash from coaching and mainly from people randomly asking me, not me promoting anywhere. Not to mention, I've only been top 200 in November/haven't played much at all since... Im sure it would be very reasonable to make at least $200 a month in coaching for any player who is mannered, intelligent and in Grandmaster or top end of MLG/etc tournies (IE talented in their play, not just getting GM from one-build)
not alot, but add it in with everything else, you can live off this game if you are smart (and dont live expensively)
A few streamers actually make pretty decent money apparently. It was stated somewhere that you make ~$2 / 1000 viewers / commercial. IdrA regularly streams for 2-3 hours with upwards of 10k viewers and runs commercials after every game. I wouldn't be surprised if he made $200-$300 (or more?) in the 3 hours he streams via ad revenue. Destiny probably makes a similar amount daily, just requires a shit load more time.
I will agree though, for more streaming doesn't really generate very much income.
ROOT.Destiny did an AMA on reddit.com a few weeks back where he answered this question. I don't remember exact figures, but it was something much higher than I expected.
I think if you stream a lot, with the amount of viewers he has (+how often he commercials), you can make a small sum of cash. He also coaches a lot, and streams coaching.
JTV does 0.04 cents per commercial - which is $0.0004 per view on his stream. Therefore if you have 2500 viewers you make $1 per commercial. If you're like Huk and put a commercial after every game you'll average maybe $4 dollars an hour. His streaming schedule is usually 4-6 hours a day. Which is $500-$600 dollars per month.
That's about what Huk makes as his viewer counts average at that, which I mean isn't bad considering he doesn't pay for living expenses, ofcourse Im not certain what kind of share, if any tl.net takes from that.
I think there are a lot of opportunities. And yeah there are some very nice prize pools to be gained and even those $100 dollar tournaments are good.
I mean $100 is not little money, there are also the big tournaments where I think all top 16 players get at least some money, like $300 or $500 which is quite a bit as well.
Also there are the showmatches with like only 2 players and prizes like $100 and $150 dollars.
Then there is also the streaming part, they actually get a good amount from stream views and then there is the coaching. I mean giving someone few tips for an hour for $30 or $40 sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
say if the average rate was $25 per hour of coaching, if you give like 2 lessons every day, that is $250 per week and $1400 a months, add to that the streaming money, some tournament and showmatch money, maybe you also got a sponsor and you are looking at around $1700-$2000+ per month.
Now I don't know how much is that is US, but here in Europe I think its quite a lot in most of the countries.
I mean MC is pretty rich right now, I mean he's got $175.000 dollars in his bank account right now.
And lets not kid our self, this is a competitive e-sport, if you are not good enough to win in tournaments, then you should probably stop being a progamer and find another job. Ultimately you need to win to attract sponsors and be able to sustain yourself.
On April 18 2011 13:23 Skillz_Man wrote: JTV does 0.04 cents per commercial - which is $0.0004 per view on his stream. Therefore if you have 2500 viewers you make $1 per commercial. If you're like Huk and put a commercial after every game you'll average maybe $4 dollars an hour. His streaming schedule is usually 4-6 hours a day. Which is $500-$600 dollars per month.
That's about what Huk makes as his viewer counts average at that, which I mean isn't bad considering he doesn't pay for living expenses, ofcourse Im not certain what kind of share, if any tl.net takes from that.
Do you have a source for this (Inside proof, word of mouth)? I've heard Destiny say before he makes anywhere from $150-$300 / day which doesn't make any sense according to your figures. How does JTV paying $0.04 / commercial have any relevance if the revenue is calculated purely by viewer count?
Is the payout the same for every streamer or do high volume streamers see more % from the ad revenue?
On April 18 2011 13:23 Skillz_Man wrote: JTV does 0.04 cents per commercial - which is $0.0004 per view on his stream. Therefore if you have 2500 viewers you make $1 per commercial. If you're like Huk and put a commercial after every game you'll average maybe $4 dollars an hour. His streaming schedule is usually 4-6 hours a day. Which is $500-$600 dollars per month.
That's about what Huk makes as his viewer counts average at that, which I mean isn't bad considering he doesn't pay for living expenses, ofcourse Im not certain what kind of share, if any tl.net takes from that.
On April 18 2011 13:23 Skillz_Man wrote: JTV does 0.04 cents per commercial - which is $0.0004 per view on his stream. Therefore if you have 2500 viewers you make $1 per commercial. If you're like Huk and put a commercial after every game you'll average maybe $4 dollars an hour. His streaming schedule is usually 4-6 hours a day. Which is $500-$600 dollars per month.
That's about what Huk makes as his viewer counts average at that, which I mean isn't bad considering he doesn't pay for living expenses, ofcourse Im not certain what kind of share, if any tl.net takes from that.
Do you have a source for this (Inside proof, word of mouth)? I've heard Destiny say before he makes anywhere from $150-$300 / day which doesn't make any sense according to your figures. How does JTV paying $0.04 / commercial have any relevance if the revenue is calculated purely by viewer count?
Is the payout the same for every streamer or do high volume streamers see more % from the ad revenue?
They pay 0.04 cents per viewer per commercial is what I ment.
And $2/1000 viewers seems far too high. That's a rate of 0.2 cents an ad. Anyhow, I just assumed that's what every streamer got since I asked two close friends a while back. Maybe if you partner up with JTV they give you better rates.
And as for Destiny, 150-300 from just streaming? Or does that include his lessons, because that seems insanely high.
On April 18 2011 13:23 Skillz_Man wrote: JTV does 0.04 cents per commercial - which is $0.0004 per view on his stream. Therefore if you have 2500 viewers you make $1 per commercial. If you're like Huk and put a commercial after every game you'll average maybe $4 dollars an hour. His streaming schedule is usually 4-6 hours a day. Which is $500-$600 dollars per month.
That's about what Huk makes as his viewer counts average at that, which I mean isn't bad considering he doesn't pay for living expenses, ofcourse Im not certain what kind of share, if any tl.net takes from that.
Do you have a source for this (Inside proof, word of mouth)? I've heard Destiny say before he makes anywhere from $150-$300 / day which doesn't make any sense according to your figures. How does JTV paying $0.04 / commercial have any relevance if the revenue is calculated purely by viewer count?
Is the payout the same for every streamer or do high volume streamers see more % from the ad revenue?
They pay 0.04 cents per viewer per commercial is what I ment.
And $2/1000 viewers seems far too high. That's a rate of 0.2 cents an ad. Anyhow, I just assumed that's what every streamer got since I asked two close friends a while back. Maybe if you partner up with JTV they give you better rates.
And as for Destiny, 150-300 from just streaming? Or does that include his lessons, because that seems insanely high.
Just from streaming apparently. His living wage is his streaming income. From what I've seen everywhere, it's around $2/1000 viewers. Hard to say though as none of us know for sure and I bet it's against a NDA for streamers to come in and tell us.
I believe Destiny has mentioned on his stream that he gets about 0.2 cents ($0.002) per viewer per commercial and that he averages about $4 per ad. Assuming 3 ads per hour, 12$ per hour + coaching (he streams his coaching sessions which means those hours are worth $40-50 per hour - coach fee + ad fee), it is probably not unreasonable to think that he makes about $1200-$1500 per month on streaming.
(Typically, when doing hourly to annual conversions, you take your hourly rate x 2,000 (40 hour weeks x 50 weeks) / 12 to figure out your monthly income - in this case, $12 x 2,000 = 24,000 / 12 = $1200, and then another $300 for coaching seems a reasonable estimate).
If gamers have a great personality they can make money from streaming as well. I think the amount of money made is all based on personality. Either you have a great personality and get lots of fans or you are really good and win tournaments.
On February 02 2011 07:55 TT1 wrote: casters make like 10x more money than top gamers
Pretty much this. With the amount of money Youtube gives out for moderate traffic videos, casters like Husky could easily make up to $100k/yr. Not a bad deal considering that's about 5-10 hours of work per week.
NPR featured Day[9] in an article about YouTube celebs that make >$100k a yr from YouTube. they didn't specifically say HE does...but it was at least 1/2-way implied.
I'd like to chime in and really tell you guys to NOT be jealous if they do make good money. I know 99% of them don't but let's just wish Incontrol made 6 figures. Let's wish Huk or any pro gamer did because that would be a huge step in e-sports in general.
In CS pros had that salary because some rich guy came along and paid them for it. That's awesome but that's not how we want it done. We need the whole scene to balance out. I do believe day9 and husky easily make over 50k a year..100k? maybe getting close. Husky and HD really pioneered the youtube casting so props to them. Don't hate, they brought such a huge audience to the scene. There's so many people that watch SC and don't even own the game! That's awesome IMO.
Coaching is def where the money is at but maybe one day we can see pro gamers making 50k a year to bring us entertainment that we crave. If sports people can make millions, why can't one day a pro gamer at least make 50k?
I don't see it happening in our generation but hopefully in the next and the big names of right now can pave the way for them.
I'm guessing he meant that casters get money from just casting at events. Many events would ask a specific caster if they are available and they would pay and fly them out (usually expense paid).
According to that article, Day[9] is one of many Youtube streamers that pull in $100k+ JUST from Youtube.
Add in money from Justin.tv, Blip.tv, Casting events, merchandise endorsing/advertising, etc etc...If the $100k figure from NPR is correct, I'd be surprised if he wasn't pulling in close to double that yearly...if the initial numbers are correct.
Though, that's not a bash on Day[9], I say if it's true, awesome for him! Anyone who says otherwise is just jealous.
Though, I would say, casters who ARE pulling in 6-figure salaries should probably be kicking at least a LITTLE back to the pros who's videos and reps they're using in non-event activities (Dailies, analysis shows, etc), just to be fair.
On April 19 2011 04:35 Alaz wrote: I'd like to chime in and really tell you guys to NOT be jealous if they do make good money. I know 99% of them don't but let's just wish Incontrol made 6 figures. Let's wish Huk or any pro gamer did because that would be a huge step in e-sports in general.
In CS pros had that salary because some rich guy came along and paid them for it. That's awesome but that's not how we want it done. We need the whole scene to balance out. I do believe day9 and husky easily make over 50k a year..100k? maybe getting close. Husky and HD really pioneered the youtube casting so props to them. Don't hate, they brought such a huge audience to the scene. There's so many people that watch SC and don't even own the game! That's awesome IMO.
Coaching is def where the money is at but maybe one day we can see pro gamers making 50k a year to bring us entertainment that we crave. If sports people can make millions, why can't one day a pro gamer at least make 50k?
I don't see it happening in our generation but hopefully in the next and the big names of right now can pave the way for them.
I'm not sure people are jealous; I think a lot of people don't believe that NA progamers are skillful enough to be worthy of a high salary in the first place, considering none could compete with Koreans in BW to begin with and the same looks possibly to be true in the long run in SC2 as well. If they're not the highest skilled around do we have to believe they should be paid a lot just to 'support esports'? It's a small niche after all not everyone can get paid massively.
On April 19 2011 06:06 infinity2k9 wrote: I'm not sure people are jealous; I think a lot of people don't believe that NA progamers are skillful enough to be worthy of a high salary in the first place, considering none could compete with Koreans in BW to begin with and the same looks possibly to be true in the long run in SC2 as well. If they're not the highest skilled around do we have to believe they should be paid a lot just to 'support esports'? It's a small niche after all not everyone can get paid massively.
I agree with this post. It's easy to spot the difference in the level of play of a FPVOD of a SCBW pro vs a SC2 pro. Yes, the former has been out for over a decade, but the mentality behind has been lost in SC2.
Also, supporting esports has got to go. It's ridiculous how people use that argument basically in every thread. So many games are played at a high level, and for which there are many tournaments every week. Right now, Starcraft 2 is no different in that respect. Yes, injecting money into your favorite game's tournaments will make it seem bigger, but it's artificial. In the long run it will die out, unless more people get interested. It's not your job to get people interested.
How long do you think someone can make revenue off of ads on JTV? Unless they perform at an incredibly high level, viewers will eventually move on. And if they do get among the best, they will certainly not stream anymore (see SCBW pro replays) because of their more refined builds and plays. Making $50k a year is good money when you're young, but for a single year it's insignificant in someone's life.
On April 19 2011 04:35 Alaz wrote: I'd like to chime in and really tell you guys to NOT be jealous if they do make good money. I know 99% of them don't but let's just wish Incontrol made 6 figures. Let's wish Huk or any pro gamer did because that would be a huge step in e-sports in general.
In CS pros had that salary because some rich guy came along and paid them for it. That's awesome but that's not how we want it done. We need the whole scene to balance out. I do believe day9 and husky easily make over 50k a year..100k? maybe getting close. Husky and HD really pioneered the youtube casting so props to them. Don't hate, they brought such a huge audience to the scene. There's so many people that watch SC and don't even own the game! That's awesome IMO.
Coaching is def where the money is at but maybe one day we can see pro gamers making 50k a year to bring us entertainment that we crave. If sports people can make millions, why can't one day a pro gamer at least make 50k?
I don't see it happening in our generation but hopefully in the next and the big names of right now can pave the way for them.
I'm not sure people are jealous; I think a lot of people don't believe that NA progamers are skillful enough to be worthy of a high salary in the first place, considering none could compete with Koreans in BW to begin with and the same looks possibly to be true in the long run in SC2 as well. If they're not the highest skilled around do we have to believe they should be paid a lot just to 'support esports'? It's a small niche after all not everyone can get paid massively.
Koreans are free to come over here if they think the money and opportunities would be better. Guess what? I get paid more than someone in Florida does doing the same thing. This is RL. Even if you put your blood, sweat, and tears into something no one is going to come over, pat you on the back, and hand you money.
On February 02 2011 07:55 TT1 wrote: casters make like 10x more money than top gamers
How did caster make money?
other than those youtube guys get google ad and TGS.
other than those few Day9/ tastosis ( DJwheat has a job i believe)
I have no fucking idea how caster making money.
Ad rates from Youtube partnership. Blip.tv. Streaming sites like Ustream or Justin.tv. Being paid to go to events.
Artosis himself says he likes the security that casting brings, but wants to compete anyway.
On April 18 2011 13:04 Boundless wrote: Dude, of course incontrol doesn't make six figures. That would be absolutely ridiculous if he did, since Flash makes about that much. Keep in mind that incontrol may live quite well for a progamer, but another income contributes to that, because his girlfriend runs a consulting/life coaching business.
There's no stability in pro gaming right now, due to the complete fragility of the games themselves. For all we know, this game will turn out to be a flop and nobody will be playing it in 2 years.... That's currently the stage that SC2 is at, complete uncertainty. People mainly make money from tournament winnings (100 - 500 per week is the best you'll ever get on average), streaming (next to zero, advertisements barely pay for your Internet cost), and a team salary if you are lucky (25 000 maximum).
Assuming you get 48 weeks of pay, thats roughly (250*48) + 25 000 + (500) = 37 500 dollars per year, not including taxes. I included 500 dollars of streaming revenue in there for generosity's sake. Working backwards, assuming you work 6 days per week and get paid for 8 hours per day, figures which are standard for most low-end jobs, that's 18.7 dollars per hour. High school students make that much money at some positions these days. Also, keep in mind these are absolute maximum numbers.
I didn't even include taxes in this calculation. In Canada, where I'm from, you would pay 15% of that in just personal income tax, not including unemployment insurance and your Canada pension plan. That brings you down to ~ 32 000 dollars per year take home. Some people can live on that, if you are willing to live in an apartment that's roughly the size of a shoebox and eat canned food every day. Nothing against those guys, but that's not for 99% of the population.
Pro gaming simply isn't a viable career yet. Think about how many people can make a living for themselves by playing video games. Less than 100 people globally, for sure. Your average good player like Sheth or Kiwikaki can't afford to live on their tournament winnings, not a chance.
The money in sports these days (and esports is included), is all from sponsorships. Some people have problems with that, but it's simply a fact. Athletes in respected and established sports make 90% of their income from sponsorship deals and contracts, rather than tournament winnings. Pro golfers are a prime example of this, and it's about 100 000 times easier to make a living playing golf than make a living as a pro gamer.
A lot of people in this thread have said it already, but I'll say it again. It's not a high-income life. Many high school students make more take home pay on a weekly basis, since their expenses are much lower.
How old are you? Probably not enough to be of working age to know how much it actually costs to make a living.
$30k is plenty. Plenty enough to live in more than a "shoebox." California minimum wage is $8/hr. $16k per year full time. Hundreds of thousands make a living off of this. You can pay the rent with that and eat out frequently. More room for luxuries if you room with someone and carpool. Keeping in mind the cost of living in California is absolutely absurd.
I seriously doubt day9 makes anywhere near 100k per year. You need tens of millions of views on YouTube PER video with LOTS of video's getting millions of views constantly to be able to pull in any sort of money via YouTube. There is a website I found that closely estimates YouTube partners income (based on calculations when the guy was a partner himself); Husky was making ~$5-600 / day when the baneling song came out. I'll see if I can find the website...
I think streaming also helps you make money. That's why programmers stream so they can use the ads to make them their money. Otherwise why else would they be wanting to stream their practice sessions right?
On April 19 2011 06:05 Reithan wrote: According to that article, Day[9] is one of many Youtube streamers that pull in $100k+ JUST from Youtube.
I know exactly which article you're talking about, and that's not what that article says.
The article says that Day[9] is an online streamer, and there exist online streamers who have made upwards of $100,000 per year.
The article did not say that Day[9] was one of those who made $100,000 per year.
I'm quoting this because quoted things tend to get a little more attention.
This article you're all referring to does NOT say that Day9 makes 100k a year. It gives a top10 of Youtube Celebs who are going to be POISED to make that much, in several years, if they remain popular, and actually try to actively cash in on their viewers.
The article does NOT say that he makes 100k a year...
Bah I can't find the website again. If anyone wants to try looking on Google, there is a website that updates the top 200 YouTube partners earnings per video per day and you can search the database which is updated every 5 minutes or so.
I think it was something like www.u2be.com or www.you2be.com (obviously isn't either of those). I spent 45 mins looking on Google and can't find it again... Maybe YouTube nuked it? Someone find it, we need clarity!!
The standard progamer makes a living off coaching, destiny, for example, is probably one of the few that can make it from streaming alone. He has a personality that entertains a lot of people.
But for people who can't pull 2k+ viewers consistently, they support themselves from coaching. Streaming gets you some money, but it's not enough to support yourself on. It doesn't make you rich, but 30-40k a year isn't bad money from coaching. I "work" 3 hours a day coaching, and spend the rest of my time either playing, or doing w/e. Most gamers are young, they make more coaching than they would at any other job they can get. All and all it's a decent earning compared to other jobs that I could get right now, and it's enough to where I don't live in a "shoebox" as one guy stated :S
On April 18 2011 13:04 Boundless wrote: Dude, of course incontrol doesn't make six figures. That would be absolutely ridiculous if he did, since Flash makes about that much. Keep in mind that incontrol may live quite well for a progamer, but another income contributes to that, because his girlfriend runs a consulting/life coaching business.
There's no stability in pro gaming right now, due to the complete fragility of the games themselves. For all we know, this game will turn out to be a flop and nobody will be playing it in 2 years.... That's currently the stage that SC2 is at, complete uncertainty. People mainly make money from tournament winnings (100 - 500 per week is the best you'll ever get on average), streaming (next to zero, advertisements barely pay for your Internet cost), and a team salary if you are lucky (25 000 maximum).
Assuming you get 48 weeks of pay, thats roughly (250*48) + 25 000 + (500) = 37 500 dollars per year, not including taxes. I included 500 dollars of streaming revenue in there for generosity's sake. Working backwards, assuming you work 6 days per week and get paid for 8 hours per day, figures which are standard for most low-end jobs, that's 18.7 dollars per hour. High school students make that much money at some positions these days. Also, keep in mind these are absolute maximum numbers.
I didn't even include taxes in this calculation. In Canada, where I'm from, you would pay 15% of that in just personal income tax, not including unemployment insurance and your Canada pension plan. That brings you down to ~ 32 000 dollars per year take home. Some people can live on that, if you are willing to live in an apartment that's roughly the size of a shoebox and eat canned food every day. Nothing against those guys, but that's not for 99% of the population.
Pro gaming simply isn't a viable career yet. Think about how many people can make a living for themselves by playing video games. Less than 100 people globally, for sure. Your average good player like Sheth or Kiwikaki can't afford to live on their tournament winnings, not a chance.
The money in sports these days (and esports is included), is all from sponsorships. Some people have problems with that, but it's simply a fact. Athletes in respected and established sports make 90% of their income from sponsorship deals and contracts, rather than tournament winnings. Pro golfers are a prime example of this, and it's about 100 000 times easier to make a living playing golf than make a living as a pro gamer.
A lot of people in this thread have said it already, but I'll say it again. It's not a high-income life. Many high school students make more take home pay on a weekly basis, since their expenses are much lower.
How old are you? Probably not enough to be of working age to know how much it actually costs to make a living.
$30k is plenty. Plenty enough to live in more than a "shoebox." California minimum wage is $8/hr. $16k per year full time. Hundreds of thousands make a living off of this. You can pay the rent with that and eat out frequently. More room for luxuries if you room with someone and carpool. Keeping in mind the cost of living in California is absolutely absurd.
Well, thank you for taking this discussion and adding an ad hominem component to it. I really appreciate that you haven't focused on the topic at hand, and have instead chose to attempt to call me a child. =D
I don't know what kind of lifestyle you think people can live on 16 000 dollars per year, but if you are honestly going to suggest that someone can pay rent, utilities, food, internet, transit, property tax, and other expenses with that much income, I don't know what to say to you other than you need to honestly go do your research. I'm not going to do a full unit-by-unit breakdown of the living expenses that the average 25 year old has, because I've simply got better things to do.... However, I will say that it takes at least twenty five to thirty thousand dollars in take home pay per year to live in Toronto, where I am currently located, assuming you aren't renting a dirty run-down room in someone's basement and eating canned food every morning, afternoon, and evening.
If you are ok with that lifestyle, and I clearly stated in my previous post that I have nothing against people who are accepting of low-income living, then by all means become a pro gamer. However, that's one of the riskiest life choices a lot of people will ever make, considering that many of them drop out of college/job training to do so.
Please, in future, read the posts you are attempting to refute and don't bother making discussions personal. TL will be better off.
On April 18 2011 13:23 Skillz_Man wrote: JTV does 0.04 cents per commercial - which is $0.0004 per view on his stream. Therefore if you have 2500 viewers you make $1 per commercial. If you're like Huk and put a commercial after every game you'll average maybe $4 dollars an hour. His streaming schedule is usually 4-6 hours a day. Which is $500-$600 dollars per month.
That's about what Huk makes as his viewer counts average at that, which I mean isn't bad considering he doesn't pay for living expenses, ofcourse Im not certain what kind of share, if any tl.net takes from that.
Do you have a source for this (Inside proof, word of mouth)? I've heard Destiny say before he makes anywhere from $150-$300 / day which doesn't make any sense according to your figures. How does JTV paying $0.04 / commercial have any relevance if the revenue is calculated purely by viewer count?
Is the payout the same for every streamer or do high volume streamers see more % from the ad revenue?
They pay 0.04 cents per viewer per commercial is what I ment.
And $2/1000 viewers seems far too high. That's a rate of 0.2 cents an ad. Anyhow, I just assumed that's what every streamer got since I asked two close friends a while back. Maybe if you partner up with JTV they give you better rates.
And as for Destiny, 150-300 from just streaming? Or does that include his lessons, because that seems insanely high.
Not sure if you realize this or not but 0.02 / per viewer is much higher than $2 / thousand.
On April 19 2011 07:50 reneg wrote: I'm quoting this because quoted things tend to get a little more attention.
This article you're all referring to does NOT say that Day9 makes 100k a year. It gives a top10 of Youtube Celebs who are going to be POISED to make that much, in several years, if they remain popular, and actually try to actively cash in on their viewers.
The article does NOT say that he makes 100k a year...
I actually stated in my FIRST post that it didn't directly say he makes 100k a year and that I doubted that figure.
I DID say that it listed him as a streamer in an article about streamers on Youtube that make $100k a year. So the implication was that he makes a good deal of money from Youtube alone. Even if it's $50k a year, that's a lot of money for a eSport caster to make from ONE OF SEVERAL sites he streams on. If he makes $50k from Youtube, $15k from Justin/Blip and another $20k from events & coaching, that's still $85k a year, which is well above the average American's income last time I checked...definitely above mine as a military service member.
On April 19 2011 07:50 reneg wrote: I'm quoting this because quoted things tend to get a little more attention.
This article you're all referring to does NOT say that Day9 makes 100k a year. It gives a top10 of Youtube Celebs who are going to be POISED to make that much, in several years, if they remain popular, and actually try to actively cash in on their viewers.
The article does NOT say that he makes 100k a year...
I actually stated in my FIRST post that it didn't directly say he makes 100k a year and that I doubted that figure.
I DID say that it listed him as a streamer in an article about streamers on Youtube that make $100k a year. So the implication was that he makes a good deal of money from Youtube alone. Even if it's $50k a year, that's a lot of money for a eSport caster to make from ONE OF SEVERAL sites he streams on. If he makes $50k from Youtube, $15k from Justin/Blip and another $20k from events & coaching, that's still $85k a year, which is well above the average American's income last time I checked...definitely above mine as a military service member.
Way too many "if"s in there to present any sort of logical argument. I don't think you understand how popular you need to be on YouTube to earn anywhere near $50k / year. $20k from events/coaching? Doubtless even at half that amount. No idea what Blip pays, but I could see $15k between JTV/Blip being plausible with JTV making up the majority.
On April 18 2011 13:04 Boundless wrote: Dude, of course incontrol doesn't make six figures. That would be absolutely ridiculous if he did, since Flash makes about that much. Keep in mind that incontrol may live quite well for a progamer, but another income contributes to that, because his girlfriend runs a consulting/life coaching business.
There's no stability in pro gaming right now, due to the complete fragility of the games themselves. For all we know, this game will turn out to be a flop and nobody will be playing it in 2 years.... That's currently the stage that SC2 is at, complete uncertainty. People mainly make money from tournament winnings (100 - 500 per week is the best you'll ever get on average), streaming (next to zero, advertisements barely pay for your Internet cost), and a team salary if you are lucky (25 000 maximum).
Assuming you get 48 weeks of pay, thats roughly (250*48) + 25 000 + (500) = 37 500 dollars per year, not including taxes. I included 500 dollars of streaming revenue in there for generosity's sake. Working backwards, assuming you work 6 days per week and get paid for 8 hours per day, figures which are standard for most low-end jobs, that's 18.7 dollars per hour. High school students make that much money at some positions these days. Also, keep in mind these are absolute maximum numbers.
I didn't even include taxes in this calculation. In Canada, where I'm from, you would pay 15% of that in just personal income tax, not including unemployment insurance and your Canada pension plan. That brings you down to ~ 32 000 dollars per year take home. Some people can live on that, if you are willing to live in an apartment that's roughly the size of a shoebox and eat canned food every day. Nothing against those guys, but that's not for 99% of the population.
Pro gaming simply isn't a viable career yet. Think about how many people can make a living for themselves by playing video games. Less than 100 people globally, for sure. Your average good player like Sheth or Kiwikaki can't afford to live on their tournament winnings, not a chance.
The money in sports these days (and esports is included), is all from sponsorships. Some people have problems with that, but it's simply a fact. Athletes in respected and established sports make 90% of their income from sponsorship deals and contracts, rather than tournament winnings. Pro golfers are a prime example of this, and it's about 100 000 times easier to make a living playing golf than make a living as a pro gamer.
A lot of people in this thread have said it already, but I'll say it again. It's not a high-income life. Many high school students make more take home pay on a weekly basis, since their expenses are much lower.
How old are you? Probably not enough to be of working age to know how much it actually costs to make a living.
$30k is plenty. Plenty enough to live in more than a "shoebox." California minimum wage is $8/hr. $16k per year full time. Hundreds of thousands make a living off of this. You can pay the rent with that and eat out frequently. More room for luxuries if you room with someone and carpool. Keeping in mind the cost of living in California is absolutely absurd.
Well, thank you for taking this discussion and adding an ad hominem component to it. I really appreciate that you haven't focused on the topic at hand, and have instead chose to attempt to call me a child. =D
I don't know what kind of lifestyle you think people can live on 16 000 dollars per year, but if you are honestly going to suggest that someone can pay rent, utilities, food, internet, transit, property tax, and other expenses with that much income, I don't know what to say to you other than you need to honestly go do your research. I'm not going to do a full unit-by-unit breakdown of the living expenses that the average 25 year old has, because I've simply got better things to do.... However, I will say that it takes at least twenty five to thirty thousand dollars in take home pay per year to live in Toronto, where I am currently located, assuming you aren't renting a dirty run-down room in someone's basement and eating canned food every morning, afternoon, and evening.
If you are ok with that lifestyle, and I clearly stated in my previous post that I have nothing against people who are accepting of low-income living, then by all means become a pro gamer. However, that's one of the riskiest life choices a lot of people will ever make, considering that many of them drop out of college/job training to do so.
Please, in future, read the posts you are attempting to refute and don't bother making discussions personal. TL will be better off.
I don't know about Toronto, but if you live somewhere where rent is cheap, you can easily live fine on 16k. It's definitely not preferable, but that's only a little less than the stipend PhD students get in the department I'm in with a regular TA-ship. But in Athens, GA you can easily rent a decent place (for one person who doesn't own a lot of stuff) for $400/month or less. Also, I eat whatever I want and splurge the most on food and spend about $300/month on that. So unless you have expensive hobbies or need to buy a new car, living on 16k a year isn't very difficult at all here.
On February 03 2011 07:08 Holcan wrote: You act like eSports is a booming industry, it isnt. And gaining a few thousand viewers since sc2s release isnt changing anything either, outside sponsors dont want to see viewership in the tens of thousands, they want to see viewership in the 100,000's or more.
Esports will never become socially acceptable, especially with some of the current poster childs, (heres looking at you hostile !) Outside sponsors will always view this as a niche market, the most we can ever hope for is inside sponsorships (steelseries, razer) and related sponsorships (Intel, AMD). Look at how hard the CGS failed when they brought in outside sponsors.
Sure its possible to make a profit off esports, but you definitely wont be able to pay rent, afford to marry, and do all the things you can do with a 9-5 job, unless you are the very top percentile of players, and if you are a top percentile, you need to travel to a foreign country to compete.
A good example is Axslav, he plays for Team EG, one of the, if not the pinnacle of NA esports, yet he has a career outside of esports.
E-sports are largely socially accepted in some european countries not to mention the way it was in korea a few years back. I think you're focusing too much on current conditions in the US and even then fail to notice how everything's been moving forward. Notice how OSL was sponsored by a fucking airline company and GSL having sony ericsson for their main sponsor?
It's besides the point though, sponsors will obviously try to reach a specific demographic namely gamers in this case and I don't see why that would be a hinderance? More people play video games, e-sports keeps growing, more gaming related products get purchased, more gaming companies stand to make more profit off of advertisement/sponsorships. Why do you think big companies like razer and steelseries sprung up fairly recently? Sponsorships even now aren't some useless basement-ran software websites either but HUGE corporations like
SK - Acer MYM - puma, WD, razer
Intel stepping in as the main sponsor in GSL recently. Etc, etc.
And like some other guy said it sort of goes without saying that only the top will be able to sustain a decent living by playing video games/sports without doing some sort of related work purely for profit.
In don't know how it is where you live but in sweden the old stereotypical fat/greasy/generally disgusting nerd image washed off ages ago. Most people play video games in some shape or form, let's look at some swedish gaming superheroes.
No homo but these are some pretty good looking dudes.
lets look at American players
and this thread is about esports in the US, which is mainly dominated by WOW and console games, both of which dont attract "good looking dudes"
:D Esports in germany/Sweden is pretty awesome tbh.
Not to bash on any player's looks, but I think this post brings up a detail that is usually overlooked due to etiquette and manners, but could be pretty valuable to the growth of E-sports.
Someone who does well at the game and is really attractive is a lot more marketable than someone who is fantastic and has a huge fan base of players that are already playing the game. Of course we can't just hope this person magically appears, so the next best step would be to have top players get a bit more consulting for wardrobe and overall appearance from trainers and designers.
It's pretty shallow, and some people might have a problem with it, but consider it a worthy sacrifice to both grow the esport you love and as a personal investment to increase your earnings if SC2 ever takes off. The stigma of unattractive nerds playing videogames is slowly fading, but it is always worthwhile to get it sped up.
Working out, eating healthy, dressing better, is something that is not only good for yourself, but good for the development of esports. I can only think of a parallel in poker, where it's almost no argument that the Cool Black Guy Phil Ivey and the chiseled muscleman Patrik Antonius have done a lot to wipe off the stigma of poker players being fat and overweight.
I'm not suggesting every player should absorb the jock and bro culture, since the appeal of being a gamer has always been a sense of uniqueness and using mind over matter, but if the goal is really to grow esports and to make it a financially worthy option, then some sacrifices should be made even if you personally don't agree with it.
On April 18 2011 13:04 Boundless wrote: Dude, of course incontrol doesn't make six figures. That would be absolutely ridiculous if he did, since Flash makes about that much. Keep in mind that incontrol may live quite well for a progamer, but another income contributes to that, because his girlfriend runs a consulting/life coaching business.
There's no stability in pro gaming right now, due to the complete fragility of the games themselves. For all we know, this game will turn out to be a flop and nobody will be playing it in 2 years.... That's currently the stage that SC2 is at, complete uncertainty. People mainly make money from tournament winnings (100 - 500 per week is the best you'll ever get on average), streaming (next to zero, advertisements barely pay for your Internet cost), and a team salary if you are lucky (25 000 maximum).
Assuming you get 48 weeks of pay, thats roughly (250*48) + 25 000 + (500) = 37 500 dollars per year, not including taxes. I included 500 dollars of streaming revenue in there for generosity's sake. Working backwards, assuming you work 6 days per week and get paid for 8 hours per day, figures which are standard for most low-end jobs, that's 18.7 dollars per hour. High school students make that much money at some positions these days. Also, keep in mind these are absolute maximum numbers.
I didn't even include taxes in this calculation. In Canada, where I'm from, you would pay 15% of that in just personal income tax, not including unemployment insurance and your Canada pension plan. That brings you down to ~ 32 000 dollars per year take home. Some people can live on that, if you are willing to live in an apartment that's roughly the size of a shoebox and eat canned food every day. Nothing against those guys, but that's not for 99% of the population.
Pro gaming simply isn't a viable career yet. Think about how many people can make a living for themselves by playing video games. Less than 100 people globally, for sure. Your average good player like Sheth or Kiwikaki can't afford to live on their tournament winnings, not a chance.
The money in sports these days (and esports is included), is all from sponsorships. Some people have problems with that, but it's simply a fact. Athletes in respected and established sports make 90% of their income from sponsorship deals and contracts, rather than tournament winnings. Pro golfers are a prime example of this, and it's about 100 000 times easier to make a living playing golf than make a living as a pro gamer.
A lot of people in this thread have said it already, but I'll say it again. It's not a high-income life. Many high school students make more take home pay on a weekly basis, since their expenses are much lower.
How old are you? Probably not enough to be of working age to know how much it actually costs to make a living.
$30k is plenty. Plenty enough to live in more than a "shoebox." California minimum wage is $8/hr. $16k per year full time. Hundreds of thousands make a living off of this. You can pay the rent with that and eat out frequently. More room for luxuries if you room with someone and carpool. Keeping in mind the cost of living in California is absolutely absurd.
Well, thank you for taking this discussion and adding an ad hominem component to it. I really appreciate that you haven't focused on the topic at hand, and have instead chose to attempt to call me a child. =D
I don't know what kind of lifestyle you think people can live on 16 000 dollars per year, but if you are honestly going to suggest that someone can pay rent, utilities, food, internet, transit, property tax, and other expenses with that much income, I don't know what to say to you other than you need to honestly go do your research. I'm not going to do a full unit-by-unit breakdown of the living expenses that the average 25 year old has, because I've simply got better things to do.... However, I will say that it takes at least twenty five to thirty thousand dollars in take home pay per year to live in Toronto, where I am currently located, assuming you aren't renting a dirty run-down room in someone's basement and eating canned food every morning, afternoon, and evening.
If you are ok with that lifestyle, and I clearly stated in my previous post that I have nothing against people who are accepting of low-income living, then by all means become a pro gamer. However, that's one of the riskiest life choices a lot of people will ever make, considering that many of them drop out of college/job training to do so.
Please, in future, read the posts you are attempting to refute and don't bother making discussions personal. TL will be better off.
I don't know about Toronto, but if you live somewhere where rent is cheap, you can easily live fine on 16k. It's definitely not preferable, but that's only a little less than the stipend PhD students get in the department I'm in with a regular TA-ship. But in Athens, GA you can easily rent a decent place (for one person who doesn't own a lot of stuff) for $400/month or less. Also, I eat whatever I want and splurge the most on food and spend about $300/month on that. So unless you have expensive hobbies or need to buy a new car, living on 16k a year isn't very difficult at all here.
It would be almost impossible to live off that in Toronto.. but Toronto is the biggest city in Canada, its equivilant to living in like New York. From what I've heard, a downtown small ass apartment in Toronto is anywhere from $1500 to $2000 a month. Im sure you can find cheaper near the suburbs, but it all depends on where you live. Small cities in Canada are around what you are saying, but not Toronto.
But also food and everything to live costs more in Canada... Most of our minimum wages in each province are around $10 an hour, or will be there within the next year.. so thats 18K approx a year, that would be very hard to live from here.. Whats minimum wage in US?
I'd imagine the apartments in Toronto are much nicer even if similar in price/ft to NY. The apartments you can get for 2k/month are absolute crapholes.
Yup living expenses in Canada are quite ridiculous considering minimum wage isn't anything to write home about. Obviously its all relative, but Its difficult to imagine someone supporting themselves comfortably while earning minimum wage, unless you have multiple jobs or family support.
On April 18 2011 13:23 Skillz_Man wrote: JTV does 0.04 cents per commercial - which is $0.0004 per view on his stream. Therefore if you have 2500 viewers you make $1 per commercial. If you're like Huk and put a commercial after every game you'll average maybe $4 dollars an hour. His streaming schedule is usually 4-6 hours a day. Which is $500-$600 dollars per month.
That's about what Huk makes as his viewer counts average at that, which I mean isn't bad considering he doesn't pay for living expenses, ofcourse Im not certain what kind of share, if any tl.net takes from that.
Do you have a source for this (Inside proof, word of mouth)? I've heard Destiny say before he makes anywhere from $150-$300 / day which doesn't make any sense according to your figures. How does JTV paying $0.04 / commercial have any relevance if the revenue is calculated purely by viewer count?
Is the payout the same for every streamer or do high volume streamers see more % from the ad revenue?
They pay 0.04 cents per viewer per commercial is what I ment.
And $2/1000 viewers seems far too high. That's a rate of 0.2 cents an ad. Anyhow, I just assumed that's what every streamer got since I asked two close friends a while back. Maybe if you partner up with JTV they give you better rates.
And as for Destiny, 150-300 from just streaming? Or does that include his lessons, because that seems insanely high.
Not sure if you realize this or not but 0.02 / per viewer is much higher than $2 / thousand.
0.2 cents = 0.002 / per view which is $2 / thousand.... Fairly sure (positive) I'm right, you just dropped a decimal place there.
On February 03 2011 07:08 Holcan wrote: You act like eSports is a booming industry, it isnt. And gaining a few thousand viewers since sc2s release isnt changing anything either, outside sponsors dont want to see viewership in the tens of thousands, they want to see viewership in the 100,000's or more.
Esports will never become socially acceptable, especially with some of the current poster childs, (heres looking at you hostile !) Outside sponsors will always view this as a niche market, the most we can ever hope for is inside sponsorships (steelseries, razer) and related sponsorships (Intel, AMD). Look at how hard the CGS failed when they brought in outside sponsors.
Sure its possible to make a profit off esports, but you definitely wont be able to pay rent, afford to marry, and do all the things you can do with a 9-5 job, unless you are the very top percentile of players, and if you are a top percentile, you need to travel to a foreign country to compete.
A good example is Axslav, he plays for Team EG, one of the, if not the pinnacle of NA esports, yet he has a career outside of esports.
E-sports are largely socially accepted in some european countries not to mention the way it was in korea a few years back. I think you're focusing too much on current conditions in the US and even then fail to notice how everything's been moving forward. Notice how OSL was sponsored by a fucking airline company and GSL having sony ericsson for their main sponsor?
It's besides the point though, sponsors will obviously try to reach a specific demographic namely gamers in this case and I don't see why that would be a hinderance? More people play video games, e-sports keeps growing, more gaming related products get purchased, more gaming companies stand to make more profit off of advertisement/sponsorships. Why do you think big companies like razer and steelseries sprung up fairly recently? Sponsorships even now aren't some useless basement-ran software websites either but HUGE corporations like
SK - Acer MYM - puma, WD, razer
Intel stepping in as the main sponsor in GSL recently. Etc, etc.
And like some other guy said it sort of goes without saying that only the top will be able to sustain a decent living by playing video games/sports without doing some sort of related work purely for profit.
In don't know how it is where you live but in sweden the old stereotypical fat/greasy/generally disgusting nerd image washed off ages ago. Most people play video games in some shape or form, let's look at some swedish gaming superheroes.
They're not all supermodels, but they don't all look like 500 lbs obese social rejects...
No homo, but the difference between the Swedish examples and these is like night and day.
It is true that SC2 needs an attractive, athletic-looking, well-dressed role model in the international scene. In Korea, where younger guys can look more feminine, they had stars like BoxeR, YellOw and Reach and even Grrr (Guillaume Patry (?)) back in the BW days. They didn't look like basement nerds or guys who lived off junk food all day, and I think that was important in making BW mainstream in Korea.
Tyler is a very handsome man, full homo. Some progamers are ugly, some are handsome, so are fat, some are thin, just like every body else. Whether the image of the handsome nerd is required for Esports growth is questionable.
If you want it to be 'mainstream', then yes, unfortunately, it is required. Look at any other 'mainstream' anything. Even MUSIC requires you to be good-looking to be successful these days.
If you don't care if eSports becomes 'mainstream', though, don't worry about it.
On April 19 2011 06:05 Reithan wrote: According to that article, Day[9] is one of many Youtube streamers that pull in $100k+ JUST from Youtube.
Add in money from Justin.tv, Blip.tv, Casting events, merchandise endorsing/advertising, etc etc...If the $100k figure from NPR is correct, I'd be surprised if he wasn't pulling in close to double that yearly...if the initial numbers are correct.
Though, that's not a bash on Day[9], I say if it's true, awesome for him! Anyone who says otherwise is just jealous.
If he's making that sort of money then I'm jealous and I think it's awesome.
On April 19 2011 06:05 Reithan wrote: According to that article, Day[9] is one of many Youtube streamers that pull in $100k+ JUST from Youtube.
Add in money from Justin.tv, Blip.tv, Casting events, merchandise endorsing/advertising, etc etc...If the $100k figure from NPR is correct, I'd be surprised if he wasn't pulling in close to double that yearly...if the initial numbers are correct.
Though, that's not a bash on Day[9], I say if it's true, awesome for him! Anyone who says otherwise is just jealous.
If he's making that sort of money then I'm jealous and I think it's awesome.
He isn't. The article was about "people on youtube set to make 100k/year in the future". In other words, massive bullshit.
EPT
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