Zerg Build Order optimizer. - Page 51

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

November 10 2010 04:57 GMT

#1001

On November 10 2010 13:33 Nikhedoniac wrote:
sounds good, CarbonTwelve. I also wanted to write one of these in C++. Perhaps I can help with yours, if you like and if I find the time.
PM me if you're interested.

Ok, cool, I guess it's worth me uploading to GoogleCode sometime soon then. Will PM you once done.

A lot of the coding is actually pretty mundane - a lot of copy-pasting for defining the commands & events, but pretty unforgiving for making slight mistakes. For instance, just tried a 7RR and at one point it started spamming extractors down to about 3 drones, then cancelling them all. Was just a single missed line causing it to do that (wasn't recalculating the income rate after the drone was used for the extractor).

Incidentally, after fixing that I noticed my algorithm has come up with a slightly faster 7RR. This could be due to the income rate changes I mentioned earlier, or just a different approach that this execution found:

+ Show Spoiler +

Evolution: 48000
Games played: 202759703
Games per second: 376833
0.00: 50M 0G 3L 0E 6/ 10S - Build Drone
11.63: 50M 0G 2L 0E 7/ 10S - Build Drone
22.43: 50M 0G 2L 0E 8/ 10S - Build Drone
32.08: 50M 0G 2L 0E 9/ 10S - Build Drone
48.70: 100M 0G 2L 0E 10/ 10S - Build Overlord
59.30: 75M 0G 2L 0E 10/ 10S - Extractor Trick Drone
73.70: 119M 0G 2L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Drone
90.67: 200M 0G 3L 0E 12/ 18S - Build Spawning Pool
97.52: 50M 0G 3L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Drone
103.89: 50M 0G 2L 0E 12/ 18S - Build Drone
110.26: 50M 0G 1L 0E 13/ 18S - Build Drone
116.45: 50M 0G 1L 0E 14/ 18S - Build Drone
119.35: 25M 0G 0L 0E 15/ 18S - Build Extractor
127.52: 68M 0G 1L 0E 14/ 18S - Build Drone
149.35: 233M 0G 1L 0E 15/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas
149.35: 233M 0G 1L 0E 15/ 18S - Build Overlord
149.35: 133M 0G 1L 0E 15/ 18S - Build Drone
156.10: 150M 5G 0L 0E 16/ 18S - Build Queen
156.10: 0M 5G 0L 0E 18/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas
156.10: 0M 5G 0L 0E 18/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas
173.04: 150M 37G 2L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Roach Warren
185.10: 100M 60G 2L 0E 17/ 26S - Build Overlord
206.10: 181M 100G 3L 25E 17/ 26S - Queen Spawn Larva
228.04: 369M 141G 3L 12E 17/ 34S - Build Roach
228.04: 294M 116G 2L 12E 19/ 34S - Build Roach
228.04: 219M 91G 1L 12E 21/ 34S - Build Roach
243.04: 273M 95G 1L 21E 23/ 34S - Build Roach
246.10: 225M 76G 4L 23E 25/ 34S - Build Roach
246.10: 150M 51G 3L 23E 27/ 34S - Build Roach
246.15: 75M 26G 2L 23E 29/ 34S - Build Roach
273.15: 232M 52G 2L 38E 31/ 34S - Satisfied.

It also saves another 4 seconds if you don't ask it to get a queen:

+ Show Spoiler +

Evolution: 5500
Games played: 21209279
Games per second: 504670
0.00: 50M 0G 3L 0E 6/ 10S - Build Drone
11.63: 50M 0G 2L 0E 7/ 10S - Build Drone
22.43: 50M 0G 2L 0E 8/ 10S - Build Drone
32.08: 50M 0G 2L 0E 9/ 10S - Build Drone
62.82: 200M 0G 3L 0E 10/ 10S - Build Spawning Pool
71.29: 50M 0G 3L 0E 9/ 10S - Build Drone
83.10: 75M 0G 2L 0E 10/ 10S - Extractor Trick Drone
95.41: 100M 0G 2L 0E 11/ 10S - Build Overlord
120.41: 193M 0G 3L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Drone
120.41: 143M 0G 2L 0E 12/ 18S - Build Extractor
127.82: 169M 0G 2L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Roach Warren
133.31: 50M 0G 2L 0E 10/ 18S - Build Drone
140.79: 50M 0G 2L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Drone
150.41: 68M 0G 2L 0E 12/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas
150.41: 68M 0G 2L 0E 12/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas
150.41: 68M 0G 2L 0E 12/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas
156.06: 100M 11G 2L 0E 12/ 18S - Build Overlord
182.82: 169M 62G 3L 0E 12/ 26S - Build Roach
182.82: 94M 37G 2L 0E 14/ 26S - Build Roach
191.69: 75M 28G 1L 0E 16/ 26S - Build Roach
203.51: 75M 26G 1L 0E 18/ 26S - Build Roach
216.20: 81M 25G 1L 0E 20/ 26S - Build Roach
229.35: 89M 25G 1L 0E 22/ 26S - Build Roach
242.82: 100M 26G 1L 0E 24/ 26S - Build Roach
269.82: 196M 52G 1L 0E 26/ 26S - Satisfied.

tinghuajb

2 Posts

November 10 2010 06:31 GMT

#1002

On November 10 2010 11:34 CarbonTwelve wrote:

Show nested quote +

For some reason it never occurred to me to try that. I left it running over my lunch (~45 mins) and here's what it comes up with:

+ Show Spoiler +

Evolution: 185500
Games played: 840271182
Games per second: 370067
0.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
17.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
34.00: 107M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
41.63: 100M 0G 23E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
51.65: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
68.65: 95M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
68.65: 45M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
72.85: 75M 0G 16E 11/ 18S - Build Assimilator
82.25: 60M 0G 21E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
97.65: 131M 0G 30E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
102.85: 125M 0G 33E 13/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
105.99: 150M 2G 35E 13/ 18S - Build Gateway
105.99: 0M 2G 35E 13/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
113.03: 50M 7G 14E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
113.03: 0M 7G 14E 14/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
126.78: 98M 26G 21E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
126.78: 48M 26G 21E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
143.78: 181M 59G 31E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
160.78: 277M 91G 40E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
160.78: 227M 91G 40E 17/ 18S - Build Gateway
170.99: 165M 110G 46E 17/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
186.05: 150M 139G 55E 17/ 18S - Build Gateway
196.86: 100M 160G 61E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
207.67: 100M 180G 67E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
221.86: 131M 207G 75E 17/ 26S - Build Stalker
221.86: 6M 157G 75E 19/ 26S - Chrono Gateway
233.86: 125M 180G 57E 19/ 34S - Build Stalker
251.05: 170M 162G 66E 21/ 34S - Build Stalker
251.05: 45M 112G 66E 23/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
259.11: 125M 128G 46E 23/ 34S - Build Stalker
259.11: 0M 78G 46E 25/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
275.86: 166M 110G 30E 25/ 34S - Build Stalker
288.05: 162M 83G 37E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker
297.11: 126M 50G 42E 29/ 34S - Build Stalker
297.11: 1M 0G 42E 31/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
302.04: 50M 9G 20E 31/ 34S - Build Probe
311.11: 90M 27G 25E 32/ 34S - Chrono Gateway
330.71: 291M 64G 11E 32/ 34S - Satisfied.

The reason it builds that probe right at the end is because the fitness algorithm I'm using tries to maximise its value including stuff you haven't requested, so it builds another probe to get a bit of extra mining done in the last few seconds.

Also, the functions I'm using for calculating income rates are a little more accurate than the ones in Lomilar's app (well, more accurate compared to the measurements as calculated by Piousflea: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055), so this will explain any slight differences you might notice in available resources if you compare the two.

I think the RTS games will have a revolution cause of these programs. And by the time, I think most of the players still have not realized how great the programs are(The convergence speed still bad , I have an idea that maybe we could make more manual settings for a higher convergence speed. I also think that mines and gas of output should be definitized by users as the manual settings of the software. That means less AI and not an optimum solution,more human intelligence interference ,but higher convergence speed).

If five years ago, I would desire to join your great work immediately(I was good at Physics and Maths,10 years RTS experiences), but now, please forgive me as I am a Chinese loser guy who only waits for your masterpiece.

Dionyseus

United States2068 Posts

November 10 2010 08:51 GMT

#1003

On November 10 2010 11:34 CarbonTwelve wrote:

Show nested quote +

For some reason it never occurred to me to try that. I left it running over my lunch (~45 mins) and here's what it comes up with:

+ Show Spoiler +

Awesome. I suggest changing the seconds ouput to Lorimar's minutes:seconds output, much easier to read.

Please release your protoss application, so many people including me are waiting for it.

SovSov

United States755 Posts

November 10 2010 10:11 GMT

#1004

Oh boy, didn't know it would take this long.

I asked for 10 banelings ASAP and it's played 500k+ games already! D:

icezar

Germany240 Posts

November 10 2010 10:14 GMT

#1005

On November 10 2010 19:11 SovSov wrote:
Oh boy, didn't know it would take this long.

I asked for 10 banelings ASAP and it's played 500k+ games already! D:

:-)) just for your info, it would never stop, even if you ask for 7 drones

SovSov

United States755 Posts

November 10 2010 10:17 GMT

#1006

On November 10 2010 19:14 icezar wrote:

Show nested quote +

:-)) just for your info, it would never stop, even if you ask for 7 drones

Ohhh. >_>

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

November 10 2010 10:21 GMT

#1007

On November 10 2010 17:51 Dionyseus wrote:
Please release your protoss application, so many people including me are waiting for it.

I'm just going to work on a GUI now as I'd feel rather guilty releasing it with just the command line input it has atm. Hopefully will be able to upload it tomorrow or the day after.

On November 10 2010 19:11 SovSov wrote:
Oh boy, didn't know it would take this long.

I asked for 10 banelings ASAP and it's played 500k+ games already! D:

Not sure if you're interested but I plugged 10 banelings into my app and after 30s it came up with this:

+ Show Spoiler +

Evolution: 3000
Games played: 5656323
Games per second: 196523
0.00: 50M 0G 3L 0E 6/ 10S - Build Drone
11.63: 50M 0G 2L 0E 7/ 10S - Build Drone
22.43: 50M 0G 2L 0E 8/ 10S - Build Drone
32.08: 50M 0G 2L 0E 9/ 10S - Build Drone
36.55: 25M 0G 1L 0E 10/ 10S - Build Extractor
46.04: 50M 0G 2L 0E 9/ 10S - Build Drone
58.21: 75M 0G 1L 0E 10/ 10S - Extractor Trick Drone
66.55: 72M 0G 1L 0E 11/ 10S - Move Drone To Gas
70.95: 100M 3G 1L 0E 11/ 10S - Build Overlord
70.95: 0M 3G 1L 0E 11/ 10S - Move Drone To Gas
70.95: 0M 3G 1L 0E 11/ 10S - Move Drone To Gas
107.16: 200M 72G 3L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Spawning Pool
117.91: 50M 92G 3L 0E 10/ 18S - Build Drone
128.02: 50M 112G 2L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Drone
137.75: 50M 130G 2L 0E 12/ 18S - Build Drone
146.48: 50M 147G 1L 0E 13/ 18S - Build Drone
172.16: 183M 195G 2L 0E 14/ 18S - Build Baneling Nest
172.16: 83M 145G 2L 0E 13/ 18S - Build Zergling
174.89: 50M 151G 1L 0E 14/ 18S - Build Zergling
182.17: 50M 164G 1L 0E 15/ 18S - Build Zergling
192.91: 76M 185G 1L 0E 16/ 18S - Build Zergling
207.91: 133M 213G 1L 0E 17/ 18S - Build Zergling
232.16: 255M 259G 1L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Baneling
232.16: 230M 234G 1L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Baneling
232.16: 205M 209G 1L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Baneling
232.16: 180M 184G 1L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Baneling
232.16: 155M 159G 1L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Baneling
232.16: 130M 134G 1L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Baneling
232.16: 105M 109G 1L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Baneling
232.16: 80M 84G 1L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Baneling
232.16: 55M 59G 1L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Baneling
232.16: 30M 34G 1L 0E 18/ 18S - Build Baneling
262.16: 218M 66G 3L 0E 18/ 18S - Satisfied.

Mr Mauve

United Kingdom386 Posts

November 10 2010 11:37 GMT

#1008

On November 10 2010 19:21 CarbonTwelve wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm just going to work on a GUI now as I'd feel rather guilty releasing it with just the command line input it has atm. Hopefully will be able to upload it tomorrow or the day after.

Show nested quote +

Not sure if you're interested but I plugged 10 banelings into my app and after 30s it came up with this:

+ Show Spoiler +

You need a lair before your baneling nest. EDIT: This is not true!

Your games/second is outrageous, though! EDIT: This remains true!

icezar

Germany240 Posts

November 10 2010 11:50 GMT

#1009

On November 10 2010 20:37 Mr Mauve wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 10 2010 19:21 CarbonTwelve wrote:

On November 10 2010 17:51 Dionyseus wrote:
Please release your protoss application, so many people including me are waiting for it.

I'm just going to work on a GUI now as I'd feel rather guilty releasing it with just the command line input it has atm. Hopefully will be able to upload it tomorrow or the day after.

On November 10 2010 19:11 SovSov wrote:
Oh boy, didn't know it would take this long.

I asked for 10 banelings ASAP and it's played 500k+ games already! D:

Not sure if you're interested but I plugged 10 banelings into my app and after 30s it came up with this:

+ Show Spoiler +

You need a lair before your baneling nest.

Your games/second is outrageous, though!

aaaaa... no you don`t need any Lair!

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

November 10 2010 12:02 GMT

#1010

On November 10 2010 20:37 Mr Mauve wrote:
You need a lair before your baneling nest.

That's what I originally thought too, but I looked it up and sure enough, Baneling Nest only requires Spawning Pool: http://sc2armory.com/game/zerg/buildings/baneling-nest

Your games/second is outrageous, though!

The Touch

United Kingdom667 Posts

November 10 2010 12:07 GMT

#1011

People baneling bust at roughly 5 or 6 minutes. Of course you don't need a lair.

Deleted User 101379

4849 Posts

November 10 2010 12:25 GMT

#1012

On November 10 2010 07:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Not sure if I should be putting this into a new thread or just posting here, but basically after being inspired by Lomilar's app I was keen to try it myself (I've always been interested in AI and puzzle solvers), so I wrote my own GA in C++ with a lot of efficiency work I've done in other projects. The results are pretty good, and because of the efficiency of C++ and the custom memory management class I've got it's able to process 500,000+ games per second. I've also written a Protoss module (actually I started with that - just getting Zerg done now), although that does run a bit slower due to the handling for Chrono Boost. I also made a few changes to the way the GA works, implementing a large city that has immigration from several small villages.

The code isn't quite ready for public release yet (mainly because it doesn't have a UI yet), and there are still a few features that need to be implemented, but I thought I'd post here and get people's thoughts on it and see if there's much interest from others in pursuing a design under this architecture.

Note, I really don't want to take any credit away from Lomilar - I did PM him asking if he was interested in looking at this design, but I haven't heard back so I thought I'd just post in this thread. Anyway, it was his idea, all I've done is just implement it with a more efficient architecture.

Also, if you've got any Protoss builds you want me to test out for you and post the results, just let me know.

- Carbon

I don't know if your program includes this or if the EvolutionChamber added this in the mean time, but at least in the earlier versions the EvolutionChamber had no travel times which especially for expanding has a significant influence on the BO since the drone/probe/SCV has to move 10-30 seconds before the resources are available, depending on the distance to the expansion, and ofc it's not mining in that time. The same is valid for other buildings, though to a lesser amount.

Did you implement travel time or do you use probes with unlimited insta-blink ability?

noD

2230 Posts

November 10 2010 13:05 GMT

#1013

Several times it advices for 8 pool 10 gas 9 overlord oO
wasnt it supposed to be very econ bad ? (ps: made even up to 666k games ... )

Mr Mauve

United Kingdom386 Posts

November 10 2010 13:11 GMT

#1014

On November 10 2010 21:02 CarbonTwelve wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's what I originally thought too, but I looked it up and sure enough, Baneling Nest only requires Spawning Pool: http://sc2armory.com/game/zerg/buildings/baneling-nest

Oops! I looked it up too, but I was looking at baneling speed, not the building itself.

I stand humiliated. CARRY ON!

azzu

Germany141 Posts

November 10 2010 15:37 GMT

#1015

CarbonTwelve: come around at #EvolutionChamber in Quakenet, all us developers are there^^

http://webchat.quakenet.org/

Also: do you count invalid games in the games/sec count too? Cause EC does only count valid games

Bumblebees

United States328 Posts

November 10 2010 15:59 GMT

#1016

On November 10 2010 19:21 CarbonTwelve wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm just going to work on a GUI now as I'd feel rather guilty releasing it with just the command line input it has atm. Hopefully will be able to upload it tomorrow or the day after.

Show nested quote +

Not sure if you're interested but I plugged 10 banelings into my app and after 30s it came up with this:

+ Show Spoiler +

Your extractor trick is not returning the correct minerals. Make extractor for 25, cancel and refund 19.

sandoze

1 Post

November 10 2010 18:25 GMT

#1017

Awesome to hear CarbonTwelve has ported over to C++. Get this up on Google Code and I'll have it ported over to MacOSX in a weekend.

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

November 10 2010 22:37 GMT

#1018

On November 10 2010 21:25 Morfildur wrote:
I don't know if your program includes this or if the EvolutionChamber added this in the mean time, but at least in the earlier versions the EvolutionChamber had no travel times which especially for expanding has a significant influence on the BO since the drone/probe/SCV has to move 10-30 seconds before the resources are available, depending on the distance to the expansion, and ofc it's not mining in that time. The same is valid for other buildings, though to a lesser amount.

Did you implement travel time or do you use probes with unlimited insta-blink ability?

I've already implemented travel time, although it's not quite perfect at the moment as it applies it after the building has been built. So basically when building a gateway for example, it builds the gateway, then 'uses' a probe for 10 seconds afterwards. Ideally I'd have it use the probe for 5s beforehand, then build the building, then use it for another 5s, but this is actually really difficult to implement efficiently, so I think what I've done now is a good enough compromise. Zerg has a similar thing, but I halved the duration (as it only has to move there, then it's consumed).

The travel time depends on which building is being built. Most buildings are 5/10s, geyser buildings (extractor/assimilator) are 1/2s, bases (nexus/hatch) are 30s.

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

November 10 2010 22:40 GMT

#1019

On November 11 2010 00:37 azzu wrote:
Also: do you count invalid games in the games/sec count too? Cause EC does only count valid games

Yeah, it counts invalid games too, although I think we differ in what we consider 'invalid'. I seem to remember seeing that EC allowed 'junk DNA', so basically a command to build something that you didn't have the prerequisits for was ignored. Is this still the case? If so, what do you consider 'invalid'?

On November 11 2010 00:59 Bumblebees wrote:
Your extractor trick is not returning the correct minerals. Make extractor for 25, cancel and refund 19.

Thanks for that, atm it's making for 25 and returning 18.

On November 11 2010 03:25 sandoze wrote:
Awesome to hear CarbonTwelve has ported over to C++. Get this up on Google Code and I'll have it ported over to MacOSX in a weekend.

Sounds good, although I do have a lot of Windows specific code, so it might be a challenge to port. Also, the GUI I'm working on atm will be in MFC (I know, I know, I'd actually prefer to use .NET, but mixing unmanaged C++ code with .NET is a nightmare).

Dionyseus

United States2068 Posts

November 10 2010 23:56 GMT

#1020

On November 10 2010 19:21 CarbonTwelve wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm just going to work on a GUI now as I'd feel rather guilty releasing it with just the command line input it has atm. Hopefully will be able to upload it tomorrow or the day after.

Awesome

I understand Protoss the most out of the three races so I think that tool would be the most helpful for me.

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