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On January 08 2011 17:14 kirkybaby wrote:
I haven't noticed much imba whining on the thread recently. Seems like a whole lot of effort in the OP for nothing to me.
i haven't either, but i sure as hell have noticed a lot of stuck up pricks who shout "USELESS!" at half the threads around.
how dare someone utter such positive things on TeamLiquid, especially with a post of over 25 words! there isn't even a TL:DR. injustice!
i so dearly want people like you, with your higher post-count and inflated head, to get the fuck out. teamliquid isn't just for pros, members above a certain membership time length, or tirelessly negative elitists. this post has something to say, a good message to get across, and an intelligent writer behind it. how about you go shoot the shit with the blizzie kids on the battle.net forums and stop criticizing people's efforts.
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I dont agree with the OP at all. Hiding problems doesn't help anyone in the long run.
Obviously there is a difference in a quality of post/behaviour between crying about something and actually discussing an issue thoroughly.
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On January 08 2011 14:25 FrostOtter wrote:
Why? Any race can win on any map. That is a fact. People will probably say something about how players of equal skill blah blah blah, but I would guess no one could come up with a coherent method of deciding who is of equal skill.
Are there things that need to be tweaked? Perhaps, but those will gradually disappear and Blizzard is going to notice them without thousands of threads of complainers.
again look at my post. in a fighting game you can win with most characters. in the tournament street fighter games, you can in fact win with every character. but the key is that you have to be sufficiently better than your opponent to win. and in starcraft, the idea is that each matchup should require more or less the same amount of work from both people (though not necessarily for the same race against different races).
anyway, and more generally speaking, if whining works do it.
bronze kids whined about void rays and it got changed. a bazillion times. team liquid has been crying about steppes of war since forever and blizzard wont remove it from the map pool and give us a new map, one that actually fits the style of play used by good people.
one last thing, again generally speaking and not specifically targeted at you; we need a solution to lack of information, especially against terran, and especially for zeg. But overall, Id like to see more tools to scout.
Id be willing to put a hold on any unit balance changes with new, better maps and that has been my point all along. I dont want unit changes AND new maps, I want new maps THEN unit changes, IF they are needed.
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IMO (if it hasn't already been said) every imbalance talk should be against TL rules and admins should warn/temp ban for it.
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On January 09 2011 22:39 WarSong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 17:14 kirkybaby wrote:
I haven't noticed much imba whining on the thread recently. Seems like a whole lot of effort in the OP for nothing to me. i haven't either, but i sure as hell have noticed a lot of stuck up pricks who shout "USELESS!" at half the threads around. how dare someone utter such positive things on TeamLiquid, especially with a post of over 25 words! there isn't even a TL:DR. injustice! i so dearly want people like you, with your higher post-count and inflated head, to get the fuck out. teamliquid isn't just for pros, members above a certain membership time length, or tirelessly negative elitists. this post has something to say, a good message to get across, and an intelligent writer behind it. how about you go shoot the shit with the blizzie kids on the battle.net forums and stop criticizing people's efforts.
Just because a post is long-winded, has a positive message, and is well constructed, doesn't mean its not useless.
Omg theres pictures and colors and headings and paragraphs! 10/10 OP!!
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IMO (if it hasn't already been said) every imbalance talk should be against TL rules and admins should warn/temp ban for it.
No it shouldn't.
There's a difference between "OMFG maraudas r so OP!!1!!" and well put complaints with arguments to back it up. Balance is the main part of SC and talking about it should not be bannable.
I do not agree with the OP.
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RIP reaper =(
use to have so much fun using it b4 the patch
people use to call it imba
but the game is too young for that
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On January 09 2011 23:23 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +IMO (if it hasn't already been said) every imbalance talk should be against TL rules and admins should warn/temp ban for it. No it shouldn't. There's a difference between "OMFG maraudas r so OP!!1!!" and well put complaints with arguments to back it up. Balance is the main part of SC and talking about it should not be bannable. I do not agree with the OP.
I propably should've written a little bit more :D
The discussion should be: "How do you beat that?" and if the "solutions" are so different that it couldn't deal with almost anything else (proper scouting assumed) which makes the solution not viable, then there should be discussion about things being too strong.
It's just about the difference between calling things imbalanced and discussing something without the use of this negative wording, which is pretty huge imo in the minds of uninformed/less experienced people.
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im cheering for you my friend.
thx for this post.
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The OP is not useless at all, contrary to what some people seem to think. I doubt the "omfg imba qq" threads will actually ruin SC2, but the sheer quantity of such nonconstructive threads keep me from dipping my toes in the icky pool of SHIT that the sc2 strategy forum has become ._. It's a shame, really, because there are some good posts there, but I'm not gonna to dive headfirst into a a field of pitch to find a speck of diamond.
The problem is people who don't understand what an RTS is. Every unit or building or whatever does different things. The whole point of the real time strategy is to use your brain and work with and around the strengths and weaknesses of what you have to defeat your opponent. If you want the game to hand you victories on a silver platter while eliminating the need for you to utilize a single neuron, go play a freakin FPS for fuck's sake. It's no coincidence, in my opinion, that most people who do whine about imbalance are in the lower leagues.
I admit, though, the irony of a bronze player trashing the game for being completely imbalanced does squeeze a giggle or two out of me every now and then.
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Good community building thread but two issues:
This should've been bolded and the part I bolded underlined.
If we continue down the path we are on Starcraft will probably die out because the absurd amount of shitty posts flooding TL will reach a point where TL is no longer enjoyable to be on, and if people want to get called a fag by 12 year olds who call everyone better than them a nolife and worse than them a noob then they'll go play Halo or Call of Duty. Does everyone want that? Nothing good can come from the current low quality and high quantity of SC2 posts (mostly relating to imbalance).
My second issue is that I generally see imbalances and this article doesn't dissuade me from me thinking mostly because I'm not part of the crowd that just farts out insults or provides no justification for their viewpoints. I offer justification to see if counter criticism can be offered because that allows imbalance discussions to go over viable options that exist in the game.
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Why not just create a subforum for the discussion of unit/game/map balance?
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I think balnce should be discussed but only by players who know something about the game not those random "nerf this, buff that" talks...
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hmm.... seems like a good post but when i repeated again the post is logically flawed .u can't hide a problem by ignoring it. You are trying to say that "if there are imbalance, just deal with it". for example, Thor drop, tank drop on Lost temple against zerg is clealy imbalanced. That map need to be fixed ASAP u can't ignore that.
Actually i wouldn't be surprise if OP play terran because only terran players don't whine about imbalance and make this kind of holy post. I presume that OP is either "gold" or "platinum" because i geniunely felt that the game is completely balanced when i was in platinum and i had the same thought as OP. But there are quite a lot of abusable things in sc2 to be honest. for exampe, pylon cannon contain, Polt attack and thor-scv repair against protoss are remarkably powerful. The opponent has to do quite a lot of works just to counter simple a-move then there are already quite a lot of issues there.
I don't know why so many people support this post and like this post... to me it's like a dictator is trying to cloud people's mind by by saying "hey who cares if South korea is rich and have access to high speed internet, we have Huts and 56k modem internet which deliver the same result we just need to wait 1000 times longer than south korean internet to download a 3mb file. it's balance, stop whine, just be patience."
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Too pretentious. Thread accomplishes nothing except everyone patting themselves on the back for agreeing with one another.
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Russian Federation6 Posts
6 pool imbalanced if you have no idea about it and pump workers. Thor and tank drop on LT are equal if you get 15 hatchery and making drones without scouting ever. There is so much you can do with almost any "imblanced thing" in game just by clear scouting and making right decisions vs following 1 learned bo in any situation.
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On January 09 2011 22:12 peterra wrote:
I've to type out that I am having a huge disagreement with this post overall.
The points you raise up are good to a valid point but you cannot possibly IN ANY WAY forbid people of talking/writing about points that are obviously -disturbing- the gameplay of the game.
I am not a SC:BW player but instead a Warcraft 3 player. In Warcraft 3 the game always was MORE IMBALANCED and OVERPOWERED than the Starcraft:Broodwar ever was and ever will be.
And trust me, in Warcraft 3, Blizzard just did not care for the game after the first 3 years at all. People were screaming for changes and people didn't get changes at all. People used years and years to be innovative and to come up with new strategies in the imbalanced matchups: UD vs. Orc was imbalanced back 2004 and back 2011 the matchup is still just as imbalanced as it was the first day of 2004.
What your post at its best accomplishes is trying to hide the problem and silence the opposition. Game world does not work like this, real life does not work like this. Problems won't disappear if you ignore them. Imbalances of the game won't disappear when you ignore them and try to hide it "hey it's alright my build order just sucks so much that i cannot win in this situation"
First of everything I'll go deeper to this, i am trying to define you what IMBALANCE in matter of fact means to me (dunno if it means the same for the others but it definitely means the following for me):
Imbalance is a point or stance of the game when your opponent to a reason irrelevant to his skill level, style or early game success reaches an -undeniable- advantage, which is easier to pull out than it is to pull off.
For instance for myself, as a player of the zerg race, i consider protoss the race of problems at this point. Why? Because protoss has relatively good cheeses which _MUST BE_ scouted in order to be countered but along the line protoss has a possibility to expand early which is hard to stop and which automatically leads to a macrogame. This process of protoss going to a macrogame is very hard to stop and requires you to 1) all-in and wish for the best 2) try to play the macrogame where you most likely lose in the long run.
A good protoss that knows the basics of his race knows how to get the game to the stage of the macrogame. He knows how to defend early roach pushes, how to defend his early expansion and he also knows to scout his opponent. When protoss gets high tier units (standard units like colossi) the game turns into a nightmare for the opponent automatically. A traditional combination of protoss stalkers, zealots, sentries and colossi and i bet you if both players have reached a traditional army combination of their representive race to that point of time it wouldn't matter if the game was paused and the players would change places - the zerg to become the protoss and the protoss to become the zerg, i bet you the winner would still be the same.
That's how I count something is imbalanced: when using a special type of army that both players might consider a standard obviously grants one of the players a huge advantage in the fight. The process or zerg vs. protoss in the midgame when protoss steps to high templars or colossus is so unfair and no matter who controls that protoss army seems to win the game.
I've been following the games of pro zerg against pro protoss lately and the only successful zerg at the moment appears to be SEN who always seems to be way ahead his opponent in both thought process and skill. When i watch GSL and see nestea and fruitdealer totally losing to -cheesy strategies- followed by an expansion and lategame i only feel sorry for the zerg players.
Also pointing out some noteable facts that everyone in the diamond league is familiar with:
protoss seems to be the most played race atm. You usually get 3/5 of the games against protoss and the rest of 2 shared games between zergs and terrans. Protoss seems to also have the best percents in higher leagues and also seems to be represented the best atm. I'd like to see that top 200 and those new percents of each matchup in every realm. Last time Protoss had a slice of 60% vs. terran and a slice of 55% vs. zerg in both Europe and America.
And I know that there're tons of things i can still do better but what really hits me hard is the fact that protoss players don't have to do that any better. Good protoss players seem to have fun playing atm since i feel like some of them are making really huge errors during the early game and really losing a lot and even when i watch those replays of mine several times i cannot figure out how did i play worse and that hits me straight to the fact. I sometimes send those games to fellow zerg players and their answers are "well i've got the problem every time so i think you should just to try to finish the game before and all-in" when i am a macroplayer wanting to oriantate to win the game later.
I think it's an unfair slice that one race has an army that automatically (independant of positioning and with very little micro required) can so easily win a huge fight vs. equal pop of the opponent race. Think about colossi for instance: they're huge - probably the easiest single unit to micro in the game with a lot of hp and only losing when the opponent gets absolutely close. Comparing this situation to the counters and how much micro do they need to work out _that well_ is a completely unfair situation and that situation is nearly always something you need to go in. The only way to prevent the creation of this type of army of a protoss players is to go mass air which wins when he doesn't know he has phoenix which are buffed for the next patch to further buest protosses chances of adaption.
I think the game still has these tweaks and where i agree with you that writing short useless posts without any point or thought about imbalance is waste of the community i also think that trying to hide the imbalance and the overpower of some "traditional" situations and the fact that player neeeds more than a small change into the build order is also wrong. The game is still new and full of small errors, even if the game experience so far has been smoother than in war3 i still think you shouldn't consider that it's balanced yet.
I think this "1 Post" reflects pretty much everything that is wrong about Balancediscussions and the current state of the community.
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On January 08 2011 14:25 FrostOtter wrote:
bronze kids whined about void rays and it got changed. a bazillion times. team liquid has been crying about steppes of war since forever and blizzard wont remove it from the map pool and give us a new map, one that actually fits the style of play used by good people.
The "good people" and better players adjust their style of play based on the map. Again arguing balance of the map is silly because a better player will understand the constraints and benefits of each individual map better. Its just another aspect of a strategy game and another reason that starcraft is a intelligent and varied strategy game.
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The SC2 core game is probably very close to balance right now, but map imbalances just can't be argued.
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Mapimbalance isn't necessarily a bad thing. In a bo3 You have disadvantages on some maps and advantages on others. So does your opponent. Maps are just one more factor to make the game interesting, same thing goes for spawnpositions.
Argueing that all maps should be the same is silly. Roger Federer is not crying imba when he plays on a clay court rather than grass. Some F1 drivers are more comfortable with rain on the track, some golfplayers favor a par 5 over a par 3, most red creatures in mtg are cheaper than blue creatures and if you only get "12 and 2" on your land in settlers of catan you might be in a disadvantage but dont just forfeit. You use whats given to you and make the best out of it, even if you are in a disadvantage.
(This of course excludes bugusage like the "Spacewalk" on scrapstation or the invisible pylon/Zealot)
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EPT
