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+ Show Spoiler [gsl spoiler] +So for those that watched the GSL, we saw maka build a rax in his natural expansion area, and HopeTorture did the same thing in one of his games.
I'm going to give these guys the benefit of the doubt as the high level players as they are and assume that there's some sort of reason for doing that.
What do y'all think is the reason for that rax placement? The one thing that I was thinking is that the rax there blocks off the entrance point to the back of the natural mineral line so that helions can't slip in... but of course they didn't get their expansion for a while.
Edit: Was suggested that I hide the main body of my question as it might be a spoiler.
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You should note that it's a spoiler.
Anyways, it's because he planned on doing a rush, it's for faster rallying.
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its for a faster rally and you can try and hide it from the scout.
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kinda like how some terrans build their rax inside the smoke area on scrap station. it can fool your opponent into a false sense of alarm, if they cant find where you put your rax.
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On October 20 2010 12:21 XxScionxX wrote:
its for a faster rally and you can try and hide it from the scout.
I agree on the faster rally but not the hiding part. Maka's one (not hopetortue) was very easily scout-able.
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It allows him to keep his supply depos up during the rush so that the protoss can't sneak a probe/zealot into the base.
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Boboyo wins! That is pretty clever Boboyo.
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Wow, that's pretty clever. It just look dumb when Maka did it.
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I saw a game where some T built his rax a bit below his ramp and up a bit on scrap station purely to make his z opponent think there may be a fast proxy.
Too bad things like that aren't too effective now BLIZZARD.....
edit: think it was oGstheSTC (or something similiar to that)
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Back when I was trying to farm wins in Platinum/Diamond - which was about 2 months ago - I'd sometimes place my 2nd Barracks in a far off spot (similar placement as MakaPrime). I'd then build a Refinery right when the scout came along, which I'd stop at 499/500 to make it look like it was finished.
The opponent would think I was teching/turtling, but then I'd show up at their base with 8 Marines, a handful of SCVs, and win the game right there.
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Nice bobo and kagami. Some interesting uses indeed.
Hmmm, time to experiment.
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On October 20 2010 13:00 DoubleLariat wrote:
Nice bobo and kagami. Some interesting uses indeed.
Hmmm, time to experiment.
It worked better when you could go Barracks-first.
=(
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Boboyo's explanation is what I thought of when I saw the game.
I do like the term Maka Rax, for the starcraft community that is the height of awesomeness when it comes to naming things.
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i've noticed that they only seem to do it in TvP. maybe it's purpose is also to have vision of the natural expansion area, in case the protoss tries to warp in a proxy pylon or something.
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Yeah..I think Bobo's is the only explanation with any plausability, like Tastosis said again (when Tankboy did it today) it's almost super easily scoutable and the faster rally is negligable depending on where the expo is to the enemy main.
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It's got a few uses. Allows you to keep supply depots up, like Boboyo said. It allows for a faster rally so both marines arrive at around the same time. It also allows gives the false impression that you might be going 1 rax FE since he can only scout the 1 rax if you do it right.
Whether or not it's actually useful is up for grabs.
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On October 20 2010 12:53 Jonoman92 wrote:
I saw a game where some T built his rax a bit below his ramp and up a bit on scrap station purely to make his z opponent think there may be a fast proxy.
Too bad things like that aren't too effective now BLIZZARD.....
edit: think it was oGstheMTC (or something similiar to that)
did u see today's GSL games?
i think early pressure can be extremely effective if u do it right
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On October 20 2010 12:53 Jonoman92 wrote:
I saw a game where some T built his rax a bit below his ramp and up a bit on scrap station purely to make his z opponent think there may be a fast proxy.
Too bad things like that aren't too effective now BLIZZARD.....
edit: think it was oGstheMTC (or something similiar to that)
ogsthestc is a T player so probably him , oGsMC is a P player :D
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I think the "makarax" is actually a great little strategic move, heres why:
1. it really isnt as "risky" as tastosis claims, it is close enough to your main and easy to lift off if it is in jeopardy.
2. It gives you slightly greater vision around the entrance to your base
3. Perhaps most importantly, it MAY freak your opponent into deviating from what they would otherwise do. Getting them to overprepare for something that is completely normal is a great tactic. Conversely, it is ALSO detrimental if they dont scout it for some reason, then believing you only have 1 rax as opposed to 2
if youre going for a 2 rax play, then, why NOT do this?
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i think same reason for protoss also, building gateways in expansions.
i think it serves as faster rally and as extra meat to go through when the expansion is under attack.
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well today foxer at first game vs cool made rax hidden(not like maka rax) down at his natural.Fruit scouted just one rax and no gas so hes probbably assuming hes fast expanding.So its imo thing to trick or confuse your opponent.
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On October 28 2010 04:21 SpooN) wrote:
I think the "makarax" is actually a great little strategic move, heres why:
1. it really isnt as "risky" as tastosis claims, it is close enough to your main and easy to lift off if it is in jeopardy.
I'm not sure why they always make such a big deal about it because I agree with the points in the thread and especially this one. It's such little risk and it can make someone really screw up if they don't scout it and misread your open.
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On October 28 2010 04:27 guitarizt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 04:21 SpooN) wrote:
I think the "makarax" is actually a great little strategic move, heres why:
1. it really isnt as "risky" as tastosis claims, it is close enough to your main and easy to lift off if it is in jeopardy.
I'm not sure why they always make such a big deal about it because I agree with the points in the thread and especially this one. It's such little risk and it can make someone really screw up if they don't scout it and misread your open.
Because all commentators have the bad habit of making a big deal out of anything "non-standard."
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On October 28 2010 04:25 question wrote:
well today foxer at first game vs cool made rax hidden(not like maka rax) down at his natural.Fruit scouted just one rax and no gas so hes probbably assuming hes fast expanding.So its imo thing to trick or confuse your opponent.
Nah, a lesser player may see that, but fruit noticed the OC was missing
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They build it there for vision, faster rally, also the fact that you can use it later in the game. Lift it back into your base. Its better than a proxy rax, because ull have the same amount of units anyway.
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I actually really like this play as Terran, and frankly I think it could be successful even in cases where players can't later move buildings (i.e. Protoss).
Very many benefits and very few drawbacks.
Drawback - opponent 'could see easier', countered by benefit that they may not see it because it isn't where it would normally be.
Drawback - if needed to be floated loses production time.
Benefit - see above regarding scouting.
Benefit - rally time.
Benefit - unorthodox play. Honestly, just doing something that isn't expected or understood is likely to be a benefit in a strategy game where half the battle is figuring out what your opponent is doing.
In summary by building a rax outside of your base, but not so close to your opponent that it is considered a proxy, you are basically saying - you need to scout more/better/differently to your opponent, if they expect to gain the same amount of intel.
- dut
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artosis likes to exagerrate. everyone knows that. he was even very "disturbed" about how boxer keep patrol stacking his vikings and keep bringing it up every 5 sec.
although maka rax probably is only a 2 rax build which might throw an oppoent off just in case the opponent did not scout and assume 1 rax fe. Even if it is scouted, there is no difference from a normal 2 rax
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"It's purpose"? What is purpose?
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On October 20 2010 12:39 boboyo wrote:
It allows him to keep his supply depos up during the rush so that the protoss can't sneak a probe/zealot into the base.
Mr. SO HIGH LEVEL himself, Tasteless, did not even notice how high level this is. I'm shocked.
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On October 28 2010 05:30 RyanS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 12:39 boboyo wrote:
It allows him to keep his supply depos up during the rush so that the protoss can't sneak a probe/zealot into the base. Mr. SO HIGH LEVEL himself, Tasteless, did not even notice how high level this is. I'm shocked.
also he dint even know marauders have never been able to slow down massive units then he said "in a recent patch.." i loled.
either way the idea of maka rax intrigues me, it seems to have worked in all MU when well placed.
edit:failgrammar.
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If you are wondering why this didn't happen in SC1, buildings fly faster now.
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I was wondering about that. I think boboyo is right.
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I thought the point of this build was to feign a 1 Rax FE with 2/3 rax early game pressure?
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makarax just sounds soooo awesome but despite from being awesome as it is right now
i think just a little distraction purpose evo tho it could be place a little better
but as i said on my stream tonight already
PROXY RAX a rax which is beeing build next to your enemy's basea
HIDDEN RAX a rax which will be placed out of sight of your enemy
MAKARAX a rax which is placed at your natural expansion which 100% will be scouted by your enemy and possibly will lose your the game in the long run
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Uh,, I think it is short for proximity, which is Starcraft Jargon obviously since it isnt the official short for proximity..
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i got the impression that maka racks was just a term they used for poorly placed proxy racks.. cause maka tends to place his proxy racks in very easy to scout places.
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In starcraft, Proxy is short for Proximity. While IRL Proxy means a substitute for something else.
You are both correct and incorrect.
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I asked Cellawerra what he thought of it - he wasn't sure 
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On October 28 2010 04:21 SpooN) wrote:
I think the "makarax" is actually a great little strategic move, heres why:
1. it really isnt as "risky" as tastosis claims, it is close enough to your main and easy to lift off if it is in jeopardy.
2. It gives you slightly greater vision around the entrance to your base
3. Perhaps most importantly, it MAY freak your opponent into deviating from what they would otherwise do. Getting them to overprepare for something that is completely normal is a great tactic. Conversely, it is ALSO detrimental if they dont scout it for some reason, then believing you only have 1 rax as opposed to 2
if youre going for a 2 rax play, then, why NOT do this?
Easily scoutable?
You need to lift it to save it if your rush fail wasting like 10-20seconds of build times.
Your rush will fail as it does in all Maka Raxes. This is tradition.
So, basically, you are doing a 2 rax pressure, lose economy since you build early units/production facility instead of building scvs, do not gain a tech advantage and lose building time of marines when you fly the rax back into your base.
'Freak' factor is greater if your opponent can't scout you rather than seeing your production facilities in his face.
The benefit of not having to close/open supply depots is rather small if you are confident you can close them in time...
It's not good...
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On October 28 2010 07:58 STS17 wrote:In starcraft, Proxy is short for Proximity. While IRL Proxy means a substitute for something else. You are both correct and incorrect.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Proxy
He's right actually. It still means proxy. A proxy rax for example is a rax outside of your main base that acts on behalf of your base.
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yeah maka rax is terribad, no one would lose to that strategy. *eyes roll*
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On October 20 2010 12:39 boboyo wrote:
It allows him to keep his supply depos up during the rush so that the protoss can't sneak a probe/zealot into the base.
Im pretty sure that he made the 2nd rax outside even when he wasn't making a wall.
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If you guys have been watching a lot of games recently it's pretty obvious why you DON'T do this. It's one thing to hide it a little bit like TankBoyPrime (on Delta?) but to put it where Maka did on Steppes of War makes no sense at all. The keeping the depot up thing doesn't even make sense because you have another rax in your main... so are you only producing out of 1 rax? Or do you lower the depot anyway? Either way, bad.
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On October 28 2010 12:10 Neo.NEt wrote:
If you guys have been watching a lot of games recently it's pretty obvious why you DON'T do this. It's one thing to hide it a little bit like TankBoyPrime (on Delta?) but to put it where Maka did on Steppes of War makes no sense at all. The keeping the depot up thing doesn't even make sense because you have another rax in your main... so are you only producing out of 1 rax? Or do you lower the depot anyway? Either way, bad.
You should know what you're talking about before criticizing. Both rax can rally in front of depots if you place it outside, but if you build the 2nd rax inside, units will get stuck behind the wall which is made with the a barracks and depot/s.
I feel like it could be really effective, but it's just not being done right. Tankboy pushed it too much with too few units and failed. I don't recall the other situations in the other games, but it doesn't hurt at all if the intention was to do 2rax opening. It'd be stupid for a P to go after the proxy rax because it's close enough where the terran can/will easily defend then the P is in a bad position. It'd only be worth it for the P if he were trying to break the wall with a timing attack/rush, but that works both ways because the barracks will be a distraction or the units from the barracks will be a distraction/flank.
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On October 28 2010 12:48 kidd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 12:10 Neo.NEt wrote:
If you guys have been watching a lot of games recently it's pretty obvious why you DON'T do this. It's one thing to hide it a little bit like TankBoyPrime (on Delta?) but to put it where Maka did on Steppes of War makes no sense at all. The keeping the depot up thing doesn't even make sense because you have another rax in your main... so are you only producing out of 1 rax? Or do you lower the depot anyway? Either way, bad. You should know what you're talking about before criticizing. Both rax can rally in front of depots if you place it outside, but if you build the 2nd rax inside, units will get stuck behind the wall which is made with the a barracks and depot/s. I feel like it could be really effective, but it's just not being done right. Tankboy pushed it too much with too few units and failed. I don't recall the other situations in the other games, but it doesn't hurt at all if the intention was to do 2rax opening. It'd be stupid for a P to go after the proxy rax because it's close enough where the terran can/will easily defend then the P is in a bad position. It'd only be worth it for the P if he were trying to break the wall with a timing attack/rush, but that works both ways because the barracks will be a distraction or the units from the barracks will be a distraction/flank.
My apologies, I have too much self respect to play Terran. And I was just using the tankboy example because his maka rax didn't get scouted, while some of the ones I've seen Maka himself toss down are literally impossible to NOT see.
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On October 28 2010 11:20 totsky wrote:
yeah maka rax is terribad, no one would lose to that strategy. *eyes roll*
I just rofld irl omfg lololol gg omg omg omg
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I always thought the idea behind it is that you can start the second barracks before your first marine is out (without revealing your strategy to the scouting SCV).
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Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 12:10 Neo.NEt wrote:
If you guys have been watching a lot of games recently it's pretty obvious why you DON'T do this. It's one thing to hide it a little bit like TankBoyPrime (on Delta?) but to put it where Maka did on Steppes of War makes no sense at all. The keeping the depot up thing doesn't even make sense because you have another rax in your main... so are you only producing out of 1 rax? Or do you lower the depot anyway? Either way, bad. You should know what you're talking about before criticizing. Both rax can rally in front of depots if you place it outside, but if you build the 2nd rax inside, units will get stuck behind the wall which is made with the a barracks and depot/s.
Wtf? May be it's just me, but when I read his post it was clear he knew and discussed what you just said. (Only producing out of 1 rax = the other rines from the 2nd rax get stuck behind supply unless if you lower it, which seems to defeat one of the purposes).
On the other hand I like the rax placing a lot, the one where you build it outside of your main closer to your opponent but on the edge of your main-base-plateau, so that distances are a little shorter and you can float it back in easily.
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Maka Rax is just a badass strategy. Any game someone Maka Raxes, I consider them the winner.
Plus it makes for great surprise rushes and I think really can be used as a serious strong opening.
Can't wait to see next season GSL and see if there's a Maka Rax 2.0
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EPT
