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On October 15 2010 09:45 Raiden X wrote:
Reapers are still good early game without the speed, right up until they start pumping out alot of roaches. During this time you can expand. Then you get the factory you upgrade speed making it the fastest unit off creep and use them to harass and back stab.
Personally i feel that the build time should be reduced in light of all the recent nerfs. If not then at least give them more HP
Not true, reapers used to check zerg's fast expansions, and then zerg used to get speed lings to counter the reapers, and reapers used to get speed upgrade to keep it competitive.
Now, mass reapers to check zerg's expansion won't be an option, because would speed reapers, speed lings would surround in a half second. As it is, speed lings still beat speed reapers and would surround them if they weren't careful, now it's a no-contest and a no-option. Between not being able to 9 rax and not being able to build speed reapers, zerg are more free to FE at the beginning of a game, knowing that even speed lings are no longer a neccessity.
Did you see the fruitdealer vs hatetorture games? It's already hard enough for terran to check zerg's fast expansion, with this patch it's going to get even worse.
I myself have no problem checking other diamond player zergs from fast expanding via marines and hellions, but i respected Morrow and other players that could keep them in check with reapers alone. It required a lot of micro, and macro (because you need to take the excess resources and fast expand yourself, to keep up with the zerg's FE), and it was a good early aggression tactic that had a good alternative in case it didn't work. My marine/hellion denial has a larger success rate of denying the expansion, but it's all in. Because if I don't get the expansion down and vikings up by the time he hits mutas, it's over. Whereas reaper/expand you can give up on the aggression and bunker down with your expansion and have a chance. Now when a zerg fast expands, you either have to fast expand with them, or all in with marines and hellions to prevent it. The middle option has been removed.
Ryan
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Australia89 Posts
Voids were ridiculous in team games, since that's what people kept getting. However, protoss air is pretty weak except for the carrier (but who ever gets them out in 1v1's). The void nerf will help team games but I've never been a fan of balancing team games and 1v1's (like how blizz tries to balance PvE and PvP in WoW).
Roach range is awesome. The change is so noticeable. Hellion kiting is way harder.
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Twas the night before DC and they decided to patch..(insert rest of poem later)
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On October 15 2010 09:57 wrgrbl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 15 2010 09:51 Crichton wrote:Show nested quote + Add a couple things like a separate rally point for overlords so the units I need to click aren't buried underneath them all Not for nothing, but here's a good method for getting around that problem: 1. Hit hotkey for hatcheries 2. Hit hotkey for larva 3. Hit hotkey to make overlord 4. Click spawn point Now the overlord will go exactly where you want, rather than getting bunched up with the rest of your units. What if you need to make overlords at the same time you're making other units? 1. Hit hotkey for hatcheries 2. Hit hotkey for all the crazy amazing Zerg attacking units/drones you want to make 3. Hit hotkey for hatcheries 4. Hit hotkey for overlords 5. Click to set spawn point If this seems like an epic amount of micro, remember that Terran and Protoss have to decide where to place each and every one of their supply units. If you're in a hurry, you can always let them get bunched up—T/P don't have this luxury. As for a separate spawning point for overlords: do you really want a farm of all your overlords so they can get picked off? As you get better at the game, you'll learn that you want to manually place each and every overlord for the best strategic value. Setting spawn points for the larva is the perfect start for that. Thanks for that. Practicing it now. It never even occurred to me that setting the rally point after making units only applied to the units since I now have only larva selected instead of the hatches.
No problem! I hope more Zerg start doing this. In team games, my ally always ends up with a bunch of Ovies rallying to the battle—he gets supply blocked, and we lose. ^^
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Patch has been out for like 5 hours and already the terran crytrain is on the loose.
"Oh noes I can't a-move and win anymore ! My world falls apart !"
;-)
User was banned for this post.
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On October 15 2010 10:05 opl3sa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 09:45 Raiden X wrote:
Reapers are still good early game without the speed, right up until they start pumping out alot of roaches. During this time you can expand. Then you get the factory you upgrade speed making it the fastest unit off creep and use them to harass and back stab.
Personally i feel that the build time should be reduced in light of all the recent nerfs. If not then at least give them more HP Not true, reapers used to check zerg's fast expansions, and then zerg used to get speed lings to counter the reapers, and reapers used to get speed upgrade to keep it competitive. Now, mass reapers to check zerg's expansion won't be an option, because would speed reapers, speed lings would surround in a half second. As it is, speed lings still beat speed reapers and would surround them if they weren't careful, now it's a no-contest and a no-option. Between not being able to 9 rax and not being able to build speed reapers, zerg are more free to FE at the beginning of a game, knowing that even speed lings are no longer a neccessity. Did you see the fruitdealer vs hatetorture games? It's already hard enough for terran to check zerg's fast expansion, with this patch it's going to get even worse. I myself have no problem checking other diamond player zergs from fast expanding via marines and hellions, but i respected Morrow and other players that could keep them in check with reapers alone. It required a lot of micro, and macro (because you need to take the excess resources and fast expand yourself, to keep up with the zerg's FE), and it was a good early aggression tactic that had a good alternative in case it didn't work. My marine/hellion denial has a larger success rate of denying the expansion, but it's all in. Because if I don't get the expansion down and vikings up by the time he hits mutas, it's over. Whereas reaper/expand you can give up on the aggression and bunker down with your expansion and have a chance. Now when a zerg fast expands, you either have to fast expand with them, or all in with marines and hellions to prevent it. The middle option has been removed. Ryan
if ur expanding after zergling speed finishes, thats not a fast expo nemore. reapers can still prevent the hatch before pool kind of stuff
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On October 15 2010 10:06 lu_natik wrote:
Voids were ridiculous in team games, since that's what people kept getting. However, protoss air is pretty weak except for the carrier (but who ever gets them out in 1v1's). The void nerf will help team games but I've never been a fan of balancing team games and 1v1's (like how blizz tries to balance PvE and PvP in WoW).
Roach range is awesome. The change is so noticeable. Hellion kiting is way harder.
HuK does!
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On October 15 2010 09:30 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 09:27 SilentCrono wrote:
barracks requires a supply depot? why did they do that exactly? Reapers in team games were overpowered apparently.
Or maybe it's because Terran had the option of 2 rax before depot to deny any early expo attempts harrass the Zerg and go Overlord hunting.
And then have the option of getting an early OC to spam mule and make up for any economic disadvangtage that doing such an aggressive opening may have caused.
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I'm glad to see that the phoenix bug got fixed 
I wasn't expecting so many +life building buffs; interesting. My dark templar vs. Zerg bases won't be as effective now  Oh well. Apparently it's necessary.
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Australia89 Posts
On October 15 2010 10:16 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 10:06 lu_natik wrote:
Voids were ridiculous in team games, since that's what people kept getting. However, protoss air is pretty weak except for the carrier (but who ever gets them out in 1v1's). The void nerf will help team games but I've never been a fan of balancing team games and 1v1's (like how blizz tries to balance PvE and PvP in WoW).
Roach range is awesome. The change is so noticeable. Hellion kiting is way harder. HuK does!
Heh HuK doesnt count. He's too awesome with his hoodie.
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the voidray changes are too drastic or the supply/cost should be adjusted accordingly i mean come on toss vs air was weak already how are vr now supposed to counter bcs then, in a 4:1 ratio?
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As a toss, I'm meh with this patch. The VR speed upgrade I agree with Blizz, I thought it was a little too fast. I had no idea the PDD bug was even a bug, I thought Blizz did it on purpose, I thank Blizz for fixing this.
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Nice to see the buffs for the zerg. Thor cannon changes is interesting, maybe they are trying to encourage its use as you rarely see it used in game.
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On October 15 2010 09:22 Yokoblue wrote:
OMg we can NO LONGER pylon Block - cannon !
No Longer pylon block cannon.... roach can hit them without being hit.... OMG
if this is true then... HELL YES! havent tested this can anyone confirm?
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I agree with whoever said that they should have made the tech lab require a supply depot instead of the barracks. There are so many conceivable ways other than reapers why T would want to cut some SCVs and now they are all gone.
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On October 15 2010 10:25 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 09:22 Yokoblue wrote:
OMg we can NO LONGER pylon Block - cannon !
No Longer pylon block cannon.... roach can hit them without being hit.... OMG if this is true then... HELL YES! havent tested this can anyone confirm?
It is true, it was one of the major reasons for the range buff.
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Reapers are now almost completely useless against Zerg. Build Time nerf, Rax Nerf, Speed Upgrade nerf, and Roach Attack Range Buff = No more reaper play vs Zerg.
Im afraid ZvZ is gonna be only Roach, Infester, Ultras. And PvZ may become very Roach heavy. I always thought the roach was too strong. Now it seems broken.
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Hey there!
Just patched my game a few minutes ago but when i start the game i can't search for any game... there is not even the chioce for a race available and the custom games shows me always "No match found"
Somone with same problems? I'm on EU.
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On October 15 2010 09:53 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 09:41 Antisocialmunky wrote:
The thing is that 11OC vs 15OC only holds true if you mule once more than your opponent the whole game. You still get a slightly lower return in the long run because you are short by 4 SCVs and you didn't have those 4 extra SCVs when you were building your OC. You get 2 SCVs back when they OC in a TvT but really it just breaks evenish. It's closer to 2 scvs lost..... And an earlier mule to get you 300 minerals quicker. You're up about 200 minerals for a very brief time. Although you get your gas a little later. I've used a 10 rax opening for pretty much every game as T (sometimes going for a 11 gas into a fast factory with my OC delayed to 17, other times getting my OC at 12) that I've played since the middle of the beta..... And now I can't do it anymore. 
More importantly, an 11 OC lets you use a supply calldown right when you hit 19 food. Those 100 instant minerals couple with the quick boost from your early mule lets you do a fast expand where you have marines out before the standard timing and lets you go to 38 food on one depot, letting you afford it all.
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EPT
