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After listening to Idra, iNcontrol, Artosis, and JP discuss on the "State of the Game" stream tonight about whether or not there should be a strategy forum where only progamers (and players with a qualified knowledge about the game, or whatever TL administration would decide) can talk about strategy without having to wade through the thousands of posts from low level players, I felt obliged to create this poll:
Poll: I Would Approve of an Exclusive SC2 Strategy Forum for Pros OnlyABSOLUTELY! I Agree Completely. (586) 80% Yes, I Can See This as Being Beneficial. (80) 11% NO! This is Disgusting and Against all TL Stands For. (49) 7% No, This is Unfair and Injust. (15) 2% 730 total votes Your vote: I Would Approve of an Exclusive SC2 Strategy Forum for Pros Only (Vote): ABSOLUTELY! I Agree Completely.
(Vote): Yes, I Can See This as Being Beneficial.
(Vote): No, This is Unfair and Injust.
(Vote): NO! This is Disgusting and Against all TL Stands For.
Edit: The condition being that everyone would be able to view the forum!
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Sure, as long as other people can read it.
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i doubt pros would really post on it. i know i'd prefer sharing info with teammates and friends/practice partners as opposed to the people i'll probably play in tournaments
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All for it as long as any TL members can lurk.
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On December 06 2010 16:04 AJ- wrote:
i doubt pros would really post on it. i know i'd prefer sharing info with teammates and friends/practice partners as opposed to the people i'll probably play in tournaments
I can see that as being possible but I think a lot of progamers have made their opinions clear, that they would not be interesting in posting in the current strategy forum simply because too many inexperienced players disrespect them and their hours upon hours of experience. Since this appears to be the only possibility of hearing what they might want to share, I think it'd be worth trying. Just curious what some other casual TLer's think.
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as long as the community can view the forum then yes, absolutely
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This is a really good idea that would actually improve the TL community exp for 2k+ diamond players like me and others who dont like seeing gold players discussing balance (Avilo...hmmm)
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United States4053 Posts
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yeah i think its worth trying. it is pretty uncommon to have an exclusive forum section for top gamers but I think TL could set a precedent.
I mean it has got to be better than how it is now right? Finding a pro thread in the sea of idiots is very difficult. like finding a tear drop in an ocean.
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And yet every month another thread pops up. And this time it isn't even in the website feedback section. 
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
We've been talking about this since before Beta even started. We have a number of solutions - they are in the pipeline.
I'll leave this one open since its relevant to SOTG podcast etc.
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The key to this is at what level you define "pro". I think it would have to be set very high to avoid it becoming too much like Arena Junkies.
Also I doubt many pros would want to discuss and reveal their strategies. I think it might be more interesting to have it centered around game balance and that type of stuff instead.
The thread linked above is 5 months old and didn't have a poll- I think this ones a bit more useful and this was just brought up again tonight in State of the Game.
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@Kennigit
Okay, thanks. From what I've heard it just seems like anyone who has a valuable opinion on the matter thinks that 50% of TL forum viewers would oppose such an unequal forum out of general principle. The point was I think it'd be at least 9:1 that people are absolutely in favor. Feel free to close the thread if there are many others already in existence (or it is no longer needed). Also, I apologize for throwing the thread in General (just thought it'd be more public this way).
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If you have too few people allowed to post, I don't see the forum staying alive for very long. If enough people are allowed to post it could work out, but only pros is something I don't see working.
Will be interesting to see how TL.net solves this....
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I think this is a good idea as in the current system it's sometimes hard to know if something is good information or complete crap, the downside is it that looks pretty unfair to exclude people and people new to TL could be turned away because of it.
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I always have wondered, and this has probably be debated to a certain extent, but what if TL implemented a system where people can get reputation points based on posts. If you post something good and people agree, then they can give you a +1 and it overall builds up as you make more good posts and I guess it can serve as a measurement of if your posts are up to snuff or not.
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I only read the Strategy forum when I had just gotten the Beta and was clueless and had everything to learn. I'm a low diamond player now though and feel no need to visit it because it's not limited to people guaranteed to know more than me. Until I know I'm going to get opinions from skilled players who aren't going to rant about balance in every thread, I will continue to have it minimized.
Basically the way I see it is, limit it to the top 1% of players and the remaining 99% of players will be able to benefit from reading it. Not limiting at all gives very little benefit to anyone who isn't a newbie.
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Yes, as long as we can all read it.
And don't make it "exclusive" too much- implementation of the Master's League will help, but an application for players who aren't huge on the scene but are still good enough to comment and post now and then would be good. Exclusive too much will make it so that we're cutting out some new innovations. Look at GuineaPig - not nearly as big as Idra or Tester, but he showed off some amazing PvZ.
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Cool idea. But Pros wont have the time of day to post and theorycraft, they're too busy actually playing the game.
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I'd say go! But make it only possible to post for veteran/pro players while nubies (like me) can still read it and improve our game. Also give it a seperate section on the forum, like a 'pro strategy section'
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i'm still torn about this.
Especially because i think Pros have vested interests in the sense that if they discover some sick imba strategy, why would they share it to their potential opponents. If i were them, i'll just use the opportunity to abuse that strategy and win some tournaments before the strategy catches fire and get nerfed.
Sure we can have some discussion going on but pros have very little incentive to make those public. They probably already discuss such stuff among their teams anyway. Just like how the Liquid guys supposedly devised anti-idra strats, they won't reveal it on the Strategy forum beforehand.
Also, things like sockfolding and f1 worker spreading trick came from people who were arguably not "pro" unless i'm horribly mistaken. A pro only forum might stunt the development of such new strategies by so called "commoners"
That said, the Strategy forum is quite awful nowadays and some quality control is in order. How, i'm not so sure.
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United States22883 Posts
On December 06 2010 16:27 potatomash3r wrote:
Cool idea. But Pros wont have the time of day to post and theorycraft, they're too busy actually playing the game.
Nor do they want to share strategies publicly.
I know people like IdrA/Nony/Inc have the same addiction to TL like most of us do, but they're also kind of rare among the top players. If you stick the top 200 NA players in their own forum, how much discussion do you think will really take place?
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Well, I think some discussion would be preferable to none at all - and there is the possibility of the discussion growing among higher level players if the forum is successful.
On another note, I don't think it says anywhere that players must only discuss their own strategies. Personally, I'd love to see high level discussion of GSL games and other games from the pros themselves on TL without low diamonds and below trying to showcase their understanding of the game (or lack thereof).
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A repost of mine from the thread in SC2 General.
Just a note about pro players posting ANYWHERE about ANYTHING Starcraft 2 related.
These guys are out there playing SC2 for money. While we have excellent players like Day[9] educating the masses, pros who play for money are actually negatively impacted by posting on a strategy forum. The better the collective whole of players get, the harder it is for the pros to beat their competition. So I doubt we will be having TLO or IdrA come on down and give us some zerg 101 lessons. That is why we have Day[9]. Sen, Psy, etc.
I think that instead of a X points on ladder sort of deal, we should have a subforum where players who did well in say...64+ person tournaments can post. Maybe if they got to RO4 or higher. Is it perfect? No. But it does make it a little easier to handle since we have that nice SC2 Tourneys subforum and a quick PM to any of the regular tournament organizers would be pretty simple.
Since in general money is on the line for tournaments, people are generally motivated to win and they cannot consistently cheese their way through a tournament due to their opponents actually being decent players.
My 2 cents.
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Give mods rights to invite and see whether it's active or not among the top players discussion.
Start from Grand master league and see who'll be active in the forums. Best way to start this thing is to make it simple as possible in my opinion. Just to get things started to move it to a better way in the future. Sometimes instead of thinking you just got to do it.
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I understand the reasons why a pro wouldn't want to share the strategies they're about to use in tournament play with the rest of the internet - but who says they can't talk about the strategies of their peers or perhaps strategies that they've already used and are well known?
What I don't understand is why people do so much theorizing on whether or not pros would be game to this... why not just try and see how it turns out? Stop me if I'm wrong, but I believe I've heard qxc (not in the most recent State of the Game), Idra, Artosis, and iNcontrol all talk about the topic as if they try to contribute to the strategy forum and wish their views had more recognition and that they received more worthwhile criticism.
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Maybe these threads could simply have an option to hide posts from everyone that hasn't been added to a whitelist? You could click "show all" if you really wanted so see those posts, and other users wouldn't necessarily be prohibited.
I'm thinking.. "January Pro-Gamer Strategy Discussion"
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MURICA15980 Posts
The problem is more along the lines of who do you invite and will those people who are invited even post at all to make it a sustainable forum. The answers to these questions are connected as the more people you invite, the more active it'll be. But then again, the more people you invite, the more you lose the point of the entire forum. Where do you draw the line for it to be a useful feature?
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sorry but I can't seem to figure out how people listen to this live, can someone please enlighten me?
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I don't think pros care enough to make these sort of threads. If they do, it'd only be for our benefit.
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United States22883 Posts
On December 06 2010 17:39 Dayvan wrote:
Stop me if I'm wrong, but I believe I've heard qxc (not in the most recent State of the Game), Idra, Artosis, and iNcontrol all talk about the topic as if they try to contribute to the strategy forum and wish their views had more recognition and that they received more worthwhile criticism.
You're wrong. 
When qxc/IdrA/Artosis/etc. post, people notice. The people that don't get noticed are the lower level of top players, who do post but then get shit on by a plethora of terrible posters. It's hard for anyone to find the good posts, because they're so hugely outnumbered. Excluding them from everyone else partially solves it, but it doesn't ensure content and it lowers the bar for the rest of the forums. Also, I'm not sure that all of the top players are capable of quality OP/discussion either, although I love a WCG USA thread as much as anyone. Ultimately, we're trying to avoid the glass wall that a forum like ArenaJunkies has created, but like Inc said, there are other possible solutions.
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This goes completely against anything TL members stand for.
Everybody should be able to chime in and give their opinion. Stupid opinions will be refuted and even low level players (degrading term as it mostly used here..) can give some insightfull information.
Segregation is just plain bad. I can already image the whine from players who aren't deemed worthy enough..
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As a longterm member of a Arena Junkies, its been proven for several years that the system over there does not work. Ask even the most coveted gladiator over there and they will tell you its absolute garbage, they throw **** at each other on a daily basis. High rated player or even pro does not mean a good post
A system that does work is the Elitist Jerks, which has no requirements other than your post has to be quality. This would require the mods in TL.net to work overtime tough, which may not be possible.
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Honestly, if we can all ready it, it wouldn't be bad. Posting would be different, and reserved for lets say, Diamond players with a rank of X or above. I think it'd be an interesting idea to say the least.
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After reading this along with the responses on this are people more leaning towards pro's only, or are they leaning towards higher level diamond players, or what kind of range?
I'm curious if there's any way to somehow associate battle.net profiles to TL accounts, I know that's probably something that would need quite a bit of working out by the TL staff, something like sending an authentication e-mail to their battle.net e-mail in order to make sure people don't just list random chars, but again something like this would be more if it was something that would be like higher level diamond players instead of just pros....
Just some of the question I had about the matter, but none the less it would be cool either way.
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On December 06 2010 17:50 zerotol wrote:
This goes completely against anything TL members stand for.
Everybody should be able to chime in and give their opinion. Stupid opinions will be refuted and even low level players (degrading term as it mostly used here..) can give some insightfull information.
Segregation is just plain bad. I can already image the whine from players who aren't deemed worthy enough..
While "bad" players can of course come up with interesting ideas and contribute, it would be great to have a forum where the Pros can discuss in depth without a newb dashing in and saying something like "123123123123123MMMimba!".
It would result in high quality posts where you would have to take your time to read through but can take alot of correct and quality information.
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a new section for progames would be nice _IF_ others can read it too.
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last time this was discussed i was against it, caus i don't like how seperating TL members ect
but now i changed my mind, fuck it, strategy forum are a complete mess, so im for this idea
HOWEVER, make it so it's only pro's(as in the exclusive members) no random TL veteran/users we never seen do good in tournaments ect. If it's gonna be like that atleast make it so it's the good players, not all the "wanna-be good" TL posters
Edit: haven't heard SOTG yet so i had to skipped most of the OP in case there was certain spoilers
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It is a great idea in theory but extremely tricky in practice. I think the key to making this fair is to have specific qualifications. For example a top 16 finish at an MLG event or something like that. I would avoid using ladder since that isn't really the best gauge. Although I think this can be done, it might cause more problems than it solves. It could still be worth a beta test though.
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As much as I want to see a better strategy forum, this idea won't work well.
How many top people actually posting about strategy? Sure people like nony/idra/incontrol post on tl often, but if you compare that to the pool of 'pro' players, the majority is rarely ever post.
And this is against the very foundation of TL where everybody give contribution.
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After reading some of the things people have said here, I think the real issue at hand comes back to whether or not the "exclusive members" would actually be interested in having a forum dedicated to their discussion. The votes make it appear obvious that the community would be behind (at least) a trial of such a forum.
Though high-level players have been complaining about disrespect/stupid feedback, they need to talk more about what their ideal forum environment would be. The point of this thread is that the community is behind whatever they might come up with. From what I've heard, it sounds like they wish they could have interesting discussions with the community but at the same time they wish that the community was as smart in their responses as they are. If that's the case, then this topic is far more complicated than I thought initially.
Side Note: thank you to whoever moved this thread from General to SC2 General
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absolutely, if I would get in >_<
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 06 2010 16:39 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 16:27 potatomash3r wrote:
Cool idea. But Pros wont have the time of day to post and theorycraft, they're too busy actually playing the game. Nor do they want to share strategies publicly. I know people like IdrA/Nony/Inc have the same addiction to TL like most of us do, but they're also kind of rare among the top players. If you stick the top 200 NA players in their own forum, how much discussion do you think will really take place? 97% Avilo whining about Terran being under powered
2.5% Incontrol trolling people
0.5% Actual discussion
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This would never work, ever. The "pros" would never post there and then you'd just be left with an empty forum that nobody can post in.
The solution would be to allow access to like 2500+ on ladder, but that doesnt make the discussions any better, 2500+ people can be total idiots, anyone can. I would hate to see something like this happen, it's been done on other sites before, and it's been no less than major suckage. Take Arena Junkies for example, the quality of discussion there is similar to the bnet forums, no joke. Very bad idea.
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Why do people always make polls with such ridiculous options? Just put simple "yes, no, i don't care" options and stop trying to tie other emotions into it; this causes biased polling.
Give me a "no" that doesn't have something that doesn't even remotely apply to me and I'll pick that.
A "pro" forum would just turn into day9 2.0 where everyone runs around thinking XYZ must be true because someone on that section said it, just like people constantly run around saying "day9 said ___" and treating it as gospel.
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On December 07 2010 02:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 16:39 Jibba wrote:On December 06 2010 16:27 potatomash3r wrote:
Cool idea. But Pros wont have the time of day to post and theorycraft, they're too busy actually playing the game. Nor do they want to share strategies publicly. I know people like IdrA/Nony/Inc have the same addiction to TL like most of us do, but they're also kind of rare among the top players. If you stick the top 200 NA players in their own forum, how much discussion do you think will really take place? 97% Avilo whining about Terran being under powered 2.5% Incontrol trolling people 0.5% Actual discussion
I think this is an accurate overview of how it'll look.
I dont think any solution is really good, but just highlighting posts that are made by top players, sort of like blue posts on the blizzard forums would be better than what we have now.
So that when top players DO actually post, it doesn't get drowned in hundreds of trash posts for nobody to read.
But Im not sure how to do it, practically .. I mean Idra could just be trolling a thread and it gets flagged as "pro input", so it'd have to be a manual process where mods add the flags to the posts that actually have good content.
Its going to be hell :C
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On December 07 2010 02:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 16:39 Jibba wrote:On December 06 2010 16:27 potatomash3r wrote:
Cool idea. But Pros wont have the time of day to post and theorycraft, they're too busy actually playing the game. Nor do they want to share strategies publicly. I know people like IdrA/Nony/Inc have the same addiction to TL like most of us do, but they're also kind of rare among the top players. If you stick the top 200 NA players in their own forum, how much discussion do you think will really take place? 97% Avilo whining about Terran being under powered 2.5% Incontrol trolling people 0.5% Actual discussion
hahahaha
This has been discussed and the mods seemed pretty comfortable in the decision that the extra elitism is not necessary and won't even provoke thought-changing discussion. Many of the best players don't spend time discussing strategy in forums anyway, so it wouldn't even be properly used.
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On December 06 2010 18:27 Shana wrote:
As much as I want to see a better strategy forum, this idea won't work well.
How many top people actually posting about strategy? Sure people like nony/idra/incontrol post on tl often, but if you compare that to the pool of 'pro' players, the majority is rarely ever post.
And this is against the very foundation of TL where everybody give contribution.
The reason they don't post is that the sc2 strategy forum is complete trash? That would be the whole point, to give good players incentive to use TL for strategy discussions again..
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i like the idea for the general skilled player. however, you guys are completely naive to think pro players will be posting for strategy discussion. a pro may pop in every now and then to offer advice but they will not be discussing builds/strats etc on an open forum where there competition (other pros) can read it.
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97% Avilo whining about Terran being under powered
Seems low.
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Having a pros only forum wouldnt work because they wouldnt want to share secrets. The more reasonable thing to do would be to have a forum where only people in the new Master league could post in it, but then how do you actually prove you are in master league.
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My view has always been that I'm probably as qualified as anyone else to make comments, videos, and critique. I'm probably as qualified to provide content as anyone else. The pros alone do not make up the entire SC2 community by any means.
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I also don't like the idea of segregating the forums, for the reasons discussed above. However if lesser known top players are getting drowned out in the forums, I'd support unique avatars or some other form of recognition for those players, if the moderators were willing to manage it.
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I have been involved with managment of a forum with about 400 000+ members, and still gowing, and this is not a uncommon problem regarding any kind of forum. Have had this kind of discussions and in the end you can not create a perfect system.
For strategy I think the best way to deal with this should be a access system to different subforums based on actual ladder ranking.
To write in the strategy forums you must connect your account to a bnet account. The subforums could be divided in bronze, silver, diamond, plat, master. Only people with the right access can write in the forums.
This way the reader can make a quick judgment of the poster and the tl staff will not forced to manage some internal tl ranking system. With growth that feels like a good way to go.
Edit: Would have voted on "No, I dont think it is a working system".
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I don't think a pro strategy section would be used at all. Pros generally don't want to share their ideas with anyone besides their teammates. I think the strategy section has it's uses but if you want to know what the pros are doing just watch their games and take notes as that's probably what all the other pros do as well.
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This has been brought up a ton - there is a search function in the top right.
As I have stated before - I support this idea, but there is a fine line between exclusive where almost no one posts and its a dead forum and where there are again too many people.
Too much either way and it will fail.
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I'd be favorable to this measure. Each time I go to the strategy section for info, I'm pretty disappointed to find so much contradicting stuff and I can't make a decision on what to try. I'd like the strategy section to be a place where I can go and find valuable information that I know was thought by someone who knows what he's talking about for sure.
One thing that could be incorporated though could be a way for people to submit questions that would only be answered by pros. If they could provide information to even bronze/silver/gold/platinum players, at least they would feel like they could rely on that info because they might know the person and their reputation as top players.
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Why pros would share strategies is beyond me.
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Here is something I sent to rich a few weeks ago about such a thing: (didnt garner a responce, oh well)
I was thinking about this yesterday. A lot of great articles in the sc2 strategy section get drowned by people asking for help, or just general rants and other things posted on there.
I think it would be really awesome, to perhaps have some sort of "Premium Article" status, which mods would place on really good topic of discussion. A star right before a topic title would be an indicator of a great topic.
Also, I think it would be cool to have a setting some where, perhaps a check box, where it would filter that forum by premium. So you would only see articles that have been deemed awesome by a mod. these would sort by last post date, like usual. But it would be a way to "clean" out the forum, and bring the top players back to the section.
Of course only the highest quality topics and posts would make this cut. One of them being Plexa's PvZ overview. I would however refrain from giving a general build thread "premium", as this would crowd the section.
I have also seen a few "quality poster" stars next to peoples names. Notice, i say, "a few". Perhaps there should be some sort of time limit that you must wait (like 2 weeks perhaps) until an article/discussion/topic goes premium. Then, from there are, any one can see the post, but only the "quality poster" and above and post something. This would of course mean giving out more stars, but i have only seen a few of these.
I don't know what they give a user, but this could be a cool plus to make people want to post higher quality content. Of course you could limit the amount of people that are considered for this status by taking the total TL population of people that visit per month, and take a percentage of that and only allow, say, x% to obtain this status. Keeping track of these people to make sure they are posting "quality", and at the end of each month, the list is "trimmed" and slots are opened. This is, if user population becomes a problem. You don't want people just getting in and then not posting, as a quality poster.
Also, perhaps they (quality poster) and above can use the filter function.
I would think that we don't necessarily need a "pros only" discussion, But something to separate the average posts with the amazing posts.
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I'm not sure if this is splitting hairs too finely, it seems like there are generally two types of posts in the strategy section, and I think they can be treated differently. In my ideal world I'd like to see:
- a general strategy forum which anyone can post to (similar to what exists now) mostly for strategy discussion, or asking for help from the general public, or to discuss a broad issue
- a specific strategy help forum in which anyone can post, used to ask specific questions on some aspect of strategy, with a replay, from which only "qualified" members can respond to.
Of course, I don't know what you need to have to be qualified. Honestly, I think if you are diamond it's probably good enough.... you may still be a bad player, but at least you are a bad player who is good enough to get to diamond, and even a bad diamond player can probably help a lower league player with some tips, and probably knows enough to respect the opinion of a top-diamond player.
This wouldn't be a 100% solution, but it perhaps could lessen some of the most egregious problems.
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Pros won't share secrets or how tos on how to be uber. There is simply no incentive for them.
However, there is a huge disparity between pro and high level diamond, as well as silver and high diamond. I don't think a pro forum would work, but separating the casual player who likes to make incorrect asumptions based on his lack of experience from a high diamond player who has over 1k games played at a competitive level would be a huge step in a positive direction.
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Just have a forum where only "top players" can post but that everyone can read.
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ABSOLUTLEY.
Perhaps the discussion shouldnt only be freely, but also centerd around a new subject every week like.
"How to defend against 4gate?" /Discuss u godly players 
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While I think it would be so great if Pro Players would post in the strategy section most of them will not. It will be tidbits of advice here and there. So maybe those that are high diamond but don't care about there strategies being known would be great. At the same time I think we will lose many Great Strategies in the process if there are 2 seperate strategy sections anything not in the VIP section would get disregarded and we would have missed out on Gems like KCDC 1 Gate FE. That thread for example has about 20 pages discrediting the strategy saying it won't work now we all know thats not the case but at the same time it wasn't posted by a "Pro" player. Sometimes that is enough for people to shoot down strategies no matter how much work you put into your post.
Right now I think the spotlight is a great idea though it did take a while for the 1 gate fe to get spotlighted because it takes a while to make sure a build is really solid.
If what you suggest is implemented I think it would be great.
Edit:
Not sure if I wanted to mention it but it is true that some players put their strategies elsewhere and receive some income or put them into profitable guides. That is another thing that would effect of the amount of posts in a VIP only strategy section from Pro players. Again, I agree with the idea but I think implementation and success would be hard to achieve.
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On December 07 2010 02:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 16:39 Jibba wrote:On December 06 2010 16:27 potatomash3r wrote:
Cool idea. But Pros wont have the time of day to post and theorycraft, they're too busy actually playing the game. Nor do they want to share strategies publicly. I know people like IdrA/Nony/Inc have the same addiction to TL like most of us do, but they're also kind of rare among the top players. If you stick the top 200 NA players in their own forum, how much discussion do you think will really take place? 97% Avilo whining about Terran being under powered 2.5% Incontrol trolling people 0.5% Actual discussion
It might be true, but I really think it is worth trying, I mean, if it suck you can just shut it down.
And also, you might try inviting regular people that are just pretty high at the ladder (like top 500, or something like that) those might post more regularly
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On December 07 2010 07:38 ch4ppi wrote:ABSOLUTLEY. Perhaps the discussion shouldnt only be freely, but also centerd around a new subject every week like. "How to defend against 4gate?" /Discuss u godly players
This would be cool. The community could vote for a new subject each week so everyone is involved that way.
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On December 07 2010 07:45 debasers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 02:50 Plexa wrote:On December 06 2010 16:39 Jibba wrote:On December 06 2010 16:27 potatomash3r wrote:
Cool idea. But Pros wont have the time of day to post and theorycraft, they're too busy actually playing the game. Nor do they want to share strategies publicly. I know people like IdrA/Nony/Inc have the same addiction to TL like most of us do, but they're also kind of rare among the top players. If you stick the top 200 NA players in their own forum, how much discussion do you think will really take place? 97% Avilo whining about Terran being under powered 2.5% Incontrol trolling people 0.5% Actual discussion It might be true, but I really think it is worth trying, I mean, if it suck you can just shut it down. And also, you might try inviting regular people that are just pretty high at the ladder (like top 500, or something like that) those might post more regularly
I think Top 200 would bring great discussion. I think Minigun would contribute. KCDC was in top 200 not sure if he is now. Trump is/was top 200, Ryan Rushia is/was top 200. Many of these people have given great community feedback with blogs strategy threads, and insight to there playstyles. Many top 200 just play ladder and try new builds but aren't necessarily in tournaments.
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On December 07 2010 02:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 16:39 Jibba wrote:On December 06 2010 16:27 potatomash3r wrote:
Cool idea. But Pros wont have the time of day to post and theorycraft, they're too busy actually playing the game. Nor do they want to share strategies publicly. I know people like IdrA/Nony/Inc have the same addiction to TL like most of us do, but they're also kind of rare among the top players. If you stick the top 200 NA players in their own forum, how much discussion do you think will really take place? 97% Avilo whining about Terran being under powered 2.5% Incontrol trolling people 0.5% Actual discussion
lol, although the percentages are only slightly off, I think we can all agree.
However, we'll never know without giving it a shot. I don't think posting privileges in the forum should be limited to less than the top 200.
If you've been in the top 200 within 3-6 months, you can post. Posting privileges decay after that time period.
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On December 07 2010 08:02 Blackhawk13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:38 ch4ppi wrote:ABSOLUTLEY. Perhaps the discussion shouldnt only be freely, but also centerd around a new subject every week like. "How to defend against 4gate?" /Discuss u godly players This would be cool. The community could vote for a new subject each week so everyone is involved that way.
I think this would be interesting as well. However, I think I would be more interested in seeing a forum exactly like the one that currently exists except with all (or mostly, at least) points of the discussion being useful or insightful, which I know is wishful thinking.. I'd rather have them "do their own thing," so to speak, in their own dedicated place - talking more about their own interests among each other as opposed to the community's interest. I say leave the community involvement to systems like the Day[9] Daily.
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Although it would be "something cool"
but how would you know WHO gets in?
how would you know when to KICK someone?
how would you know WHERE to put it?
how would you know how to ENCOURAGE players to post?
soooo many questions left unanswered...
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I feel pretty conflicted about this. In one hand this would only bring segregation and maybe even more elitism to TL. On the other hand it is sad to see people respond to a much better player than them with some oneliner crap response.
Also we would have the issue of getting pros to actually post there. I'd say things are Ok as they are and one change that was mentioned seems like a good solution. If a thread makes up a lot of good discussion it should be featured or something like that.
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What do you guys think about the star commenter system on sites such as gizmodo? For instance, can we have the option to only show comments made by those commentators who regularly contribute good discussions and ideas?
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It would be so worthwhile to have a separate forum for the 'pros' to discuss things on. Just look at sotg, people eat that stuff up, me included. Once a week though is hardly enough for most people to get their fix on what some top players think about certain strategies/patches etc. I don't care in the slightest about not being able to post in a forum like that, and 91% of the people who've voted so far don't care either. please please make this happen!
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I wouldn't mind seeing a forum where top gamers could contribute more freely.
However, I think that concerns about elitism seem legitimate. Someone doesn't have to be a top player to come up with a good idea, and I think that a separate forum would make it even easier to dismiss those ideas. For all that SotG rags on TL strategy forums, I seem to recall Idra commenting at IEM that he read about magic box Mutas on the boards. With a pro forum, I think that a lot of tricks like that would be mostly dismissed unless the player could win a tournament with them - and coming up with one good trick or theory with potential but little refinement is a lot different than being a top player.
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I think this forum would be good in that many of the better players would actually bother to post in threads knowing that they can't get trolled by silver noobies.
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On December 07 2010 11:03 Victim wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing a forum where top gamers could contribute more freely.
However, I think that concerns about elitism seem legitimate. Someone doesn't have to be a top player to come up with a good idea, and I think that a separate forum would make it even easier to dismiss those ideas. For all that SotG rags on TL strategy forums, I seem to recall Idra commenting at IEM that he read about magic box Mutas on the boards. With a pro forum, I think that a lot of tricks like that would be mostly dismissed unless the player could win a tournament with them - and coming up with one good trick or theory with potential but little refinement is a lot different than being a top player.
I don't see something like this as being about strategy (though I disagree as well that lower-level players' opinions are worth as much in that respect either) as much as seeing what the top players think about big events such as the PTR and the reaction to the GSL quarters and stuff like that. I think that it would take a lot of the trolling out of the LR threads, but maybe I'm just being a dreamer 
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I was a little disconcerted when they discussed this on SOTG. They had mention one idea was around posts counts. As a several year lurker, a recent sign up, and only occasional poster, why should my opinion be invalidated because I don't spam a response on every thread. If a post count requirement was created you will run into even more spam so individuals could meet this requirement.
I know this has been mentioned in the past but balance discussions derail more threads than anything else on here. With the PTR, and 2 more expansions on the way, these balance discussions are not going away.Simply create a balance sub-forum. Any discussion of race or unit balance should be done here only. All other forums should take the mentality of the game is 100% balanced. And any attempts to derail with balance discussion should be addressed/redirected via a mod. This would allow one specific area for balance discussion and leave everywhere else to productive and healthy discussion.
The strategy section should be an area for strategic advice. It's all about trying things out and finding what works for you. It should not be a golden singular answer. Where the strategy section and even several threads in sc2 general has turned into a joke is from the imba imba responses. I love TL and want to see it remain the top non-Korean SC resource.
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Pros aren't going to want to give away their strategies willy-nilly, as TLO said.
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seems reasonable. I might be interested... usually prefer talking with my team though
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On December 06 2010 16:12 Kennigit wrote:
We've been talking about this since before Beta even started. We have a number of solutions - they are in the pipeline.
Yay Hopefully a new section is made!
Reading the forum would be pretty awesome; it would shed a lot of light on what the top-tier gamers are doing.
I wonder what the criteria would be to be able to post in that forum...
+ Show Spoiler +
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On December 07 2010 07:35 aquanda wrote:
Pros won't share secrets or how tos on how to be uber. There is simply no incentive for them.
However, there is a huge disparity between pro and high level diamond, as well as silver and high diamond. I don't think a pro forum would work, but separating the casual player who likes to make incorrect asumptions based on his lack of experience from a high diamond player who has over 1k games played at a competitive level would be a huge step in a positive direction.
Hi Aquanda...
There is a huge disconnect between what a 2200 diamond player can do and a true elite/pro player. That's why certain builds work for pros and seem to have so many holes against solid (1800-2200) diamond players.
And yes, that's what teams are for its doubtful that you would find too much quality here.
I remember spending late, late nights with the aBs guys and Hurkyl on the GX server and working on the perfect timings in TvP on both sides. For all the discussion it was a lot more games. I think this is much more of how you find the progamming teams play. One person will just play extremely standard and solid and the other will keep trying different strategies to find a hole in it. (or vice versa)
Obviously with replays now you can just pause the replay and see where someone is at a certain point and then try using builds to beat the timer to get the unit combo you want when you would need it verse that build.
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On December 07 2010 11:36 MjrBuzz wrote:
I was a little disconcerted when they discussed this on SOTG. They had mention one idea was around posts counts. As a several year lurker, a recent sign up, and only occasional poster, why should my opinion be invalidated because I don't spam a response on every thread. If a post count requirement was created you will run into even more spam so individuals could meet this requirement.
I know this has been mentioned in the past but balance discussions derail more threads than anything else on here. With the PTR, and 2 more expansions on the way, these balance discussions are not going away.Simply create a balance sub-forum. Any discussion of race or unit balance should be done here only. All other forums should take the mentality of the game is 100% balanced. And any attempts to derail with balance discussion should be addressed/redirected via a mod. This would allow one specific area for balance discussion and leave everywhere else to productive and healthy discussion.
The strategy section should be an area for strategic advice. It's all about trying things out and finding what works for you. It should not be a golden singular answer. Where the strategy section and even several threads in sc2 general has turned into a joke is from the imba imba responses. I love TL and want to see it remain the top non-Korean SC resource.
I'm pretty sure that the idea is to have players at a certain skill level, not a certain post count. There would still be a strategy forum for everyone else, there'd just be another one for people to see what pro-level players think.
Absolutely agree about balance whining, but that's not really on-topic (and there's that whole stupid auto-reply of 'whining about whining' but I digress).
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I think an easier solution, which would not require a new forum section would be simply a thumbs up/down of posts. For example if someone asks about the reasons for the current zerg metagame. As people respond you can simply +1/-1 to the strength of their posts, then just have a simple -5, limit where that post is automatically spoilered/minimised. Of course admins would have more strength and if you wanted you could give bonus's to 'pros'.
The only hurdle is making sure a user can only thumbs down a post once.
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Even if only pros could post there, if the rest of us could read and benefit from us, you know there's only gonna be a ton of response threads in the General or Strategy forums pulling quotes out of context and criticizing/arguing about what the pros say to each other.
Just because the response isn't in the actual thread itself doesn't mean it's not gonna happen. Too many trolls, man.
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I think its really interesting to see that overall, people seem to be much more responsive to this idea in the past. Maybe its that it seems more possible logistically now than it was then. As I recall the main argument was that the highest tier of players wouldn't want to give away strategies and that sorting through people who were below that to see who gets it doesn't have an easy solution.
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Yes. I can see this working well for the progamers. It would be neat if everyone could read it. :3
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While I think some pros may not give away strategies, that doesn't mean that all pros won't share their strategies. I'm sure even the most secretive of pros will attempt to at least provide feedback to the strats posted by others.
And reading the posts from the big names always makes me feel giddy.
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Well just an opinion from a " die hard " BW fan here. Just for the record I dont play SC2 .
I thought that SC2 will suck hardcore but maybe I was little bit close minded at start. Now I watch GSL( only this for SC2 ) whenever I can . In my opinion the game aint that bad as i thought it would be but infact its really good ( not at the lvl of BW for me right now ) and got unlimited potential to be even better than BW.
The game from a spectating point of view is interesting but in a different way from BW because of the game engine and its a different game duh. I love the races especially the zerg with the new Queen and the protoss aint half bad with the warp . Terran.... well marauders are imba with stim + slow shells. I think you need only one of those abilites or do the stim more HP consuming that its right now.
The balance is preety good for a new game and the only thing thats terrible I think are the maps and Blizzard greedy way of trying to exploit the game to the max. Like selling 3 copies of the full game is not enough and needing more copies to play on and tons of other stuff that I dont have time to count right now because im going to sleep so I can watch GSL tomorow !
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Personally I prefer something like the old Liquipedia Strategic Q&A rather than a dedicated subforum. The Q&As were really insightful and I wish someone would do them again for SC2.
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even if it wasnt, limited by the site or moderator... even to just split up the strategy section.
Beginners strategy. (if your fairly new or not sure where to put it, put it here)
Advanced Strategy.
It would at least begin to filter it a bit.
TL is getting to large to stay on 1 SC2 strat section....
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On December 07 2010 12:17 SkelA wrote:
Well just an opinion from a " die hard " BW fan here. Just for the record I dont play SC2 .
I thought that SC2 will suck hardcore but maybe I was little bit close minded at start. Now I watch GSL( only this for SC2 ) whenever I can . In my opinion the game aint that bad as i thought it would be but infact its really good ( not at the lvl of BW for me right now ) and got unlimited potential to be even better than BW.
The game from a spectating point of view is interesting but in a different way from BW because of the game engine and its a different game duh. I love the races especially the zerg with the new Queen and the protoss aint half bad with the warp . Terran.... well marauders are imba with stim + slow shells. I think you need only one of those abilites or do the stim more HP consuming that its right now.
The balance is preety good for a new game and the only thing thats terrible I think are the maps and Blizzard greedy way of trying to exploit the game to the max. Like selling 3 copies of the full game is not enough and needing more copies to play on and tons of other stuff that I dont have time to count right now because im going to sleep so I can watch GSL tomorow !
Did you post in the wrong thread?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Doesn't matter what we normal players want. If the pros and actual great players don't want such a forum then it won't matter.
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Although it sounds fine in theory, good players are often terrible posters, extremely biased and opinionated. Which can lead to pretty dire forum, and really without actually quality posting it doesn't matter how good the players are that are allowed to post, bad posting is bad posting.
I voted Yes, but really it would probably fail due to lack of quantity and then quality.
A reputation system or simple up/down vote for posts would go a long way to improving at least the readability of the threads, even if there is a lot of rubbish it can be easily skipped past.
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On December 07 2010 11:52 Eliezar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:35 aquanda wrote:
Pros won't share secrets or how tos on how to be uber. There is simply no incentive for them.
However, there is a huge disparity between pro and high level diamond, as well as silver and high diamond. I don't think a pro forum would work, but separating the casual player who likes to make incorrect asumptions based on his lack of experience from a high diamond player who has over 1k games played at a competitive level would be a huge step in a positive direction.
Hi Aquanda... There is a huge disconnect between what a 2200 diamond player can do and a true elite/pro player. That's why certain builds work for pros and seem to have so many holes against solid (1800-2200) diamond players. And yes, that's what teams are for its doubtful that you would find too much quality here. I remember spending late, late nights with the aBs guys and Hurkyl on the GX server and working on the perfect timings in TvP on both sides. For all the discussion it was a lot more games. I think this is much more of how you find the progamming teams play. One person will just play extremely standard and solid and the other will keep trying different strategies to find a hole in it. (or vice versa) Obviously with replays now you can just pause the replay and see where someone is at a certain point and then try using builds to beat the timer to get the unit combo you want when you would need it verse that build.
Yah I think you misread what I was saying. I actually meant there is a huge difference between high diamond and pros. And there is also a huge difference between silver and high diamond. The level of skill involved going from from silver->high diamond->pro is very large each jump, but I doubt any pros will utilize a forum, even if it's designed for them. The people I would expect to use the forum are the high level diamond players who don't really have aspirations to go professional, but are still very good.
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please please please do something like this
the biggest difference i have noticed between good and bad players is how solid the strategies are
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i just think the strategy forum should be split into sections to make topics easier to go through.
edit for clarity: a help forum, a general discussion forum, and a build order forum.
I wouldnt mind seeing a "top players only" forum but as others have said i do not think it would work. A lot of the times the best strategies are come up by people that are really bad at the game and just take pro implementation to work.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Okay I'm locking this because
a) It's not going anywhere
b) We've been working on a solution for a long time, and this thread isn't bringing anything new to the table
Stay tuned!
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EPT
