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It happens to me all the time: If the game does not go exactly the way I predicted, I don't know what to do next. Instead of keeping cool and analyzing the situation, I get tunnel vision. For example "must ... do ... damage ..." or "must ... drone ... up ..." Because I feel tense, I don't get a third base (I feel it would be killed) or I forget to scout (since I have too much other things to do.) Once I watch the replay, I often see "wait, he actually did not had that much stuff. I should have done this or that."
I also get off the track if for example the terran builds the usual Marine-Tank-Thor army. To fight this, I need banelings, infestors and mutas, but I never feel able to get those units in time. Normally I have some mutas, do some harass, but then get roflstomped by Marine-Tank-Thor anyway. This is not a topic "how to fight this unit composition", this is an example of how I feel helpless and then doing the wrong thing (teching instead of droning.) Again, watching the replay I see that the terran is often very passive for quite some time. I could have taken 1-2 more bases (I play in silver league.)
I did try the mental checklist. At least I am not missing too many larvae injections, I also find the time to spread the creep. But my decision making is just off, because I am only thinking about not to lose the game very soon.
How can I relax? It does not help that I know that I still have chance since it is silver league. I get tunnel vision that I must stay alive in the game.
Oddly enough, I get tunnel vision also the other way around. If I feel I should win because my micro is clearly superiour, I get sloppy. I am not attacking nor scouting because I am only macroing up. But when the opponent pushes, he gets me because I have many undefended bases.
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Only real solution is "more" games.
If your Build is succesfull you just train the build.
The real games are the ones in which your Build is not enough to win; right then you have to use your brain, you need an idea what your Build can do in the later stages of the game.
The heavy Macro late game is something that you can practive rarely , it happens not often and theirs no real "Build Order" to follow in the super late game; its all about who can win the big clashes or establishes an advantage.
Actual the most intresting part of the game and even a bunch of "Pros" still have the Tunnel Vision in the late game, simply because you can't really practive all possible szenarios in the late game.
Just practice your Macro, if it gets really good you have much more time to "think" , as the Macro is done without real brainpower (and faster ofcourse).
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On January 31 2011 20:25 TheOnlyOne wrote:
Only real solution is "more" games.
Unfortunately only this.
I know this problem all too well, and coming from wc3-semi-pro-gaming I'm telling you - the only way you will ever feel comfortable is when you literally have seen everything. If you are in a situation you have never encountered you should RELAX and know that regardless how the game ends you will probably find out afterwards that you should have done something differently.
Next time when you see an opponent doing exactly the same stuff, you'll hopefully remember some parts of your previous game and react accordingly. Still, you need to play against this exact strat probably about a hundred times before you feel perfectly secure and know exactly how to proceed.
I realize, this may feel hard on one after having played already many games but it basicly is nothing else but a lack of experience and practice.
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This sounds like a complicated issue, but I'll try to offer some help.
One thing is to give scouting a much higher priority. You'll win more by scouting than you will by spreading creep on time, so spare some APM for it. If you can make it to the point where you can get an overseer and/or OL speed, then your scouting should be somewhat easy. I prefer sacking speed overlords to check out my opponent's base and army. Try to figure out what he's doing and respond correctly. If he's being passive, don't be afraid to throw up another expo and/or drone up. If you scout an army twice your size, don't be afraid to build up units to defend unless you KNOW he's going to be passive - but I'd err on the side of units in this case.
Another thing I'd say is try to get used to some general timings. I don't mean things like "I should have mutas out by 9 minutes" but "since I just crushed his army I can take an expo". What do you usually do when you crush an opponent's army? If your first instinct is to keep pumping out units and counter attack then I'd suggest instead to take that opportunity to drone up and possibly expand if the timing is right. Keep the scouting up so you know when to make units again (just a ling covering each possible attack path and xel'naga towers should do early on, overlords spread around the map are nice, too, to keep track of the army and expansions).
As a Zerg, you have to accept that you will lose games based on lack of scouting, making drones at the wrong time, or making units at the wrong time. It's just something we have to deal with at all levels. It sounds like you might be taking those kinds of losses a bit too hard, though. Don't worry about losing the game "very soon", just keep an eye on your enemy and be prepared when he moves out. It may be nerve wracking having few army units for so long sometimes, and you will lose that way sometimes, but that's the right way to lose in the long run.
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Personally, while climbing through the lower leagues (2500 D atm) I found an overemphasis on scouting is often more than enough. In silver league, ov's with upgrade speed (or an overseer) can usually get through a base before being killed, since most players can't kite marines effectively enough to catch them at that skill level.
Zerg is a race that, imo moreso than the others, walks the tightrope of risk/reward the most. The way to feel more confident is to have a better idea of what you're facing. Scout more, and play reactive to your scouting.
Then, as said above, as you play more games, your understanding of what you scout/how to react will become better, and your tunnel vision will lessen.
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I was almost in the same situation but I scouted as well but still did not quite know what to do or got to focused on what I thought I should do.
I broke out of this by first and foremost starting to actually believe in myself and believing I could win. Not thinking I am doing the right build to counter what I think my opponent was doing but actually feeling like there is a fighting chance. With that came confidence and I was able to relax more and things sort of fell into place. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I started to try and remember what to look for in figuring out what my opponent was doing and how to react to that. From that place on it was more about trying different builds and seeing what works and what doesnt.
Now comes the tricky part. The popular builds dont always do for you what it does for others. Like muta ling e.g. I hate mutas but like lings. Did it work to go muta/ling/baneling when dealing with whatever supposed build it was meant to work against. Not for me. so I substituted mutas for roaches and soon after that infestors. Alot of trial and error there.
Basically it sounds like you can use the tools you have, in general micro and macro, and you can tell the different signs that sort of says what build your opponent is doing. But then you get into a mindset that is basically: this is what I should do, this is what I must do and so on. Instead try and get comfortable working with what you feel works for you, not what everyone else says you must do. Of course there are situations where you must follow a specific pattern like when being up against a 4gating protoss, but those situations are few. In general though work on just feeling like you actually know what you are doing and why. Like others have said most of all just play more, and watch your reps when you lose and remember what you actually learned from those reps. It takes time and repetition but it's oh so gratifying when you finally feel like you have improved.
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This is one of this things that you are afraid of the ladder... the only solutionsl to keep playing l, like my goal is to play ten ladder games a day and eventually you stop caring about pressing that find match button and you also calm done significantly in game.
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Yeah I'd say experience is the key here. I am by no means a good SC2 player, but to me it's completely logical that if you keep on playing and analyse your replays (which you seem do be doing) things will sort themselves out in time.
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On January 31 2011 20:29 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 20:25 TheOnlyOne wrote:
Only real solution is "more" games. Unfortunately only this. Yes, I try to play more but I have the feeling that I learn nothing. To be more precise, I learn only theory. It is very seldom that I can apply something I learnt, because I get tunnel vision. For example, I send the Speedlord near to the enemy base, but then I forget to send him in. Or I arrange my lings to vital scout positions. When he kills them and I am in the dark, I just should send another ling but at this time I have no larvae, later I forget to send the lings.
More often than I should, I lose with 3 running bases to a terran which takes his expo (and attacks at the same time) when his main runs dry. More often than I should I never take my third. I am total tunnelled in my vision during the play. I can normally hold the first push of the terran, but I feel I must keep up at any cost. "Must ... defend ... the swarm"
After the game, it comes back to me "I should have got banelings" "I should have taken two expos at the same time with my 1000 overmins" "I should have had more queens" "I should have scouted when he moves out" "I should have scouted that he goes air heavy".
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On January 31 2011 20:34 densha wrote:
This sounds like a complicated issue, but I'll try to offer some help.
One thing is to give scouting a much higher priority. You'll win more by scouting than you will by spreading creep on time, so spare some APM for it. Yes I should to that, for two reasons: I feel more safe if I know what I can expect and second, the opponent feels uncomfortable because he thinks "now that he scoutet me, he can properly counter." Sadly, when my mutas are out, I feel it's payback time for the 10 drones ans 6 lings I lost defending his initial push. "Must ... punish ... him ... keep ... up ... with ... supply ..."
When I watch the replay, I see "omg, I could have taken it reeaaally easy, just sitting back, scout when he moves out, lose my army defending but rebuilding it to take him out."
On January 31 2011 20:34 densha wrote:
Another thing I'd say is try to get used to some general timings. I don't mean things like "I should have mutas out by 9 minutes" but "since I just crushed his army I can take an expo". What do you usually do when you crush an opponent's army? If your first instinct is to keep pumping out units and counter attack then I'd suggest instead to take that opportunity to drone up and possibly expand if the timing is right. Yes, this is a serious issue. "Omg I got I got!! I just need to hit him again and he is done." Probably it would be smarter to contain him and maintain my advantage instead of risking it. I should stockpile larvae and macro up. But I get tunnelled into making wrong decisions.
On January 31 2011 20:34 densha wrote:
As a Zerg, you have to accept that you will lose games based on lack of scouting, making drones at the wrong time, or making units at the wrong time. It's just something we have to deal with at all levels. It sounds like you might be taking those kinds of losses a bit too hard, though. Don't worry about losing the game "very soon", just keep an eye on your enemy and be prepared when he moves out. It may be nerve wracking having few army units for so long sometimes, and you will lose that way sometimes, but that's the right way to lose in the long run. Sometimes I get really angry after a loss, because it felt so cheap how he won. Of course he only could do that because I let him. Then I say "Next time, I will act properly" - only to run into the same mental trap again.
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On January 31 2011 21:05 FarbrorAbavna wrote:
I broke out of this by first and foremost starting to actually believe in myself and believing I could win. Not thinking I am doing the right build to counter what I think my opponent was doing but actually feeling like there is a fighting chance. It is really a trap for me. Often the replay proves that he had to cut quite some workers to push that early. Though even I lost 10 drones, I was not actually behind since I can surpass his worker count with the next larvae round because I already have the expansion up. But it feels like "what a bad start for me, now he can continue to push so I must build defense which sets me even further behind in eco".
On January 31 2011 21:05 FarbrorAbavna wrote:
Basically it sounds like you can use the tools you have, in general micro and macro, and you can tell the different signs that sort of says what build your opponent is doing. But then you get into a mindset that is basically: this is what I should do, this is what I must do and so on. I have the strong urge to do something to avoid instant death and I also remember that I must continue to build drones. Even more, I have the feeling that I must act very soon to avoid a loss. I am not relaxed enough to sit back and think "ok, how can I keep him busy without loosing much so I can secure my third".
On January 31 2011 21:05 FarbrorAbavna wrote:
Like others have said most of all just play more, and watch your reps when you lose and remember what you actually learned from those reps. It takes time and repetition but it's oh so gratifying when you finally feel like you have improved. I tried to learn from my replays but most things are keeping theoretical. In the next game I am not applying my new knowledge of what is possible. I improved a bit at I got demoted from Gold to Silver because then I used the same opening all the time and was able to execute it quite smoothly. Now I am no longer improving.
Maybe I should set myself a goal: Scout the enemy's main every 3 minutes no matter what. May be the intel I get will make me more comfortable. May be I should even install an alarm timer on my computer to not forget.
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On January 31 2011 21:12 Sockpuppet wrote:
This is one of this things that you are afraid of the ladder... the only solutionsl to keep playing l, like my goal is to play ten ladder games a day and eventually you stop caring about pressing that find match button and you also calm done significantly in game. This is no longer an issue for me since I actually played 10 games in a row. I get into the game calm. But during the game I make horribly wrong decisions. Not small mistakes but big blunders. Because I was totally tunnel visioned into doing a particular thing without considering other options.
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I think I know exactly what you mean.
I was bronze in beta and now I am high diamond (hoping I'll be a master soon). What I learned in this journey is that the way you improve might vary from level to level.
At low level, as Day9 says the one with more shit will usually win. While you progress that won't be enough, you'll have to adapt and react to what your opponent is doing.
It will be hard to react and defend all the all-ins and chesses. You will usually get crushed by them and you will start playing "defensively" (that's how I call it).
What happens is that you get crushed by, lets say, banshee and the next game you will try to prepare for it. But instead you will get crushed by marine+SCVall-in. The next game you will try to prepare for marine+SCV all-in and maybe banshee but you will get crushed by mass rauders. Then you will get scared and try to defend all of those but actually none and get crushed by any of them as you can not properly prepare for everything.
People will tell you to scout, scout, scout. This is in fact the solution, but not enough. Scouting is useless if you don't know how to interpret the information you get from it or how to react to what the opponent is doing.
What I suggest is something I learned from Day9. Pick a build you often encounter on the ladder and focus only on that.
Lets say 4gate:
1. Learn how to properly defend it.
You should be able to easily defend it with speedlings and some crawlers. I don't play zerg but in my opinion this should work, anyway that's for you to find out how to defend it. This is just for example.
2. Learn how to scout it.
You should look for clues like chrono on core, or a lot of saved energy on nexus etc.
Focus only on scouting and reacting to this build. Don't care if you get crushed by a voidray rush. You simply didn't prepare for it so don't feel bad, just ignore it. This might fuck up your rating as you will prob lose to all the other builds you don't prepare for and even to 4gates until you learn to properly defend it. You will lose a lot, but probably it will be what people call U shaped progression. You will go down but soon you will be ascending like a rocket.
If you have a friend to practice against, it might save you time and also might save your rating. A friend that plays the race you prepare against can also tell you tips on how to defend that certain build based on his ladder experience. He can tell you what others do when he uses that build on ladder.
Once you practiced a lot against it you can then start with another one. Just take it step by step, don't mix them.
After a while you'll gain confidence and you won't play so "defensively". You will scout and see "Uuu, there is chrono on the nexus and no more energy, probably there won't be a 4gate or just a shity one that I will easily defend, so no need to worry to much about this one".
Of course this will not end here. You'll end up playing defensively again once you progress. You just have to find the ways to get your confidence back. Simply reacting to their opening won't be enough, you'll probably over-react and get behind economically then you will need to learn how to defend with minor investment. Scouting will be harder and you'll probably lose your confidence if you play in the dark. You will then need to learn how to read their army composition and get an idea of what they might do based on the units you see at the ramp. etc...
With time you'll find ways to get over it, experience will help a lot. You just have to realize when you are to "defensive" and start looking for the things that cause it and ways to win your confidence back.
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I would suggest original Donkey Kong. That game required you to see ALL those barrels at the same time to ensure survival!
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This might seem like a little bit odd, but turn off your sound and music.
This will help you relax and think more about the current situation. If you have a lot of info that is coming your way, you will likely be overwhelmed and focus on one single thing, if you have slightly less incoming, its more managable.
Besides, I don't really need to know I require more minerals fifty times.
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You seem like you can really spot flaws in your play outside of games, but not inside.
My guess is this is due to nerves in-game. Solution: Play more games. Try playing against the AI, it takes the nerves outta the equation.
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On February 01 2011 02:14 nemukud wrote:
What happens is that you get crushed by, lets say, banshee and the next game you will try to prepare for it. But instead you will get crushed by marine+SCVall-in. The next game you will try to prepare for marine+SCV all-in and maybe banshee but you will get crushed by mass rauders. Then you will get scared and try to defend all of those but actually none and get crushed by any of them as you can not properly prepare for everything. Exactly. There is so much the opponent could throw at me. I am not that much afraid of Protoss because in Silver, roaches + queens can handle almost anything. Versus terran, I think I developed a neurosis. "Last time a 35 APM 1-base-terran killed me, so can do this one, too."
Since I got demoted to Silver, I am no longer paying attention to my ladder statistics. I am ready to lose even more games if I only would feel an improvement after all.
On February 01 2011 02:14 nemukud wrote:
If you have a friend to practice against, it might save you time and also might save your rating. A friend that plays the race you prepare against can also tell you tips on how to defend that certain build based on his ladder experience. He can tell you what others do when he uses that build on ladder. I play custom matches versus a friend from time to time, to learn to handle marine-marauder-pushes. So far we only played on Scrap Station, so I can learn some timings on one map (for example I can send my inital overlord to scout his front without to worry about that he shoots him down.)
After the game he often tells me that I didn't defend properly. But I feel that it is not that much my micro skill. Before I really practice micro, I need to get rid of tunnel visioned decision making.
On February 01 2011 02:14 nemukud wrote:
Simply reacting to their opening won't be enough, you'll probably over-react and get behind economically then you will need to learn how to defend with minor investment. Yes. Day[9] often gives examples of a player overreacting. Then I think "Sean is right. He shouldn't overreact, but play calm. It is completely reasonable what he said." But if I am under pressure in a game, I get those tunnel vision. "Must ... defend ... must ... punish ... him ..."
On February 01 2011 02:14 nemukud wrote:
With time you'll find ways to get over it, experience will help a lot. You just have to realize when you are to "defensive" and start looking for the things that cause it and ways to win your confidence back. I will try to scout much more, just to get more comfortable with the situation. It is true that when I feel that I already have lost and just keep playing, that I don't make good decision. I need to get more confident that I am may be able to get away with it since it is just Silver League, dammit.
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For things like this the only real way to improve is a LOT of practice.
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Without overcomplicating the issue two tip that has helped me a lot is keeping an eye on the minimap while macroing (as macroing should be like second nature to you), and focus your harassment timings around your macro, i.e. for myself as a protoss player it is warping in units, queuing up production, making more production builds, using chrono, etc. and while all those things are on cooldown that is when I focus on harass, then when repelled I go back and macro some more. Before doing this I had a lot of issues with my resources piling up while I was focused on harassment or a battle or whatever.
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There is some good advise in this thread. I now try to:
- Scout much more. This is still an issue, often I am occupied with other things. But it really feels comfortable to get intel even if it costs me the overlord.
- Forget about the "metagame" and pro-tips. Instead of thinking "what would a GSL zerg do?" I just try to reason on a very basic level. Sometimes I get lucky with my timing. May be with enough practice I can turn luck into skill.
It still is a long way. I also make a note for every game what I have learnt, for example:
- If protoss walls himself with cannons, beware of VR
- Versus zerg I can get away with 10-pool with 2 crawlers
- If terran goes viking, muta tech is too long because he can tank-rine-drop me
- If protoss is not walling himself in, just go mass lings
Those are obviously silver-level observations but I feel more comfortable to play with my own experience instead of trying to emulate a GSL gosu. In addition to feeling somewhat more confident it also makes more fun to experience the game this way.
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EPT
