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CarbonTwelve, I wanted to let you know an update with chatting over on the sc2gears thread (Replay analyzer)
On December 06 2010 23:37 Dakota_Fanning wrote:
This would be possible. I could read a build order and related data from an external file, and open it in the Replay analyzer allowing all the features for the BO analysis that you currently have for replay analysis: charts, displaying action list, searching/filtering the action list etc..
The question is: is there a need for this? (I'm not talking about 2-3 people who would like this..) If many people want it, it can be implemented.
My Reply:
I'll confirm this in the other thread. Thanks for your consideration. If it seems to be a feature that is wanted by a large enough scope of people , I'll suggest to Carbontwelve to send you a message to coordinate/suggest. He's the author of the build order analyzer.
On a random note, if you haven't already, maybe you should hop over and try it out, it's rather impressive. Figured this would be up to you in the future. The ability to analyze a build order on sc2gears would be fantastic IMHO to find out how to improve build orders you find yourself... but again, it'll be up to you if you think this feature would be appreciated by the masses.
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It'd be awesome if sc2gears was integrated into SCBuildOrder as a portion of the fitness function.
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Hi,
Been a while since a release because I'm still busy learning a new cross platform toolkit to re-implement the GUI in (I've settled on wxWidgets). Anyway, got frustrated knowing there were some simple bugs that could be fixed up so I made a small release.
v8.1 release
Changelog:
Initial extra larva fixed
Arm nuke factory requirement added
Planetary fortress requirements fixed
- Carbon
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On December 10 2010 18:40 LegacyObserver wrote:CarbonTwelve, I wanted to let you know an update with chatting over on the sc2gears thread (Replay analyzer) Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 23:37 Dakota_Fanning wrote:
This would be possible. I could read a build order and related data from an external file, and open it in the Replay analyzer allowing all the features for the BO analysis that you currently have for replay analysis: charts, displaying action list, searching/filtering the action list etc..
The question is: is there a need for this? (I'm not talking about 2-3 people who would like this..) If many people want it, it can be implemented. Show nested quote +My Reply:
I'll confirm this in the other thread. Thanks for your consideration. If it seems to be a feature that is wanted by a large enough scope of people , I'll suggest to Carbontwelve to send you a message to coordinate/suggest. He's the author of the build order analyzer.
On a random note, if you haven't already, maybe you should hop over and try it out, it's rather impressive. Figured this would be up to you in the future. The ability to analyze a build order on sc2gears would be fantastic IMHO to find out how to improve build orders you find yourself... but again, it'll be up to you if you think this feature would be appreciated by the masses.
Thanks for organising that LegacyObserver. I figured that they might not see the need for it in SC2Gears, but if there is enough support for it and they decide to implement it I'll certainly be up for adding support for the format they use. I don't actively check their thread though, so if you could keep me up to date with any developments on their end relating to it then that'd be greatly appreciated.
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On December 11 2010 21:54 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Hi,
Been a while since a release because I'm still busy learning a new cross platform toolkit to re-implement the GUI in (I've settled on wxWidgets). Anyway, got frustrated knowing there were some simple bugs that could be fixed up so I made a small release.
v8.1 release
Changelog:
Initial extra larva fixed
Arm nuke factory requirement added
Planetary fortress requirements fixed
- Carbon
great job, thanks a lot. keep it up! 
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20 scvs 8 marines with stimpack 1 thor in 6 minutes 19 seconds:
+ Show Spoiler +
0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 11S - Build SCV
0:19.00: 73M 0G 0E 7/ 11S - (SCV Spawned)
0:19.00: 73M 0G 0E 7/ 11S - Build SCV
0:36.00: 106M 0G 0E 8/ 11S - (SCV Spawned)
0:36.00: 106M 0G 0E 8/ 11S - Build SCV
0:53.00: 150M 0G 0E 9/ 11S - (SCV Spawned)
0:53.00: 150M 0G 0E 9/ 11S - Build SCV
0:53.03: 100M 0G 0E 10/ 11S - Build Supply Depot
1:10.00: 91M 0G 0E 10/ 11S - (SCV Spawned)
1:10.00: 91M 0G 0E 10/ 11S - Build SCV
1:23.03: 122M 0G 0E 11/ 11S - (Supply Depot Completed)
1:27.00: 147M 0G 0E 11/ 19S - (SCV Spawned)
1:27.00: 147M 0G 0E 11/ 19S - Build SCV
1:27.00: 97M 0G 0E 12/ 19S - Build Refinery
1:44.00: 139M 0G 0E 12/ 19S - (SCV Spawned)
1:44.00: 139M 0G 0E 12/ 19S - Build SCV
1:51.96: 150M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - Build Barracks (Naked)
1:57.00: 32M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - (Refinery Completed)
1:57.00: 32M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas
1:57.00: 32M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas
1:57.00: 32M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas
2:01.00: 53M 4G 0E 13/ 19S - (SCV Spawned)
2:01.00: 53M 4G 0E 13/ 19S - Build SCV
2:18.00: 110M 36G 0E 14/ 19S - (SCV Spawned)
2:18.00: 110M 36G 0E 14/ 19S - Build SCV
2:35.00: 179M 68G 0E 15/ 19S - (SCV Spawned)
2:35.00: 179M 68G 0E 15/ 19S - Build SCV
2:35.00: 129M 68G 0E 16/ 19S - Build Refinery
2:51.96: 171M 101G 0E 16/ 19S - (Barracks Completed)
2:52.00: 171M 101G 0E 16/ 19S - (SCV Spawned)
2:52.00: 171M 101G 0E 16/ 19S - Build Orbital Command
2:55.83: 50M 108G 0E 16/ 19S - Build Barracks Tech Lab
3:05.00: 78M 100G 0E 16/ 19S - (Refinery Completed)
3:05.00: 78M 100G 0E 16/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas
3:13.54: 150M 120G 0E 16/ 19S - Build Factory (Naked)
3:13.54: 0M 20G 0E 16/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas
3:20.83: 48M 41G 0E 16/ 19S - (Barracks Tech Lab Completed)
3:27.00: 92M 60G 0E 16/ 19S - (Orbital Command Completed)
3:27.00: 92M 60G 50E 16/ 19S - Build SCV
3:27.00: 42M 60G 50E 17/ 19S - Calldown MULE
3:30.00: 63M 69G 2E 17/ 19S - (MULE Spawned)
3:33.65: 100M 80G 4E 17/ 19S - Build Supply Depot
3:44.00: 93M 111G 10E 17/ 19S - (SCV Spawned)
3:44.00: 93M 111G 10E 17/ 19S - Build SCV
3:44.75: 50M 113G 10E 18/ 19S - Build Marine
3:54.74: 100M 143G 16E 19/ 19S - Research Stimpack
4:01.00: 63M 62G 19E 19/ 19S - (SCV Spawned)
4:03.65: 90M 70G 21E 19/ 19S - (Supply Depot Completed)
4:09.75: 157M 89G 24E 19/ 27S - (Marine Spawned)
4:09.75: 157M 89G 24E 19/ 27S - Build Marine
4:13.54: 151M 100G 26E 20/ 27S - (Factory Completed)
4:13.54: 151M 100G 26E 20/ 27S - Build Armory
4:13.54: 1M 0G 26E 20/ 27S - Move SCV To Gas
4:27.92: 150M 51G 34E 20/ 27S - Build Barracks (Naked)
4:27.92: 0M 51G 34E 20/ 27S - Move SCV To Minerals
4:34.75: 69M 71G 38E 20/ 27S - (Marine Spawned)
4:34.75: 69M 71G 38E 20/ 27S - Build Marine
4:37.63: 50M 80G 40E 21/ 27S - Build Factory Tech Lab
4:37.63: 0M 55G 40E 21/ 27S - Move SCV To Gas
4:59.75: 223M 133G 52E 21/ 27S - (Marine Spawned)
4:59.75: 223M 133G 52E 21/ 27S - Build Marine
4:59.75: 173M 133G 52E 22/ 27S - Calldown Extra Supplies
5:00.00: 176M 134G 2E 22/ 27S - (MULE Died)
5:02.63: 195M 143G 4E 22/ 27S - (Factory Tech Lab Completed)
5:02.75: 196M 144G 4E 22/ 27S - (Supply Depot Extra Supplied Landed)
5:18.54: 308M 200G 13E 22/ 35S - (Armory Completed)
5:18.54: 308M 200G 13E 22/ 35S - Build Thor
5:18.54: 8M 0G 13E 28/ 35S - Move SCV To Minerals
5:18.54: 8M 0G 13E 28/ 35S - Move SCV To Minerals
5:18.54: 8M 0G 13E 28/ 35S - Move SCV To Minerals
5:24.75: 62M 12G 16E 28/ 35S - (Marine Spawned)
5:24.75: 62M 12G 16E 28/ 35S - Build Marine
5:24.75: 12M 12G 16E 29/ 35S - Move SCV To Minerals
5:27.92: 44M 16G 18E 29/ 35S - (Barracks Completed)
5:28.52: 50M 17G 18E 29/ 35S - Build Marine
5:28.52: 0M 17G 18E 30/ 35S - Move SCV To Gas
5:28.52: 0M 17G 18E 30/ 35S - Move SCV To Gas
5:28.52: 0M 17G 18E 30/ 35S - Move SCV To Gas
5:28.52: 0M 17G 18E 30/ 35S - Move SCV To Gas
5:34.72: 50M 34G 22E 30/ 35S - Build SCV
5:49.75: 129M 88G 30E 31/ 35S - (Marine Spawned)
5:51.72: 146M 95G 31E 31/ 35S - (SCV Spawned)
5:51.72: 146M 95G 31E 31/ 35S - Build SCV
5:51.72: 96M 95G 31E 32/ 35S - Build Marine
5:53.52: 62M 102G 32E 33/ 35S - (Marine Spawned)
5:53.52: 62M 102G 32E 33/ 35S - Build Marine
6:08.72: 152M 156G 41E 34/ 35S - (SCV Spawned)
6:14.74: 211M 178G 44E 34/ 35S - (Stimpack Completed)
6:16.72: 230M 185G 45E 34/ 35S - (Marine Spawned)
6:18.52: 248M 191G 46E 34/ 35S - (Marine Spawned)
6:18.54: 248M 191G 46E 34/ 35S - (Thor Spawned)
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:18.54: 248M 191G 46E 34/ 35S
Income: 594M 215G
Buildings: 2 Refinery 2 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory 1 Armory 2 Tech Lab
Units: 20 SCV 8 Marine 1 Thor
Research: Stimpack
in simple format:
+ Show Spoiler +
10 Supply Depot
12 Refinery
13 Barracks (Naked)
13 Move SCV To Gas
13 Move SCV To Gas
13 Move SCV To Gas
16 Refinery
16 Orbital Command
16 Barracks Tech Lab
16 Move SCV To Gas
16 Factory (Naked)
16 Move SCV To Gas
17 Calldown MULE
17 Supply Depot
18 Marine
19 Stimpack
19 Marine
20 Armory
20 Move SCV To Gas
20 Barracks (Naked)
20 Move SCV To Minerals
20 Marine
21 Factory Tech Lab
21 Move SCV To Gas
21 Marine
22 Calldown Extra Supplies
22 Thor
28 Move SCV To Minerals
28 Move SCV To Minerals
28 Move SCV To Minerals
28 Marine
29 Move SCV To Minerals
29 Marine
30 Move SCV To Gas
30 Move SCV To Gas
30 Move SCV To Gas
30 Move SCV To Gas
32 Marine
33 Marine
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:18.54: 248M 191G 46E 34/ 35S
Income: 594M 215G
Buildings: 2 Refinery 2 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory 1 Armory 2 Tech Lab
Units: 20 SCV 8 Marine 1 Thor
Research: Stimpack
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Hey, I just had it create a Protoss build, and the Completion Likelihood percentage got to about 97% and then shot back down to less than one percent. Why does it do this?
Thanks,
Cornflakey
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On December 13 2010 19:26 Cornflakey wrote:
Hey, I just had it create a Protoss build, and the Completion Likelihood percentage got to about 97% and then shot back down to less than one percent. Why does it do this?
The completion likelihood is just an indicator of how confident the algorithm is that it has the best build order. It's not expected that it will ever reach 100% as the algorithm doesn't test every single combination possible. The longer the algorithm spends without making any improvement, the more likely it is that there is no improvement to make. As such, it will slowly build up, but if it does find an improvement it will reset back to 0% and slowly work up again.
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dont ever expect to find the perfect build order with this. some days ago, i had it run over night for a rather simple terran build order and after over 7 billion games, it found an improvment which improved the bo by 3 seconds.
this is a general weakness of the algorithm used, the final convergence in a region close to the gobal optimizer is very very slow and unstable. thats the price to pay for the high initial speed we achieve by the simplicity of the algorithm.
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Thanks for your help guys! I didn't expect such quick and intelligent responses. I'm liking this community more and more. Also, thanks very much CarbonTwelve for writing this app! I can't wait to see the final version. This is an invaluable asset to a newb like me.
Thanks again, guys.
~Cornflakey
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I've got this idea while contemplating build orders, trying to find out how to make okay transition to late game stages and... When I wanted to create a build order, I wanted it to take under consideration that I could've lost some forces and that I wanted to rebuild them - all the while trying to get back to my BO. Is there any way the algorithm can support such feature such as "lose forces" in a waypoint?
Thank you for reading this!
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Dakota_Fanning
Hungary2368 Posts
Hi there, I'm the author of Sc2gears.
I just wanted to let you know that I've started working on the Build order import feature (in Sc2gears). It will require the Build order in plain text format in which it will be possible to specify all significant actions like builds, trains, researches, upgrades and other use of abilities like Calldown MULE, spawn larva etc.
I will post a link when I have a specification draft of the Build order text format so you can review it and start implementing it if you're interested.
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hey Im testing the newest version 0023 and think there is a big mistake.
why does the programm build 2 pools?
i cant understand this.
because of this my bo optimizer cant get the best bo, thats for sure.
one missing option is to remove gas worker or set a final gas resource number that had to be mined.
except of this i love the programm
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On December 14 2010 04:07 Black Gun wrote:
dont ever expect to find the perfect build order with this. some days ago, i had it run over night for a rather simple terran build order and after over 7 billion games, it found an improvment which improved the bo by 3 seconds.
this is a general weakness of the algorithm used, the final convergence in a region close to the gobal optimizer is very very slow and unstable. thats the price to pay for the high initial speed we achieve by the simplicity of the algorithm.
I think this could be resolved if after some time passes, and the best solution isn't changing, the parameters of the GA could become more agressive - to crossover more of the population, to allow a bigger part of the chromosome to mutate, etc. I.e. find the best, remember it, then try to destabilize the result as we expect that a better one might be available somewhere else.
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On December 15 2010 21:04 Dakota_Fanning wrote:
Hi there, I'm the author of Sc2gears.
I just wanted to let you know that I've started working on the Build order import feature (in Sc2gears). It will require the Build order in plain text format in which it will be possible to specify all significant actions like builds, trains, researches, upgrades and other use of abilities like Calldown MULE, spawn larva etc.
I will post a link when I have a specification draft of the Build order text format so you can review it and start implementing it if you're interested.
Hi! Thanks for the info, sounds great. Have you thought about how you would implement the chrono boosts? Haploid's system specifies the unit that you want chrono boosted (and how many times), while mine specifies the building. I kind of prefer my approach as it's clearer for when the chrono boost is spread across multiple actions, but Haploid's is clearer for what gets the benefit of the boost.
Also, in theory it can be beneficial to wait for a certain criteria before making actions. Eg, Haploid's system allows setting triggers (eg, @100 gas do X, or setting a checkpoint at a time before doing something) - will you be implementing something for that? My system doesn't have any such triggers due to it being somewhat complicated to handle for the optimiser, but might be worth knowing just in case.
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On December 16 2010 00:06 SonIsBjoern wrote:
hey Im testing the newest version 0023 and think there is a big mistake.
Are you sure you've got the right program? I think you're confusing it with Evolution Chamber. My app is SCBuildOrder available here: http://code.google.com/p/scbuildorder/downloads/list
On December 16 2010 00:31 shustrik wrote:
I think this could be resolved if after some time passes, and the best solution isn't changing, the parameters of the GA could become more agressive - to crossover more of the population, to allow a bigger part of the chromosome to mutate, etc. I.e. find the best, remember it, then try to destabilize the result as we expect that a better one might be available somewhere else.
Yes, this is something that I plan to do eventually. It doesn't fit in well with the GA I wrote, which is why I haven't done it so far, but eventually I would like it to be able to adjust the parameters as it runs. Having said that, changing the mutation rate generally doesn't have a huge impact on how quickly it finds a result, so I don't think it'll be a high priority.
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Dakota_Fanning
Hungary2368 Posts
On December 16 2010 07:13 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 21:04 Dakota_Fanning wrote:
Hi there, I'm the author of Sc2gears.
I just wanted to let you know that I've started working on the Build order import feature (in Sc2gears). It will require the Build order in plain text format in which it will be possible to specify all significant actions like builds, trains, researches, upgrades and other use of abilities like Calldown MULE, spawn larva etc.
I will post a link when I have a specification draft of the Build order text format so you can review it and start implementing it if you're interested. Hi! Thanks for the info, sounds great. Have you thought about how you would implement the chrono boosts? Haploid's system specifies the unit that you want chrono boosted (and how many times), while mine specifies the building. I kind of prefer my approach as it's clearer for when the chrono boost is spread across multiple actions, but Haploid's is clearer for what gets the benefit of the boost. Also, in theory it can be beneficial to wait for a certain criteria before making actions. Eg, Haploid's system allows setting triggers (eg, @100 gas do X, or setting a checkpoint at a time before doing something) - will you be implementing something for that? My system doesn't have any such triggers due to it being somewhat complicated to handle for the optimiser, but might be worth knowing just in case.
It will be possible to specify unit, building or location targets (x,y coordinates) for actions.
But Sc2gears does not handle Chrono boost yet (in a matter of train times not being reduced).
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... Dakota_Fanning, thank you so much about looking into this. It's flat out fantastic.
The collaboration of these two programs will enable the community to refine build orders down to the incredible nitty gritty. On a personal level, I am _SOOOO_ looking forward to this.
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This really needs some options to get your units out faster and how many you want before you believe you're fine. Like I wanna do a double starpot 3x banshee + marines push into expansion but I don't have a marine out until 21 supply AFTER have made a bunker, lol.
Then weird switches liek this is just uhhh K..
23 Move SCV To Minerals
26 Move SCV To Gas
I also wish I'd be able to follow up my timing push (which I'm trying to "optimize") from a certain time where I just sweep what I have made so far and focus on what I want after going for this attack.
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EPT
