|
On December 07 2010 16:55 Xxavi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 16:52 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 07 2010 16:47 ectonym wrote:On December 07 2010 16:37 Xxavi wrote:On December 07 2010 16:27 Acayex wrote:On December 07 2010 16:16 Xxavi wrote:
This pisses me off, they wait and watch how other races have to adapt for so long, yet they give up after Zerg outcry. I mean, they are seriously not doing a good job with their adjustments.
Just because Idra pops up in every other thread and QQs about balance and says he is actually the best player around, and only loses to scrubs because the game is imbalanced does not mean it is true. People here should be more open to discussion. The game is weird right now, if other races allow Zerg to expand, they are done. The bunkers are good.
Terran should be able to cheese or at least it should be an option so that Zergs don't get to expand everywhere. Fungal growth affecting air units or not is a toss up for me, but seeing that Protoss cannot do that to terran mediavac, I don't see why Zerg should. But it's a toss up. I'm sure they watched Zerg try to adapt to 5 rax reapers for a long time. Somethings they feel like needs changes. I highly doubt Blizzard even listens to Idra since he'll complain about anything if he's in a bad mood. Terran do have the option to cheese, and effectively too. Look at this season's GSL. I won't mention any games but there's plenty of Terran cheeses that basically make Zerg hatch first builds suicidal on certain maps. Well, there you go, there are certain maps, where you shouldn't go hatch first. Really, I am all for macro games, but some people, especially Zerg players, idea of macro is that they are sitting comfortably on 4 expansions with +40 supply over his terran/toss opponent. How is that any balanced? It's freaking clear they will win. I watched that Ret's game vs Protoss player. In that first game, the Toss player killed 2-3 large armies of Ret. Ret didn't seem to be controlling his units at all, just sending for massacre. Yet, he is comfortably sitting on 5 expansions, and taking gold, so he can keep pumping units. Was he the better player in the first game? Absolutely not for me, yet he got praised for macro. Good Zergs make it look ridiculous if you don't pressure them early. Cheese or not cheese, if you let NesTea alive for more than 10 minutes, that's it, you can as well gg. Like I said I'm not a top player by any stretch, but I recently embarked on the mission to teach my FPS-playing roommate how to play SC2. I've played SC1 since 2003 but always casually. But I did make sure to tell him on his first or second time sitting down to the game, you never, ever leave a Zerg player alone. You can't just let the Zerg sit in their base; in fact it should be on page 1 of the strategy guide for new players. (btw, roommate plays terran exclusively, i play zerg) I'm not sure this is a problem, meaning the fact that a Zerg left alone for 10 minutes on 5 expansions isn't a game balance problem, I think instead it's a problem of the opponent not doing what is needed to stop the Swarm: pressure. Force the Zerg to make units instead of drones. @DonKey_ from Liechtenstein: And my comment about Zerg tears winning again was a joke. I'm confident the change wasn't based purely on complaining. Surely you don't think it was all due to whining? This isn't always the best advice. As a Zerg player, one of the hardest things to beat is a good turtler who turtles to 200/200 then comes out with a death ball that I cannot defeat with my 200/200 army. Zerg has to have massively superior army to beat a protoss or terran in a turtle position. And fact of the matter is that I can't saturate more than 3 bases otherwise my drones start cutting into my supply, so at some point, letting me take the entire map doesn't do me much good if I cannot make any more drones anyway. Can't you just use the mobility of your army? Go in with Mutas and harass the base and make them come back, don't let them expand. Keep upgrading until ultras. If you directly engage, you will, of course, lose.
You could abuse the mobility of Zerg's forces, however, they don't always come back to defend. Especially if they're already almost at the front of your base, it's better for them to just push in and see if they can win it rather than turn back to defend and falling behind.
Plus, having a few turrets and a thor or two around a Terran base makes muta harass in small numbers impossible. Protoss had a harder time with muta harass but the phoenix buff will definitely help. There isn't any other very mobile Zerg unit except Zerglings which can't do anything if the opponent has a wall off, or maybe Nydus Worms which is easily defeated by scouting.
Zerg units are very weak, even being 40 supply ahead, a Zerg player has to flank, surround, or ambush to effectively utilize that supply lead while other race unit compositions are strong enough to push simply forward with making it again somewhat dependent on the maps as well.
Going back on topic though, the reverting of these changes don't buff Zerg at all from the current state. FG didn't seem like a major issue so that nerf surprised a lot of people. The hotkey hold-down was completely uncalled for and really didn't seem like it had any valid reasoning behind it. (Or why it was called a bug in the first place, you'd think they would have noticed something like this from the get-go). If anything, the patch buffs PvZ and PvT still. The patch seems like it tips TvZ towards Z a bit more, making worker harass easier and repair+thor and repair+PF much simpler to deal with.
|
No wonder they are changing back the hold-key-mechanism, there probably were millions of bronze-level-posts saying it is too hard to actually press some key repeatedly - fucking bullshit, Blizz attempts to make the game "a bit" more skill-demanding and cowardly reverts it shortly after.
Other changes are good though, except, well Protoss won't be able to win any game that goes into lategame vs Zerg on bigger maps and includes hive-tech-units, if both have similar skill - no speed-rays vs mass-mutas AND fungal vs phoenix AND broodlords to kill everything else....will not work, there isn't even a counter in "theory".
|
On December 07 2010 17:28 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 16:59 Highways wrote:
I liked the no repeat hotkey for Zerg.
Sad to see so many noobs complaining because they can't handle the mechanics. I don't even put my all my hatcheries on hotkey and hold down a button. I actually individually hotkey every hatch I have.
Sad to see TL trying to dumb down the mechanics. So pissed off right now. I don't care other races are easier to macro, Zerg is a race that requires high APM so deal with it. This is absurd. There is no "skill" in being able to push the same button 40 times really fast. It is merely a tedious and unnecessary addition that adds nothing and detracts plenty since no longer will you have lings all popping at once but rather streaming out a few at a time, which is huge. Also, the change would have affected zerg much much more than the other races which again is absurd given the fact zerg already takes much more "clicking" and apm to macro as zerg. It wasn't anything like the proposed change in BW and there is no reason it should be like that in SC2.
100% agree with this post, spamming the same buttom to produce is not skill, it's just tedious and unnececary
|
haha zerg QQ overwhelming
|
I think its funny how nobody complained about holding keys until Blizzard decided to remove it, then add it back. Now its OP apparently.
|
This is a good thing. I couldn't really see the logic in removing fungal growths air part. Anyway, as protoss I have to agree with what some Zerg said: just spreading the air units out will solve a lot. I mean, terrans already do it versus banelings, right?
Overall this patch starts to look excellent.
|
On December 07 2010 17:36 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
I think its funny how nobody complained about holding keys until Blizzard decided to remove it, then add it back. Now its OP apparently.
someone give this guy a medal for saying what we should all be thinking
|
So much for their "balancing tools." Let's just throw all that out the window and listen to the peanut gallery. Wut?
|
On December 07 2010 15:21 -orb- wrote:
Huh.
I actually liked the not-being-able-to-hold-down-keys thing. Anything that makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo
Needless spamming = skill? I'm shocked at the number of posts like these in this thread.
|
This is interesting what if blizzard purposly puts some insane changes into the PTR just so they can remove them so its looks like their taking our feedback.
Ps. Obviously there not doing that and im now really happy with this patch everything is really good. I did like the bunker build time thought as Terran got to be biased.
|
On December 07 2010 17:06 Highways wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:04 papaz wrote:
quite dissapointing of blizzard, specially with the "hold down key".
Exactly. You see superstars like Jaedong playing at 350apm, and now you see 'so called' high level SC2 players complaining that: "I cant leave all my hatches on one hotkey and hold down ONE button to macro anymore".SC2 players already have it very very easy mechanically ffs.
totally different. im all for making the game harder/increasing the skill cap. but it should be done by cool/good things (stuff like muta micro, units like the reaver,maybe even removingsmartcast ) and not by forcing someone to spam the same key 30 times.
hitting your baneling morph key 30 times isnt skillful or anything. its annoying and stupid.
and in BW things worked different anyways since producing or morphing units required ONE keypress and all larva/units selected started morphing.
its not a huge issue and actually i didnt even use it till like a month ago . still i disagree with your post since things are totally different.
|
On December 07 2010 17:36 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
I think its funny how nobody complained about holding keys until Blizzard decided to remove it, then add it back. Now its OP apparently.
I didn't even KNOW that this was possible previously, if so I would have made one hell of QQ-thread here.
What the fuck, I as protoss get constantly told "blah, blah, one base easy, no macro needed etc." and have to find out that actually I have BY FAR the hardest mechansim to produce units? Because not only do I have to leave the battlefield, no, I have to select the unit-type I want to build (after selecting warpgates) THEN hold shift and THEN I have to CLICK multiple-times to warp them in.
All while the opponent zerg stares at the battlefield the whole time, selects 5-7 (whatever they have their hatches on) and hold down "r" - another 20 roaches incoming; now this wasn't too hard wasn't it?
Now I want to be able to warp in multiple units by just holding down my left mouse-button, thanks blizz plz fix soon.
EDIT: at poster above me: I'm fine with multiple baneling-morph because this could be thought of being one "action" to be performed for every member of the group. Same with, well, multiple archon-warps if I'd ever come into such situation.
|
On December 07 2010 17:30 sleepingdog wrote:
No wonder they are changing back the hold-key-mechanism, there probably were millions of bronze-level-posts saying it is too hard to actually press some key repeatedly - fucking bullshit, Blizz attempts to make the game "a bit" more skill-demanding and cowardly reverts it shortly after.
Other changes are good though, except, well Protoss won't be able to win any game that goes into lategame vs Zerg on bigger maps and includes hive-tech-units, if both have similar skill - no speed-rays vs mass-mutas AND fungal vs phoenix AND broodlords to kill everything else....will not work, there isn't even a counter in "theory".
It wouldn't make the game "a bit" more skill-demanding, it would just make it tedious and boring. You didn't even have to press 1 hotkey per unit back in BW. It makes no sense why you should in SC2 with the queen+larva injects which is already the more tedious of the 3 race macro mechanics.
Having mass mutas with infestors and broodlords is extremely gas heavy and is unlikely composition if that's what your stating. The protoss would have to be a total dimwit to allow Zerg to obtain that many bases and geysers. Especially with the phoenix buff, spire builds can be shut down earlier. I think more-or-less Zerg players will have a difficult time with stargate builds after the patch comes out for a while.
|
See blizzard is smart, they scare the crud out of zerg with nerfs....then when they give the nerfs back and don't buff the zerg units at all, they hope zerg won't notice  .
I'd doubt very much that's the case, but wouldn't it be funny if it was? along with absolutely briliant.
|
Blizzard, pls leave infestors alone. Enough experimenting, every other patch spell added, spell removed, hp reduced... They are the last one you wanna look at when balancing the game.
|
I am so happy with these changes =D the hotkey one almost made me leave zerg for good =(
|
Wow it's good blizz is actually listening! I guess there was nothing to be worried about... heheh -_-'
|
I bet someone gave Check.Prime a PTR account and after trying it. Check just email DavidKim tell him to revert these changes :D
Joking aside, Its glad that Blizzard is listening, but why would they make some shit changes like this in the first place, even on PTR the bunker reduce time is unacceptable.
|
On December 07 2010 17:30 sleepingdog wrote:
No wonder they are changing back the hold-key-mechanism, there probably were millions of bronze-level-posts saying it is too hard to actually press some key repeatedly - fucking bullshit, Blizz attempts to make the game "a bit" more skill-demanding and cowardly reverts it shortly after.
Other changes are good though, except, well Protoss won't be able to win any game that goes into lategame vs Zerg on bigger maps and includes hive-tech-units, if both have similar skill - no speed-rays vs mass-mutas AND fungal vs phoenix AND broodlords to kill everything else....will not work, there isn't even a counter in "theory".
If we are talking theory, Mothership (vortex) and Archons will clean that army up. In practice however, I think the real danger in the pvz matchup for Protoss is the switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks.
|
What this tell us is that all players should just shut the hell up about balance when it's on the PTR. Unless it's live then u can start complaining.
If all the Zerg QQ was the reason Blizzard reverted the change then I say put it back on. I don't mind if FG nerf was reverted but not if it were for the reason because so many Zerg players demanded it. There should be testing around this to happen rather than player complaints.
Now if FG never had the nerf in the first place how many pages of QQ would we have in the ptr thread then?
If there is 1 thing that any race does not like then we can expect several threads of whining in it. Although you do not see much QQ of Protoss for some reason.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
