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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
North America – Diamond
Korea – Diamond
Europe – Diamond
SEA – Diamond
Pretty interesting to see how different each region is | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Thanks for posting  | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
MAP STATISTICS PLEASE. | ||
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AyJay
1515 Posts
Incoming balance discussions. User was warned for this post edit: GOD DAM IT. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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space_yes
United States548 Posts
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:24 Dommk wrote: Click for Full blog post Pretty interesting to see how different each region is The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. | ||
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NearPerfection
232 Posts
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Kakera
United States419 Posts
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Anarion55
United States72 Posts
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
I was actually thinking that in general that it was T>P in NA and P>T in korea, but it seems like it's actually the other way around :p it's actually really weird how the PvT mu is so different in general numbers from region to region, while the other Mu's have smaller differences. I mean from a 45-48% loss for Protoss in EU/kor to a 56,5% win for protoss in the US, that's a fairly big difference. | ||
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Viruuus
Germany451 Posts
Its funny how PvT stats are totally going in differnt directions on different servers | ||
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dala
Sweden477 Posts
The SEA server is smaller than the other and will have larger deviations than the rest. | ||
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NearPerfection
232 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:38 Icx wrote: hm interesting, I was actually thinking that in general that it was T>P in NA and P>T in korea, but it seems like it's actually the other way around :p it's actually really weird how the PvT mu is so different in general numbers from region to region, while the other Mu's have smaller differences. I mean from a 45-48% loss for Protoss in EU/kor to a 56,5% win for protoss in the US, that's a fairly big difference. Thats because more likely than not this stats are not limited to a single league, so even if Diamond Protoss had 44.9% win rate vs Terran, so long as Silver, Bronze, Platinum have 50-55% all of a sudden it will magically look like Protoss is OP. These stats are pooled from noobs and can tell nothing about game balance... sigh. Edit: looks to be diamond only misread OP, there is still a huge skill cap in diamond league. | ||
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VikingKong
China509 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. Rofl, here comes the balance squad... Yeah, the community definitely suspected zerg op...and of course these stats are meaningful and confirm it... | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:40 NearPerfection wrote: Thats because more likely than not this stats are not limited to a single league, so even if Diamond Protoss had 44.9% win rate vs Terran, so long as Silver, Bronze, Platinum have 50-55% all of a sudden it will magically look like Protoss is OP. These stats are pooled from noobs and can tell nothing about game balance... sigh. it says it's all from diamond. That said, these numbers have almost nothing to do with game balance. I think it's absurd that they release it to try to prove anything. | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
And i'm not trying to say "omg this MU is imba, fix it", I just made a remark that it is interesting that the MU is so different in each region. Seriously, yes "imba" talk is annoying, but people get on their horse way to quick nowadays :/ | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. OH really? Your counting the SEA which most go to US now. tvz in Europe/Korea favor terran so tvz looks balanced. So the only MU that "looks" like zerg is favored in is protoss. Definitely shows how "imba" zerg is lmao. Not like these stats matter anyway as it counts ALL of Diamond so this again shows nothing ^^. | ||
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. lol The stats don't show that at all. The stats show that imbalance for every matchup in one region is balanced by the opposite imbalance in another region. | ||
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space_yes
United States548 Posts
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Kinky
United States4126 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: So yet again Blizzard releases more percentages with no context... I don't understand why they do this. One thing I've noticed is that in the different regions players like and dislike different maps. Some map specific data would be nice or data on the maps downvoted per region WITH the win percentages. Just seeing a bunch of %'s doesnt really tell us anything. And yet they keep doing it. They might be doing it to promote discussion if anything. I don't see any other reason for it :/ | ||
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Shuffleus
Australia764 Posts
Thanks for posting! | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:47 MooiSh wrote: I think it will be really interesting to see the shift PvZ will take withing the next few months as protoss' figure out the new timings in adapted builds. I think so too. It is quite amazing, before this patch PvZ was favored towards Protoss (55%) on NA, but since then it has dropped by 7%! The roach change had a pretty big effect on Toss. But I do agree about the timings part. Up until today I was opening stargate every game because I couldn't handle muta/ling, but after starting a thread, I was informed about a 6gate timing that hits just as mutas pop which works REALLY well. But not sure what if there are any timings that you can exploit to combat mass roaches  | ||
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AyJay
1515 Posts
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
ie: PvT Protoss initially has a slight advantage Then terran gets their key upgrades and becomes very strong Then protoss gets storm and/or colossus and the balance switches again to (imo) a slight protoss advantage. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
If they can include only top200 from each region somehow... | ||
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tehV
28 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:58 Inori wrote: These stats mean nothing because they take whole Diamond into account, along with the 1000 newbies and etc. A much better situation report would be a graph like this http://sc2ranks.com/stats/race/all/1 and look at stats above 2000. I agree, though to be even better, they would have the matchup %s as functions of hidden skill rating. i.e. let P_Z(x) be the percent of wins for protoss against zerg at skill rating x. Then graph P_Z(x), its possible that it stays pretty stable for all of diamond. I'd bet against that though, more likely protoss wins less as skill rating increases. Just picking a random threshold of 2000 points is roughly as non-enlightening as blizzard picking diamond leage as a threshold. Really I just want some pretty graphs so I can QQ in style. | ||
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Phanekim
United States777 Posts
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
if these stats show anything it shows that TvP can be random as shit and they should take a nice deep look in to that matchup | ||
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:24 Dommk wrote: Click for Full blog post Pretty interesting to see how different each region is THIS. can only mean one thing. Protoss are UP in KOREA. HuK, NOOOOO It's imba there STAY AWAYYYY. On a serious note, it points to why Protoss is doing bad in GSL but isn't the causing factor imo. LOL @ how slow NA and SEA Terrans are.. | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:42 fdsdfg wrote: That said, these numbers have almost nothing to do with game balance. I think it's absurd that they release it to try to prove anything. Exactly. Blizzard really needs to stop looking so much at statistics and numbers and start looking at the actual game. | ||
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let_FLY
80 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. uhh, you're REALLY upset about ~2%? i mean yeah pure 50's would look better but so would world peace. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: I dislike these stats purely because some matchups just have dramatic balance swings DURING the game. ie: PvT Protoss initially has a slight advantage Then terran gets their key upgrades and becomes very strong Then protoss gets storm and/or colossus and the balance switches again to (imo) a slight protoss advantage. Heh,I beg to differ. At least the way the the Devs were pitching it at Blizzcon, Terran has the advantage until it gets late into the game where Protoss can tech to storm, but it is pretty difficult, even Dustin Browder was commenting on how hard it was for Protoss to get Storm when he was casting along side Day[9]. It is very difficult to get to the point of getting Storm, at least for me I only ever get to tech to storm once every 5-6 games. But then you have games like Socke vs Jinro on DO during MLG, where Toss went for Storm first but it didn't even seem like he had any advantage at all. | ||
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:18 5unrise wrote: I think these stats are fine, maybe Terran could use a little buff (e.g. removes depot before rax requirement), but all matchups are pretty well balanced Terran needing a buff? If we're looking at statistics, mainly look at Koreas ones, that's where most strats come from and contribute a lot to the metagame that will eventually follow to the other servers. T is fine. P doesn't look very good. | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:23 QuantumTheory wrote: Terran needing a buff? If we're looking at statistics, mainly look at Koreas ones, that's where most strats come from and contribute a lot to the metagame that will eventually follow to the other servers. T is fine. P doesn't look very good. I disagree, since there are are progaming teams very much everywhere for sc2, there is no reason to put greater weight on Korea. It's not like this is bw where Korea just dominates. There really isn't much of skill gap between Korea and Europe, for example. Just because toss is doing well in Korea doesnt mean toss is UP, since clearly European and NA players have different experiences, and my ladder experiences tell me that toss is very strong if the player makes good decisions. If anything toss should be watched carefully since they are too strong in lower level leagues. Statistics overall show that protoss is fine, Terran is at more of a disadvantage. Disclaimer: I play zerg | ||
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bigjenk
United States1543 Posts
Seems like the average t in na is lagging behind in exploiting timings and drops against p so far. | ||
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Noterist
13 Posts
I agree with nearly everyone else though, we can't gather anything from these statistics alone. We'd need the entire suite of numbers and tools available to blizzard to get a good idea of how the game looks. Also, I'm betting that without a patch those numbers will still change quite drastically from simple shifts in the metagame. | ||
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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Koh
United Kingdom111 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: I dislike these stats purely because some matchups just have dramatic balance swings DURING the game. ie: PvT Protoss initially has a slight advantage Then terran gets their key upgrades and becomes very strong Then protoss gets storm and/or colossus and the balance switches again to (imo) a slight protoss advantage. The only valid criticism of these statistics so far is this one. However, the differences in area results may just highlight the prevalence of superior tactics in that region, and not basic game unfairness. What Blizzard has on its hands is international diplomacy... with each party being from a different planet and each party feeling that they have an unfair disadvantage. | ||
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
The stats are meaningless, why release them and encourage more balance whining. God damnit blizzard  I am mid diamond and I am not good and neither is anyone at my skill level. dont balance the game around diamond, balance around masters/grand masters leagues. | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:33 Sniffy wrote: Why do they do this -.- The stats are meaningless, why release them and encourage more balance whining. God damnit blizzard I think it will shut the whining up to be honest... since the game is pretty well balanced at around 50% | ||
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:34 5unrise wrote: I think it will shut the whining up to be honest... since the game is pretty well balanced at around 50% I hope you are right | ||
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Elwar
953 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:28 5unrise wrote: I disagree, since there are are progaming teams very much everywhere for sc2, there is no reason to put greater weight on Korea. It's not like this is bw where Korea just dominates. There really isn't much of skill gap between Korea and Europe, for example. Just because toss is doing well in Korea doesnt mean toss is UP, since clearly European and NA players have different experiences, and my ladder experiences tell me that toss is very strong if the player makes good decisions. If anything toss should be watched carefully since they are too strong in lower level leagues. Statistics overall show that protoss is fine, Terran is at more of a disadvantage. Disclaimer: I play zerg I disagree. Korea should have more weight seeing how, and this is just about universally accepted: Korea has a higher skill level. It is like bw wher Korea dominates there is a skill gap between Europe and Korea for example DIFFERENT winrates. You know why there's different winrates? The higherskilled players (Koreans, generally) find out most strats first and push races to the limit. Why is there such varying winrates from Korea to, for example SEA or NA? Because the metagame is completely different. I did not say protoss is UP and yes, overall Protoss maybe doing fine but are they doing fine where it counts? | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
Clearly the better strategy atm is to go for all in aggressive builds and beat the protoss before they can get to mid game. oh yeah and roaches are insanely cheap for how much they rape protoss ground armies. | ||
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AyJay
1515 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:18 5unrise wrote: I think these stats are fine, maybe Terran could use a little buff (e.g. removes depot before rax requirement), but all matchups are pretty well balanced Removing rax be4 depot will fuck up ZvT and TvT. | ||
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DImported
Australia149 Posts
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:42 fdsdfg wrote: it says it's all from diamond. That said, these numbers have almost nothing to do with game balance. I think it's absurd that they release it to try to prove anything. But... they didn't use it to prove anything. They just said, "here's some stats" and then gave us some stats. They didn't tell us what conclusions they draw from it, nor did they tell us what they were planning to do about any of these numbers. They just gave us some stats. | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:38 QuantumTheory wrote: I disagree. Korea should have more weight seeing how, and this is just about universally accepted: Korea has a higher skill level. It is like bw wher Korea dominates there is a skill gap between Europe and Korea for example DIFFERENT winrates. You know why there's different winrates? The higherskilled players (Koreans, generally) find out most strats first and push races to the limit. Why is there such varying winrates from Korea to, for example SEA or NA? Because the metagame is completely different. I did not say protoss is UP and yes, overall Protoss maybe doing fine but are they doing fine where it counts? If this was broodwar then it is universally accepted. At this point what you said has no empirical backing. Remember blizzcon winner was a Chinese, not a Korean. Higher skilled players can come from anywhere at this point, and so winrates from each region must be taken into account. In any case, even if you only compare Korea, which is a wrong approach, you will see that protoss winrate against other races are close to 50% to the extent that the differential is negligible. Toss is fine. | ||
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risa
Finland11 Posts
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StarDrive
90 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:42 5unrise wrote: If this was broodwar then it is universally accepted. At this point what you said has no empirical backing. Remember blizzcon winner was a Chinese, not a Korean. Higher skilled players can come from anywhere at this point, and so winrates from each region must be taken into account. In any case, even if you only compare Korea, which is a wrong approach, you will see that protoss winrate against other races are close to 50% to the extent that the differential is negligible. Toss is fine. At Blizzcon David Kim said they put more weight on Korea because it tends to be where new metagame changing strats emerge from and a leading indicator of balance. Also the skill level there is higher overall. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:23 Dommk wrote: Heh,I beg to differ. At least the way the the Devs were pitching it at Blizzcon, Terran has the advantage until it gets late into the game where Protoss can tech to storm, but it is pretty difficult, even Dustin Browder was commenting on how hard it was for Protoss to get Storm when he was casting along side Day[9]. It is very difficult to get to the point of getting Storm, at least for me I only ever get to tech to storm once every 5-6 games. But then you have games like Socke vs Jinro on DO during MLG, where Toss went for Storm first but it didn't even seem like he had any advantage at all. 4 warpgate protoss has a very slight advantage over terran, which is why terran is forced to turtle in the early game. Once terran gets their upgrades and can move out is when protoss is forced to defend because of the terran advantage. This is when the struggle begins for protoss to just live until he gets colossus or storm. We are basically saying the same thing though... so I dont really see why you disagree with me (except at the end where you reference socke vs jinro). | ||
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:42 5unrise wrote: If this was broodwar then it is universally accepted. At this point what you said has no empirical backing. Remember blizzcon winner was a Chinese, not a Korean. Higher skilled players can come from anywhere at this point, and so winrates from each region must be taken into account. In any case, even if you only compare Korea, which is a wrong approach, you will see that protoss winrate against other races are close to 50% to the extent that the differential is negligible. Toss is fine. Last time I checked, NEXGenius was Korean.. I completely agree that higher skilled players can come from anywhere, but you are forgetting the ratio of higher skilled Koreans (I'm talking top 0.5%) in relation to foreigners. At the very least it's equal (It isn't) Meaning Koreans DO have more weight as far as statistics go. Toss is doing fine anywhere outside of Korea where the metagame is different, you must understand that given time the current strats will move over to the other servers and the current korean % will start looking like everyone elses. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:42 5unrise wrote: If this was broodwar then it is universally accepted. At this point what you said has no empirical backing. Remember blizzcon winner was a Chinese, not a Korean. Higher skilled players can come from anywhere at this point, and so winrates from each region must be taken into account. In any case, even if you only compare Korea, which is a wrong approach, you will see that protoss winrate against other races are close to 50% to the extent that the differential is negligible. Toss is fine. I thought NEXGenius was korean and loner was the chinese? NEXGenius won blizzcon >.> EDIT: Koreans are better because they have a better environment to practice in. They have lots of people to talk about strategies in a 1 on 1 setting, they have coaches, they have more hours of training, they just have an overall better way to get better at the game. | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:47 TheRabidDeer wrote: I thought NEXGenius was korean and loner was the chinese? NEXGenius won blizzcon >.> oops sorry I was thinking of the loner vs sen match, disregard that, was silly | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
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MICHELLE
Korea (South)199 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. get out | ||
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:47 TheRabidDeer wrote: I thought NEXGenius was korean and loner was the chinese? NEXGenius won blizzcon >.> EDIT: Koreans are better because they have a better environment to practice in. They have lots of people to talk about strategies in a 1 on 1 setting, they have coaches, they have more hours of training, they just have an overall better way to get better at the game. Very true. In actual fact, hardly anything has changed since BW. Korea has always been a better environment to improve in. Hence why so many pros go over there. However, having saying that e-sports has grown in the foreigner scene so we are catching up, but the skill gap is still there. Don't be blinded by foreigners vs foreigners and thinking they're on the same level as Koreans, most, are not. | ||
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Kraznaya
United States3711 Posts
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ensis
Germany340 Posts
the top 200 are way more helpfull. and the most helpfull stats are those showing the current win% in tournaments provided by teamliquid users. | ||
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dolpiff
France300 Posts
still there is a biiig variation for PVT , from 45,3 to 56.5 oO | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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Titilisk
96 Posts
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Mienio
Poland40 Posts
PvT 51,25% PvZ 47,975% TvZ 50,35% | ||
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Asur
64 Posts
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On November 07 2010 19:02 darmousseh wrote: Idra said earlier today there is only 1 zerg in EU which would make sense how a zerg is only winning 49% in zvp. Protoss really can't deal well with hyrdas and roaches until midgame,but it usually doesn't get far enough. Plus mutas are the bane of a protosses existence. yes, and Idra obviously meant that there is only one Zerg in the entire diamond population. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On November 07 2010 19:02 darmousseh wrote: Idra said earlier today there is only 1 zerg in EU which would make sense how a zerg is only winning 49% in zvp. Protoss really can't deal well with hyrdas and roaches until midgame,but it usually doesn't get far enough. Plus mutas are the bane of a protosses existence. If what you say were true we would probably see much larger than a ~2% difference in win/loss... | ||
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xzidez
Sweden147 Posts
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xiaofan
United States513 Posts
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. i wonder what the %s before all the fancy complicated math are | ||
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Nixda
119 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:29 AyJay wrote: Oh no. WHY BLIZZARD?!?! WHY???? Incoming balance discussions. Really ? With numbers like (Europe)PvT - 45.3% versus (North America)PvT - 56.5% I think the last thing this can inspire is a racial balance discussion. This might explain why players on the boards *feel* for their races to be more unbalanced than they are. A Euro Toss and a NA Terran will probably both feel their races to be at a disadvantage in the PvT matchup, but what these numbers really seem to imply to me is that on each server, one side seems a bit further ahead in developing successful strategies for this particular matchup. | ||
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DImported
Australia149 Posts
On November 07 2010 19:16 xiaofan wrote: "What's an adjusted win percentage? Well, while the math behind calculating an adjusted win percentage is extremely complex, an adjusted win percentage can be summed up as the 'true' win percentage of a given race, produced by removing the skewing effects of the matchmaker and factoring in player skill." riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. i wonder what the %s before all the fancy complicated math are It would be irrelevent because it doesn't take into account a player's skill level. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On November 07 2010 19:16 xiaofan wrote: "What's an adjusted win percentage? Well, while the math behind calculating an adjusted win percentage is extremely complex, an adjusted win percentage can be summed up as the 'true' win percentage of a given race, produced by removing the skewing effects of the matchmaker and factoring in player skill." riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. i wonder what the %s before all the fancy complicated math are Ok, I'll tell you: 49-51%, because of the matchmaker. They showed these stats at Blizzcon. Take your conspiracy nonsense somewhere else. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. I disagree , SEA diamond most of the players have moved over to NA - the sample size is too small for SEA diamond to draw any conclusions from. | ||
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Luvz
Norway356 Posts
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:33 blade55555 wrote: I really wish they released these back before the first balance patch. Would have been interesting to see tvz win %. i'd say it's pretty ballanced looking at those numbers when it doesn't excede 45%-55% margin I'd say things are pretty much ballanced | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
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osten
Sweden316 Posts
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:23 Dommk wrote: Heh,I beg to differ. At least the way the the Devs were pitching it at Blizzcon, Terran has the advantage until it gets late into the game where Protoss can tech to storm, but it is pretty difficult, even Dustin Browder was commenting on how hard it was for Protoss to get Storm when he was casting along side Day[9]. It is very difficult to get to the point of getting Storm, at least for me I only ever get to tech to storm once every 5-6 games. But then you have games like Socke vs Jinro on DO during MLG, where Toss went for Storm first but it didn't even seem like he had any advantage at all. That's because he was at an economic disadvantage all game. Jinro was 1 base up the whole game. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On November 07 2010 19:54 osten wrote: Well this is fine, these statistics are not specific enough to use for anything, I hope you all understand that. On the other hand, statistics per map, that would actually be interresting and worth discussing a little. I would rather see game length win statistics. ie: 5 minute games have protoss ahead of terran, 10 minute games have terran ahead of protoss, 20 minute games have protoss ahead of terran etc etc (maybe in smaller increments). | ||
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Zakka
Netherlands762 Posts
On November 07 2010 19:51 Zaros wrote: Come on protoss buff They are actually looking into nerfing protoss... Nothing definite but keep your fingers crossed. Blizzard thinks psi storm is op lol. | ||
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Krychek
United States172 Posts
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TzTz
Germany511 Posts
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
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Yukidasu
Australia125 Posts
I don't think these show much on their own, but they are supporting evidence that there's no huge imbalances which span all of diamond league level play. | ||
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
However, it is interesting to see the distribution. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
On November 07 2010 20:01 Zakka wrote: They are actually looking into nerfing protoss... Nothing definite but keep your fingers crossed. Blizzard thinks psi storm is op lol. are you joking? seriously storm ain't all that great , compare it to fungal for instance | ||
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abrasion
Australia722 Posts
On November 07 2010 18:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: I dislike these stats purely because some matchups just have dramatic balance swings DURING the game. ie: PvT Protoss initially has a slight advantage Pardon? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Until stim finishes and mules are rolling, the chrono boost mechanic increase's P's initial income and makes them stronger. Once stim is done with conc shells T dominates early game until colossus and it would seem they are better lategame with storm but painusers lategame begs to differ. P.S As a european zerg I am not imbalanced!! My opinion is well rounded and unbiased from now on. | ||
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abrasion
Australia722 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
this is the only thing worth discussing: PvT - 56.5% PvT - 45.3% What do NA players do so differently then EU players, that gap is huge | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
We are so few and bad thats just better to hide us from the rest of the world, right Blizzard? :/ | ||
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Kraznaya
United States3711 Posts
On November 07 2010 22:10 fabiano wrote: I love how everybody just ignore LA servers! We are so few and bad thats just better to hide us from the rest of the world, right Blizzard? :/ The play on the LA servers can't really be called "diamond" level :p | ||
Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
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Supanova7G
United Kingdom13 Posts
On November 07 2010 22:07 Geo.Rion wrote: i dont know if im suppoused to laugh or cry reading these comments here. Ppl go insane over statistics this is the only thing worth discussing: PvT - 56.5% PvT - 45.3% What do NA players do so differently then EU players, that gap is huge I think in the EU protoss suffer from more early pressure from terran. In my experience early timing pushes with bio are extremely popular which slows the protoss from acquiring it's deathball/wins outright. | ||
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leecH
Germany385 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:41 VikingKong wrote: Rofl, here comes the balance squad... Yeah, the community definitely suspected zerg op...and of course these stats are meaningful and confirm it... says the zerg player  guess the reason why zerg was buffed? OT: i dont see why those stats are useless. i dont take the time to compare them to older ones but imagine you work on the game and you sure want every bit of information to see how maybe the latest patch changed things. its a feedback for them. dont deny this fact. and they sharing it with you! what a bunch of stupid selfish bastards, huh? and rely only on pro gamers would not be a very good idea, would it? or you guys think that every pro says "nah my race is fine but please buff the other 2". its rare that a gamecompany gives insight in what they do or think. but then bitching about it is ridiculous. prefer blizzard acting like elitists give you no information until the patch hits your faces? you guys would be the first that then spamm these forums "how those idiots balance the game". | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
Really should include SOME sort of map data, but I'm sure they keep they info to themselves, for whatever reason. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
On November 07 2010 22:12 Kraznaya wrote: The play on the LA servers can't really be called "diamond" level :p Can't really deny haha | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
When they have a league higher than diamond I'll be interested to see the win percentages | ||
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OverKiLL.
United States199 Posts
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kataa
United Kingdom384 Posts
The races are all looking pretty balanced, what we need now is some improvements on map balance. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On November 07 2010 22:07 Geo.Rion wrote: i dont know if im suppoused to laugh or cry reading these comments here. Ppl go insane over statistics this is the only thing worth discussing: PvT - 56.5% PvT - 45.3% What do NA players do so differently then EU players, that gap is huge Not to start a flame war or anything but I think NA has generally better Protoss players. HuK and KiwiKaki said it themselves at the first MLG - maybe as a joke, or just in fun, that they believed the EU server had better players overall (as they both have accounts on NA and EU), but they believed the NA server definitely had better Protoss players. Socke, MaNa, HasuObs, White-Ra, and Naniwa are definitely good. Although I think I'd have to agree that NA has a bit of a stronger line-up, despite a lot of Protoss players in NA are unknown or not given nearly enough credit. TT1 and Axslav are two examples of really great players that just don't get the credit they deserve due to some lackluster tournament performances. Despite that they've torn the ladder up, etc etc. | ||
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. they said everything 5% and under is fine. In other words, Z is balanced in all 4 o.O, Maybe slightly OP in SEA vs Toss | ||
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Seraph.yongweihua
Canada224 Posts
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Luvz
Norway356 Posts
On November 07 2010 Geo.Rion wrote: i dont know if im suppoused to laugh or cry reading these comments here. Ppl go insane over statistics this is the only thing worth discussing: PvT - 56.5% PvT - 45.3% What do NA players do so differently then EU players, that gap is huge EU has terran's that use vikings? | ||
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Seraph.yongweihua
Canada224 Posts
On November 07 2010 22:55 leveller wrote: Interesting for me to know that in US protoss are favoured in TvP but in EU its terrans... I wonder why that is? Might be because Americans like to turtle up and macro while the Europeans are extremely aggressive and micro. Protoss gets stronger the longer the game goes on than terran so these European terrans are probably just winning their matches sooner. | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
PvT: 51.25% PvZ: 47.975% TvZ: 50.35% Brood War like balance where balanced is supposed to be P > T > Z > P | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. Yeah that .9% is real indictive of serious balance problems. | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
The way ladder works, when you win you play stronger opponents and when you lose you play weaker opponents. Add to this the huge range of skill found in diamond and you basically get a win rate that that should be 50% for almost each player (like it is). That being said, it's interesting how some matchups are more favored in some servers than others. Also, buff Zerg in ZvP plz | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On November 07 2010 23:05 Seraph.yongweihua wrote: Might be because Americans like to turtle up and macro while the Europeans are extremely aggressive and micro. Protoss gets stronger the longer the game goes on than terran so these European terrans are probably just winning their matches sooner. Na Europeans play more harass oriented. It's generally Korean players that do the get in your face aggression from the onset | ||
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MegaBUD
Canada179 Posts
Guess a lot of my fellow terran were using reaper rush most of the time.... /sadface | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On November 07 2010 22:07 Geo.Rion wrote: i dont know if im suppoused to laugh or cry reading these comments here. Ppl go insane over statistics this is the only thing worth discussing: PvT - 56.5% PvT - 45.3% What do NA players do so differently then EU players, that gap is huge Well first of all remember that winrate against Zerg affects the "skill" measurement so the stats aren't that simplistic. What's interesting is that Korea is in the middle. Since Korea usually leads the trend (according to Blizzard) are they actually behind one of the other regions? Are NA Protoss players better than Korean Protoss players? Having watched the GSL that might actually be true. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
Wohohohoho. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
You know a matchup might have a serious problem overall but if the people on the losing side downvote their 3 worst maps at a higher rate than it might mess things up. I think instead of changing things so quickly, blizzard should work on balancing the maps we have and coming up with new maps that are a bit better or at least on par with some of the better ones they have now (e.g. metalopolis). | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On November 07 2010 23:13 udgnim wrote: don't know if anyone has done this yet, but average of all 4 regions is the following: PvT: 51.25% PvZ: 47.975% TvZ: 50.35% Brood War like balance where balanced is supposed to be P > T > Z > P This is so wrong. You cannot just add those numbers and divide by 4, because the number of diamond players in each region differs. We would need to know how many players there are and weight them different while getting the average. Example to illustrate my point in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Region 1: 1 player of each race PvT: 100% PvZ: 0% TvZ: 100% Region 2: 1000 players of each race PvT: 50% PvZ: 50% TvZ: 50% According to you logic it would mean: PvT: 75% PvZ: 25% TvZ: 75% | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On November 07 2010 23:59 Zocat wrote: This is so wrong. You cannot just add those numbers and divide by 4, because the number of diamond players in each region differs. We would need to know how many players there are and weight them different while getting the average. Example to illustrate my point in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Region 1: 1 player of each race PvT: 100% PvZ: 0% TvZ: 100% Region 2: 1000 players of each race PvT: 50% PvZ: 50% TvZ: 50% According to you logic it would mean: PvT: 75% PvZ: 25% TvZ: 75% It is posts like these that make me feel so disappointed in myself for not passing college math. | ||
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Seraph.yongweihua
Canada224 Posts
On November 07 2010 23:43 Klive5ive wrote: Well first of all remember that winrate against Zerg affects the "skill" measurement so the stats aren't that simplistic. What's interesting is that Korea is in the middle. Since Korea usually leads the trend (according to Blizzard) are they actually behind one of the other regions? Are NA Protoss players better than Korean Protoss players? Having watched the GSL that might actually be true. That's why we're exporting Huk there. to teach the Koreans how to play. | ||
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
Blizzard usually balances on other measures, not on pure hard numbers. | ||
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lurkman
Sweden23 Posts
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kidcrash89
198 Posts
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Black.
Brazil72 Posts
I mean, it is a nice start that things seem to not be hugely unbalanced. | ||
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cuppatea
United Kingdom1401 Posts
On November 07 2010 23:43 Klive5ive wrote: Well first of all remember that winrate against Zerg affects the "skill" measurement so the stats aren't that simplistic. What's interesting is that Korea is in the middle. Since Korea usually leads the trend (according to Blizzard) are they actually behind one of the other regions? Are NA Protoss players better than Korean Protoss players? Having watched the GSL that might actually be true. Having watched Blizzcon it probably isn't. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9366 Posts
On November 08 2010 00:01 SCC-Faust wrote: It is posts like these that make me feel so disappointed in myself for not passing college math. | ||
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
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Grend
1600 Posts
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
If the system is looking for 50% winrate for you, how much more irrelevant can these statistics be? Why not at least post map statistics? Or the numbers of players taken into account? Or the average time for a game in each match up? | ||
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TheDna
Germany577 Posts
This doesn't say much tbh :/ | ||
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wishbones
Canada2600 Posts
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craz3d
Bulgaria856 Posts
On November 08 2010 00:01 Seraph.yongweihua wrote: That's why we're exporting Huk there. to teach the Koreans how to play. Good one:D I for one am excited to see how Huk will do in korea. | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
On November 07 2010 23:59 Zocat wrote: This is so wrong. You cannot just add those numbers and divide by 4, because the number of diamond players in each region differs. We would need to know how many players there are and weight them different while getting the average. Example to illustrate my point in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Region 1: 1 player of each race PvT: 100% PvZ: 0% TvZ: 100% Region 2: 1000 players of each race PvT: 50% PvZ: 50% TvZ: 50% According to you logic it would mean: PvT: 75% PvZ: 25% TvZ: 75% I'd love to do a weighted average but I have no idea how the population numbers compare in each region, so it's either do an average of all 4 regions or focus on the Korean statistics. /shrug | ||
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
On November 08 2010 00:44 TheDna wrote: They should only release the top 3-10% of diamond games. The rest is like old bronze league anyways.. This doesn't say much tbh :/ It's Diamond only o.O | ||
ScarletKnight
United States691 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
Overall I think that Korea does show the most balance significance because they have a much more stacked diamond league. But I would be very interested in seeing how low-mid-high diamond matchups compare to eachother! | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
For instance about the PvZ 47% win-ratio. It's most likely 50-50 in low diamond and 40-60 at the highest diamond league (judging at the sc2ranks statistics which show more and more zergs and less and less protoss as the point increases) but as most of the players are at a low level (gaussian distribution) the real balance of the game is obscured by the bad Zerg players who have no idea of how to beat a classic 4 gates push all-in. Same thing about TvZ. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
The biggest problems seems to be PvT in fact and Blizzard already said they were looking into it. Right now in my opinion T and Z are pretty good but P has some weird internal imbalances. What I mean is that they are super strong at a 4 gate push, terribly bad mid game and have the best late game army. I think Protoss needs to be more even over the course of the game in order to balance with the other races. Once they tweak the P mechanics to make them more even they should be able to balance PvT and PvZ. TvZ is in my opinion both the most fun matchup (to watch and play) and the most balanced non-mirror. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
North America is 100% Aiur Korea is Terran and Zerg favored Europe is Protoss and Terran favored SEA is Protoss and Zerg favored | ||
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Badjas
Netherlands2038 Posts
On November 08 2010 00:40 Jayson X wrote: I dont quite get this... If the system is looking for 50% winrate for you, how much more irrelevant can these statistics be? Why not at least post map statistics? Or the numbers of players taken into account? Or the average time for a game in each match up? (If a lot of people in diamond would play random, the random players could be measured for a reliable measure. Maybe the only reliable method available?) | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
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eckm
United States72 Posts
On November 08 2010 01:14 HalfAmazing wrote: These stats are completely meaningless because blizzard applies some funny math to get these numbers. These are not raw, they are manipulated. For most people raw numbers would be more misleading that the 'manipulated' ones. They're manipulated in order to balance for many random factors. However, I agree that Blizzard should release the raw numbers... they should just release ALL the raw numbers, not only w/l. | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
Because the range of skill levels in Diamond is so high there is not a lot you can extrapolate from this. Pretty much that.. When I think about the fact that I'm counting into this... lol | ||
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shtdisturbance
Canada613 Posts
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
On November 08 2010 00:57 clickrush wrote: actually its even stranger than I first thought! North America is 100% Aiur Korea is Terran and Zerg favored Europe is Protoss and Terran favored SEA is Protoss and Zerg favored ? How is NA 100% Aiur if Z>P on NA? | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
PvT - 1.25% in favor of protoss PvZ - 2.025% in favor of zerg TvZ - 1.4% in favor of terran (note this is solely due to T dominance on EU servers) TvZ (discounting EU) - 3.6%in favor of zerg Europe seems to be the outlier in most cases. PvT, as a whole, is anyone's call as each race appears to be dominant over the other on at least two servers. PvZ is most obviously (and consistently) in favor of zerg. In total, T is only ahead of Z due to EU's numbers. Otherwise, Z holds strong in that MU. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On November 08 2010 01:34 Osmoses wrote: I'm really impressed with how balanced the game is already. All matchups everywhere are within 5% deviations of win/loss. Very impressive. This just means you don't understand statistics very well. | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
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stk01001
United States786 Posts
On November 08 2010 01:38 TeWy wrote: This just means you don't understand statistics very well. care to enlighten us on what exactly he's misunderstanding? His statement seems accurate to me.. let me guess.. you analyzed the statistics with your genius statistical mind and have determined that the game is incredibly unbalanced right? so please enlighten us which matchups are soooo IMBA right now?? | ||
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Dont Panic
United States194 Posts
On November 07 2010 22:14 Chill wrote: These stats are dumb and useless. I'm going to bed. QFT. You can get to like 1700 by just 4gating or bunker pushing. Being in diamond doesn't qualify you of anything. I taught my friend 4 gate and he got 1100 diamond in 90 games. | ||
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Sepp
Netherlands22 Posts
A 5% win difference in a matchup is hugh actually, considering it should be 50% based on ladder mechanism. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On November 08 2010 01:56 stk01001 wrote: care to enlighten us on what exactly he's misunderstanding? His statement seems accurate to me.. let me guess.. you analyzed the statistics with your genius mind and have determined that the game is incredibly unbalanced right? so please enlighten us which matchups are soooo IMBA right now?? Because the deviation isn't one directional. It's not just how much more often one race wins, it's how often the other loses, as well. So if it's 55% in favor of protoss for example, that means it's only 45% for terran. The deviation here would be 10%, not 5 and that is really quite significant. | ||
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Powster
United States650 Posts
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
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Wire
United States494 Posts
But on the other hand..zerg wins up!! :D ^^^^^ | ||
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HungShark
United States134 Posts
Also, this data shows that TvZ is very balanced. I still don't agree with the depot before rax, though. | ||
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Malhorn
United States148 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9366 Posts
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oxxo
988 Posts
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On November 08 2010 03:41 adeezy wrote: These statistics matter greatly. Back in beta it made it very obvious which races were overpowered. I remember when Zerg roach was incredible and from what I remember, the win percent ZvP was 70%. Things have vastly improved. Some statistics vary inversely between the different servers so I think overall its balanced but they need to do some work on PvZ a little bit maybe. PvT statistics are weird lol dont know what to make out of em yeh its quite interesting that the PvT statistics vary so much over the different servers. The Ps gotta learn from the NA players while it seems that the Ts gotta learn from Europe | ||
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Mahavishnu
Canada396 Posts
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
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raph
United States204 Posts
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anilusion
Sweden247 Posts
On November 08 2010 04:29 Mahavishnu wrote: terrans can beat any race if they are decent players All races can. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:33 blade55555 wrote: I really wish they released these back before the first balance patch. Would have been interesting to see tvz win %. They did release some on October 7th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/882511 +1 | ||
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Dikun
Canada17 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Meatloaf
Spain664 Posts
the roach range is not that big change , the thing zergs learned to do well is to actually USE burrow , never seen a zerg using it on EU till this patch. prolly thats the cause of EU zergs doing not so well , they just dont have the level of NA or SEA. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On November 08 2010 03:37 oxxo wrote: Hilarious how before the latest patch people were using these same stats to prove T was 'overpowered'. Now that the stats actually don't back up their argument they're saying 'oh you can't use these!' Well, what surprises me is that back when T was thought to be overpowered, threads popped up and STAYED up for weeks. Now you can't find a single thread that talks about Z being somewhat overpowered. I think the small population of Zergs is also harmful too as when one in 128 or whatever doesn't win a tournament, people think "Oh Zergs fine." When in reality only 5/128 were zerg. | ||
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MagnusHyperion
United States288 Posts
the real situation is that we are all noobs and need to catch up to korea in terms of strategy instead of just blaming "balance" issues that obviously (if you look at the averages as a WHOLE) come out to being 50% +/- 5% (i know there are outliers but that can easily be explained by lack of strategy that the koreans clearly have developed) If I were blizzard I would tell everyone to suck it up and learn to play well like the koreans | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On November 08 2010 05:34 MagnusHyperion wrote: Everyone remember, Blizzard has said MULTIPLE times that anything bigger than a 5% margin one way or the either could even BEGIN to describe a potentially "unbalanced" situation. With that in mind, I suggest everyone looks at Korea's numbers and understand that their strategies have made the game almost perfectly "balanced"... the real situation is that we are all noobs and need to catch up to korea in terms of strategy instead of just blaming "balance" issues that obviously (if you look at the averages as a WHOLE) come out to being 50% +/- 5% (i know there are outliers but that can easily be explained by lack of strategy that the koreans clearly have developed) If I were blizzard I would tell everyone to suck it up and learn to play well like the koreans Sadly most players like both the dedication and the motivation to do such a thing. | ||
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jtw1n
United States18 Posts
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
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GabrielB
Brazil594 Posts
On November 08 2010 05:34 MagnusHyperion wrote: Everyone remember, Blizzard has said MULTIPLE times that anything bigger than a 5% margin one way or the either could even BEGIN to describe a potentially "unbalanced" situation. With that in mind, I suggest everyone looks at Korea's numbers and understand that their strategies have made the game almost perfectly "balanced"... Well, if I understand it correctly, PvZ is potentially imbalanced in Korea (47.4% vs 52.6%), at a 5.2% difference. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On November 08 2010 05:30 MythicalMage wrote: Well, what surprises me is that back when T was thought to be overpowered, threads popped up and STAYED up for weeks. Now you can't find a single thread that talks about Z being somewhat overpowered. I think the small population of Zergs is also harmful too as when one in 128 or whatever doesn't win a tournament, people think "Oh Zergs fine." When in reality only 5/128 were zerg. maybe because terran indeed was OP (see huge nerfs and style shifts and still dominating most tournaments) and people are just crying about Z cause they couldnt adapt/their builds dont mean instawin anymore? you really are trying hard to justify your opinion | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
*vP 14 8-6-0 57% *vT 12 7-4-1 63% *vZ 17 13-3-1 81% Pv* 15 9-6-0 60% PvP 3 0-3-0 0% PvT 4 2-2-0 50% PvZ 8 7-1-0 87% Tv* 18 13-5-0 72% TvP 7 5-2-0 71% TvT 4 3-1-0 75% TvZ 7 5-2-0 71% Zv* 10 6-2-2 75% ZvP 4 3-1-0 75% ZvT 4 2-1-1 66% ZvZ 2 1-0-1 100% I still eat Zergs for breakfast, but I'm pretty good playing them by myself. I currently don't see any huge balance problems anymore. Nevertheless, I severely criticize both the league policy (divide et impera), the statistics policy (which doesn't exist) and the balance policy (weakening everything, not maintaining unit roles). The whole procedure of balancing by overall looking at ....... [insert master's thesis here] ....... is cheap. edit: T surely was overpowered. I regularly crushed two times the army sizes of P and Z armies with T in the beta and the early sc2 versions, mainly because they outrange everything. | ||
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
On November 08 2010 05:34 MagnusHyperion wrote: If I were blizzard I would tell everyone to suck it up and learn to play well like the koreans Everybody needs an invisible bogeyman to blame. When you're not one of the ten best players in the world, chances are that you didn't play well enough to whine about anything. And if you are, your job is to stop whining about it and get better. So really, people should just play the game. | ||
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. Why is this guy not at least warned for this post, if not banned? This is an absurb statement with no support. Win percentages in diamond don't really mean much at all. I could teach my grandma to macro to get into diamond. Win percentages at the high levels are the only things that can give indications of balance, if anything can at all. | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On November 08 2010 05:52 ZlaSHeR wrote: Lol so not surprised that PvT is 56.5%, but P's just love to bitch even when they're up 13%. way to totally ignore the stats in korea and europe. Prime example of using statistics to prove your bias. Should get a job at fox news. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On November 08 2010 05:55 GabrielB wrote: Well, if I understand it correctly, PvZ is potentially imbalanced in Korea (47.4% vs 52.6%), at a 5.2% difference. No, you've misunderstood the 5% range. Blizzard considers a match-up imbalanced if one race wins more than 55% of the time, or, a 10% difference between win-rates. It looks to me like TvZ is about as balanced as a match-up can be, which is great news. PvZ looks fairly balanced as well. The problem, of course, is how to deal with PvT, without ruining the balance of TvZ. Seems to me that Toss needs some race-specific changes to change the TvP problem of early vs late game (which is not real balance). | ||
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Schism
Australia85 Posts
Of course, that's not to say showing map statistics won't help build better maps overall...but the improved maps will still favour various races for various reasons. Especially given there has been and will be more balance changes (reapers go from being deadly around cliffs to being more or less a completely redundant unit within one patch). Todays terran map is tomorrows zerg map etc etc | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
On November 08 2010 07:09 Uhh Negative wrote: Why is this guy not at least warned for this post, if not banned? This is an absurb statement with no support. Win percentages in diamond don't really mean much at all. I could teach my grandma to macro to get into diamond. Win percentages at the high levels are the only things that can give indications of balance, if anything can at all. the lack of humour on TL forums never ceases to amaze me. On November 08 2010 02:00 Sepp wrote: Ladder numbers don't mean anything because, based on the ladder mechanism, it should be around 50% even if its completely imbalanced. For instance, in the hypothetical situation that Z is very OP and T very UP, a top T will be matched against a average Z and win % will still be around 50% for both races. The number of Z's that are top ranked will only increase, which could also be an artifact as a consequence of higher Z skill level. A 5% win difference in a matchup is hugh actually, considering it should be 50% based on ladder mechanism. yes! this is why its a bad idea for blizz to even release this kind of statistic to the general public - because 99% of the ppl will not realize that these statistics are meaningless with b.nets matchmaking system edit: actually they said they adjusted for that in the blog. " In effect, the matchmaking system could be hiding balance issues -- if we didn't use an adjusted win percentage which takes the matchmaker's effects into account. What's an adjusted win percentage? Well, while the math behind calculating an adjusted win percentage is extremely complex,..." | ||
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Siwa
91 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 08 2010 09:35 iEchoic wrote: These numbers are completely meaningless, and would be no matter what the numbers are. For example, I could never win a TvZ in a Bo3 against an equally-skilled player but I win 75% on ladder by 5rax allining with SCVs because that's the only chance I have and it works as long as I never have to play the person again. Ah will thats why your always going to struggle in tvz. If all you do is all in no wonder you suck at the match up lol don't blame balance ^^. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On November 08 2010 09:36 blade55555 wrote: Ah will thats why your always going to struggle in tvz. If all you do is all in no wonder you suck at the match up lol don't blame balance ^^. I practice in customs TvZ all the time. Despite practicing TvZ many many hours I still can't beat equally-skilled players. There's no point feeding people wins on ladder so I might as well 5rax allin. | ||
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Wasteweiser
Canada522 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
I play Terran and literally everyone you find is a zerg now, it's hard not to get a lot of TvZ Practice and it's harder to get beaten by what seems to be the only race you come across. | ||
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TheGiftedApe
United States1243 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:42 Dommk wrote: They are only meaningful if they show that my race is UP! these are my exact feelings on the subject | ||
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TERRANLOL
United States626 Posts
Here are the averages: PvT 51.25 PvZ 47.975 ZvT 50.35 PvT -> In Protoss Favor TvZ -> Very very miniscule zerg favor PvZ -> In Zerg favor I'm a little mixed up about these stats though. If anyone's taken care to note, Zerg went from composing 15% of daimond league to composing about 25%. This means that 10% of diamond league Zerg players are probably new zerg players and therefore bad zerg players. I think if we wait longer, Zerg will continue to pull ahead. Additionally, I would like to see win/loss ratios for the different point ranges. The sc2 ranks graph of race composition is nice but it doesn't say much. Race composition is a measure of how many players play each race and that is what it measures. It's not a measure of skill. Because of this, the fact that just plain more players play terran mean that terran is going to make up the most of each section. Additionally, toward the end you're measuring a very small pool of players. The second from last one is the top 10 players. Furthermore, this graph seems to pin the whole in Terran's favor, but if we look at average points: Average points R880 P978 T975 Z1,069 It's clearly in Zerg's favor. However, if you limit it to the top 1000, you get something different: Average points Random: 2,286 Protoss: 2,286 Terran: 2,303 Zerg: 2,283 Then the top 500 comes out completely even: Average points Random: 2,376 Protoss: 2,406 Terran: 2,408 Zerg: 2,401 I think that as you approach the top levels of play on the ladder, the races come out even. But even then, these stats are still skewed. I think Terran win most of their games with cheese, but is in general weaker in a macro based game. We don't really have access to statistics to prove that, though. This is why I'd rather leave the balancing job to Blizzard >.> | ||
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Galaxy77
Hong Kong256 Posts
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The_Voidless
United States184 Posts
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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ci_esteban
United States217 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. You and your stupid posts is the reason why TL sucks. Stop bolding your stupid opinions.... | ||
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SMoneyMonkey
Canada15 Posts
On November 08 2010 10:57 ci_esteban wrote: You and your stupid posts is the reason why TL sucks. Stop bolding your stupid opinions.... To be fair he probably meant to say zerg is winning I'm 3 out if 4 regions which isn't so much an opinion as a fact (only assuming he meant winning because the races can't really be OP in a single region, doesn't make sense.) I am in no way skilled enough to be able to tell if a race is OP, but, the top 1000 or so zerg might just be more skilled than the top 1000 toss, or something like that do you can't really lower the test group numbers too much, this is the best measure for now. Probably the best measure plausible without master and grandmaster leagues. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Space Invader
Australia291 Posts
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Shakes
Australia557 Posts
On November 08 2010 10:12 TERRANLOL wrote: Lol. I don't see how so many people can interpret these stats so differently. Here are the averages: You can't average them out by just adding them up and dividing by 4 like that, the server populations aren't equal. | ||
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Space Invader
Australia291 Posts
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Essentia
1150 Posts
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vesicular
United States1310 Posts
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On November 08 2010 10:18 The_Voidless wrote: I loled for a moment when I saw SEA, I was thinking why the hell does the principality of Sealand matter. But I digresses it looks pretty balance to me I guess without looking at the lower leagues. Probably because there are players playing on it, you dolt. | ||
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ghostnuke1234
164 Posts
On November 08 2010 10:57 ci_esteban wrote: You and your stupid posts is the reason why TL sucks. Stop bolding your stupid opinions.... Quality post m8. Instead of flaming somebody outright, why don't you provide a constructive criticism and debate his points? It's garbage responses like yours that adds nothing to TL and lowers the overall quality of discussion. | ||
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HughJorgen
Australia37 Posts
Think of it this way, if they nerfed Protoss into the ground by halving the shields and life points of every unit, then for a while Protoss would lose every match. Then, higher skilled Protoss players would start beating lower skilled Zerg and Terran players despite the massive handicap. Then Battle.Net looks at Huk and assign him a skill rating of :mid gold level:. Then Blizzard run the stats and find that Huk is a mid gold player winning 50% of his matches. Balance achieved! It's not just a matchmaking problem, it's a circular argument. Protoss win 50% of their matches at this skill level = A player's skill level is determined by where they start winning 50% of their matches. There are a few things that slightly improve the situation: 1) random players since they can maintain their 'skill level' by winning more with one or two of the races. 2) The very, very top since you can maintain a win% higher than 50% (there might be more of a particular race here) 3) The very, very bottom where you can maintain a win% below 50% (there might be more of a particular race here) 4) some other measure of player skill that doesn't entirely depend on wins vs losses (apm? resources? game score?) Just to reiterate: saying that they've removed the matchmaking bias is all well and good but unless Blizzard have a method of determining player skill that doesn't depend on wins/losses (e.g. apm, game score, whatever) you'll still get statistics that are heavily biased in favour of balance. | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On November 08 2010 09:57 Qikz wrote: I'm not suprised about Zerg in Europe. I play Terran and literally everyone you find is a zerg now, it's hard not to get a lot of TvZ Practice and it's harder to get beaten by what seems to be the only race you come across. Your post is a good example of why accurately talking about balance is hard. Those Zergs (if you're a high diamond player?) used to play ZvT in more than half of their games so they should be good at it - contradicting what you're saying. I used to play in the top 200 rating-wise (according to sc2ranks.com) on EU - statistics were showing that ~50% of the players at that level were Terran and I as a Zerg have to this date surely played more ZvT than ZvZ, ZvR and ZvP combined (haven't been playing since midish September and back then the Terran domination was pretty extreme ^^). The result was that I lost a lot of ZvP and ZvZ but won a lot of ZvT - but that still doesn't mean that ZvT was anything but the hardest match up even if my personal statistics said otherwise. There are so very many variables to take into account when discussing balance. Statistics shouldn't be completely disregarded but most important is analyses of single games on a huge scale imo. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:33 blade55555 wrote: I really wish they released these back before the first balance patch. Would have been interesting to see tvz win %. They did, TvZ is like 49.1% or something. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44116 Posts
"Well, that obviously proves that X is OP!" or "Well, that obviously proves that X is UP!" The numbers don't indicate balance issues -.-' You need to expect variation (not perfect 50/50). Stop QQing. Quite frankly, I'm pleased with how close the percentages are. It shows that Blizzard is doing a pretty damn good job so early on in the game's life. If a race was 30/70 all across the board in a match-up, then I'd be concerned. I think people who have trouble with playing against certain races or builds should focus on strategies and asking for help, rather than insisting on buffs and nerfs. If there's a problem, then the problem is YOU. | ||
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
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Scruff
Singapore509 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. And this post just shows how dumb and ignorant you are | ||
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FunnelC4kes
Ireland462 Posts
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On November 08 2010 13:48 andrewlt wrote: So it looks like Protoss is slightly underpowered but TvZ is around even (50.5%). That's not that bad considering T>Z (52-53%), Z>P (54%) and PvT (51%) roughly historically in professional BW. yeah but bw is so different. the only matchup that sometimes looks similar is TvZ imo. PvZ only in a few cases. sangho made it look pretty similar. PvT is nothing like bw. anyway, blizz does a great job with their balancing I really trust in those guys to do a good job also in the future. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
What's an adjusted win percentage? Well, while the math behind calculating an adjusted win percentage is extremely complex, an adjusted win percentage can be summed up as the 'true' win percentage of a given race, produced by removing the skewing effects of the matchmaker and factoring in player skill. I find this to be a hilarious statement. A rating is a measure of your performance, skill is something completely difference. A rating depends on multiple factors including Skill, matchup, conditions(maps), and other factors(maybe a player is really good at laddering or at 4 gating, but bad in lategame) I've tried to think of any formula that is possible to use in this situation, but here is the problem. They are using a bayesian algorithm. Bayes predicts winning odds against another player. So when the system believes that you should win and you lose, then either 1. You aren't as good as the system thinks 2. Your opponent is better than the system thinks 3. There is recent change which has caused the system to change. There is no other information that can be gathered. When blizzard releases their magic formula please let me know. | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
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Naoko
Sweden53 Posts
None of these numbers mean anything else. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On November 08 2010 16:26 darmousseh wrote: they released the formula @blizzcon, havn't they ?I find this to be a hilarious statement. A rating is a measure of your performance, skill is something completely difference. A rating depends on multiple factors including Skill, matchup, conditions(maps), and other factors(maybe a player is really good at laddering or at 4 gating, but bad in lategame) I've tried to think of any formula that is possible to use in this situation, but here is the problem. They are using a bayesian algorithm. Bayes predicts winning odds against another player. So when the system believes that you should win and you lose, then either 1. You aren't as good as the system thinks 2. Your opponent is better than the system thinks 3. There is recent change which has caused the system to change. There is no other information that can be gathered. When blizzard releases their magic formula please let me know. | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
And I am also suspicious about the release of these numbers. Last time a patch hit shortly afterwards - maybe this is the case once more? | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On November 08 2010 16:26 darmousseh wrote: I find this to be a hilarious statement. A rating is a measure of your performance, skill is something completely difference. A rating depends on multiple factors including Skill, matchup, conditions(maps), and other factors(maybe a player is really good at laddering or at 4 gating, but bad in lategame) I've tried to think of any formula that is possible to use in this situation, but here is the problem. They are using a bayesian algorithm. Bayes predicts winning odds against another player. So when the system believes that you should win and you lose, then either 1. You aren't as good as the system thinks 2. Your opponent is better than the system thinks 3. There is recent change which has caused the system to change. There is no other information that can be gathered. When blizzard releases their magic formula please let me know. They released the formula at Blizzcon: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163309#5 It's a formula of a Bayesian estimator. And Bayesian inference is the correct way to go here. Also, rating is the system's estimator of player skill. Thus the two terms are use synonymously. | ||
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TERRANLOL
United States626 Posts
On November 08 2010 12:09 HughJorgen wrote: If a player's skill rating and league are determined by their wins and losses, then stats on win/loss percentages at a particular skill rating mean nothing. Think of it this way, if they nerfed Protoss into the ground by halving the shields and life points of every unit, then for a while Protoss would lose every match. Then, higher skilled Protoss players would start beating lower skilled Zerg and Terran players despite the massive handicap. Then Battle.Net looks at Huk and assign him a skill rating of :mid gold level:. Then Blizzard run the stats and find that Huk is a mid gold player winning 50% of his matches. Balance achieved! It's not just a matchmaking problem, it's a circular argument. Protoss win 50% of their matches at this skill level = A player's skill level is determined by where they start winning 50% of their matches. There are a few things that slightly improve the situation: 1) random players since they can maintain their 'skill level' by winning more with one or two of the races. 2) The very, very top since you can maintain a win% higher than 50% (there might be more of a particular race here) 3) The very, very bottom where you can maintain a win% below 50% (there might be more of a particular race here) 4) some other measure of player skill that doesn't entirely depend on wins vs losses (apm? resources? game score?) Just to reiterate: saying that they've removed the matchmaking bias is all well and good but unless Blizzard have a method of determining player skill that doesn't depend on wins/losses (e.g. apm, game score, whatever) you'll still get statistics that are heavily biased in favour of balance. We can use average points to make sure that what you're proposing isn't true. | ||
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Tonyoh
France218 Posts
2 Players with equal skills, and one no matching the other. But yeah... it's totally balanced ? Nowadays I play random and I enjoy zerg in team for their speed and techswitching. This race is way too powerfull. They should nerf the speed bonus given to speedling. Look two basics units : 4 speedgling : outrun reaper, cost almost the same. But you need factory to research the speed upgrade for reapers... No wonder why TLO switch to take zerg, he is a smart and creative players, and see that now zerg : 1) can fast expand without any troubles, 2) have the fastest units, the best mapcontrol, 3) fungalgrowth and badling own m&m ball, as well as speedling/roach, 4) better eco... (can make like 12 drones at the same time) Face it, zerg is currently the best race, and it's more apparent in team game ( I almost never loose as zerg, went 9-1 in 2vs2 with a friend in gold league.) If no furthers changes are made, I will play with the imbalance in my side. =) Nowadays, since reaper speed nerf, and roach up, fast expand is way too easy, and zerg have some really cost effective units (zerglings, roach, badling etc) Queen do very fine against fast banshee or voidray. | ||
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madnessman
United States1581 Posts
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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Pewt
Canada201 Posts
Diamond, a league which ranges from 6poolers to 4gaters to decent players to pros, is not really representative of anything. | ||
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dekuschrub
United States2069 Posts
that matchup is so bogus! T v Z is fine! | ||
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
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Gecko
United States519 Posts
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zoOv
Australia269 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Since these are Diamond statistics and I am a mid-Diamond Terran player I am surprised that the stats are so balanced. It does not align with my personal experience at all. I win about 75% of my games vs Zerg and about 25% of my games vs Protoss. Ie playing against Zerg is easy on most maps and playing vs Protoss is a total nightmare. I wonder if my personal experience is unique or if other mid-Diamond players have a similar experience? | ||
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
Its really awesome blizzard actually released this data. Surprising, in fact. However, its hard to say whose data should be considered most when determining who is playing what right and wrong, and overall skill levels. But the fact that no matchup is more imbalanced then 2.6% on Korean server is kind of amazing. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
the rest was expected due patch no ? | ||
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
On November 08 2010 09:38 iEchoic wrote: I practice in customs TvZ all the time. Despite practicing TvZ many many hours I still can't beat equally-skilled players. There's no point feeding people wins on ladder so I might as well 5rax allin. Your post makes no sense. What makes you think you can tell who is equally skilled? | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On November 09 2010 02:26 out4blood wrote: Your post makes no sense. What makes you think you can tell who is equally skilled? I play plenty of random players and I crush their T and P and lose to their Z, and they tell me themselves they're not any better at zerg. On ladder I win literally like 80-90% of my TvT and TvP and like 40% of my TvZ (unless I cheese allin). Are you the out4blood from AoK by any chance? | ||
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Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
On November 09 2010 06:22 iEchoic wrote: I play plenty of random players and I crush their T and P and lose to their Z, and they tell me themselves they're not any better at zerg. On ladder I win literally like 80-90% of my TvT and TvP and like 40% of my TvZ (unless I cheese allin). Are you the out4blood from AoK by any chance? http://sc2ranks.com/us/625307/iEchoic (80+80+40)/3 = 66.6% You = 1,858 points. Won 442, lost 398 (52.62% wins) Can you explain where the disparity is? If I solve this, you must play vs Zerg 68.45% of the time, and vs the other two races 15.78% of the time. Is that literally your claim? | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On November 09 2010 06:36 Chill wrote: http://sc2ranks.com/us/625307/iEchoic (80+80+40)/3 = 66.6% You = 1,858 points. Won 442, lost 398 (52.62% wins) Can you explain where the disparity is? If I solve this, you must play vs Zerg 68.45% of the time, and vs the other two races 15.78% of the time. Is that literally your claim? I've actually been offracing, I lost about 300 points playing zerg and random over the last 2-3 weeks. And obviously my game history from the beginning of the game isn't going to show anything post-1.1.2. Kind of weird data you're using there. Edit: as I said before, I also manage to get decent win rates vs Z by 5rax allining, which is why I qualified my post above with "unless I cheese allin". | ||
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johngalt90
United States357 Posts
On November 09 2010 06:36 Chill wrote: http://sc2ranks.com/us/625307/iEchoic (80+80+40)/3 = 66.6% You = 1,858 points. Won 442, lost 398 (52.62% wins) Can you explain where the disparity is? If I solve this, you must play vs Zerg 68.45% of the time, and vs the other two races 15.78% of the time. Is that literally your claim? :Owned lol the chill smackdown. | ||
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Gryffes
United Kingdom763 Posts
These stats are just trollbait pure and simple. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
Except his stats make no sense at all and were completely reaching. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On November 09 2010 06:44 iEchoic wrote: Except his stats make no sense at all and were completely reaching. The stats he used make perfect sense. To have achieved a win rate of 80% vs Toss and Terran, a 40% win rate against Zerg, and a 52.62% win rate overall (your win rate) you would have to have played against Zerg 68.45% of the time. This is a highly unlikely event, especially given that Zerg is the least-played race on the ladder, you should only be running into Zerg approx. 28% of the time. 5 rax isn't cheese, btw, it's (apparently) a winning strategy against Zerg. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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MK4512
Canada938 Posts
THESE MEAN NOTHING OUT OF CONTEXT. You (probably) lost because you were WORSE than your opponent. Get over it, and learn to play better. If your convictions are correct about an imba race, when they are patched, you will own them extra hard. I'm not saying don't ever talk about balance, but 99% of the time, its your fault, not your or their units. I seriously think that Blizzard just throws these out there to stir the pot and distract from other things. | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
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Slakter
Sweden1947 Posts
On November 09 2010 06:22 iEchoic wrote: I play plenty of random players and I crush their T and P and lose to their Z, and they tell me themselves they're not any better at zerg. On ladder I win literally like 80-90% of my TvT and TvP and like 40% of my TvZ (unless I cheese allin). Are you the out4blood from AoK by any chance? You just suck at TvZ. | ||
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lol12tree
Canada88 Posts
Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1063356808 oGsMC (P) Q. Protoss isn’t doing very well. A. In in-house leagues, I feel that protoss is very hard to play. Zerg became stronger, and PvT became more of a build order risk. sCfOu (T) Q. Your goal for this season? A. I want to advance to the finals. I think I should be fine as long as I don’t play zergs. After the patch, TvZ became too difficult. cOreZenith (P) Q. Protoss hasn’t been doing well in the last 2 seasons. A. They have to nerf marauders. They should also return the old range of 3 to roaches. I also wish they would bring back the old zealots. Protoss is so hard. TSL_GuineaPig (P) Q. How were this season’s qualifiers? A. I played a mirror match-up 3 times. I had to play my weakest PvZ so I thought I would fail, but I’m glad that I won. NEXChoa (P) Q. Are you confident about the main event? A. I’m confident in PvT but playing against zerg is difficult. I want to avoid PvZ’s as much as possible. Cyrano (P) Q. What is your goal this season? A. My goal was to go through the qualifiers, but I’m greedier now. I want to make it to the round of 32 at least and play against a zerg rather than a protoss. I’m worried that all zerg players are very good though. MekaPrime (T) Q. It feels like your TvZ has gotten worse. A. I regret the fact that I didn’t practice enough, but games can go either way, so I shouldn’t be disappointed by it. IMJunwiPrime (Z) Q. You chose zerg after playing random. A. I was initially going to qualify as terran, but I couldn’t handle TvT. I then tried to play protoss, but PvZ was too difficult. So zerg was the only race left. I actually registered as protoss, but changed to zerg at the last minute. My protoss teammates hate me for that. GuMihofOu (R) Q. Is there a race that you are better at? A. The zerg is doing well recently and it’s my most confident race. It tends to change every patch. jookToJung (Z) Q. What do you think about the zerg buff in the recent patch? A. I personally can't believe the current balance in TvZ right now, zerg is way too overpowered. aLivefOu (T) Q. Are you confident about the main event? A. I already told people that if I make it through today, I will get Code S and advance to the final. I think I can even win if I refine my TvZ. FOX_Bless a.k.a. Lyn (T) Q. Did you refine your TvP? A. It's my most confident match-up. People around me know me for my TvP, but I lost last time, because I made a mistake. IMmvp (T) Q. You're known to have very strong TvZ. A. After I got knocked out, I became a 'terran QQ'. TvZ is very difficult, actually, TvP is very difficult too. I want 'terran QQ' to be my concept. SlayerS_BoxeR (T) Q. We are expecting a strong showing from zergs this season. A. Zergs found a way to win even with smaller sample of representation. Now, more zergs are participating, because zerg became better. I hope that trend continues, so that the development team realizes something is wrong. I really hope zergs have a strong showing, but I hope I'm not one of their preys. ST_Steak a.k.a. JulyZerg (Z) Q. The patch must have helped the zergs. A. I think the balance right now is fine, but other terrans and protosses don't seem to think so. You have to admit that zerg was underpowered in the beginning. Terran and protoss should be able to adjust as time passes, just like zerg did. CheckPrime (Z) Q. You were one of the bigger 'zerg QQ's. A. I got flamed too much, so I think I'll stay quiet for now. I heard that zerg has qualified the most so far, so I guess zerg is strong now. NEXGenius (P) Q. What makes it so hard to play? A. Terrans are grabbing timing windows too quickly. They don't let the protoss be alone in the early game. Zerg is hard to play against because of the recent patch. Genius decides to change race -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170725¤tpage=All ([b]it has been suggested by many, and logically so, that he may not be serious, you can trust him, or not) Fruitdealer says PvT, the P needs a buff at the season 2 qualifiers when sSKS failed to qualify sSKS and SangHo thinks TvP is OP, in fact in the GOM TV Clan Special [http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166818] sSKS got 1st place inside TSL by defeating SangHo in the finals AS Terran and says , "terrans op" Fruitdealer says zerg is op in GSL S3 Interview After Ro64 win KyrixZenith says zerg is op when he won GSL All-Stars HongUnPrime says zerg roaches are over powered with recent buff sSKS and InCa said they were considering changing race because of imbalance in Gisado's stream chat (not sure how serious they were, they COULD have been joking around, I personally think they were) | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On November 09 2010 06:36 Chill wrote: http://sc2ranks.com/us/625307/iEchoic (80+80+40)/3 = 66.6% You = 1,858 points. Won 442, lost 398 (52.62% wins) Can you explain where the disparity is? If I solve this, you must play vs Zerg 68.45% of the time, and vs the other two races 15.78% of the time. Is that literally your claim? Even if IEchoic's stats are true, they would actually show that TvP is horribly T favored and TvZ is either balanced or slightly Z favored. See what happens when you try to pass off anecdotal evidence as real evidence? | ||
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blackh3d
Australia49 Posts
Personally, I think this post is a means for Blizzard to justify its own patch decisions. [edited for content] | ||
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sl0w
United States447 Posts
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DROPPINBOMBS
United States312 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
ie. 0-8 minutes - PvT 43% 8-15 minutes -PvT 50% 15+ -PvT 57% Again these numbers are arbitrary, and by no means biased, but something like that would also be a good indicator of the state of balance, and possibly why it feels that way. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On November 26 2010 14:39 lol12tree wrote: GSL 3 QUALIFIER THOUGHTS INTERVIEW Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1063356808 Genius decides to change race -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170725¤tpage=All ([b]it has been suggested by many, and logically so, that he may not be serious, you can trust him, or not) Fruitdealer says PvT, the P needs a buff at the season 2 qualifiers when sSKS failed to qualify sSKS and SangHo thinks TvP is OP, in fact in the GOM TV Clan Special [http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166818] sSKS got 1st place inside TSL by defeating SangHo in the finals AS Terran and says , "terrans op" Fruitdealer says zerg is op in GSL S3 Interview After Ro64 win KyrixZenith says zerg is op when he won GSL All-Stars HongUnPrime says zerg roaches are over powered with recent buff sSKS and InCa said they were considering changing race because of imbalance in Gisado's stream chat (not sure how serious they were, they COULD have been joking around, I personally think they were) Everyone in those interviews is biased. Now XvZ became harder to play, but that does not mean much about game balance. Fruitdealer said zerg is op just as a joke, you can't take that serious. | ||
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Craton
United States17242 Posts
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Guard
Canada43 Posts
On November 26 2010 15:09 Amui wrote: If they could release win ratio's by both matchup and elapsed time, it could give a bigger insight into what is suspected. ie. 0-8 minutes - PvT 43% 8-15 minutes -PvT 50% 15+ -PvT 57% Again these numbers are arbitrary, and by no means biased, but something like that would also be a good indicator of the state of balance, and possibly why it feels that way. Why not take this whole thing a step further and make graphs of win % vs time? This would be absolutely amazing for both players themselves and blizzard. I really do not like when 1 number is supposed to mean something. Okay fine it's 3 numbers. | ||
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Shinkugami
England74 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:26 blade55555 wrote: thats actually really interesting how zerg has a better win% on NA but Euro is complete opposite (55.0% tvz wow) and 51% pvz isn't too bad thats really close to 50% but this obviously is counting all diamond games not just top top player games but still interesting to see ^^. Thanks for posting You wouldn't say that if you saw how most zergs (even in diamond!) play on the Euro server. - 3 spines - 40 roaches - 1a And i'm not even kidding... | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
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Hyst3ria
United States167 Posts
I'm pretty sure it's different in Korea as anyone can win with a 4 gate. | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
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Rarak
Australia631 Posts
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote: The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. Lol you can't be OP in 3 out of the 4 regions when they all are running the same game. | ||
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positron.
634 Posts
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
EDIT: Hope we can see some map info because that is the pressing issue right now, rather than races. | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
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Irrelevant
United States2364 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
This doesn't say a whole lot. Even in blizzcon Browder was talking that map (of course) is a big factor in balance. And yet they just throw out diamond league numbers. Only when we see numbers per map and for players above a certain rating this discussion can get interesting. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11550 Posts
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afirlortwo
United States161 Posts
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Onisparda
Canada516 Posts
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parkin
1079 Posts
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sl0w
United States447 Posts
On November 27 2010 07:46 parkin wrote: I really really want them to post map specific statistic too. Seriously, that would be soo useful. | ||
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parkin
1079 Posts
And as Ive already said, It's be interesting what maps races usually thumb down and the win rates on them. | ||
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Trawler
Sweden382 Posts
Is this how blizzard wants the game to look? | ||
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Blobskillz
Germany548 Posts
On November 27 2010 08:06 Trawler wrote: Kinda worth to note that the terran win % has gone up since GSL 2. Only becuase the marine + SCV allin. Is this how blizzard wants the game to look? that is not a balance issue. Wait some time and Marine SCV allin will be over. Just needs some time to adjust | ||
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vol_
Australia1608 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
Anyway, the only thing I see if the numbers are legit,is that it's pretty well balanced for now. | ||
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