0.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
17.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
34.00: 107M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
44.44: 116M 0G 25E 9/ 10S - Chrono Nexus
48.81: 140M 0G 2E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
48.81: 90M 0G 2E 10/ 10S - Build Assimilator
63.15: 100M 0G 11E 10/ 10S - Build Pylon
78.81: 99M 0G 19E 10/ 10S - Move Probe To Gas
88.15: 159M 7G 25E 10/ 18S - Build Gateway
95.52: 50M 12G 29E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
95.52: 0M 12G 29E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
95.52: 0M 12G 4E 11/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
106.85: 56M 28G 10E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
119.52: 87M 45G 17E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
124.93: 75M 53G 20E 13/ 18S - Build Assimilator
136.52: 74M 69G 27E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
136.52: 24M 69G 27E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
154.25: 150M 103G 37E 14/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
154.25: 0M 103G 37E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
154.25: 0M 103G 37E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
154.25: 0M 103G 37E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
164.35: 50M 138G 42E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
164.35: 0M 138G 42E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
175.68: 56M 178G 24E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
204.25: 199M 281G 40E 16/ 18S - Build Twilight Council
204.34: 50M 181G 40E 16/ 18S - Research Warpgate
204.34: 0M 131G 40E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
213.27: 50M 165G 45E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
213.27: 0M 165G 45E 17/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
222.22: 50M 199G 25E 17/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
254.25: 274M 321G 18E 17/ 18S - Build Dark Shrine
266.67: 203M 118G 25E 17/ 18S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
266.67: 203M 118G 0E 17/ 18S - Build Gateway
281.97: 150M 176G 9E 17/ 18S - Build Gateway
297.72: 100M 236G 17E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
305.60: 50M 266G 22E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
322.72: 109M 331G 32E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
324.34: 72M 337G 32E 19/ 26S - Convert Gateway To Warpgate
334.34: 150M 375G 38E 19/ 26S - Convert Gateway To Warpgate
339.72: 192M 396G 41E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
346.97: 205M 423G 45E 20/ 26S - Convert Gateway To Warpgate
346.97: 205M 423G 45E 20/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
354.25: 267M 451G 24E 20/ 26S - Build Dark Templar
354.25: 217M 301G 24E 22/ 26S - Build Dark Templar
354.25: 167M 151G 24E 24/ 26S - Build Dark Templar
359.25: 162M 20G 27E 26/ 26S - Satisfied.

Lunchtime

183 Posts

November 12 2010 04:43 GMT

#43

^ I got the same thing, DaBears57. Build was slightly different but time was same.

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

November 12 2010 04:51 GMT

#44

On November 12 2010 13:23 Lunchtime wrote:
Is the time listed real world seconds or in-game seconds (on the 'Faster' setting)?

It's in-game seconds (ie, should match the timer at bottom left).

Chronopolis

Canada1484 Posts

November 12 2010 05:05 GMT

#45

Upgrade complete. This is one hell of a cool toy.

DaBears57

United States300 Posts

November 12 2010 05:47 GMT

#46

Great program, I've got a lot of builds to try out ^_^. But there are some features that I would like to see implemented:
- A quota system like others have previously mentioned where you can specify that you want 1 stalker and 1 zealot by 300 seconds while simultaneously achieving the other defined goal.
- A total tally of units/structures/upgrades produced to allow for easy comparison between builds. For example, a table or something that lists how many probes were produced, how many gateways, if warp gate was acquired etc.
- Incorporation of upgrades, like storm and forge. It would be nice to plan some fast +1 weapons upgrade for PvZ.
- Incorporation of buildings/upgrades wanted. For example, it would be nice to use this program to find the absolute fasted time for a Korean 4 warp gate rush but in this current version if you want 4 zealots, the program will only use 1 or 2 gateways and not use warp gate tech.

All in all, great job so far, I can't wait for future versions!

Lunchtime

183 Posts

November 12 2010 06:04 GMT

#47

There's at least a 20 second difference from the time the program gives you and the time you can actually achieve these things in-game. I guess it's because it takes time to get the probes to the minerals at the beginning, time for a probe to move to a spot (where it's not mining), move back, time for the warp-in animation to complete, etc, which all adds up.

So there's likely going to be no Protoss equivalent of a 7RR being discovered with this thing. There's really nothing more efficient than the 4gate for gateway units. The program says ~6:00 for 3 DTs, add 20-25 seconds to that for practical results and you're not far off the 3 DT rush on Liquipedia which says 6:38, plus that build doesn't cut probes.

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

November 12 2010 06:24 GMT

#48

My program already handles the last two of those. It calculates a travel time of 10s for most buildings, and it allows 5s warp-in time for warpgates. But you're right, the mining rates probably are more of an 'optimal' calculation than a practical one. I should be able to adjust for that though (ie, add a 2s delay before the start of mining, and possibly adjust the income rate calculation so it's a bit more 'real world').

So there's likely going to be no Protoss equivalent of a 7RR being discovered with this thing. There's really nothing more efficient than the 4gate for gateway units. The program says ~6:00 for 3 DTs, add 20-25 seconds to that for practical results and you're not far off the 3 DT rush on Liquipedia which says 6:38, plus that build doesn't cut probes.

It's not necessarily what you use to build things, more about the order in which you build them, and when cutting probes will give you a useful edge (you could compare this by asking the algorithm to get 22 probes as well as the units you want). I'm not expecting anything ground breaking to be found, but it might help people with sorting out what is the best way to implement a timing attack for instance.

One feature I plan to add is for it to value income rate in the fitness function (and you could choose whether you want to include minerals or gas or both), which I think will be more useful than just saying to 'maximise probes' or something.

Lunchtime

183 Posts

November 12 2010 06:46 GMT

#49

Once you add in a lot more selection criteria and smooth out the output (and take into account other things which will delay the times by around the amount I mentioned), it will definitely be useful for whipping up a usable build order on the spot.

Gudeldar

United States1200 Posts

November 12 2010 07:58 GMT

#50

On November 12 2010 15:04 Lunchtime wrote:
There's at least a 20 second difference from the time the program gives you and the time you can actually achieve these things in-game. I guess it's because it takes time to get the probes to the minerals at the beginning, time for a probe to move to a spot (where it's not mining), move back, time for the warp-in animation to complete, etc, which all adds up.

So there's likely going to be no Protoss equivalent of a 7RR being discovered with this thing. There's really nothing more efficient than the 4gate for gateway units. The program says ~6:00 for 3 DTs, add 20-25 seconds to that for practical results and you're not far off the 3 DT rush on Liquipedia which says 6:38, plus that build doesn't cut probes.

I wouldn't be so sure, I put 7 stalkers in and got a build that is only 34 seconds slower than 7RR.

Evolve

Canada63 Posts

November 12 2010 08:31 GMT

#51

Really needs waypoints... Protoss doesnt play like zerg, you don't build probes until the last second and then get units... its gradual on both sides

icezar

Germany240 Posts

November 12 2010 08:52 GMT

#52

also maybe a costant probe production option

divadretrac

United Kingdom36 Posts

November 12 2010 09:14 GMT

#53

Very nice thank you.

ArcticVanguard

United States450 Posts

November 12 2010 09:27 GMT

#54

Any chance you could have upgrades as well as buildings factored in? I mean, like available as an option. For example, I want to make a +1 Attack Stalker timing push. Is there a way you could make it do that, or add it in as a feature?

GWash

United States153 Posts

November 12 2010 09:34 GMT

#55

Please PLEASE add warpgate tech to this. In fact, add any tech to this. Warpgate is most important, because who cares if you can 5 minute mothership if you have zero units.

WARPGATES

Lunchtime

183 Posts

November 12 2010 10:50 GMT

#56

On November 12 2010 16:58 Gudeldar wrote:

Show nested quote +

I wouldn't be so sure, I put 7 stalkers in and got a build that is only 34 seconds slower than 7RR.

Have you tried the build in-game?

mechler

United States26 Posts

November 12 2010 15:08 GMT

#57

This is pretty minor, but right now if the optimal build builds a unit at a gateway (for example) and chrono boosts it, they as CHRONO GATEWAY and then BUILD ZEALOT. Flipping these two around increases the readability of the build order.

IamSoCrazy

France25 Posts

November 12 2010 15:16 GMT

#58

Nice tool, thx a lot and keep up the good work. Can't wait to be able to pick buildings (gateway x3, twilight council, etc.) and upgrade (warpgate, thermal lance, etc.)

Nolari

Netherlands51 Posts

November 12 2010 15:17 GMT

#59

CarbonTwelve, I'm wondering, why do you store the events in a sorted linked list rather than in a heap?

A sorted linked list gives O(1)-time removal of the first event, but O(n)-time insertion of a new event and updating the time of an event. A heap would give O(log n) time for all three operations.

Have you found that removals are so much more frequent and n so small that the linked list is superior?