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Everyone keeps saying "They asked the tournament staff if it was ok and were told no, so they didn't do it. No problem." I would totally agree that this doesn't sound like it's a problem at all.
However, what it actually sounds like to me was happening was that they were making plans to do something that they knew was unacceptable. If they really saw nothing wrong with it, they wouldn't have worried about what they were said being seen. They were then caught planning to cheat. Their response was "What? this? we were just talking about maybe doing this." And then they went to the tournament staff and said "Are we allowed to cheat?" and the tournament staff said no, so they decided not to.
Is there any reason to believe that they were actually planning to ask the tournament staff permission to do this before they were caught? If so, then I for one am willing to entirely forget the whole thing.... but that really doesn't sound like it was their plan. And unless that was, all of this "they asked the organizers" and "they didn't actually do it" stuff is totally irrelevant.
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Almisael
Austria235 Posts
On December 23 2010 00:28 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 00:15 SmoKim wrote:Re-posting because people posting before reading as always On December 22 2010 23:41 Ipp wrote:
This is entirely blown out of proportion and incorrect. Do you honestly think a previous IEM winner is stupid enough to talk about match fixing while streaming? This news story comes from rakaka and as TLO stated in the TeamLiquid post regaurding this situation: “I wouldn’t take news that origins from rakaka too seriously thoe. They are basically the sun of e-sports so always read their posts with caution”.
So what happened? The event is a set of 18 “LAN” tournaments that will not be streamed. If you win 11 out of the 18, you get a very nice computer. As MorroW and SjoW are the only 2 pros competing, they plan to get to the finals every time. As they are equal in skill level, it is unlikely for one them to go 11 and 18. So they discussed making a pact starting that one will always forfeit; why? Because if they unlock all the prizes both of them can get a 1st place prize pool and come out winners.
They were caught talking about doing it, since then they talked to the admins to ask if it was ok. The admin said no, so one of them will drop out but they will still share the prize. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Is it a shame they are avoiding playing eachother so they can make more money? Yes but it’s because of the tournament setup, financially it is a no brainer.
Still don’t understand?
* it’s local LANs with not many spectators and not being streamed
* they talked to admins, the leaked convo was them realizing they could both get a 1st place prize pool
* they were going to forfeit, now one dropped out
* there was never a fixed match
I hope that settles this issue and if you are part of the media please verify before you post. Also shame on any site who just reposted Rakaka’s article, get some original content. In otherwords, Match Fixing? Don’t Worry, tahts BW. Thanks Ipp for clarifying. I think the fact that they went to the tournament admins about this first shows they were doing the right thing. Sjow/Morrow Fighting!!
hmm there has to be something wrong with that:
ipp says:
"They were caught talking about doing it, since then they talked to the admins to ask if it was ok. The admin said no, so one of them will drop out but they will still share the prize."
and the op says:
"As if this wasn't enough, Rakaka have received reports that one of the admins of Inferno Online's SC2-tournament, the well known Swedish SC2-commentator and tournament admin Marcel "Maven" Mattsson, has given his "approval" for the planed throwaway game."
so one says "no" the other one "yes" -_-;.
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On December 23 2010 00:31 aristarchus wrote:
Everyone keeps saying "They asked the tournament staff if it was ok and were told no, so they didn't do it. No problem." I would totally agree that this doesn't sound like it's a problem at all.
However, what it actually sounds like to me was happening was that they were making plans to do something that they knew was unacceptable. If they really saw nothing wrong with it, they wouldn't have worried about what they were said being seen. They were then caught planning to cheat. Their response was "What? this? we were just talking about maybe doing this." And then they went to the tournament staff and said "Are we allowed to cheat?" and the tournament staff said no, so they decided not to.
Is there any reason to believe that they were actually planning to ask the tournament staff permission to do this before they were caught? If so, then I for one am willing to entirely forget the whole thing.... but that really doesn't sound like it was their plan. And unless that was, all of this "they asked the organizers" and "they didn't actually do it" stuff is totally irrelevant.
why is this cheating ?? its getting a bigger prize by not playing your best, or not playing at all
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On December 23 2010 00:34 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 00:31 aristarchus wrote:
Everyone keeps saying "They asked the tournament staff if it was ok and were told no, so they didn't do it. No problem." I would totally agree that this doesn't sound like it's a problem at all.
However, what it actually sounds like to me was happening was that they were making plans to do something that they knew was unacceptable. If they really saw nothing wrong with it, they wouldn't have worried about what they were said being seen. They were then caught planning to cheat. Their response was "What? this? we were just talking about maybe doing this." And then they went to the tournament staff and said "Are we allowed to cheat?" and the tournament staff said no, so they decided not to.
Is there any reason to believe that they were actually planning to ask the tournament staff permission to do this before they were caught? If so, then I for one am willing to entirely forget the whole thing.... but that really doesn't sound like it was their plan. And unless that was, all of this "they asked the organizers" and "they didn't actually do it" stuff is totally irrelevant. why is this cheating ?? its getting a bigger prize by not playing your best, or not playing at all
Because the point behind the bigger prize is for someone to earn it by going undefeated.
Yes, it's a system that can be gamed very easily, but that is clearly not what the tournament hosts intended when they designed the tournament this way.
If GSL had a win streak bonus or something, would you think it's acceptable for people to throw games so that someone could get it? Do you think that's why something like that would be implemented?
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On December 23 2010 00:30 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 00:11 dakalro wrote:On December 23 2010 00:02 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 22 2010 23:46 TrainFX wrote:
Seems to me that the root of the problem is the way the grand prize in the tournament has been organized. As sjow pointed out the way things work, match fixing is encouraged. None of this would have happened if you simply needed the most wins in order to win the laptop.
Something to keep in mind for tournament organizers out there, we're only human after all... There a a few posts like this and IMO it is a ridiculous sense of entitlement. No one has to sponsor a tournament. No on has to throw up a $6000 computer as a prize. Pro gaming NEEDS these sponsors to survive but this thread is full of people complaining about how they offer a prize. How about if you don't like the terms, you don't play in the tournament? How about if you don't like how the tournament is run, get your own $6000 to give away however you like? It's not sponsorship. It's one company (i-cafe type) pulling a publicity stunt while encouraging non-competition. They make the contest to bring in players to come spend money at their place. Period. They're not throwing $6K, they're throwing $2K and the best way for good players to win here is only for one to play so in the end that's what they're doing, not playing because it's the best chance to win maximum amount of the prizes. Better read the damn thread before posting, will you? Uh yeah, I know it's not a sponsorship, and the prize is a $6000 computer. I am not defending how well the tournament is run, if they don't like it, don't participate. It's that simple. The are not entitled to match fix to make the tournament more desirable to them. No one is forcing them to come in and spend their money.
That's exactly what one of them is doing, and benefits from doing so compared to winning it all in tough competition.
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On December 22 2010 22:18 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I'm going to leave one post on this and one alone.
This kind of bullshit harms the reputation of eSports and sets the cause of getting it taken seriously by sponsors, spectators and the world as a whole back.
This same thing happened at the i41 finals. The two finalists agreed to split the pot, went random, played lazy games because there was no competitive drive there and made a mockery of the tournament. They did this for £5000, a larger prize than this laptop. The fact that there was not more of a stink thrown about it is ridiculous. There is a reason prizes are tiered, to ensure there is a strong incentive to play to the best of your ability in order to win the larger prize.
If you are not willing to play in the spirit of the tournament, do not play at all. I personally find this behaviour extremely distasteful and harmful to the scene as a whole. The fact that people are siding with the players on this issue rather than the sponsors just goes to show how little people really understand about the synergy between sponsors and players, required to create a successful eSports scene. The behaviour of both players is deplorable, particularly in the language they used, it is embarrassing. It is good that one of them stepped out of the tournament but the fact that some people don't see the problem with this behaviour is mindboggling and shows a fairly clear bias towards the players, which has no rational basis.
I agree with you. And it is even worse then this. One of them stepped out but they are still sharing the prize. One stepping one is so they can win the 11 win prize, not because they are ashamed of what they tried to do. If they were both would step out of the tournament.
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On December 23 2010 00:23 Armsved wrote:
This isnt poker boys, you cannot split.
The comparison to poker is interesting, as the poker scene also consists of people that know each other who like to make various arrangements with each other outside the game. Like side-bets, percentage of price money sharing, agreements to go all-in before the flop in heads up battles, the standing agreement to take out the shorter stack players first in a final table, sleeper and straddle bets, pot splitting, rabbit hunt bets etc.
The tournament holders in poker does various things to stop this. In some places (although noteably not in Vegas) straddle and sleeper bets are disallowed. Former bw pro Elky got disqualified from the 2008 World Championship of Online Poker for agreeing to go all-in before the flop with another player.
Players and sponsors/tournaments have always fought over how the game should be played. They both are dependent on each other,and they both try to maximize their profit from each other. It's the way of any professional scene.
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On December 22 2010 23:41 Ipp wrote:
This is entirely blown out of proportion and incorrect. Do you honestly think a previous IEM winner is stupid enough to talk about match fixing while streaming? ....Match Fixing? Don’t Worry, tahts BW....
there is nothing wrong with "worrying" about match fixing or having a healthy level of skepticism.
I'll be skeptical of any result if there is evidence that points in that direction. If it can happen with BW it can happen in SC2... in fact it probably already has happened in SC2... no one has been caught.
in their talk with each other .. one asks the other if the character on the screen are too blurry to be seen by others...
so at least one intended to hide their communication...
if they intended to go straight to the admins and propose a choreographed result why worry about hiding it?
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On December 23 2010 00:34 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 00:31 aristarchus wrote:
Everyone keeps saying "They asked the tournament staff if it was ok and were told no, so they didn't do it. No problem." I would totally agree that this doesn't sound like it's a problem at all.
However, what it actually sounds like to me was happening was that they were making plans to do something that they knew was unacceptable. If they really saw nothing wrong with it, they wouldn't have worried about what they were said being seen. They were then caught planning to cheat. Their response was "What? this? we were just talking about maybe doing this." And then they went to the tournament staff and said "Are we allowed to cheat?" and the tournament staff said no, so they decided not to.
Is there any reason to believe that they were actually planning to ask the tournament staff permission to do this before they were caught? If so, then I for one am willing to entirely forget the whole thing.... but that really doesn't sound like it was their plan. And unless that was, all of this "they asked the organizers" and "they didn't actually do it" stuff is totally irrelevant. why is this cheating ?? its getting a bigger prize by not playing your best, or not playing at all
No, you don't get a bigger prize for not playing your best. You get paid off to not play your best. It's the same as getting paid to lose in any sport.
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On December 23 2010 00:25 Dante08 wrote:
Yes it is unethical but they aren't breaking any rules or doing anything illegal. It's not like you're under a pro team or a contract.
mousesports and Dignitas ring any bell?
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On December 23 2010 00:38 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 00:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 23 2010 00:11 dakalro wrote:On December 23 2010 00:02 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 22 2010 23:46 TrainFX wrote:
Seems to me that the root of the problem is the way the grand prize in the tournament has been organized. As sjow pointed out the way things work, match fixing is encouraged. None of this would have happened if you simply needed the most wins in order to win the laptop.
Something to keep in mind for tournament organizers out there, we're only human after all... There a a few posts like this and IMO it is a ridiculous sense of entitlement. No one has to sponsor a tournament. No on has to throw up a $6000 computer as a prize. Pro gaming NEEDS these sponsors to survive but this thread is full of people complaining about how they offer a prize. How about if you don't like the terms, you don't play in the tournament? How about if you don't like how the tournament is run, get your own $6000 to give away however you like? It's not sponsorship. It's one company (i-cafe type) pulling a publicity stunt while encouraging non-competition. They make the contest to bring in players to come spend money at their place. Period. They're not throwing $6K, they're throwing $2K and the best way for good players to win here is only for one to play so in the end that's what they're doing, not playing because it's the best chance to win maximum amount of the prizes. Better read the damn thread before posting, will you? Uh yeah, I know it's not a sponsorship, and the prize is a $6000 computer. I am not defending how well the tournament is run, if they don't like it, don't participate. It's that simple. The are not entitled to match fix to make the tournament more desirable to them. No one is forcing them to come in and spend their money. That's exactly what one of them is doing, and benefits from doing so compared to winning it all in tough competition.
Yeah, after they got caught.
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How can people be so god damned fucking stupid?
We KNOW for a fact that they checked with the admins first. They did NOT ask the admins later on once being caught " in the act " to " clear their hands ".
The ONLY thing you can accuse them for is that they wanted to do this. Other than that they have done nothing. And in my personal opinion thats not even anything wrong considering the stupid format of the tournament. But even though they wanted to do it, they checked to see if it was OK first.
SjoW, on the chat: "I don't want to cheat"
And the only reason anyone thinks they matchfixed or did anything bad in the first place is because of that retarded rakkaka article.
Jesus tittyfucking christ.
As for why they would want to hide their conversation - look at this thread for why.
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On December 23 2010 00:31 Almisael wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 00:28 rastaban wrote:On December 23 2010 00:15 SmoKim wrote:Re-posting because people posting before reading as always On December 22 2010 23:41 Ipp wrote:
This is entirely blown out of proportion and incorrect. Do you honestly think a previous IEM winner is stupid enough to talk about match fixing while streaming? This news story comes from rakaka and as TLO stated in the TeamLiquid post regaurding this situation: “I wouldn’t take news that origins from rakaka too seriously thoe. They are basically the sun of e-sports so always read their posts with caution”.
So what happened? The event is a set of 18 “LAN” tournaments that will not be streamed. If you win 11 out of the 18, you get a very nice computer. As MorroW and SjoW are the only 2 pros competing, they plan to get to the finals every time. As they are equal in skill level, it is unlikely for one them to go 11 and 18. So they discussed making a pact starting that one will always forfeit; why? Because if they unlock all the prizes both of them can get a 1st place prize pool and come out winners.
They were caught talking about doing it, since then they talked to the admins to ask if it was ok. The admin said no, so one of them will drop out but they will still share the prize. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Is it a shame they are avoiding playing eachother so they can make more money? Yes but it’s because of the tournament setup, financially it is a no brainer.
Still don’t understand?
* it’s local LANs with not many spectators and not being streamed
* they talked to admins, the leaked convo was them realizing they could both get a 1st place prize pool
* they were going to forfeit, now one dropped out
* there was never a fixed match
I hope that settles this issue and if you are part of the media please verify before you post. Also shame on any site who just reposted Rakaka’s article, get some original content. In otherwords, Match Fixing? Don’t Worry, tahts BW. Thanks Ipp for clarifying. I think the fact that they went to the tournament admins about this first shows they were doing the right thing. Sjow/Morrow Fighting!! hmm there has to be something wrong with that: ipp says: "They were caught talking about doing it, since then they talked to the admins to ask if it was ok. The admin said no, so one of them will drop out but they will still share the prize." and the op says: "As if this wasn't enough, Rakaka have received reports that one of the admins of Inferno Online's SC2-tournament, the well known Swedish SC2-commentator and tournament admin Marcel "Maven" Mattsson, has given his "approval" for the planed throwaway game." so one says "no" the other one "yes" -_-;.
The tournament admin Maven said they couldn't do anything about it as it wasn't strictly against the rules. Inferno Online's owner said no matchfixing allowed.
Rakaka is in the middle of everything and incites all parties against each other like Jerry Springer.
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* it’s local LANs with not many spectators and not being streamed
A very good point to justify an action
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well friends and team mates have been doing this since esports started so its not a shock at all.
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On December 23 2010 00:45 vOdToasT wrote:
How can people be so god damned fucking stupid?
We KNOW for a fact that they checked with the admins first. They did NOT ask the admins later on once being caught " in the act " to " clear their hands ".
The ONLY thing you can accuse them for is that they wanted to do this. Other than that they have done nothing. And in my personal opinion thats not even anything wrong considering the stupid format of the tournament. But even though they wanted to do it, they checked to see if it was OK first.
SjoW, on the chat: "I don't want to cheat"
And the only reason anyone thinks they matchfixed or did anything bad in the first place is because of that retarded rakkaka article.
Jesus tittyfucking christ.
As for why they would want to hide their conversation - look at this thread for why.
No they did not ask "the admins" they asked one admin who obviously didn't have the authority to allow this because they made one drop out.
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On December 23 2010 00:45 vOdToasT wrote:
How can people be so god damned fucking stupid?
We KNOW for a fact that they checked with the admins first. They did NOT ask the admins later on once being caught " in the act " to " clear their hands ".
The ONLY thing you can accuse them for is that they wanted to do this. Other than that they have done nothing. And in my personal opinion thats not even anything wrong considering the stupid format of the tournament. But even though they wanted to do it, they checked to see if it was OK first.
SjoW, on the chat: "I don't want to cheat"
And the only reason anyone thinks they matchfixed or did anything bad in the first place is because of that retarded rakkaka article.
Jesus tittyfucking christ.
As for why they would want to hide their conversation - look at this thread for why.
Put this in the OP too.
What "map fixers" would ask the admins first if it was ok?
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On December 23 2010 00:37 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 00:34 cilinder007 wrote:On December 23 2010 00:31 aristarchus wrote:
Everyone keeps saying "They asked the tournament staff if it was ok and were told no, so they didn't do it. No problem." I would totally agree that this doesn't sound like it's a problem at all.
However, what it actually sounds like to me was happening was that they were making plans to do something that they knew was unacceptable. If they really saw nothing wrong with it, they wouldn't have worried about what they were said being seen. They were then caught planning to cheat. Their response was "What? this? we were just talking about maybe doing this." And then they went to the tournament staff and said "Are we allowed to cheat?" and the tournament staff said no, so they decided not to.
Is there any reason to believe that they were actually planning to ask the tournament staff permission to do this before they were caught? If so, then I for one am willing to entirely forget the whole thing.... but that really doesn't sound like it was their plan. And unless that was, all of this "they asked the organizers" and "they didn't actually do it" stuff is totally irrelevant. why is this cheating ?? its getting a bigger prize by not playing your best, or not playing at all Because the point behind the bigger prize is for someone to earn it by going undefeated. Yes, it's a system that can be gamed very easily, but that is clearly not what the tournament hosts intended when they designed the tournament this way. If GSL had a win streak bonus or something, would you think it's acceptable for people to throw games so that someone could get it? Do you think that's why something like that would be implemented?
This... I don't know why this is a discussion. It's fine if one of them drops and split the cash (if the winner wants to give his cash away)... but if they are both competing in the tournament... they both should be trying. You guys would be losing your sh*t IF Jinro threw his matches because he thought MC had a better chance at winning GSL. You can try to look at a different perspectives but it's still unethical and sad to see. All of this is heresay so it's fun to jump to conclusions... Either way, they are doing everything legit so get over it.
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Not really against any rules, but still it just seems dirty. This just leaves a bad taste in my mouth knowing that some people do this or want to do this. Definitely lost some respect for Morrow and Sjow.
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On December 23 2010 00:31 aristarchus wrote:
Everyone keeps saying "They asked the tournament staff if it was ok and were told no, so they didn't do it. No problem." I would totally agree that this doesn't sound like it's a problem at all.
However, what it actually sounds like to me was happening was that they were making plans to do something that they knew was unacceptable. If they really saw nothing wrong with it, they wouldn't have worried about what they were said being seen. They were then caught planning to cheat. Their response was "What? this? we were just talking about maybe doing this." And then they went to the tournament staff and said "Are we allowed to cheat?" and the tournament staff said no, so they decided not to.
Is there any reason to believe that they were actually planning to ask the tournament staff permission to do this before they were caught? If so, then I for one am willing to entirely forget the whole thing.... but that really doesn't sound like it was their plan. And unless that was, all of this "they asked the organizers" and "they didn't actually do it" stuff is totally irrelevant.
I was watching Morrow's stream at the time and Morrow said something like "Make sure it's ok, I don't want to cheat". I can't remember the exact words since I didn't know what they were talking about at the time (and thus didn't care that much), but I strongly remember "I don't want to cheat", so I don't think they were "caught".
EDIT: Seeing vOdToasT's post, maybe it was SjoW who said it. At least one of them did 
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EPT
