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On November 21 2010 14:34 Tonyoh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 14:28 eggs wrote:On November 21 2010 14:25 Tonyoh wrote:
Best way to explain that :
Girls DONT play RTS because their female friends DONT play them.
Even if there is a girl who plays it because she has male friend that play SC2, she won't play it AS MUCH, and takes it AS SERIOUS, because it's a GAME.
Now you have the answer. Not enough pool. umm, my female relatives living in korea and their friends were all better than me at SC:BW. your argument doesn't explain why even the korean females who got progamer contracts couldn't compete with the male progamers. Much more korean girls who play starcraft (in % of Korea) that americanwomen (in% of America)
that doesn't answer question.
why are even the female korean pros at such a lower level than the male korean pros?
the skill gap isn't that wide in other genres such as WoW arena (Hafu won MLG) or fighting games (Vanessa Arteaga), but TossGirl isn't at the same skill level as the top 10 SC:BW players.
ESL has female tournaments. why are the best females in europe not at the same level as the top males? why is starcraft different?
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Because the vast majority of females aren't interested in this competitive RTS. It's just numbers.
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On November 21 2010 14:43 keV. wrote:
Because the vast majority of females aren't interested in this competitive RTS. It's just numbers.
it's not about majorities, it's about the top 10. the vast majority of females aren't interested in fighting games. Vanessa Arteaga is in the top 10. what makes starcraft different? it's not a rhetorical question. i'm not saying "all games should be the same so there should be no reason why there's no top girl." im literally asking what it is about starcraft that makes it so there are no top females.
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On November 21 2010 14:44 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 14:43 keV. wrote:
Because the vast majority of females aren't interested in this competitive RTS. It's just numbers. it's not about majorities, it's about the top 10. the vast majority of females aren't interested in fighting games. Vanessa Arteaga is in the top 10. what makes starcraft different? it's not a rhetorical question. i'm not saying "all games should be the same so there should be no reason why there's no top girl." im literally asking what it is about starcraft that makes it so there are no top females.
There is no genetic rule that states women can't be as good at SC2 as men. They are just not interested or are not working hard enough.
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On November 21 2010 14:49 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 14:44 eggs wrote:On November 21 2010 14:43 keV. wrote:
Because the vast majority of females aren't interested in this competitive RTS. It's just numbers. it's not about majorities, it's about the top 10. the vast majority of females aren't interested in fighting games. Vanessa Arteaga is in the top 10. what makes starcraft different? it's not a rhetorical question. i'm not saying "all games should be the same so there should be no reason why there's no top girl." im literally asking what it is about starcraft that makes it so there are no top females. There is no genetic rule that states women can't be as good at SC2 as men. They are just not interested or are not working hard enough.
so you don't think even the best female player in the world isn't working hard enough?
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On November 21 2010 14:51 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 14:49 keV. wrote:On November 21 2010 14:44 eggs wrote:On November 21 2010 14:43 keV. wrote:
Because the vast majority of females aren't interested in this competitive RTS. It's just numbers. it's not about majorities, it's about the top 10. the vast majority of females aren't interested in fighting games. Vanessa Arteaga is in the top 10. what makes starcraft different? it's not a rhetorical question. i'm not saying "all games should be the same so there should be no reason why there's no top girl." im literally asking what it is about starcraft that makes it so there are no top females. There is no genetic rule that states women can't be as good at SC2 as men. They are just not interested or are not working hard enough. so you don't think even the best female player in the world isn't working hard enough?
No.
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Women generally aren't as competitive as men, especially in areas that most of them don't care about like gaming.
Seriously, my competitiveness sometimes scares my female friends. They never thought about taking anything as seriously as I do sometimes.
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On November 21 2010 14:54 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 14:51 eggs wrote:On November 21 2010 14:49 keV. wrote:On November 21 2010 14:44 eggs wrote:On November 21 2010 14:43 keV. wrote:
Because the vast majority of females aren't interested in this competitive RTS. It's just numbers. it's not about majorities, it's about the top 10. the vast majority of females aren't interested in fighting games. Vanessa Arteaga is in the top 10. what makes starcraft different? it's not a rhetorical question. i'm not saying "all games should be the same so there should be no reason why there's no top girl." im literally asking what it is about starcraft that makes it so there are no top females. There is no genetic rule that states women can't be as good at SC2 as men. They are just not interested or are not working hard enough. so you don't think even the best female player in the world isn't working hard enough? No.
so maybe the issue is that the skill cap for starcraft is just much higher than other genres/games that females have excelled in (FPS, fighting, WoW, guitar hero)
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On November 21 2010 15:04 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 14:54 keV. wrote:On November 21 2010 14:51 eggs wrote:On November 21 2010 14:49 keV. wrote:On November 21 2010 14:44 eggs wrote:On November 21 2010 14:43 keV. wrote:
Because the vast majority of females aren't interested in this competitive RTS. It's just numbers. it's not about majorities, it's about the top 10. the vast majority of females aren't interested in fighting games. Vanessa Arteaga is in the top 10. what makes starcraft different? it's not a rhetorical question. i'm not saying "all games should be the same so there should be no reason why there's no top girl." im literally asking what it is about starcraft that makes it so there are no top females. There is no genetic rule that states women can't be as good at SC2 as men. They are just not interested or are not working hard enough. so you don't think even the best female player in the world isn't working hard enough? No. so maybe the issue is that the skill cap for starcraft is just much higher than other genres/games that females have excelled in (FPS, fighting, WoW, guitar hero)
I would say you're half right. It's not that women aren't capable of playing even the hardest game; the problem is finding the woman who will play that game itself. The learning curve on an RTS is steep and finding anybody willing to work at it who isn't already a fan of the genre or series will make it even less likely for a person to take the game seriously. Couple that with all of the odds stacked against anybody being noticed, regardless of gender, and you see why it's so small.
Seriously, go find anybody who hasn't play sc2 before or many RTS and let them play. Some might enjoy it, but the % who will actually like it enough to put in effort to try to legitimately be good would be very, very small. The smaller female player base makes it even less likely to find that person.
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On November 21 2010 14:44 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 14:43 keV. wrote:
Because the vast majority of females aren't interested in this competitive RTS. It's just numbers. it's not about majorities, it's about the top 10. the vast majority of females aren't interested in fighting games. Vanessa Arteaga is in the top 10. what makes starcraft different? it's not a rhetorical question. i'm not saying "all games should be the same so there should be no reason why there's no top girl." im literally asking what it is about starcraft that makes it so there are no top females.
I think it has something to do with the genre, and the demands that SC places on you.
I'm not necessarily saying that the fighting game scene is less competitive, but it's definitely less developed and it doesn't have the same infrastructure as SC does. Guys like Daigo and Jwong probably DO put in the time required to stay at the top, but they don't live in team houses and have strict 8-10 hour practice schedules. They might be sponsored, and they might play a LOT, but they also have lives outside of gaming. How is this possible? It's because they don't NEED to invest as much time and energy to stay ahead of the competition.
In the world of SC it's different. If you're not a true "pro" then you don't really have a chance. To be in the top 10 in the world you most definitely need to be part of a top team, living, eating and breathing Starcraft 24/7. Hell, this probably applies to the top 50 or even the top 200. If you're just some random high level Diamond guy (or girl) who practices for a few hours a day at home, in the end you're never going to be able to compete with people who have made Starcraft their entire life.
So how many girls are in top Starcraft teams? Well, one. And she doesn't even live with the team or show up to their Proleague matches =/
If we're ever going to see any female gamers enjoy the success that Tossgirl has enjoyed (and I use the term "success" to mean relative to other female gamers) then they first have to be recruited by teams so that they can become part of the infrastructure which will train them and turn them into the kind of players who can compete at the highest level. This is why tournaments like the ESL Female Cup are good, because they allow good players to gain exposure and possibly be recruited or offered sponsorship deals.
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Plain and simple women are just not as good.
Perfect example, playing pool. Requires absolutely no physical strength and you dont get a bonus for having a dick. Women are just not as good. Same goes for bowling, women are not as good.
worlds strongest man competition.. er nvm.. hell even guys are better at gymnastics, it's just 10,000 years of evolution are large family breeding.
edit: no sexist part here, just a simple fact. Now if we were to go into cooking or doing laundry..
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 21 2010 15:48 Rickilicious wrote:
edit: no sexist part here, just a simple fact. Now if we were to go into cooking or doing laundry..
...
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You know. I really want to see a babe in that sc2 tournament GSL booth instead of a handsome nerd. I'm a guy after all. You hot girls out there. Start investing your life into sc2 seriously and make that happen please. If you win GSL 4, you'll be a star. You'll be rich. You'll be know as the hottest first female winner of the GSL.
.........Now put those books down. Turn on your PC and play some sc2 games. 
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On November 21 2010 17:06 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 15:48 Rickilicious wrote:
edit: no sexist part here, just a simple fact. Now if we were to go into cooking or doing laundry.. ...
Yeah, I laughed at that.
In terms of the topic, it's simple: The percentage of males who are willing to spend large amounts of time refining their gaming ability is much, much larger than the percentage of females willing to do the same. This isn't really about genetics or biology. It's about the size of the talent pool. It's the main reason Koreans whoop everybody at Brood War.
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I think it contributes that guys more often grow up with games. I'd wager that a good chunk of the competitive SC community played a significant amount of video games in their youth and teens. Like any other skill, building that familiarity when you're young gives you a significant advantage. A girl might still have the ability to reach an equal peak ability, but it's going to be much harder for her to do so. The learning curve is going to be much, much higher. I know plenty of girls who game quite a bit, but a large percentage of them didn't start until college, once they had gotten past the need to conform to gender stereotypes. Those who did play games often at a younger age played the games more associated with their gender, which tend to be low skill games (the Sims for example). These girls enjoy gaming, but they have a very hard time with high skill cap games.
Obviously, you can't deal completely in absolutes. There are plenty of girls out there who were gamers in their youth, but the number pales in comparison to men. I think that's at least part of the reason you see a large amount of women playing games, but for the most part, playing low skill games.
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fewer girls play video games
fewer gamers play rts
fewer females play RTS
its like a tiny amount, i know more women that play tf2 than i know of sc2
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Women are generally less competitive than men, its to do with evolution. Because there are less highly competitive women, less are attracted to something that is by its nature highly competitive like professional gaming.
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Starcraft requires independent decision making in every single game. That, coupled with the actual practice needed to excel mechanically makes it extremely difficult for both males and females to reach a pro status. Since there are a lot less female RTS gamers than male, the chance of seeing one on top is less likely.
It is more likely to see females excel at more basic games like FPS because there is less training needed. Even though they might be vastly outnumbered by men, they can still shine because it is faster to reach top level mechanics in FPS.
It really has nothing to do with gender besides the fact they are grossly outnumbered.
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It's pretty clear that there are a lot of possible explanations for why there are very few competitive female SC players, and any opinion anyone could possibly have for which of those factors is more important is based purely on conjecture and not upon established fact. In this thread people have raised the possibility that genetic differences make women less likely to be good at Starcraft, but since we have no data on this point and since neuroscience doesn't have anything clear to say about cognitive differences between men and women, there's no need to say anything further on the subject. However it is clear that women are less likely to play SC then men and also feel more embarassment acknowledging their skill. This will also make them less likely to try to develop their skill. At the very least there are a number of social factors that prevent or make it less likely for female gamers to reach the upper eschelon of SC.
Regardless of the underlying factors, if we believe it is important to see more women competing at high levels in SC, and I do believe it is, there are things we can do to reduce the disparity. We can show support and encouragement for female gamers and recognize the hard work and contributions of top female players. We can also give more coverage and attention to female tournaments.
Unlike most physical sports, e-sports are unique because there is no a priori reason to believe that elite women will not be able to reach the same level of performance as elite men. For that reason e-sports creates the exciting opportunity to see the genders meet eachother as equal competitors. I hope that that can happen some day.
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i don't get it!
"discussing the lack of top female starcraft gamers" ?
what is there to discuss?
there are a lot top female starcraft gamers! not so many known, most of them smart enough to not draw attention (and i really mean smart, not in a sarcasm way)
i mean if some wanna be top then they'll get there if not than not!
ok...maybe not a lot but let's say there are some...
at least in the female leagues and cups there are some top players amongst casuals (if those leagues make sense is another thread  )
what i especially don't get is the "lack"
i wasn't aware that anyone is missing more of one specific gender ingame?!
i mean i don't care ingame if someone is one or the other...not even if i am watching games...
what gender is behind someone's id is maybe interesting outta game but does really not make any difference while playing and if not mentioned by casters would not even be known!
or would it make ingame a difference if dimaga or fruitdealer or whoever (just in theory - sry dmytro and kim but i guess you guys aren't reading this anyway) would be actually a girl? outside of the battlefields, on lans or big offline events where you meet someone face-to face - maybe - but that's another thing...
now that i think about it - why would it even make a difference outside the game? if someone's cool and nice i don't give anything about stuff like their gender! not in the game, not in teamspeaks or skype or whatever you use, not in anything related to gaming!
if i want a date i get out and find me one (also just in theory ) but that has absolutely nothing to do with your gaming experience...
either way i'm just saying if it comes to gaming it should not make a difference!
so this whole "lack of top female sc gamers" should not exist (not saying the thread shouldn't exist - unfortunately this whole thing seems to be an issue for people, so i guess t's ok )
was already surprised that the "female only leagues" and "less women competing" is a hot topic and i'm kinda surprised that stuff like this is also an important thing nowadays...
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EPT
