• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:02
CEST 20:02
KST 03:02
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles2[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?14FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
SC uni coach streams logging into betting site ASL20 Preliminary Maps Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2024! Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 667 users

SCFusion - WoL, HotS & LotV Build Order Optimizer - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 74 75 76 Next
CarbonTwelve
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia525 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-13 11:23:31
November 13 2010 11:01 GMT
#81
Hi all,

Sorry for the lack of updates, but work has been progressing. I've just submitted a new version with support for waypoints, buildings, and the warpgate research. I've also made quite a few other various tweaks and adjustments to various parts of the algorithm, I think part of which means it will be more likely to take warpgate research of its own accord.

There was a crash that a few people noticed and PM'd me about (thanks for that!) and I think I've fixed it now, so if you notice any more crashes please let me know.

Next on the agenda will be to implement the rest of the upgrades.

Please keep the feedback coming, and hopefully the future updates can happen a bit more regularly.

- Carbon

Edit: Figured I should probably provide a link to the download page

http://code.google.com/p/scbuildorder/downloads/list
lowlypawn
Profile Joined January 2009
United States241 Posts
November 13 2010 11:17 GMT
#82
Nice, cant wait to try it out when I get home!
Barook
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany143 Posts
November 13 2010 11:22 GMT
#83
Nice upgrades! Keep up the good work.

Support for upgrades would be nice. The current build lacks a Forge and cannons.

Could a priority system be integrated? I.e. that certain buildings/units/upgrades have priority over others. E.g. you want to throw down a early cannon for defense while teching.
"Blink is pretty good, it helps your Stalkers to die quicker."
CarbonTwelve
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia525 Posts
November 13 2010 11:25 GMT
#84
On November 13 2010 20:22 Barook wrote:
Could a priority system be integrated? I.e. that certain buildings/units/upgrades have priority over others. E.g. you want to throw down a early cannon for defense while teching.


You can do that with waypoints. After I've put cannons in (just an oversight) you could have Waypoint 1 as 1 cannon by 300s, then have the Target as what you actually want to get.
Tekelve
Profile Joined May 2010
France10 Posts
November 13 2010 11:30 GMT
#85
Great work ! V2 seems to work smooth.

Suggestions :

- Display of the result seem to be refreshed on every evolution even though the current result is still the best one

- Maybe it would be useful to display when was the last time a better result was found ?

- (already discussed) being able current economy rate indeed would be a major improvement
i just try a simple thing :
* 2 DT's + warp gate VS 2DTs + warp gate + 20 probes and with a 6 second difference turns out you can have your 4 probes

IamSoCrazy
Profile Joined August 2010
France25 Posts
November 13 2010 11:37 GMT
#86
Thanks a lot, I am closely following the progress of this tool and can't believe you already made an update As I recently switched to protoss, it helps.

Keep up the good work.
CarbonTwelve
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia525 Posts
November 13 2010 11:39 GMT
#87
On November 13 2010 20:30 Tekelve wrote:
- Display of the result seem to be refreshed on every evolution even though the current result is still the best one


Atm it's updated with a timer that runs once a second. I'll make a change for the next version so that it only updates the display if it actually changes.

- Maybe it would be useful to display when was the last time a better result was found ?


Yep, that's fairly easy to do - would combine it with the above change.

- (already discussed) being able current economy rate indeed would be a major improvement
i just try a simple thing :
* 2 DT's + warp gate VS 2DTs + warp gate + 20 probes and with a 6 second difference turns out you can have your 4 probes


Yeah, I've noticed similar things, even to huge differences where you can double your probes for only 5s longer. Unfortunately it's not easy to describe how much of a trade off you want to make - is it worth it for 5s? How about 10s? 20s? I'm continually tweaking the fitness calculator though, and I think my original version actually did this a lot better, although the new one handles waypoints in a decent way, so I'll have to work on a combination of the two. Also I need to work out how to force it to consider building more probes - if you request just 5 stalkers atm it'll give you a BO within ~5:15, but if you tell it to get 16 probes too it brings it down to ~4:45. Plenty more to do, just gonna take time
dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
November 13 2010 11:45 GMT
#88
Got a crash on a 1 Warp Prism test after around 5-10 minutes.

Windows 7 x64 (x86 redist ofc)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1719/sc2buildordercrash.jpg
CarbonTwelve
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia525 Posts
November 13 2010 11:55 GMT
#89
On November 13 2010 20:45 dcemuser wrote:
Got a crash on a 1 Warp Prism test after around 5-10 minutes.

Windows 7 x64 (x86 redist ofc)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1719/sc2buildordercrash.jpg


Damn

Just running it myself, looks like there's a memory leak - memory usage is just climbing... Will try to fix this one tonight.
undyinglight
Profile Joined December 2008
United States611 Posts
November 13 2010 11:56 GMT
#90
This thing is amazing, I wish they had one for Starcraft 1, hats off to you.
Rise Up!
MalVortex
Profile Joined May 2010
United States119 Posts
November 13 2010 11:58 GMT
#91
On November 13 2010 20:39 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Yeah, I've noticed similar things, even to huge differences where you can double your probes for only 5s longer. Unfortunately it's not easy to describe how much of a trade off you want to make - is it worth it for 5s? How about 10s? 20s? I'm continually tweaking the fitness calculator though, and I think my original version actually did this a lot better, although the new one handles waypoints in a decent way, so I'll have to work on a combination of the two. Also I need to work out how to force it to consider building more probes - if you request just 5 stalkers atm it'll give you a BO within ~5:15, but if you tell it to get 16 probes too it brings it down to ~4:45. Plenty more to do, just gonna take time


Would it be possible for the program to note that a slight variation in build for more of X is possible, and suggest it as an alternative? So if it notices that you can get many more probes for 5 more seconds, it offers it as a point of comparison and option to optimize for that instead?

Or perhaps instead, what about an option of "always build probes", or "always build probes until X probes reached"? That should be pretty easy to implement I would think, and would emulate the way a standard, non-all-in build would want to play to begin with. Setting an arbitrary probe count number by an arbitrary time count number sort of emulates this methodology, but I think a simple option for this sort of production would be much more intuitive.

Suggestions aside, I really like the improvements you made in version 2 - its much more intuitive and has a much cleaner output. Great work so far!
People are like the stars - There are bright ones and those that are dim
CtrlAltDefeat
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel106 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-13 12:19:57
November 13 2010 12:15 GMT
#92
Thanks for the update, keep up the good work.

For some reason though, it sometimes tells me to get 3 Assimilators off 1 Nexus.

EDIT: Oh, and an option for constant probe production would be really nice too
CarbonTwelve
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia525 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-13 12:46:34
November 13 2010 12:35 GMT
#93
Ok, looks like the latest crash isn't a memory leak as such, just that because of a combination of the fitness function changes and adding a duplication mutator it means the chromosomes just keep growing and growing (especially after it's already settled on an optimal build). I'll have to adjust the fitness function again. New release shortly......

Edit: Ok, done, v2.1 released: http://code.google.com/p/scbuildorder/downloads/list
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
November 13 2010 12:39 GMT
#94
On November 13 2010 08:01 CarbonTwelve wrote:

Show nested quote +
On November 13 2010 01:58 Morfildur wrote:
I wonder if i could code this in C# myself and how fast it would be (definatly faster than java from my experience with both languages), time to read into the theory.


Obviously you're welcome to try, and it's always good having someone redesign something as you might find reasons for doing things in a different way that I can then incorporate into my code. Honestly though, I doubt you'll get anywhere near the speed that my app achieves, basically because of the lack of control over memory allocations in C# and garbage collection just getting in the way.


Thats an argument i hear from all C/C++ programmers, but as a long time C programmer i can say that the difference is actually far smaller for C# than someone might expect (i was always bringing this argument, too, until i tested it myself after getting enough C# experience to get good benchmarks). I think that rumor exists mostly because of Javas poor implementation of memory management.

Ofc .NET still has portability issues, but well, which SC2 player plays it with wine on Linux/BSD anyways?

Anyways, very good work so far, i really appreciate this program.
Any news on a terran version? As a random player i need new builds for all races
CarbonTwelve
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia525 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-13 12:51:09
November 13 2010 12:49 GMT
#95
On November 13 2010 21:39 Morfildur wrote:
Thats an argument i hear from all C/C++ programmers, but as a long time C programmer i can say that the difference is actually far smaller for C# than someone might expect (i was always bringing this argument, too, until i tested it myself after getting enough C# experience to get good benchmarks). I think that rumor exists mostly because of Javas poor implementation of memory management.


Well, I'm speaking from my personal experience of implementing solvers (A*, depth searches, etc.) in C#, but again, I'd be happy to be proven wrong

I guess there isn't as much dynamic allocation in this system, so with some tricky object management & pooling you might be able to get away with it, but given the build orders are dynamic I still don't think you'll get close to the speed of C++. I'd expect somewhere half way between my app and Lomilar's.

Any news on a terran version? As a random player i need new builds for all races


Terran will probably be a little ways down the track. I need to get the basic Protoss features all completed and make sure everything is stable, then probably get the GUI sorted out a bit more and do the Zerg GUI (given the algorithm is done for Zerg), and then I can start working on Terran.
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-13 12:59:25
November 13 2010 12:59 GMT
#96
On November 13 2010 21:35 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Ok, looks like the latest crash isn't a memory leak as such, just that because of a combination of the fitness function changes and adding a duplication mutator it means the chromosomes just keep growing and growing (especially after it's already settled on an optimal build). I'll have to adjust the fitness function again. New release shortly......

Edit: Ok, done, v2.1 released: http://code.google.com/p/scbuildorder/downloads/list


Thanks, that was fast. Could you keep all versions available?
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
CarbonTwelve
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia525 Posts
November 13 2010 13:01 GMT
#97
On November 13 2010 21:59 Dionyseus wrote:
Thanks, that was fast. Could you keep all versions available?


They're all there, just I marked the older ones as deprecated. If you want to see them still you can by going to downloads, changing the search combo from 'Current downloads' to 'All downloads', then hit search.
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
November 13 2010 13:03 GMT
#98
On November 13 2010 22:01 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2010 21:59 Dionyseus wrote:
Thanks, that was fast. Could you keep all versions available?


They're all there, just I marked the older ones as deprecated. If you want to see them still you can by going to downloads, changing the search combo from 'Current downloads' to 'All downloads', then hit search.


Thanks.

Noticed a possible issue in the newest release. The default time for the target tab is 1500, but in settings it's at 1200, dunno if that would cause a problem.

btw the gui is looking so much better now than in the first version, nice job
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
Tekelve
Profile Joined May 2010
France10 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-13 13:23:05
November 13 2010 13:06 GMT
#99
On November 13 2010 20:58 MalVortex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2010 20:39 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Yeah, I've noticed similar things, even to huge differences where you can double your probes for only 5s longer. Unfortunately it's not easy to describe how much of a trade off you want to make - is it worth it for 5s? How about 10s? 20s? I'm continually tweaking the fitness calculator though, and I think my original version actually did this a lot better, although the new one handles waypoints in a decent way, so I'll have to work on a combination of the two. Also I need to work out how to force it to consider building more probes - if you request just 5 stalkers atm it'll give you a BO within ~5:15, but if you tell it to get 16 probes too it brings it down to ~4:45. Plenty more to do, just gonna take time


Would it be possible for the program to note that a slight variation in build for more of X is possible, and suggest it as an alternative? So if it notices that you can get many more probes for 5 more seconds, it offers it as a point of comparison and option to optimize for that instead?

Or perhaps instead, what about an option of "always build probes", or "always build probes until X probes reached"? That should be pretty easy to implement I would think, and would emulate the way a standard, non-all-in build would want to play to begin with. Setting an arbitrary probe count number by an arbitrary time count number sort of emulates this methodology, but I think a simple option for this sort of production would be much more intuitive.



I guess the simple way is to create several objectives with resources focus that would maybe lead to interesting results like :

- reach mineral (and/or gas) saturation on X bases
- like MalVortex said constantly build probes until X (n° of probes reached, expand happens, ...)

Then i don't know if it is easy to include in the score (my AI classes are quite old !) but you could include a custom weight on "main objectives" to help get your main goal (basically time or ecom).
For example :
- 1st waypoint 1 stalker / 1 sentry with 75% weight on econ
- 2nd waypoint 2 zealots/2 stalkers/1 obs/1immortal with 25% weight on econ


The other aspect and obviously a lot harder is finding build on standard settings with very similar result on one aspect (time) but better result on another (econ).
Here are some thoughts about that :

- a manual way : keep a top 10 results list and extract indicators based the best build (delta in econ wealth / time) so that a human can choose based on is knowledge

- a 2nd pass algorithm that would take the top X results from genetics and sort/compare them to determine which is the best regarding those slight difference.
Then on how to determine which trade off is good or not :
* maybe you can first calculate your own weight for time and econ : for example having a 30s time difference in a 4min build if far more important than in a 10min build

* another would be to do a simulation on how the game evolve from there : since your second pass is on a smaller result set you could run a heavier simulation
For example : from you result set you can determine if a build has a better economy than the best result
- If that's the case see how long it would take to have the same economy for the best build versus this one. Then with the first delta found and that new calculation on many "good builds" i guess you can find which one is the better trade off.
- With that you can also give a 3 result set : best time / best econ / best average.
- If the second has lesser economy we can discard it obviously
CarbonTwelve
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia525 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-13 13:12:30
November 13 2010 13:08 GMT
#100
On November 13 2010 22:03 Dionyseus wrote:
Noticed a possible issue in the newest release. The default time for the target tab is 1500, but in settings it's at 1200, dunno if that would cause a problem.


Nah, doesn't cause an issue. I should probably explain the differences. The limit in the settings is a hard limit - it'll just stop processing games once it gets to that time, however, if there is a waypoint time set higher then the settings limit will be extended internally. The time limits set on the waypoints act like soft limits - it'll try and get the build order under that time, but if it doesn't it'll keep processing the game until it achieves the current waypoint. This way it'll at least find a solution so that later evolutions can improve it to get it under the time limit.

btw the gui is looking so much better now than in the first version, nice job


Thanks
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 74 75 76 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RotterdaM Event
16:00
Rotti Stream Rumble 4k Edition
RotterdaM744
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 744
mouzHeroMarine 642
Hui .265
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1085
actioN 294
Stork 264
firebathero 248
Dewaltoss 71
sSak 58
sas.Sziky 53
Rock 27
PianO 24
Aegong 12
Dota 2
Gorgc6318
qojqva3295
Counter-Strike
fl0m1311
zeus310
flusha294
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King223
Other Games
Beastyqt834
ceh9501
oskar196
KnowMe188
B2W.Neo185
PGG 172
ArmadaUGS135
ToD128
Trikslyr64
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick49642
StarCraft 2
angryscii 26
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 11
• Reevou 6
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis8251
• Jankos1603
• TFBlade1271
Other Games
• imaqtpie1187
• Shiphtur526
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
5h 58m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
15h 58m
WardiTV European League
21h 58m
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
1d 5h
The PondCast
1d 15h
WardiTV European League
1d 17h
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 21h
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.