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On November 11 2010 21:19 icezar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 20:46 PrideNeverDie wrote:
anyone figure out the best possible economic opening for zerg?
i saw a 13 pool 16 hatch build shown If you consider only minerals then the best i found was: 9 Overlord 15 Hatchery > transfer 2 16 spawning Pool 16 Overlord 19 queen 23 queen 25 Overlord 29 spawn larvae 29 spawn larvae 36 Overlord [4] 36 spawn larvae that is using pen and paper because you cannot ask EC for best econ. now, if you want to add gas... it depends on how much do you value it over minerals...
Putting into EC (I just told it to make 150 drones), it decided that
10 Overlord
10 ExtractorTrick
15 SpawningPool
16 Overlord
16 Hatchery (taking your nat)
17 Queen
19 Hatchery (taking your third)
24 Overlord
28 Hatchery (taking a fourth)
29 Overlord
33 Queen
35 Overlord
40 Queen
42 Queen
44 Hatchery (taking a fifth)
etc etc
is the best way to make 120 drones. That doesn't always mean "best economy", but that's one way to look at it.
And yes, I know taking five bases without any offensive units isn't viable.
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no it is not, because i did that also, ask for 32 drones on 2 base to maximize the income.
It turns out that even thou i get my 32 probes later (i think 15sec later) i am constantly over 100 min ahead with my build :-(
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What does it mean when the each process reaches a stable single score? Does that mean it's given up?
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For the new protoss version, Id like to request the ability to add multiple goals. For example, if I want a zealot, two sentries and a stalker in 5 minutes and then a carrier as fast as possible.
Also, the ability to have upgrade, so you can plan a +1 timing push, or to get high templar with psi storm asap.
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has anyone tried using this with a nueronet processor? a learning computer? my cpu is one.
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I have a suggestion and a possible bug report for Carbon's program:
First, consider allowing only 6 probes on gas per base, even though theoretically 7 would be slightly better, since no one AFAIK does it in real games (or maybe have an option to choose).
Second, I think I have a bug: When I ask the program for 4 DTs within a large time limit, say 500 seconds, it almost immediately comes out with a build that will get them out in around 400 seconds. However, when I request the same thing within 420 seconds, it will fail forever (or at least for 10 minutes, which is forever for me  ).
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I try to ask a lot of gateway units so i can find when WG are better but it will never transform the GWs to WGs :-( althow in another build i sow it can do it.
Is it faster to get units from GW? i do not think so.
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Great stuff CarbonTwelve, thanks for releasing this into Google Code ^_^
When you say you need to run it in VS2010, is this because you build it with VS or is there actually Windows-specific C++ code? If there is, is it just GUI code, or is the core also Windows-only?
I'm also a software engineer and also considered piggybacking on the ideas of Evo Chamber, but am more of a *nix + Makefile + Vim + Git flavored code hippie, and was wondering if I could run it using my more familiar tools :-).
Excellent work though, I look forward to playing with it, and thanks for putting the time/love ^_^
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On November 12 2010 07:02 sicp wrote:
When you say you need to run it in VS2010, is this because you build it with VS or is there actually Windows-specific C++ code? If there is, is it just GUI code, or is the core also Windows-only?
Doesn't have to be 'run' in VS2010, just built in it. There's both Windows GUI code (MFC) and Windows specific stuff in the core unfortunately. I'll probably release a command line format one so that people can build it in VS2010 express, or I might even just use a xplat GUI if I get time to learn one. Either way though, the Windows specific stuff in the core will need to be sorted out (primarily the threading and TLS code).
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On November 11 2010 19:23 CarbonTwelve wrote:Ok, I've just uploaded the first version of my app to GoogleCode: http://code.google.com/p/scbuildorder/Please please forgive me for the rough code, wildly varying coding styles (some of the memory pool stuff I think I wrote about 8 years ago), and the very very basic GUI. It's all a work in progress and it's a very early version Anyway, there's an executable there too, so please feel free to try it out and if you notice any issues with the build orders it produces please let me know. Feature requests might have to be on hold atm as there's a crapload left that I want/need to do before niceties are done  Note: you'll need the 32 bit visual studio 2010 redistributables to run this. You can get them free from Microsoft (~5MB download): http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?familyid=A7B7A05E-6DE6-4D3A-A423-37BF0912DB84&displaylang=en
Sweet. Thank you so much.
I'd prefer if you change the time output to be in minutes:seconds, makes for easier reading.
Also it needs a summary like in Evolution Chamber, an easy way to see what units and upgrades the build produced.
Does each evolution mean that it has found a better build order? A timer telling you when the last time it updated the build order would be good.
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My first protoss bo from CarbonTwelve's app:
6 stalkers 2 immortals in 6.27 minutes, after 40k evolutions:
+ Show Spoiler +
0.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
17.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
34.00: 107M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
41.63: 100M 0G 23E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
51.65: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
68.65: 95M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
68.65: 45M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
79.98: 126M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
88.89: 146M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
91.40: 165M 0G 1E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
102.73: 213M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
102.73: 163M 0G 8E 14/ 18S - Build Gateway
109.97: 75M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Assimilator
116.65: 52M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
133.65: 171M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
133.65: 121M 0G 25E 16/ 18S - Build Pylon
133.65: 21M 0G 25E 16/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
139.97: 83M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
139.97: 83M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Build Assimilator
144.98: 51M 4G 7E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
144.98: 1M 4G 7E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
157.65: 127M 21G 14E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
167.73: 183M 35G 19E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core
174.65: 102M 44G 23E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
174.65: 52M 44G 23E 19/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
177.78: 83M 50G 25E 19/ 26S - Chrono Nexus
177.78: 83M 50G 0E 19/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
187.03: 174M 74G 5E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
198.65: 247M 103G 12E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
198.65: 197M 103G 12E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
215.65: 226M 146G 21E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
217.73: 200M 151G 22E 22/ 26S - Build Robotics Facility
226.63: 100M 73G 27E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon
226.63: 0M 73G 27E 22/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
236.26: 100M 103G 33E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon
248.11: 125M 140G 40E 22/ 26S - Build Stalker
248.11: 0M 90G 40E 24/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
263.65: 174M 145G 48E 24/ 42S - Build Stalker
282.73: 263M 164G 59E 26/ 42S - Build Immortal
292.75: 125M 100G 65E 30/ 42S - Build Stalker
305.65: 144M 96G 72E 32/ 42S - Build Stalker
334.75: 345M 150G 88E 34/ 42S - Build Stalker
337.73: 254M 111G 90E 36/ 42S - Build Immortal
337.73: 4M 11G 90E 40/ 42S - Chrono Robotics Facility
348.68: 126M 50G 71E 40/ 42S - Build Stalker
348.68: 1M 0G 71E 42/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
357.73: 103M 32G 51E 42/ 42S - Chrono Robotics Facility
357.73: 103M 32G 26E 42/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
376.68: 315M 100G 12E 42/ 42S - Satisfied.
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On November 12 2010 08:50 Dionyseus wrote:
I'd prefer if you change the time output to be in minutes:seconds, makes for easier reading.
Yeah, will do at some point.
Also it needs a summary like in Evolution Chamber, an easy way to see what units and upgrades the build produced.
Yep, ok.
Does each evolution mean that it has found a better build order? A timer telling you when the last time it updated the build order would be good.
No, each evolution is an evolution of the main 'city', in GA terms. So basically it's breeded & mutated a full generation of chromosomes.
I'm planning to add more info that tells you what the city & each village is doing in terms of games/evolutions/stagnation/etc. You'll also be able to set the details for the villages at some point too (number of villages & population of each), as well as the city's details (chromosomes migrate from the villages to the city).
On November 12 2010 09:00 Dionyseus wrote:My first protoss bo from CarbonTwelve's app: 6 stalkers 2 immortals in 6.27 minutes, after 40k evolutions: + Show Spoiler +
11.63: 100M 0G 7E 6/ 10S - Build Pylon
52.72: 150M 0G 30E 6/ 18S - Build Gateway
73.27: 75M 0G 41E 6/ 18S - Build Assimilator
103.27: 110M 0G 58E 6/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
117.72: 162M 10G 66E 6/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
130.31: 50M 19G 73E 6/ 18S - Build Probe
130.31: 0M 19G 73E 7/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
167.72: 126M 71G 94E 7/ 18S - Build Stalker
167.72: 1M 21G 94E 9/ 18S - Chrono Gateway
167.72: 1M 21G 69E 9/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
187.72: 61M 59G 81E 9/ 18S - Chrono Gateway
195.72: 85M 75G 60E 9/ 18S - Satisfied.
Very strange. Mine gets this after just a couple of minutes and 10k evolutions:
+ Show Spoiler +
0.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
17.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
34.00: 107M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
41.63: 100M 0G 23E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
51.65: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
68.65: 95M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
68.65: 45M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
79.98: 126M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
88.89: 146M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
91.40: 165M 0G 1E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
95.44: 150M 0G 4E 13/ 18S - Build Gateway
102.73: 57M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
110.61: 75M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Assimilator
116.65: 52M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
133.33: 167M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
133.54: 169M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
133.54: 119M 0G 0E 16/ 18S - Build Pylon
140.61: 89M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
140.61: 89M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Build Assimilator
144.88: 51M 3G 6E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
144.88: 1M 3G 6E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
157.65: 127M 21G 14E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
164.54: 150M 31G 18E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core
164.54: 0M 31G 18E 18/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
174.65: 94M 50G 23E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
191.65: 223M 83G 33E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
191.65: 173M 83G 33E 20/ 26S - Build Gateway
191.65: 23M 83G 33E 20/ 26S - Chrono Nexus
191.65: 23M 83G 8E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
191.65: 23M 83G 8E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
202.98: 128M 118G 14E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
215.65: 211M 157G 21E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
219.10: 200M 168G 23E 22/ 26S - Build Robotics Facility
230.95: 125M 104G 30E 22/ 26S - Build Stalker
239.72: 100M 81G 35E 24/ 26S - Build Pylon
256.65: 190M 133G 44E 24/ 26S - Build Stalker
259.81: 100M 93G 46E 26/ 26S - Build Pylon
284.10: 272M 168G 60E 26/ 34S - Build Immortal
284.10: 22M 68G 60E 30/ 34S - Move Probe To Gas
293.30: 125M 101G 65E 30/ 42S - Build Stalker
304.46: 125M 91G 71E 32/ 42S - Build Stalker
335.30: 345M 152G 89E 34/ 42S - Build Stalker
339.10: 263M 115G 91E 36/ 42S - Build Immortal
339.10: 13M 15G 91E 40/ 42S - Chrono Robotics Facility
349.10: 125M 51G 71E 40/ 42S - Build Stalker
349.10: 0M 1G 71E 42/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
359.10: 112M 37G 52E 42/ 42S - Chrono Robotics Facility
359.10: 112M 37G 27E 42/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
377.10: 314M 101G 12E 42/ 42S - Satisfied.
Edit: Just thinking about it, what did you set as the time limit? Although, that shouldn't be it, as it has 'Satisfied'...
Anyway, a few people have mentioned setting the time limit as making things worse, and yes, sometimes it will. Having a large time limit isn't a bad thing for my app - quite the opposite actually. It only makes things slightly slower until it finds the first successful build order, and then after that the time limit is pretty much irrelevant. If you set the time limit somewhat low, then it struggles to find that first build order, and hence it makes things a lot worse.
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On November 12 2010 09:12 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 09:00 Dionyseus wrote:My first protoss bo from CarbonTwelve's app: 6 stalkers 2 immortals in 6.27 minutes, after 40k evolutions: + Show Spoiler +
11.63: 100M 0G 7E 6/ 10S - Build Pylon
52.72: 150M 0G 30E 6/ 18S - Build Gateway
73.27: 75M 0G 41E 6/ 18S - Build Assimilator
103.27: 110M 0G 58E 6/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
117.72: 162M 10G 66E 6/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
130.31: 50M 19G 73E 6/ 18S - Build Probe
130.31: 0M 19G 73E 7/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
167.72: 126M 71G 94E 7/ 18S - Build Stalker
167.72: 1M 21G 94E 9/ 18S - Chrono Gateway
167.72: 1M 21G 69E 9/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
187.72: 61M 59G 81E 9/ 18S - Chrono Gateway
195.72: 85M 75G 60E 9/ 18S - Satisfied.
Very strange. Mine gets this after just a couple of minutes and 10k evolutions: + Show Spoiler +
0.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
17.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
34.00: 107M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
41.63: 100M 0G 23E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
51.65: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
68.65: 95M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
68.65: 45M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
79.98: 126M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
88.89: 146M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
91.40: 165M 0G 1E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
95.44: 150M 0G 4E 13/ 18S - Build Gateway
102.73: 57M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
110.61: 75M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Assimilator
116.65: 52M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
133.33: 167M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
133.54: 169M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
133.54: 119M 0G 0E 16/ 18S - Build Pylon
140.61: 89M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
140.61: 89M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Build Assimilator
144.88: 51M 3G 6E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
144.88: 1M 3G 6E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
157.65: 127M 21G 14E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
164.54: 150M 31G 18E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core
164.54: 0M 31G 18E 18/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
174.65: 94M 50G 23E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
191.65: 223M 83G 33E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
191.65: 173M 83G 33E 20/ 26S - Build Gateway
191.65: 23M 83G 33E 20/ 26S - Chrono Nexus
191.65: 23M 83G 8E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
191.65: 23M 83G 8E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
202.98: 128M 118G 14E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
215.65: 211M 157G 21E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
219.10: 200M 168G 23E 22/ 26S - Build Robotics Facility
230.95: 125M 104G 30E 22/ 26S - Build Stalker
239.72: 100M 81G 35E 24/ 26S - Build Pylon
256.65: 190M 133G 44E 24/ 26S - Build Stalker
259.81: 100M 93G 46E 26/ 26S - Build Pylon
284.10: 272M 168G 60E 26/ 34S - Build Immortal
284.10: 22M 68G 60E 30/ 34S - Move Probe To Gas
293.30: 125M 101G 65E 30/ 42S - Build Stalker
304.46: 125M 91G 71E 32/ 42S - Build Stalker
335.30: 345M 152G 89E 34/ 42S - Build Stalker
339.10: 263M 115G 91E 36/ 42S - Build Immortal
339.10: 13M 15G 91E 40/ 42S - Chrono Robotics Facility
349.10: 125M 51G 71E 40/ 42S - Build Stalker
349.10: 0M 1G 71E 42/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
359.10: 112M 37G 52E 42/ 42S - Chrono Robotics Facility
359.10: 112M 37G 27E 42/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
377.10: 314M 101G 12E 42/ 42S - Satisfied.
Oops I somehow didn't copy paste the whole bo. I fixed it now. btw I'm having problems with carriers, sent you a pm.
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suggestions for zerg build order optimizer:
limit tech buildings to the number of simultaneous upgrades available or have user defined upper limit
It is really disheartening to see 3 lairs and 3 spires in the build orders.
The program also seems to build way too many hatcheries. There's also problems with distinguishing bases from simply additional hatcheries. Also, I see a lot of 5-8 geyser builds along with these many hatcheries. It would be nice to limit the number of available bases as well.
It would also be awesome to manually input a build as a seed or manually edit the current build.
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THIS IS AWESOME.
I was playing around with a version of a 2 Hatch Muta Build vs T. I added some zerglings in the earlier stage of the build, forced it to expand early and get two queens. It looks something like this:
+ Show Spoiler +10 ExtractorTrick M:78 G:0 11 Overlord M:100 G:0 15 SpawningPool M:206 G:0 16 Overlord M:265 G:0 16 Hatchery M:306 G:0 15 Extractor M:27 G:0 16 Queen M:155 G:0 22 Zergling M:435 G:115 23 BanelingNest M:385 G:115 22 Overlord M:446 G  4 23 Queen M:296 G 4 25 Lair M:178 G:100 31 Overlord M:113 G:64 31 Zergling M:54 G:70 32 Zergling M:75 G:79 33 Extractor M:25 G:79 32 Zergling M:60 G:87 33 Zergling M:177 G:108 37 Zergling M:53 G:117 42 Spire M:205 G:203 43 Overlord M:103 G:49 44 Overlord M:107 G:83 46 Extractor M:206 G:144 48 Zergling M:199 G:178 50 Zergling M:136 G:185 51 Extractor M:86 G:185 52 MetabolicBoost M:109 G:216 53 Overlord M:108 G:142 55 Overlord M:119 G:194 55 Zergling M:62 G:205 60 Overlord M:187 G:338 60 Zergling M:87 G:338 62 Zergling M:51 G:361 63 Overlord M:112 G:399 63 Mutalisk M:102 G:429 65 Mutalisk M:115 G:367 67 Mutalisk M:106 G:298 69 Mutalisk M:120 G:236 72 Mutalisk M:106 G:181 74 Mutalisk M:120 G:119 76 Mutalisk M:272 G:103 78 Zergling M:172 G:3 79 Zergling M:122 G:3 81 Zergling M:68 G:18 82 Overlord M:110 G:48 82 Zergling M:56 G:64 87 Zergling M:59 G:147 88 Zergling M:55 G:162 89 Zergling M:52 G:178 90 Mutalisk M:188 G:238 92 Mutalisk M:111 G:146 At time: 8:58 Minerals: 69 Gas: 54 Supply: 94/100 Larva: 0 Drones: 54 Overlords: 12 Queens: 2 Zerglings: 30 Mutalisks: 7 Hatcheries: 1 Lairs: 1 Gas Extractors: 4 Spawning Pools: 1 Baneling Nest: 1 Spire: 1 Metabolic Boost I'm broke, got 8 free supply left, got 7 Mutas and 30 speedlings at 9 Minutes....
What astonishes me: It rarely goes Hatch first. Always pool around 14-18 and then hatch immediately afterwards. Only if you apt for really economic builds, it goes hatch first.
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Is there a repository somewhere of builds this application have figured out?
This thread has been going for so long and my perception is still that the only thing that came out of it is the initial 7RR.
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Maybe I'm retarded...but I can't find the "go" button. I checked all the tabs and there isn't anything on there.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/av4Rs.jpg)
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There is a bug in latest ver. with small resolutions.
Try to use an older ver. until this is fixed. The "internal: build already has this fixed.
I think a new release will be soon.
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On November 13 2010 16:40 LooKe wrote:Maybe I'm retarded...but I can't find the "go" button. I checked all the tabs and there isn't anything on there.
Yea it's above the deadline. I experience the same problem, but if you go full screen (maximize button) it sometimes fixes it. But like the post above, it's a bug and will be fixed soon, Just use an older version until then.
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EPT
