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On October 15 2010 12:00 Plexa wrote:
The reaper nerf was completely needed in 2v2 - they basically rendered Protoss a useless race. Since most Terrans are playing mech these days nerfing reapers doesn't affect TvZ that much while dramatically increasing the effectiveness of Protoss in 2v2. I'm satisfied.
but starcraft isnt about 2v2 now is it
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Factory reaper requirement and depot barracks requirement are stupid.
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On October 15 2010 11:42 Speight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 11:22 minithor wrote:
And why ? to stop early proxy raxes ?
in starcraft we always have been able to do proxy raxes just like zerg has always been able to do 6 pools. Why would that not be ok anymore now and then only the terran side nerfed ? I don't think you're seeing the entire picture. With Zerg's 6 pool the set of 3 lings do not originate from a proxy location but must travel from their base. In order for Protoss to do some form of proxy cheese they require a pylon to go down first, but it's ok if Terran can 6 proxy rax someone? This isn't BW and Blizzard need to take into account that you have access to MULEs soon after the early rax goes down, thereby somewhat negating the economy hit you took by building a stupidly fast rax. It isn't like 6 pool is some unbeatable strategy, with good scv micro you will beat the lings. How do you think other Zs or Ps hold off the 6 pool? Or if you really need to hide behind a wall you could just finish it with another depot before the lings arrive.
but *6* pool is different than *10* rax. And zerg has the advantage when doing anything early that they can more easilly catch up drone count.
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On October 15 2010 11:58 SyyRaaaN wrote:
People are overreacting on the void ray nerf. Its the same good old void ray.
Today I got hit with a non-stop push. Constant assault with small groups of marines and zealots. My losses were constant, lings and drones and queens, now and then i'd lose a spine crawler (I had to lay down 3 while trapped) between the hp increase I never lost my spawning pool. Then I saw 3 void rays incomming. Previously this would just be GG. Now however I was able to start a hydralisk den. I managed to make 6 hydras during the assault as they nibbled away my hatch. Despite being fully charged my 6 hydras won that battle. I did lose the hatch though. Nonetheless - voidrays have been substancially nerfed. I cant believe anyone would try to hit a base with just a few now.
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So...
toss gets void nerfed, then nerfed again
then we get 2 more from lack of feedback to thors and corruptors? yeah... thats balanced.. /sarcasm
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On October 15 2010 12:12 Dr.Smoke wrote:
So...
toss gets void nerfed, then nerfed again
then we get 2 more from lack of feedback to thors and corruptors? yeah... thats balanced.. /sarcasm
the nexus HP buff is huge though, I don't even remember how many time I sniped the enemy nexus with 2 medivacs worth of marauders, plus medivacs are slower now it makes it a lot easier for stalkers to chase them down.
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true, but due to the ease of sniping buildings via marauders i think most of us can agree that buildings needed that buff, thats why i didn't mention that.
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On October 15 2010 11:42 Speight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 11:22 minithor wrote:
And why ? to stop early proxy raxes ?
in starcraft we always have been able to do proxy raxes just like zerg has always been able to do 6 pools. Why would that not be ok anymore now and then only the terran side nerfed ? I don't think you're seeing the entire picture. With Zerg's 6 pool the set of 3 lings do not originate from a proxy location but must travel from their base. In order for Protoss to do some form of proxy cheese they require a pylon to go down first, but it's ok if Terran can 6 proxy rax someone? This isn't BW and Blizzard need to take into account that you have access to MULEs soon after the early rax goes down, thereby somewhat negating the economy hit you took by building a stupidly fast rax.
This is a very good point, I didn't really think of it that way
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On October 15 2010 12:17 Sats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 11:42 Speight wrote:On October 15 2010 11:22 minithor wrote:
And why ? to stop early proxy raxes ?
in starcraft we always have been able to do proxy raxes just like zerg has always been able to do 6 pools. Why would that not be ok anymore now and then only the terran side nerfed ? I don't think you're seeing the entire picture. With Zerg's 6 pool the set of 3 lings do not originate from a proxy location but must travel from their base. In order for Protoss to do some form of proxy cheese they require a pylon to go down first, but it's ok if Terran can 6 proxy rax someone? This isn't BW and Blizzard need to take into account that you have access to MULEs soon after the early rax goes down, thereby somewhat negating the economy hit you took by building a stupidly fast rax. This is a very good point, I didn't really think of it that way
im only a casual terran player and I personally like the liberty of being able to have a different build order than protoss(namely worker-supply-rax), it's not the nerf is pissing a lot of people off, in fact, most of us cannot care less about the subtle balance changes cuz its not like we play sc2 for a living right?
the change made terran and protoss feel far too similar in terms of early openings imo.
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On October 15 2010 12:26 ToEiGht wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 12:17 Sats wrote:On October 15 2010 11:42 Speight wrote:On October 15 2010 11:22 minithor wrote:
And why ? to stop early proxy raxes ?
in starcraft we always have been able to do proxy raxes just like zerg has always been able to do 6 pools. Why would that not be ok anymore now and then only the terran side nerfed ? I don't think you're seeing the entire picture. With Zerg's 6 pool the set of 3 lings do not originate from a proxy location but must travel from their base. In order for Protoss to do some form of proxy cheese they require a pylon to go down first, but it's ok if Terran can 6 proxy rax someone? This isn't BW and Blizzard need to take into account that you have access to MULEs soon after the early rax goes down, thereby somewhat negating the economy hit you took by building a stupidly fast rax. This is a very good point, I didn't really think of it that way im only a casual terran player and I personally like the liberty of being able to have a different build order than protoss(namely worker-supply-rax), it's not the nerf is pissing a lot of people off, in fact, most of us cannot care less about the subtle balance changes cuz its not like we play sc2 for a living right? the change made terran and protoss feel far too similar in terms of early openings imo.
Terran could BBS and actually transition normally, after what should have been an allin cheese as the others are (BratOK seems to do this fairly often). If somehow mule could come online later BBS would be fine, but with the early mules it wasn't. It was the power of the early cheese without the important allin balance. When 6pool or proxy 10/10 gate or whatever fails, you can gg then and there. Terran just transitions to a normal 3rax.
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On October 15 2010 12:12 Xenom73 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 11:58 SyyRaaaN wrote:
People are overreacting on the void ray nerf. Its the same good old void ray. Today I got hit with a non-stop push. Constant assault with small groups of marines and zealots. My losses were constant, lings and drones and queens, now and then i'd lose a spine crawler (I had to lay down 3 while trapped) between the hp increase I never lost my spawning pool. Then I saw 3 void rays incomming. Previously this would just be GG. Now however I was able to start a hydralisk den. I managed to make 6 hydras during the assault as they nibbled away my hatch. Despite being fully charged my 6 hydras won that battle. I did lose the hatch though. Nonetheless - voidrays have been substancially nerfed. I cant believe anyone would try to hit a base with just a few now.
I believe the role of VR has changed substantially with this patch. It can still serve as a harass option, but no longer as game-ending as before. It now has a more integrated role to serve alongside the Protoss army rather than a gimmick. I like it, though I hope Blizzard can revert the range nerf now the charged beam is not as threatening.
Has anyone tried using it with Phoenixes, now that it's uncharged beam actually worth something?
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On October 15 2010 11:58 Darpa wrote:
Happy to see the void ray nerf, it was long overdue. that said, terran drops took an absolute beating in this patch. ><
That said, i see this evening out matches alot. The only concern I have, is drops against protoss are the only way to match their late game army. (because its really impossible to fight it head on when its 200/200). I guess we will see! seems fairly reasonable to me tho
edit. remove the reaper and give us the predator! i loved that unit.
Should be easier to fight protoss at 200/200 now with thors in your arsenal. Collossi aren't very good against thors.
What excites me is that more thors means a chance of seeing more carriers.
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A Protoss used a couple of voidrays vs me. He was harassing workers and completely ignored queen and hatch. They seem to be useless now. I don't need to build 4-5 queens, 3 is enough to be safe.
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Blizzard fail. Totally finished butchering Toss and I'll bet anyone $10 they'll never win a major tournament.
There are 4 units of Toss which won't be built due to basically worthless function. VR, DT, Carriers and MS. And HT crippled against Corrupter and Thor.
2 units Terran won't build. Reaper made worthless by time, and hellion made worthless by roach range, can't kite at all.
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On October 15 2010 12:48 tdt wrote:
Blizzard fail. Totally finished butchering Toss and I'll bet anyone $10 they'll never win a major tournament.
There are 4 units of Toss which won't be built due to basically worthless function. VR, DT, Carriers and MS. And HT crippled against Corrupter and Thor.
2 units Terran won't build. Reaper made worthless by time, and hellion made worthless by roach range, can't kite at all.
DTs are great when the opponent doesn't have detection, (which happens more than you would think.)
Carriers and motherships are great when you actually manage to get them. I wouldn't call that worthless function.
They just all take so long to build. : <
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Does anyone else think that SCVs should be the auto-target when they are repairing instead of the thor? it is impossible to target them with the 3d modeling.
And also why wasn't the cost of void rays lowered since they were obviously uber-nerfed into the dirt. They should be 200/100 at most.
Tanks are fucking 100/100 and are 10000x more useful than VR now.
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On October 15 2010 12:48 tdt wrote:
Blizzard fail. Totally finished butchering Toss and I'll bet anyone $10 they'll never win a major tournament.
There are 4 units of Toss which won't be built due to basically worthless function. VR, DT, Carriers and MS. And HT crippled against Corrupter and Thor.
2 units Terran won't build. Reaper made worthless by time, and hellion made worthless by roach range, can't kite at all.
according to Gretorp carriers are necessary in PvT... theres no reason not to get them.. check day9's friend day wednesday #195 and then huk has been incorporating carriers into his PvT as well.. i cannot speak for any other players because i just havent seen any interviews or replays or even streams recently..
but you wont see THAT many carriers because its a tier 3 unit and even then its only 1 tech choice
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On October 15 2010 12:11 minithor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 11:42 Speight wrote:On October 15 2010 11:22 minithor wrote:
And why ? to stop early proxy raxes ?
in starcraft we always have been able to do proxy raxes just like zerg has always been able to do 6 pools. Why would that not be ok anymore now and then only the terran side nerfed ? I don't think you're seeing the entire picture. With Zerg's 6 pool the set of 3 lings do not originate from a proxy location but must travel from their base. In order for Protoss to do some form of proxy cheese they require a pylon to go down first, but it's ok if Terran can 6 proxy rax someone? This isn't BW and Blizzard need to take into account that you have access to MULEs soon after the early rax goes down, thereby somewhat negating the economy hit you took by building a stupidly fast rax. It isn't like 6 pool is some unbeatable strategy, with good scv micro you will beat the lings. How do you think other Zs or Ps hold off the 6 pool? Or if you really need to hide behind a wall you could just finish it with another depot before the lings arrive. but *6* pool is different than *10* rax. And zerg has the advantage when doing anything early that they can more easilly catch up drone count.
LoL. You never tried playing zerg, did you?
When you try to drone up after failed/blocked 6 pool couple of hellions will arrive before you catchup with eco. No speed, no roach, no spine is gg for zerg.
6 pool was allin, meaning do or die.
10 rax is viable strategy where you can transition pretty safe to anything. MULE will catchup your eco for sure. You can also sell your bunker in case your rush failed and build one at your ramp.
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On October 15 2010 12:52 TedJustice wrote:
DTs are great when the opponent doesn't have detection, (which happens more than you would think.)
Carriers and motherships are great when you actually manage to get them. I wouldn't call that worthless function.
They just all take so long to build. : <
Thats what worhtless means in my book. If the unit needs soooo efing long to be build, so that your adversary has enough time to make a crap tonne of T1 units and own you with those, I see no point in teching to those higher tier units. Worthless. And this is the case with DTs, Carriers and Mothersips.
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On October 15 2010 12:39 PandaPolice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 12:12 Xenom73 wrote:On October 15 2010 11:58 SyyRaaaN wrote:
People are overreacting on the void ray nerf. Its the same good old void ray. Today I got hit with a non-stop push. Constant assault with small groups of marines and zealots. My losses were constant, lings and drones and queens, now and then i'd lose a spine crawler (I had to lay down 3 while trapped) between the hp increase I never lost my spawning pool. Then I saw 3 void rays incomming. Previously this would just be GG. Now however I was able to start a hydralisk den. I managed to make 6 hydras during the assault as they nibbled away my hatch. Despite being fully charged my 6 hydras won that battle. I did lose the hatch though. Nonetheless - voidrays have been substancially nerfed. I cant believe anyone would try to hit a base with just a few now. I believe the role of VR has changed substantially with this patch. It can still serve as a harass option, but no longer as game-ending as before. It now has a more integrated role to serve alongside the Protoss army rather than a gimmick. I like it, though I hope Blizzard can revert the range nerf now the charged beam is not as threatening. Has anyone tried using it with Phoenixes, now that it's uncharged beam actually worth something?
Voids rays cant harass anymore vs zerg. They cant kill a queen 1v1. Void rays also dont do enough burst damage to kill workers. you probably get one before the queen forces you to retreat and recharge shields.
I don't think anyone will complain about it being a more army-based unit as opposed to a all-or-nothing game ender, but its just that it was almost completely nerfed with few benefits at all. Balance doesnt apply to players not at the highest levels, and those players almost always attacked with full charge voids after charging on zeals/pylons.
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EPT
