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MLG extended Series Poll - Page 52

Forum Index > SC2 General
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killerdog
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark6522 Posts
October 17 2011 03:03 GMT
#1021
I really dislike it, just because it often leads to matches being play really late in a tournament being almost forgone conclusions. I don't like that just because someone lost in pool play, we should then have a much less exciting semi finals because one player started 2-0 up just because the other had a bad day on day 1. Really ruins the excitement of the later rounds for me.
Dirtysocks
Profile Joined August 2011
Czech Republic68 Posts
October 17 2011 03:07 GMT
#1022
If I remember correctly some tournaments did not have extended series, but made it 3x BO3 which 1st BO3 was already played. Say that player A won 2-0 first one. Then player B would have to win 2x BO3 and it could be 2-4, 3-4, 4-4 or (4-5 if first one was 2-1) So if it was 2-0 player B has to win 4 games and can loose 2 games. Which is better for winner, but if it was 2-1 player B need to win one game to make it 2-2 instead winning BO3. Which is cool. So 2-0 is good for winner 2-1 favorite the looser in weird point of view.
vol_
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia1608 Posts
October 17 2011 03:21 GMT
#1023
I would rather see extended series removed and have MLG make the later rounds bo5
Jaedong gives me a deep resonance.
darklight54321
Profile Joined July 2011
United States361 Posts
October 17 2011 03:38 GMT
#1024
On October 17 2011 12:21 vol_ wrote:
I would rather see extended series removed and have MLG make the later rounds bo5


doesn't change the idea behind extended series, and would make it even worse to have extended series.
Bijan
Profile Joined October 2010
United States286 Posts
October 17 2011 03:44 GMT
#1025
Picture this scenario:

MC loses to HuK 0 - 2
MC fights his way to the finals for an extended series
HuK loses the finals, 2 - 1

If that whole series were to be looked at as a Bo5, HuK should have won. The extended series works to ensure that the winning player is always the clear victor by virtue of total sets won.
Fenrax
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States5018 Posts
October 17 2011 03:50 GMT
#1026
It is NOT fair. Imagine Football World Cup. In Group stages Brazil beats Netherlands 2-0. Netherlands wins rest on their games, though and thus they meet again in Finals. So Brazil starts the game with 2-0 lead? Would that also be fair?
babo213
Profile Joined January 2011
United States266 Posts
October 17 2011 03:51 GMT
#1027
On October 17 2011 12:44 Bijan wrote:
Picture this scenario:

MC loses to HuK 0 - 2
MC fights his way to the finals for an extended series
HuK loses the finals, 2 - 1

If that whole series were to be looked at as a Bo5, HuK should have won. The extended series works to ensure that the winning player is always the clear victor by virtue of total sets won.


That's ridiculous way to look at it imo. It's like say in the World Cup group play Brazil lost to France then they meet again France was ahead 2-0 or whatever the goal differential was. It's stupid and pointless. At most it should be a 1-0 lead in a best of 7 and the finals should be best of 5 anyway regardless.
Group play games have less pressure and importance why should the games that truly matter not be on an even footing?
Spaceneil8
Profile Joined February 2011
United States317 Posts
October 17 2011 04:56 GMT
#1028
On October 17 2011 12:51 babo213 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2011 12:44 Bijan wrote:
Picture this scenario:

MC loses to HuK 0 - 2
MC fights his way to the finals for an extended series
HuK loses the finals, 2 - 1

If that whole series were to be looked at as a Bo5, HuK should have won. The extended series works to ensure that the winning player is always the clear victor by virtue of total sets won.


That's ridiculous way to look at it imo. It's like say in the World Cup group play Brazil lost to France then they meet again France was ahead 2-0 or whatever the goal differential was. It's stupid and pointless. At most it should be a 1-0 lead in a best of 7 and the finals should be best of 5 anyway regardless.
Group play games have less pressure and importance why should the games that truly matter not be on an even footing?

The thing is that those games happen very far apart while MLG happens over a weekend. MLG's are basically one continuous play session so the previous series should be taken into account.
TheToast
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4808 Posts
October 17 2011 04:57 GMT
#1029
On October 17 2011 12:44 Bijan wrote:
Picture this scenario:

MC loses to HuK 0 - 2
MC fights his way to the finals for an extended series
HuK loses the finals, 2 - 1

If that whole series were to be looked at as a Bo5, HuK should have won. The extended series works to ensure that the winning player is always the clear victor by virtue of total sets won.


That's not how it works, in your example HuK would have won. Essentially the extended series adds a maximum of 4 extra games onto the previous bo3. In your example, if HuK beats MC 2-0 then in the final HuK only needs to pick up 2 games to win. MC has to pick up 4.

It really does make things fair as every game counts for something. But many people are saying it takes away some of the excitement from the finals, and I do believe they have a point. I really like the extended series rule, but tournament final match-up should just be a bo7 straight up IMO.

I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid.
ninjamyst
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1903 Posts
October 17 2011 05:07 GMT
#1030
On October 17 2011 13:56 Spaceneil8 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2011 12:51 babo213 wrote:
On October 17 2011 12:44 Bijan wrote:
Picture this scenario:

MC loses to HuK 0 - 2
MC fights his way to the finals for an extended series
HuK loses the finals, 2 - 1

If that whole series were to be looked at as a Bo5, HuK should have won. The extended series works to ensure that the winning player is always the clear victor by virtue of total sets won.


That's ridiculous way to look at it imo. It's like say in the World Cup group play Brazil lost to France then they meet again France was ahead 2-0 or whatever the goal differential was. It's stupid and pointless. At most it should be a 1-0 lead in a best of 7 and the finals should be best of 5 anyway regardless.
Group play games have less pressure and importance why should the games that truly matter not be on an even footing?

The thing is that those games happen very far apart while MLG happens over a weekend. MLG's are basically one continuous play session so the previous series should be taken into account.


Only true if MLG is a one day event. But the pool play started Friday and finals was Sunday. MC could have had a bad day on Friday but he still fought his way to the finals. Why should he have to suffer for it 2 days later?
Sirvantes7
Profile Joined May 2011
United States18 Posts
October 17 2011 07:33 GMT
#1031
On October 17 2011 13:57 TheToast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2011 12:44 Bijan wrote:
Picture this scenario:

MC loses to HuK 0 - 2
MC fights his way to the finals for an extended series
HuK loses the finals, 2 - 1

If that whole series were to be looked at as a Bo5, HuK should have won. The extended series works to ensure that the winning player is always the clear victor by virtue of total sets won.


That's not how it works, in your example HuK would have won. Essentially the extended series adds a maximum of 4 extra games onto the previous bo3. In your example, if HuK beats MC 2-0 then in the final HuK only needs to pick up 2 games to win. MC has to pick up 4.

It really does make things fair as every game counts for something. But many people are saying it takes away some of the excitement from the finals, and I do believe they have a point. I really like the extended series rule, but tournament final match-up should just be a bo7 straight up IMO.




Well, in "normal" double elimination tournaments, the loser bracket's winner has to defeat the winner's bracket winner in 2 best of whatever the final match is. (In MGL's case 2 Bo3s). That is the fairest possible way to do this without screwing the lowers with "extended series, and it makes sure that it is true to the double elimination scheme.

I have no clue why on earth people think that the extended series is more fair than this.
I wonder what my APM is while clearing Quasar [A]....
Oceaniax
Profile Joined June 2010
146 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 07:47:44
October 17 2011 07:42 GMT
#1032
Regardless of whether or not you think it's "fair" or not, it makes for far, far less compelling games to watch. Knowing someone is down 0-2 coming into a match just skews the match so in favor of the previous victor it just isn't very compelling to watch (MOST of the time).
Sirvantes7
Profile Joined May 2011
United States18 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 08:14:38
October 17 2011 08:13 GMT
#1033
On October 17 2011 16:42 Oceaniax wrote:
Regardless of whether or not you think it's "fair" or not, it makes for far, far less compelling games to watch. Knowing someone is down 0-2 coming into a match just skews the match so in favor of the previous victor it just isn't very compelling to watch (MOST of the time).


Well, I agree with you that I would rather watch a single elimination tournament than to deal with the whole extended series issue/bullshit.

Honestly, it should only be an issue for the grand finals, there is no reason for it to play out earlier than that.

(I honestly hope you aren't thinking that I am saying that the extended series is fair.)
I wonder what my APM is while clearing Quasar [A]....
Razith
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada431 Posts
October 17 2011 08:16 GMT
#1034
A tournament is designed to pit everyone against everyone to see who is the best. Why should one player get two tries? Extended series is what you need to win to prove you're the best as he already beat you. To get back into the finals is your own problem because you have to prove your worth being in there at all, especially if the guy you're going to face in the finals already destroyed you.
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
October 17 2011 08:23 GMT
#1035
It doesn't really matter if you can cook up graphs or calculations that shows it being fair or not. It makes for shitty series and goes against the spirit of competition that exists in regular sports. I got a feeling most of those in favor of the rule aren't that big into sports.
zul
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany5427 Posts
October 17 2011 08:37 GMT
#1036
On October 17 2011 10:54 Fenrax wrote:
It is just a stupid shitty rule. It is a) unfair and b) creates horrendously boring best-of series'.
Winner already had a giant advantage for his win in the earlier rounds and if the other player fights his way through a lower bracket he deserves equal odds again. Nothing else to say about it. It sucks. Get rid of it.

you are soo wrong. I don`t know if you watched the series of IdrA vs Boxer, but Boxers Comeback from a 0:3 (to tie it up to 3:3) was nothing short but epic. AND the rule is fair. I don`t know why people hate on this - it makes MLG special. In case you don`t see why it is fair, I will explain it.

First of all, the rule aplies for everyone. Second, Imagine a scenario between player A and player B. Player A wins 2:0 over player B in earlier stages of the playoffs and advances undefeated to the grand finals. Player B goes down to the lower/losers Bracket and wins the rest of his matches to reach the grand finals as well. Now player B wins 2:0 and therefore the tournament. How would this be fair, if both players have lost the same amout of games and are tied in games (in direct comparison). Extended series make sure, the winner of the first match has the advantage he deserves, when the opponents meet in the later stages. It does NOT produce boring matches - it is the other way around. It gives more importance to all the matches (including early ones), because you never know if you will meet each other in later stages of the tournament and therefore you better make sure to lead the extended series.
keep it deep! @zulison
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 08:49:01
October 17 2011 08:48 GMT
#1037
On October 17 2011 12:44 Bijan wrote:
Picture this scenario:

MC loses to HuK 0 - 2
MC fights his way to the finals for an extended series
HuK loses the finals, 2 - 1

If that whole series were to be looked at as a Bo5, HuK should have won. The extended series works to ensure that the winning player is always the clear victor by virtue of total sets won.


The part where you say "if that was a BO5 HuK would have won" is the part that doesn't make sense about this argument. Because it isn't a BO5. It's a BO3. Why would you look at a previous series which is already over? You're referring to past results and counting them twice.

What happens in REALITY is that HuK won 1 series in pool play, and MC won 1 series in the finals. And it makes sense that winning in the finals will be more important... because it's the fucking finals.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 08:52:42
October 17 2011 08:51 GMT
#1038
On October 17 2011 16:33 Sirvantes7 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2011 13:57 TheToast wrote:
On October 17 2011 12:44 Bijan wrote:
Picture this scenario:

MC loses to HuK 0 - 2
MC fights his way to the finals for an extended series
HuK loses the finals, 2 - 1

If that whole series were to be looked at as a Bo5, HuK should have won. The extended series works to ensure that the winning player is always the clear victor by virtue of total sets won.


That's not how it works, in your example HuK would have won. Essentially the extended series adds a maximum of 4 extra games onto the previous bo3. In your example, if HuK beats MC 2-0 then in the final HuK only needs to pick up 2 games to win. MC has to pick up 4.

It really does make things fair as every game counts for something. But many people are saying it takes away some of the excitement from the finals, and I do believe they have a point. I really like the extended series rule, but tournament final match-up should just be a bo7 straight up IMO.




Well, in "normal" double elimination tournaments, the loser bracket's winner has to defeat the winner's bracket winner in 2 best of whatever the final match is. (In MGL's case 2 Bo3s). That is the fairest possible way to do this without screwing the lowers with "extended series, and it makes sure that it is true to the double elimination scheme.

I have no clue why on earth people think that the extended series is more fair than this.


Yea I don't get why people complain about "extended series" in the finals. It actually helps the guy coming from lower bracket since in a normal Double elim he would have to win 2xBo3 but since he lost 1-2 he only has to win 3 games where as winner still has to win 2. Thus it gives the advantage to the guy that lost 1-2 relative to a normal double elim.


On October 17 2011 17:48 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2011 12:44 Bijan wrote:
Picture this scenario:

MC loses to HuK 0 - 2
MC fights his way to the finals for an extended series
HuK loses the finals, 2 - 1

If that whole series were to be looked at as a Bo5, HuK should have won. The extended series works to ensure that the winning player is always the clear victor by virtue of total sets won.


The part where you say "if that was a BO5 HuK would have won" is the part that doesn't make sense about this argument. Because it isn't a BO5. It's a BO3. Why would you look at a previous series which is already over? You're referring to past results and counting them twice.

What happens in REALITY is that HuK won 1 series in pool play, and MC won 1 series in the finals. And it makes sense that winning in the finals will be more important... because it's the fucking finals.


The tournament is double elim. Even without extended series Huk would not have lost if he lost 2-1 in the first Bo3 there would have been a second Bo3. Do people just not understand how Double elim works?
Alvar
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden61 Posts
October 17 2011 08:53 GMT
#1039
On October 17 2011 17:37 zul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2011 10:54 Fenrax wrote:
It is just a stupid shitty rule. It is a) unfair and b) creates horrendously boring best-of series'.
Winner already had a giant advantage for his win in the earlier rounds and if the other player fights his way through a lower bracket he deserves equal odds again. Nothing else to say about it. It sucks. Get rid of it.

you are soo wrong. I don`t know if you watched the series of IdrA vs Boxer, but Boxers Comeback from a 0:3 (to tie it up to 3:3) was nothing short but epic. AND the rule is fair. I don`t know why people hate on this - it makes MLG special. In case you don`t see why it is fair, I will explain it.

First of all, the rule aplies for everyone. Second, Imagine a scenario between player A and player B. Player A wins 2:0 over player B in earlier stages of the playoffs and advances undefeated to the grand finals. Player B goes down to the lower/losers Bracket and wins the rest of his matches to reach the grand finals as well. Now player B wins 2:0 and therefore the tournament. How would this be fair, if both players have lost the same amout of games and are tied in games (in direct comparison). Extended series make sure, the winner of the first match has the advantage he deserves, when the opponents meet in the later stages. It does NOT produce boring matches - it is the other way around. It gives more importance to all the matches (including early ones), because you never know if you will meet each other in later stages of the tournament and therefore you better make sure to lead the extended series.

In this scenario both players would not have won the same amount of games. In MLG player B would have played a shitload of more games to even get to the finals.

Besides, people are not saying it should then be a BO3 finals, it should be a BO7 or something like that with WB having a 1-0 advantage.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
October 17 2011 09:07 GMT
#1040
On October 17 2011 17:37 zul wrote:
First of all, the rule aplies for everyone. Second, Imagine a scenario between player A and player B. Player A wins 2:0 over player B in earlier stages of the playoffs and advances undefeated to the grand finals. Player B goes down to the lower/losers Bracket and wins the rest of his matches to reach the grand finals as well. Now player B wins 2:0 and therefore the tournament. How would this be fair, if both players have lost the same amout of games and are tied in games (in direct comparison).


No they aren't tied.

Player B won 2 games in the finals. Player A won 0 games in the finals. Player B won the finals. Player B won the tournament. This is how EVERY tournament works (that has pool play). Are you saying ALL other tournaments are "unfair"?

MLG tells you that you should look at results of previous series to determine fairness. If you're looking at results of series that are already over in pool play, why not look at results between A and B in past MLGs as well? I mean they can just decide to count ANYTHING out of the blue and calculate the result like that, and make a case for how it's "fair" because some numbers add up somehow.

It's a completely arbitrary, made up out of nowhere rule because somebody thought it's a "cool idea" or something.
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