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Please, if you're going to post troll responses like "You don't" or "Just go no life" just don't post and I'm saying this because this is a ridiculous thread that's honestly going to get ridiculous answers.
People that play basketball and are in the NBA and such just play from when they're kids, go to school, get some coaching, then go to college, blah blah blah.
People that become accountants or something go to college, take courses, blah blah blah.
So how the hell do you become a pro gamer? It's not like you're born with it. Here in the states (or at least where I live) it's not really seen as something that can actually get you anywhere because "it's just a game"- which is weird because football and baseball are "just games" all the same. It's mind over matter.
Gosucoaching is really expensive in my eyes ($30 an hour? wtf?).
It's not like you can just play forever and become pro eventually- people don't have time for that, they have jobs and stuff to do.
It's not like I can move to South Korea and go pro gamer there, my family isn't exactly rich or supportive of how much I like this game -,-
I've gone from silver in the beta to a 2300 diamond (TheeMan.279) now, and it felt great to go from platinum to diamond, to think that I'm up against the best.
BUT I'm not, obviously.
World top has 3800, and that number is only going to go up.
So really... how in the world have people like Machine or IdrA had time to go pro gamer?
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8751 Posts
Everyone became good enough to go pro while doing school full time, just like sports. The only major difference is that you're kinda on your own. Like you say, there are no local teams and no free coaching.
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30 dollars is not that much for a service where a guarantee that the person doing it knows what they are doing is necessary. 30 dollars an hour wont get you a very good accountant/plumber/welder much less an attorney or surgeon.
anyway, it's a job. a full time job is 40 hours a week. get yourself a stream and play in every tournament and put in the time and if you have the talent it will happen.
just remember, no one is as good as they think they are.
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....That's kind of funny to hear because I'm 15 right now. (lll-,-) I wish there were local teams.
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They play a lot, but what separates them from most mass-gamers is that they have a lot of quirks when they play and watch their own replays. Their analytical ability is beyond the average SC2 player and they tend to explore every option possible. They're not the type of players that do the same thing in every situation (ie 80% of diamond players).
Aside from that, being pro also means that the IRS knows you get a lot of money from playing Starcraft 2.
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8751 Posts
On January 03 2011 11:48 gamerkhang wrote:
....That's kind of funny to hear because I'm 15 right now. (lll-,-) I wish there were local teams.
Well you can play as much as possible while you're in high school, while also building a good resume to apply for colleges, and in the spring of your senior year you can decide if you want to go to college and quit progaming, or not go to college and pursue progaming, or go to college and continue to work at progaming in your spare time.
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What's your definition of pro?
Being on a pro team? Making your entire living off of it?
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Why not set your own team up, it doesn't have to be local, just look at root all of them have very little support and they're doing pretty well. Something in common that all pro gamers have are teams to practice with people who enjoy the game as much as they do. So just join teams play your best do a lot of tournaments that are free to enter get your name out there, stream a lot and hope for the best!
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All can happen at 15. All progamers started in their teens cause you have a lot of freetime and can play a lot without consequences. If you dedicate yourself enough to the game, try to improve everytime you play and have talent, it will just happen.
Just remember to have a bit of real life and friends cause the game itself wont get you anywhere in life, even if you're a progamer.
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On January 03 2011 11:43 gamerkhang wrote:
It's not like you can just play forever and become pro eventually- people don't have time for that, they have jobs and stuff to do.
thats exactly what you do
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On January 03 2011 11:52 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 11:43 gamerkhang wrote:
It's not like you can just play forever and become pro eventually- people don't have time for that, they have jobs and stuff to do.
thats exactly what you do
LOL, yeah I worded that kind of funny  but I wish progaming here in the States had the publicity it has in South Korea, oh well.
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Well, you don't go pro just by dreaming about it. It "just" takes hard work and serious dedication. I can't really do that, which means I'm never gonna "go pro". If you can't dedicate a significant portion of your life to this game (playing intensively and analysing your mistakes that is), then forget about ever competing at the highest level and just enjoy the game.
Also, about the coaching. There are plenty of free solution that can get you going aswell.
And while a team can help you, in the end, this is one person game. The strengh and dedication that can turn the tide has to come from within.
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In my eyes, I'd pay for Gosucoaching even though I'd consider myself a higher end player just because the things that separate you and me, from say IdrA, are actually quite small differences (beyond the actual skill gap of course) they are just small player quirks or tricks they have learned to help put themselves ahead of the group (other professionals) through continual play. (And of course the following) :
Sadly, while you may say refrain from saying "Just go no life" Much of the difference in skill level /does/ revolve around practice. And you cannot practice without putting in the time. That's not to say that players like QXC and others do not exist, or that it should hold a negative connotation! They have many many other activities and I think in one interview from MLG QXC actually classified his game time as 'when he has time' rather than first and foremost.
I'd actually say, sadly, players are more inclined to be "born" with it. That is what talent is. The game wouldn't be as challenging or hold much entertainment value if everyone could just get better than one another because they "try hard". Your comparison to SC and Sports holds much more value than I think you understood. They are identical in the previously noted perspective, that the games hold human interaction and therefore - over time - can curve in skill or performance. While you and many others work very hard to achieve higher placements than what was originally held; players like NesTea have worked hard on top of holding a strong basis of skill, and therefore, are just that much further ahead.
I don't want to make it sound depressing, but often, most players who are near the Semi-Professional area or just have not "tried"/"shown their max potential" are about the only other players outside of the professionals who will ever be able to compete with or reach that realm of skill. Of course, excluding players who just have not moved over etc.
Like noted above though, practicing DOES improve your game; and you CAN achieve higher status by dedicating yourself in a smart fashion!
Hopefully this helps people understand what exactly separates a normal player and a professional 
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Oh yeah one more thing... SC2 Ranks isn't really accurate, is it. :/
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I was a local pro before in Counter Strike, in that age I didn't have good grades since I was very addicted to CS, because everytime at school all I could think of is strategies and getting the hell out of class and play all afternoon long..
We'll the thing is, if you plan on going pro definitely keep a promise to yourself that there will be a balance between the two and I promise you man, you're going to miss out meeting girls.
Anyway, listen to tyler since his like 20 x better at me when it comes to experience with that type of thing (stopped being pro at 18 and choose college)
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Maybe I'm making up complete nonsense but unless you get out there and find a team of some sort, you will get nowhere. You need practice partners, friends that can make you improve, give tips. You can't become a pro gamer without social interaction with the community, and apm like IdrA of course.
If a progamer can give a story about how hey started that would be great!
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On January 03 2011 11:55 gamerkhang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 11:52 IdrA wrote:On January 03 2011 11:43 gamerkhang wrote:
It's not like you can just play forever and become pro eventually- people don't have time for that, they have jobs and stuff to do.
thats exactly what you do LOL, yeah I worded that kind of funny but I wish progaming here in the States had the publicity it has in South Korea, oh well.
that just means it would be harder for you as there would inevitably be more competition.
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On January 03 2011 11:50 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 11:48 gamerkhang wrote:
....That's kind of funny to hear because I'm 15 right now. (lll-,-) I wish there were local teams. Well you can play as much as possible while you're in high school, while also building a good resume to apply for colleges, and in the spring of your senior year you can decide if you want to go to college and quit progaming, or not go to college and pursue progaming, or go to college and continue to work at progaming in your spare time.
Very well put. And to be quite honest, at this point one and three sound the best. There isn't a huge market for progaming atm.
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On January 03 2011 11:59 YoiChiBow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 11:55 gamerkhang wrote:On January 03 2011 11:52 IdrA wrote:On January 03 2011 11:43 gamerkhang wrote:
It's not like you can just play forever and become pro eventually- people don't have time for that, they have jobs and stuff to do.
thats exactly what you do LOL, yeah I worded that kind of funny but I wish progaming here in the States had the publicity it has in South Korea, oh well. that just means it would be harder for you as there would inevitably be more competition.
More competition=more teams=more progamers=game itself taken more seriously=what I've been wishing this whole thread.
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Not everyone can become a pro-gamer, just like not everyone has the talent to get into the NBA... its not how it works. Millions of American's play Basketball, Hundreds of Thousands play on organized teams, a few thousand actually get to play in a semi-pro level, but only a handful actually become a pro player. Why?
1) Natural talent, look at the players who play basketball, what makes them different then you and me? First it starts out physically... look at their height, their bone structure, and muscle structure. Their genes help dictate who gets into the top.
This is the same for SC. You have to be able to think fast, and accurately. When a pro looks at a group of units they can tell if they can win or will lose that battle and by around how many units. Part of this is practice, but to be able to recognize this, they need to have the ability to think quickly. Some people are born to think as quickly as a Boxer or a Fruitdealer, some are not.
2) Hard work. If you want to get into the NBA, you have to play A LOT of basketball. Hours every day, someone who play's basketball only on the weekends will never get into the NBA, you have to play for 3, 4, 5 hours a day ontop of your regular life.
In SC, its the exact same thing. You have to practice, A LOT. Look at the people who are semi-pro, look at Catz and orb, they play like 4 hours a day+. Look at actualy pros like Idra who players 8+ hours a day. You need to play A LOT, its a sacrifice, just like anything else. You go to work or school say 9 - 5 then you come home and play SC from 5 - 10 and then sleep and wake up and do the same thing over again. It's impossible to become a pro without hard work.
3) Knowing WHAT to practice. If you want to get into the NBA, you don't just play games everyday... you practice, you do layups and practice free throws. You have things to actually practice, not just playing willy-nilly you have goals.
Pro players do the same thing, when they blow off steam they play on steams and do what ever, but when they are preparing for a tournament, the stream goes off... and they practice the same build for 8 hours in a row, tweaking it until it works, then plays the same build 8 hours more to make sure its perfect. But not only that, they get other players to play against them and play the same game "hey, can you 4 gate me for the next 8 hours so I can practice a build to completely shut it down", "hey, can you banshee rush me, then transition into bio for the next 8 hours."
They have practice partners, and they train to beat certain builds. To beat 4 gates, 3 gate robo, 3 gate expo, 1-1-1, 7rr, muta-ling, etc, etc,etc... and they play vs that build over and over and over and over till they can beat if if they scout it.
Then they go "alright, go 3 gate expo, but then when i scout the expo, cancel the expo and go into robo tech" and then you play vs that where you expect 3 gate expo, but get 3 gate robo...
Its not like they just ladder a billion times in a row and get good.
- - - -
To be come a pro, its like 25% natural talent, and 75% hard work. Most people don't put in the time, the dedication... nor do they actually practice.
Listen to some of day-9's earlier shows where he talks about beating the immortal timing push from protoss and how it took him like 50 games till he finally make a build that beat the toss, and then transitioned into an expo...
- - - - -
What I'm really trying to say is... if your not willing to give up a lot of your life for SC then you won't become a pro. Just like anything else, if you want to become a pro it takes sacrifice... that means playing 4+ hours a day after work even when you don't want to. It means finding practice partners, and trying to get better. It means a lot of boring play just so you can get on stage and win some.
Do pro-basketball players WANT to shoot 1,000 free throws in a row so that they can do it perfectly when on the court? Hell no, they want to play basketball... but to do so, they need to do the boring things.
DO pro-basketball players WANT to practice for hours a day... hell no, they want to play the game... but without practice they will not be on the team.
Do pro-SC2 players want to play hours upon hours a day... probably, but a lot of the time they don't. But its worth it to win a tourney.
Do pro-SC2 players want to play vs a 4 gate, or to 4 gate for hours on end just so they can play perfectly? Fuck no! They want to fool around, play the game, and have fun... but they need to so they can get to the top of GSL.
- - - - -
Fianlly, when you go "$30/hour wtf?" dude... a private tutor for music can cost over $100/hour, most tutors for school cost $60/hour or more. You want to become a pro at SC2, well its just like become a pro at Basket-ball, or the piano, its expensive to learn from people who know more than you, but it helps.
When you go "I cant go to South Korea!" well... do aspiring actors/actresses really want to go to Hollywood? Do comp-sci students really want to go to silicone valley? Fuck no... but they have to for their passion. SC2 is no different.
If you really want to be a pro, it takes a lot of time, dedication, and a large protion of your life... you won't get there playing a few hours on the weekends...
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There are 24 hours in a day. Most people think that is barely anything but hardly anyone actually spends their time efficiently.
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win tournaments, go to sc2 tourny section, theres heaps and heaps, get known, join a league clan play in leagues etc make a name for yourself. get high on ladder beat some good players. these kinda things will help you get recognised.
i would also suggest going to MLG. if you do well there you wil lget a lot of recognition.
also OP is a fucking baller, Greg and Tyler replying on first page xD
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So..... let me throw some questions out here, since there are some great answers.
One, are there any good pro gaming teams that I can join for free around California?
Two, I'm a protoss player (played random for 500 games, then realized that I'm best as protoss) and here's where I stand with my startup builds
PvP 1gaterobo into 3gate robo, early push with a stalker immortal and zealot unless I see sentries, which is happening more and more often, and go into colossi wars status.
PvZ Usually 1gate2stargate because 4gate never cuts it, void rays to kill roaches and zealot legs to kill hydras... but usually you have to go into 2base 6gate, right? Could use some help here.
PvT How the hell? My first instinct is DT rush, but I'm not sure how to play this well at all. Do stargates help here? Vikings and marines slap them. Do robo's help? Immortals get slapped by marines. But really, my main weakness here is how to beat the 2port banshee. I've read a lot of guides, but it still is really hard for me.
Can someone help me out and practice these sorts of matchups with me?
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Push yourself to play as much as you can whether you enjoy all that extra practice or not. When your a pro at something you spend time on it because you want to be the best and get what comes with it. You have to make it hold your attention. This E-sports thing is only going to get bigger and there's a place in it for someone like you if you can push yourself to work for it consistently.
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Gamerkhang, you are obviously misunderstanding the term "pro"
A "pro" player is a someone that is contracted in a more or less business arrangement to support and show off sponsors by competing
What you are looking for is an amateur team/clan
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really a lot of misinformation in here by the non progamers. i know a lot of people take the defeatist attitude that they just cant do it and the progamers are just superbeings, but they are not, they are regular joes just like you and me, the thing that seperates them from the rest is their drive and dedication. anyone could be a progamer, but not everyone has the drive nor dedication to do so. but dont keep thinking you cant do it cause you certainly could. the reason they do so well is they have dedicated so much time to figuring every little in and out of this game and thats only something you can get from practice. they started out as noobs just like everyone else.
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On January 03 2011 12:33 ktimekiller wrote:
Gamerkhang, you are obviously misunderstanding the term "pro"
A "pro" player is a someone that is contracted in a more or less business arrangement to support and show off sponsors by competing
What you are looking for is an amateur team/clan
Amateur, but not in the gold sense. :/
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Amateur is anything that isn't under a payroll
vVv is an amateur, inflow is an amateur, tG is an amateur (as far as I know).
Because I said amateur, I did not mean shit. Any team/clan that is not under a consistent/serious payroll is an amateur and not at a pro level.
Even ROOT is amateur (though I have no proof, if anyone could clarify if they actually have any serious sponsors now). While they have great players that are very good, as far as I know, they are not under a serious sponsor with a serious payroll.
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Here's how I plan to go pro:
1) Spam ladder for 3 hours a day until I reach 3000 points.
2) Search for a semi-pro team.
3) Play for the team in team leagues. Get noticed.
4) Play solo tournaments when I feel I can reach the quarter finals. Get more noticed.
5) At this point I should be comfortably in the semi-pro category.
I'm still on step 1 but this is my plan. Going fully pro? It's not going to happen since I want to continue my education.
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Search on the internet about "deliberate practice" there are many good books on the subject and it is a special technique specifically used for improving performance in anything. Many of the books also discuss the subject of talent and have found there really is no such thing. What they do find is that the skill of a person directly depends on how much deliberate practice they have done over the years.
Many people play computer games obscene amounts, simply spamming games will make you better, but only up until a certain point, what you need to get over that hump is deliberate practice and here are the three basic concepts of it.
1.) Setting goals
2.) Immediate feedback
3.) Focusing on technique rather than outcome
I'll let you research what these three mean and how they apply to SC2.
And to directly honest your question on how to become a pro gamer, its easy, just get really good at SC2, win tournaments, and get noticed. The hard part is the getting better part.
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dedicate 6-10 hours a day. The most important thing is to is not go and just grind for 10 hours on the ladder, thats not how you get good. Nony is my prime example. He will practice builds against computers.
On the ladder, play to get better. Not to win. I practiced QXC's drop play for about 60 straight games, didn't matter the race or the positions. IdrA does this too, he will practice a build till hes got it down and then move on to something else.
I personally like making a trial account and practicing micro mechanics. Taking the edge off losing a ladder game really helps me improve.
Also if you are serious. Buy some coaching. I've bought 2 lessons from incontroL just to study the replays and see the difference in skill and what it is.
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On January 03 2011 12:52 BetterFasterStronger wrote:
dedicate 6-10 hours a day. The most important thing is to is not go and just grind for 10 hours on the ladder, thats not how you get good. Nony is my prime example. He will practice builds against computers.
On the ladder, play to get better. Not to win. I practiced QXC's drop play for about 60 straight games, didn't matter the race or the positions. IdrA does this too, he will practice a build till hes got it down and then move on to something else.
I personally like making a trial account and practicing micro mechanics. Taking the edge off losing a ladder game really helps me improve.
Also if you are serious. Buy some coaching. I've bought 2 lessons from incontroL just to study the replays and see the difference in skill and what it is.
Well the problem with that is I don't have $60 to make a scapegoat account and if I practice on ladder, I might go down a long ways- taking me further away from my dream rather than closer.
I'm not really sure if computers are good or not, but obviously I can't beat insane yet because it has resource hacks. >:[ I'm not joking.
Which leads me back to my point, CAN SOMEONE PRACTICE WITH ME? 2300 PROTOSS LOOKING FOR PvT/PvZ practice.
The practice partner thread here is just a long list of names that doesn't actually get any attention from what I see, as is the same for many large sites. :/
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just spend time with the game and massgame and you will take the natural course of learning. u will learn everything thats needed.
everything can be selflearned. u dont need classes or coaches for everything, just put your time and effort to something and u will most likely succeed becoming a "progamer"
just do whatever u believe in is right and it probably fits best for you. im sure majority of ppl who achieve their goals go about it this way
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Play the game.
It doesn't happen overnight, but every moment spent thinking about the various ways you could become a progamer is time not spent playing the game.
Other people are giving more detailed instructions about goalsetting and whatnot, but I think actually playing the game is important enough to be emphasized, because even though it's the most obvious step, barely anybody does it.
(also I feel silly giving this advice, since I'm not a progamer at all. The only reason I'm confident in saying this is because I can tell you from experience how exactly NOT to become a progamer, and that's not playing the game.)
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On January 03 2011 13:02 MorroW wrote:
just spend time with the game and massgame and you will take the natural course of learning. u will learn everything thats needed.
everything can be selflearned. u dont need classes or coaches for everything, just put your time and effort to something and u will most likely succeed becoming a "progamer"
I would practice a lot if practicing on ladder didn't have a consequence, as I've said a lot already. :/
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Don't even compare to NBA... SC2 is much easier...
you can be a sc2 progamer even if you are not talented. all you need is passion.. and maybe time..
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Time managment & dedication.
Get rid of all your "filler" things you do all day long and spent your time actually doing stuff.
"I just read TL for 5mins and then I'll start to do X". 60mins later you still read TL. Bad.
"I just watch TV/ a stream for 15mins before X". 60mins later you still do it. Bad.
If you're not motivated to do X right now - say "I will do X in 3hours/tomorrow" and then do it. It's a waste of time, if you just keep not doing it while doing uninteresting stuff in the mean time.
Say:
"I will do <fun activity Y> for 3hours then do X." Good.
As someone already mentioned:
24 hours is a lot of time 
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On January 03 2011 12:48 Lennon wrote:
Here's how I plan to go pro:
1) Spam ladder for 3 hours a day until I reach 3000 points.
2) Search for a semi-pro team.
3) Play for the team in team leagues. Get noticed.
4) Play solo tournaments when I feel I can reach the quarter finals. Get more noticed.
5) At this point I should be comfortably in the semi-pro category.
I'm still on step 1 but this is my plan. Going fully pro? It's not going to happen since I want to continue my education.
You should be playing in as many tourneys as possible
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On January 03 2011 13:03 gamerkhang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 13:02 MorroW wrote:
just spend time with the game and massgame and you will take the natural course of learning. u will learn everything thats needed.
everything can be selflearned. u dont need classes or coaches for everything, just put your time and effort to something and u will most likely succeed becoming a "progamer" I would practice a lot if practicing on ladder didn't have a consequence, as I've said a lot already. :/
well if u dont have time for it then you cant become a pro. its not an easy task and time is the most important part to have in any project
i dont quite understand what ur question is to be honest. do u want to know how one does the label progamer or get the skilllevel of a progamer
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On January 03 2011 13:02 gamerkhang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 12:52 BetterFasterStronger wrote:
dedicate 6-10 hours a day. The most important thing is to is not go and just grind for 10 hours on the ladder, thats not how you get good. Nony is my prime example. He will practice builds against computers.
On the ladder, play to get better. Not to win. I practiced QXC's drop play for about 60 straight games, didn't matter the race or the positions. IdrA does this too, he will practice a build till hes got it down and then move on to something else.
I personally like making a trial account and practicing micro mechanics. Taking the edge off losing a ladder game really helps me improve.
Also if you are serious. Buy some coaching. I've bought 2 lessons from incontroL just to study the replays and see the difference in skill and what it is. Well the problem with that is I don't have $60 to make a scapegoat account and if I practice on ladder, I might go down a long ways- taking me further away from my dream rather than closer. I'm not really sure if computers are good or not, but obviously I can't beat insane yet because it has resource hacks. >:[ I'm not joking. Which leads me back to my point, CAN SOMEONE PRACTICE WITH ME? 2300 PROTOSS LOOKING FOR PvT/PvZ practice. The practice partner thread here is just a long list of names that doesn't actually get any attention from what I see, as is the same for many large sites. :/
being high on the ladder doesnt get you any closer to your goal
avoiding practice to protect your rating is absurd. if you want to be good go play 40 games a day and stop thinking about becoming a pro.
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i really like that pros actually comment on threads like this. Makes me feel good inside . Dedication baby. dedication.
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On January 03 2011 13:05 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 12:48 Lennon wrote:
Here's how I plan to go pro:
1) Spam ladder for 3 hours a day until I reach 3000 points.
2) Search for a semi-pro team.
3) Play for the team in team leagues. Get noticed.
4) Play solo tournaments when I feel I can reach the quarter finals. Get more noticed.
5) At this point I should be comfortably in the semi-pro category.
I'm still on step 1 but this is my plan. Going fully pro? It's not going to happen since I want to continue my education. You should be playing in as many tourneys as possible
That's what I originally thought but tournaments like Zotac or Go4SC2 take up way too much time: sometimes even 1 game per hour. If you're going to get knocked out in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd round, you won't get noticed and it's a waste of time. Although, I do understand your mentality of playing in as many as possible to get tournament experience but that way is just not for me.
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On January 03 2011 13:14 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 13:02 gamerkhang wrote:On January 03 2011 12:52 BetterFasterStronger wrote:
dedicate 6-10 hours a day. The most important thing is to is not go and just grind for 10 hours on the ladder, thats not how you get good. Nony is my prime example. He will practice builds against computers.
On the ladder, play to get better. Not to win. I practiced QXC's drop play for about 60 straight games, didn't matter the race or the positions. IdrA does this too, he will practice a build till hes got it down and then move on to something else.
I personally like making a trial account and practicing micro mechanics. Taking the edge off losing a ladder game really helps me improve.
Also if you are serious. Buy some coaching. I've bought 2 lessons from incontroL just to study the replays and see the difference in skill and what it is. Well the problem with that is I don't have $60 to make a scapegoat account and if I practice on ladder, I might go down a long ways- taking me further away from my dream rather than closer. I'm not really sure if computers are good or not, but obviously I can't beat insane yet because it has resource hacks. >:[ I'm not joking. Which leads me back to my point, CAN SOMEONE PRACTICE WITH ME? 2300 PROTOSS LOOKING FOR PvT/PvZ practice. The practice partner thread here is just a long list of names that doesn't actually get any attention from what I see, as is the same for many large sites. :/ being high on the ladder doesnt get you any closer to your goal avoiding practice to protect your rating is absurd. if you want to be good go play 40 games a day and stop thinking about becoming a pro.
Idra, what convinced you to turn pro at Starcraft in general? Is it the money? Fame? Women?
When you look back 10 years down the line, what would you think of, do you play because StarCraft is fun, or is it just a job? Or is it fun with benefits?
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I am also a high school student and a fairly strong starcraft player (Just now joining a sponsored team! Yay!), and I am considering taking a gap year after high school to play starcraft (which ends for me in 2012). I want to know, though, how difficult is it to live in Korea, and how much would you say it costs minimum per month (assuming I have no desires for complicated stuff, just need food, internet, and a place to live). For anyone who is currently living there, could you answer these?
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you also don't really just "become" a progamer overnight.
Takes lots of practice/doing well in tournaments. If you love the game enough and play and practice alot you can improve to a point where you can get good results in major tournaments. But it takes tons of time/practice for most, and commitment.
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On January 03 2011 11:43 gamerkhang wrote:
It's not like you can just play forever and become pro eventually- people don't have time for that, they have jobs and stuff to do.
thats exactly what you do
haha yea
I do wish e-Sports was as popular here as it was in Korea. Perhaps even better, I wish people would come to realize that basketball, football, etc., are ALSO GAMES.
Imagine a world where there there high school starcraft teams. It would be so much more accessible to "get started" and try to go pro (like many athletes want and try to do).
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It has most likely been mentioned before but I have not read through all the posts entirely so here it goes anyhow.
You know that being a pro-gamer in itself has nothing to do with how good you are? Ofcourse its just natural that the best players are those that become pro's but in theory a bronzeplayer can be considered a pro if he just makes an considerable income of the game. So calling yourself a local pro in CS or w/e people do is simply wrong unless you are actually having some sponsorship or another kind of contract giving you an income through the game.
Semantics I know but nevertheless, lets get things straight. Not even everyone in GLS could in all honesty be considered pro's. Maybe S-class now but I doubt that everyone in 1-2-3 had a sponsored team to rely on.
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On January 03 2011 13:16 theriv wrote:i really like that pros actually comment on threads like this. Makes me feel good inside . Dedication baby. dedication.
Yes it does. :D
@ IdrA (you probably really are IdrA... right?)
I didn't actually expect to get answers from pros, at this point, I guess I'm just looking for PvT/PvZ practice partners or practice partners in general, and a team that's free to join.
Thanks for the motivation guys!
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It's mind over matter.
No it's real sports are popular and the players earn big bucks.
Grats to Nony for winning tons in TSL2, but he's not on contract to play video games.
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On January 03 2011 13:18 Almin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 13:14 IdrA wrote:On January 03 2011 13:02 gamerkhang wrote:On January 03 2011 12:52 BetterFasterStronger wrote:
dedicate 6-10 hours a day. The most important thing is to is not go and just grind for 10 hours on the ladder, thats not how you get good. Nony is my prime example. He will practice builds against computers.
On the ladder, play to get better. Not to win. I practiced QXC's drop play for about 60 straight games, didn't matter the race or the positions. IdrA does this too, he will practice a build till hes got it down and then move on to something else.
I personally like making a trial account and practicing micro mechanics. Taking the edge off losing a ladder game really helps me improve.
Also if you are serious. Buy some coaching. I've bought 2 lessons from incontroL just to study the replays and see the difference in skill and what it is. Well the problem with that is I don't have $60 to make a scapegoat account and if I practice on ladder, I might go down a long ways- taking me further away from my dream rather than closer. I'm not really sure if computers are good or not, but obviously I can't beat insane yet because it has resource hacks. >:[ I'm not joking. Which leads me back to my point, CAN SOMEONE PRACTICE WITH ME? 2300 PROTOSS LOOKING FOR PvT/PvZ practice. The practice partner thread here is just a long list of names that doesn't actually get any attention from what I see, as is the same for many large sites. :/ being high on the ladder doesnt get you any closer to your goal avoiding practice to protect your rating is absurd. if you want to be good go play 40 games a day and stop thinking about becoming a pro. Idra, what convinced you to turn pro at Starcraft in general? Is it the money? Fame? Women? When you look back 10 years down the line, what would you think of, do you play because StarCraft is fun, or is it just a job? Or is it fun with benefits?
Why do people get a job?
To earn money.
Why do people play games?
To have fun.
If you can make a living from playing games (which is an extremely rare oppotunity), I'd say it's a reasonable choice.
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[QUOTE]On January 03 2011 13:27 hellokitty[hk] wrote:[quote]No it's real sports are popular and the players earn big bucks.
Grats to Nony for winning tons in TSL2, but he's not on contract to play video games.[/quote]
As a part of TL, he pretty much is as far as pro gamers go
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On January 03 2011 13:27 hellokitty[hk] wrote:No it's real sports are popular and the players earn big bucks. Grats to Nony for winning tons in TSL2, but he's not on contract to play video games.
Mind over matter as in you have to use your head instead of getting crazy muscles.
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mind over matter to me is, just to fucking do it. Dont say your going to do it. just fucking do it.
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![[image loading]](http://i51.tinypic.com/2vsjad1.jpg)
Finally an opportunity to use this.
I suppose if you're really serious, the way to go is practice hard, compete in local tournaments and work your way up.
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[QUOTE]On January 03 2011 13:29 ktimekiller wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 03 2011 13:27 hellokitty[hk] wrote:[quote]No it's real sports are popular and the players earn big bucks.
Grats to Nony for winning tons in TSL2, but he's not on contract to play video games.[/quote]
As a part of TL, he pretty much is as far as pro gamers go[/QUOTE]
uhhhhh... aren't the Liquid members under a contract?
@any of the liquid members: if I'm wrong please correct me, as iirc I saw on the news that when HuK joined, it had a picture of him signing contracts.........
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On January 03 2011 13:02 gamerkhang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 12:52 BetterFasterStronger wrote:
dedicate 6-10 hours a day. The most important thing is to is not go and just grind for 10 hours on the ladder, thats not how you get good. Nony is my prime example. He will practice builds against computers.
On the ladder, play to get better. Not to win. I practiced QXC's drop play for about 60 straight games, didn't matter the race or the positions. IdrA does this too, he will practice a build till hes got it down and then move on to something else.
I personally like making a trial account and practicing micro mechanics. Taking the edge off losing a ladder game really helps me improve.
Also if you are serious. Buy some coaching. I've bought 2 lessons from incontroL just to study the replays and see the difference in skill and what it is. Well the problem with that is I don't have $60 to make a scapegoat account and if I practice on ladder, I might go down a long ways- taking me further away from my dream rather than closer. I'm not really sure if computers are good or not, but obviously I can't beat insane yet because it has resource hacks. >:[ I'm not joking. Which leads me back to my point, CAN SOMEONE PRACTICE WITH ME? 2300 PROTOSS LOOKING FOR PvT/PvZ practice. The practice partner thread here is just a long list of names that doesn't actually get any attention from what I see, as is the same for many large sites. :/
You won't get further away from your 'dream' by losing points. You're supposed to practice to get BETTER. If that happens by losing, so be it, you'll still get better and eventually get higher than where you were. Points don't mean shit.
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Just search for it. There's a lot of questions like yours in previous threads. You don't have to go to S. Korea, but honestly it is recommended if you are going for top-knoch proness.
The only way I see it is you ladder like crazy to get into tournaments. Then win many tourneys and get noticed by teams. Then maybe if you win enough tourneys (or impress lots of ppl) you'll be picked up by them.
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Would be nice if people who aren't progamers stopped advising what it takes to become a progamer, since they obviously don't know what they are talking about and I could learn a thing or two from this thread that's actually correct.
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why does every single time i see progamer i read programmer please people of tl pro-gamer or pro gamer stop writing progamer xD
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On January 03 2011 13:50 ace246 wrote:
Would be nice if people who aren't progamers stopped advising what it takes to become a progamer, since they obviously don't know what they are talking about and I could learn a thing or two from this thread that's actually correct.
You don't have to be somewhere to know how to get there.
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Play a shitton of games until you get good mechanics and then start worrying about the finer aspects that will get your further.
At least that's what I've come to realize is important when trying to be good at anything.
And I know I'm far from being a progamer, just my personal advice, take it or leave it..
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On January 03 2011 13:56 Lennon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 13:50 ace246 wrote:
Would be nice if people who aren't progamers stopped advising what it takes to become a progamer, since they obviously don't know what they are talking about and I could learn a thing or two from this thread that's actually correct. You don't have to be somewhere to know how to get there.
qft
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Listen to Idra, Morrow, Tyler, and all those other pros giving you advice. Insanious' post touched on it pretty well too I think. If you're really serious about it, you simply need to put in the time to practice. When I say practice, I don't mean just laddering, but also practicing bare fundamentals like simple build orders and micro tricks. For pros, ladder means nothing. It does not help you in any way other than allowing you to play opponents that would likely be at your level.
Let me put it this way: I love violin. I once thought about trying to make a living out of it and what did I have to do? Practice. By that I don't mean just playing beautiful songs like Mozart and Sibelius' concertos, but by spending hours playing the most basic of basics. Stuff like scales and etudes and shit that makes me want to sleep. Still, with all that practice, I'd say I've gotten pretty damn good. Am I going to go for music as my career though? Hell no. I don't have the time for it and I don't like my chances in the music business.
In career fields like sports, music, acting, and esports, very very few people make it. The ones that do are need luck, talent, perseverance, and time. If you have those four things, go for it, but prepare for a long hard road.
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Just to begin with my experience is with BW not SC2 in particular, but here is my statement on the matter: Just play loads until you are good enough. It's as simple as that. Naturally talented players skill will become apparent especially with younger players. An example is Kolll, a 14yo German player (not so active in SC2), reached B+ i believe on the ICCUP ladder within 6 months of just pure mass laddering, his peak of BW he managed to get 4th at WCG behind all the Koreans and knocking out IdrA. That's an insane jump in skill level in a short period of time and proves its possible.
You don't need any outside help, practicing anything specific, you just need to play play play, adapt every game, be intelligent enough to realize where you need to improve and just KEEP PLAYING, keep playing until you can see no mistakes in your play (it's impossible but you try and get as little as possible). If you're good enough you'll stand out simply from mass-laddering. If you're not good enough then maybe you just aren't good enough and wasting time spending money on coaching (complete joke imo taking money from stupid people who will never compete seriously) isn't going to help you.
All the known foreigners you know about didn't use any gimmicks or shortcuts to get better at BW originally, they just played a lot of games and it became apparent they were better. And from there you get into clans enter tournaments etc. Having good practice partners is always nice but they won't be there to play you all the time plus it's better to play a variety of players, exposing you to every strategy possible.
This is just an opinion but personally if i think the APM and keyboard usage of groups/hotkeys comes naturally and easily to you and you can get to the 200 and above level then you can probably progress further, but if you can't it'll be hard to force it - just my opinion but i think that's the level you have to be at. Some people say APM doesn't matter but there's a minimum required to compete. I hear stories of people a lot less than that getting higher in the ladder these days but i question in what manner they they are reaching that level and if they are well-rounded players capable of lategames with such low APMs.
At the end of the day some people just happen to be better at this than others and will learn much quicker, and most of us won't be and will hit a 'wall' in our play. Personally it's my APM. It's too low to multitask enough and i don't think even with mass gaming i'd be able to do much better without seriously playing like its a job. If you reach a point like that you have to ask yourself is it worth forcing yourself further. In contrast i have a friend who's top 100 USA somewhere, that mechanics and the game seem to come naturally to him and he doesn't even particularly play much and was only C in BW. Could probably compete if he put the effort into it more. Maybe you're that guy instead of me. Go play more and find out.
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On January 03 2011 14:30 Ryuu314 wrote:
Listen to Idra, Morrow, Tyler, and all those other pros giving you advice. Insanious' post touched on it pretty well too I think. If you're really serious about it, you simply need to put in the time to practice. When I say practice, I don't mean just laddering, but also practicing bare fundamentals like simple build orders and micro tricks. For pros, ladder means nothing. It does not help you in any way other than allowing you to play opponents that would likely be at your level.
Let me put it this way: I love violin. I once thought about trying to make a living out of it and what did I have to do? Practice. By that I don't mean just playing beautiful songs like Mozart and Sibelius' concertos, but by spending hours playing the most basic of basics. Stuff like scales and etudes and shit that makes me want to sleep. Still, with all that practice, I'd say I've gotten pretty damn good. Am I going to go for music as my career though? Hell no. I don't have the time for it and I don't like my chances in the music business.
In career fields like sports, music, acting, and esports, very very few people make it. The ones that do are need luck, talent, perseverance, and time. If you have those four things, go for it, but prepare for a long hard road.
Sorry but i completely disagree you need to practice in any other way than laddering at least to begin with, before you are actually practicing someone specific for a tournament or whatever. Mass gaming is what the pro's do, and the ladder is where someone wanting to be pro is going to have to do it Even pro's mass ladder sometimes instead of simply inhouse practice. Micro tricks and situations will be practiced during this time so why the need to separate it? It's the best way you're gonna face a wide variety of strategies and styles and prepare yourself for anything.
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On January 03 2011 14:35 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 14:30 Ryuu314 wrote:
Listen to Idra, Morrow, Tyler, and all those other pros giving you advice. Insanious' post touched on it pretty well too I think. If you're really serious about it, you simply need to put in the time to practice. When I say practice, I don't mean just laddering, but also practicing bare fundamentals like simple build orders and micro tricks. For pros, ladder means nothing. It does not help you in any way other than allowing you to play opponents that would likely be at your level.
Let me put it this way: I love violin. I once thought about trying to make a living out of it and what did I have to do? Practice. By that I don't mean just playing beautiful songs like Mozart and Sibelius' concertos, but by spending hours playing the most basic of basics. Stuff like scales and etudes and shit that makes me want to sleep. Still, with all that practice, I'd say I've gotten pretty damn good. Am I going to go for music as my career though? Hell no. I don't have the time for it and I don't like my chances in the music business.
In career fields like sports, music, acting, and esports, very very few people make it. The ones that do are need luck, talent, perseverance, and time. If you have those four things, go for it, but prepare for a long hard road. Sorry but i completely disagree you need to practice in any other way than laddering at least to begin with, before you are actually practicing someone specific for a tournament or whatever. Mass gaming is what the pro's do, and the ladder is where someone wanting to be pro is going to have to do it Even pro's mass ladder sometimes instead of simply inhouse practice. Micro tricks and situations will be practiced during this time so why the need to separate it? It's the best way you're gonna face a wide variety of strategies and styles and prepare yourself for anything.
I probably didn't word it as well as I could have, but I agree that laddering is good practice in that it allows you to prepare for a wide variety of things. However, if OP wants to become pro, simply practicing on ladder and mass gaming isn't enough. You also have to practice specific scenarios and specific parts of the game. For example, in the GSL, there are plenty of players who only really shine in the early game and completely fail when it comes to late game. For them, mass laddering may not really help anymore simply because all it does is reinforce what they're already good at. The best players in the GSL are good at every aspect of the game. That's what anyone wanting to become pro should aspire to. Being able to play all aspects of the game well is necessary for one to become pro and to practice that requires more than just mass ladder gaming.
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I'd like to become a progamer ^^. Balancing school and practice will be hard, but I am willing to put in the effort. It has been my dream for awhile now, and I'd like to make it reality.
The reality is...It is going to be a shitload of work. But I won't let that stop me.
I think the biggest thing of all is learning from your mistakes, and CORRECTING them as soon as possible. Practice does not mean anything if you are practicing wrong.
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You just jumped to GSL level from nothing though. Once you're at a certain level then you can dedicated yourself to focusing practice prehaps, but until then no point in advising that? And by that point if you're good enough you'll probably know what you need to practice and certainly won't need advice from us. Just ladder until you're beating good people on the ladder regularly yourself - that's it. Then you can enter tournaments and practice specific things.
Even then, I mean really if you ladder hard enough you could even enter tournaments without specific practice and just make your all-around game solid enough that you are confident against anything. That would be a good position to get yourself into where you can enter a low level tournament and have enough games played that you've experienced enough situations to get you through it.
If i use the Kolll example again i'm pretty sure while he was in a clan his practice was still mainly ICCUP laddering, and he got 4th of WCG just based from that. The race he played may have helped, Zerg (because he could dictate the direction of the games into the way he wanted with aggressive 2hatch muta builds that he was especially good at etc.) but i think the example still stands. You can win these small tournaments solely from laddering for sure.
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On January 03 2011 13:25 gamerkhang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 13:16 theriv wrote:i really like that pros actually comment on threads like this. Makes me feel good inside . Dedication baby. dedication. Yes it does. :D @ IdrA (you probably really are IdrA... right?) I didn't actually expect to get answers from pros, at this point, I guess I'm just looking for PvT/PvZ practice partners or practice partners in general, and a team that's free to join. Thanks for the motivation guys!
Keep in mind that mass laddering is also a way to find practice partners (by just adding them to fl after a good game)
Also you say TL practice partner thread is just some meaningless list but if you have no good PPs yet then just add 30 people at once, I have 0 doubt you will find good partners out of those 30 people.
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Just place high in tourneys and you'll eventually get noticed. Continue from that.
There's literally nothing else you can do. Sponsors don't want someone who can't win a tourney.
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On January 03 2011 13:03 gamerkhang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 13:02 MorroW wrote:
just spend time with the game and massgame and you will take the natural course of learning. u will learn everything thats needed.
everything can be selflearned. u dont need classes or coaches for everything, just put your time and effort to something and u will most likely succeed becoming a "progamer" I would practice a lot if practicing on ladder didn't have a consequence, as I've said a lot already. :/
Get practice partners to work out your kinks in your play. Should be a lot easier to find practice partners next patch.
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What part of California are you in?
I'm in Southern, right next to LA, around where Day[9] lives, I'm actually planning on attending the college that he works at lol
Speaking of Day[9], definitely watch the Day[9] Daily, you'll learn soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. I learned a lot just by watching 1.
If you improve one thing every single day, and it sticks, a year will have gone by and you'll be 365x better. That's how I think of it.
Btw, I'm still ranked pretty slow, but if you ever wanna PvT just add XDJuicebox.210
I'm actually thinking about getting all of the people in my area (my school particularly) and like making a collection of nerds, and teach them everything I know, and then we use each other for the practice partners.
EDIT: Notice how I said nothing about being a progamer
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you could try hitting up PC cafes and challenging people to bet games? Or just entering as many tournaments as you can in your area/online and trying to win money to garner support and following.
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Instead of nail biting what the massive change to your life it could be just go take that first small step.
Go join a bunch of the small online tourneys or any local in your area and win them.
Lots of big tourneys also hold qualifiers for spots, so go to them and try it out.
Get your feet wet before deciding to dedicate your life to it.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 03 2011 11:46 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Everyone became good enough to go pro while doing school full time, just like sports. The only major difference is that you're kinda on your own. Like you say, there are no local teams and no free coaching.
END OF THREAD. IM PRETTY SURE YOU CAN FIGURE THIS STUFF OUT WITH SOME SIMPLE REASONING. IM TYPING IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE IN ALL SERIOUSNESS NEVER MAKE THREADS LIKE THIS PLEASE THANKS.
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Isn't progaming like everything?
You fail and fail and fail some more until you actually become good enough that you hopefully reap some rewards?
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On January 03 2011 11:50 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 11:48 gamerkhang wrote:
....That's kind of funny to hear because I'm 15 right now. (lll-,-) I wish there were local teams. Well you can play as much as possible while you're in high school, while also building a good resume to apply for colleges, and in the spring of your senior year you can decide if you want to go to college and quit progaming, or not go to college and pursue progaming, or go to college and continue to work at progaming in your spare time.
I see it now: Parent upset over Childs decision to give up life and play video games, is "pro gamer" nony to blame!?
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This guy really isn't looking to become pro. He's just looking to get better, get some practice partners, talk to ppl who know more than he does on a regular basis, play in some tourneys, and get higher on ladder.
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I really would like to encourage people who want to become a progamer to think about their FURTHER future. Not 5 ~ 10 years but perhaps 20+ years ahead.
Sure being a progamer could be a very rewarding profession, but we cant neglect the fact that there is a age limit in which you have to stop gaming. Competing in progaming scene when your 50 years old, just wont cut it.
So, think of it as a side job. You should seek to find a profession that would reward you in the long run.
Not just 5 ~ 10 years. Hope you make a great choice.
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I'm going to use the same reply I do in every pro gaming thread I have ever posted in...
Practice on the ladder with the intention of becoming a professional level player, then go from there. So far you've given excuses as to why you can't do this can't do that, but if you're serious about it, you have to do the things these pros are telling you. For the record, 2300 is bonus pool level. As in, 3 or 4 major skill levels away from the pros on the ladder. In terms of skill, you are too far away to not do these things IdrA, Morrow, and Tyler are telling you.
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I'd like to look into how every sport got it's beginning and what it was like to try being a pro at the start of those sports. I can't imagine it being very much different then the mindset of the current progamer where they see the risk and everyone tells them not to do it but they do because they are crazy in love with what they do. If you want to be a pro gamer at this point in time it's not so much a choice as it is a sickly amount of passion for the game.
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I'm pretty sure of the top 200, probably 140 of them go to school, have a part time or full time job alongside that, etc. Even a lot of pros signed to teams have full time jobs or go to college still. It can be done.
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Get to competitive amateur status before you think of pro.
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Learn to use your time efficently. Practice with intent. Enter competitions. They are Pro.. because they make a living doing this, stay in school, study, get a good education. Then look at how many hours a day you can dedicated and make allowances properly without wrecking anything else. It's the same when you want to improve with anything, Musical instruments, Languages... you have to sacrifice something. Free time usually.
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I asked this very same question to a quake pro back when I started playing quake 3 in '06 or something. He said one thing (and at the end of the day, it's the only thing that needs to be said.)
"Practice, practice, practice."
If you do that, you'll become a good player. Become good enough and you'll get noticed. Get noticed and eventually someone will pick you up.
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I would like to add something to this without repeating someone's post here. There's a point in time when you mass games to become a better player, you get tired of losing and will most likely rage quit on those lost games and not ever look back at those replays and analyze them. If you really want to become a pro, really analyze those replays and learn from them. When you watch your own replays, you should ask yourself questions such as the following:
1. Did I scout as often as I should to know what my opponent is up to every second?
2. Am I multitasking hard to keep making workers, armies, build production buildings and tech buildings at right times, scout my enemy, and efficiently microing my armies at battles?
3. How can I efficiently use hotkeys and mouse clicks so that I don't unnecessarily spam APM that does nothing for me to win games?
4. Am I spending the right amount of resources in order to get a right unit composition in appropriate times that correspondingly counters my opponent's without sacrificing my economy a lot (think about this in terms of opportunity cost)?
5. Am I supply-capping myself?
And study today's SC2 progamers' replays if you have time. As you watch pros' replays, think about why they made such decisions at those specific situations and what you could've done differently. Think about whether you agree with those pros' decisions or not. Look at their minimap and their resources and food counters. See how those numbers flow and how they are spent. Learn how pros control their gameflow with their decision making skills.
P.S. - I'm not a pro; there was a clan named PrO) in SC:BW on iCCup server a long time ago that disappeared now.
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EPT
