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+ Show Spoiler +On October 08 2010 08:40 qpeeved wrote:Earlier today I was waiting around for friends to log on so we could initiate villain slaying, when I decided to get onto Shakuras Plateau to see where I could abuse protoss units, when I found something pretty huge. The natural of the Top Right starting location in Shakuras Ravine has a small advantage compared to the other naturals. As shown below, in all three of the other starting locations the second gas(as well as the first) gas are able to be sniped by Stalkers/Marauders + Show Spoiler +While at the Top Right location the second gas is having the time of it's life(the probe is a marker, as to how far the stalker can shoot): + Show Spoiler +As to how much of a deal this is, I'll leave that up for debate... but what I can say for sure is the map is nowhere near symmetrical. 
That's actually kind of a huge deal. Surprising.
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So we get a map that was originally designed for 2v2 (Shakuras) and a map that essentially has no 3rd expansion (Jungle Basin). Cool.
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blizzard should really try out some bigger maps without all the gimmicks, just look at metalopolis. easily the most liked map in sc2 right now, there is a reason for this..
and IF they insist on having these gimmicky small maps with awfully short distances in some spaws (or all of them on some maps) there should be some maps that benefit all races, not just the terran race.
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Wish we could down-vote more than 3 maps... Blizzard maps truly are terrible.
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On October 07 2010 19:27 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:58 kojinshugi wrote:
I don't need advice. If mOnion is a veteran then he needs to learn to read before he replies. It's absolutely disingenuous to harp on ridiculous minutiae and distort the argument of another person, especially in the guise of "helping them play". I didn't ask for advice.
its a starcraft forum. if you post saying essentially "I have to wall to beat 6pool" then people are going to try and help you, but you lashed out against every single person who tried like a toddler who doesn't want help with his fingerpainting. fine we wont help, but we're certainly not putting your replay on the refrigerator.
I see this guy getting into heated arguments on so many threads. think he's just one of those people that starts big arguments with inflammatory comments and bull-headedness
edit: btw im talking about kojinshugi, not mOnion 
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It really amazes me how Blizzard overlooks these types of balance things. I am glad I can stand the other maps at the moment (barely) because I have enough down votes for both of these :D
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Small maps again? Isn't that the biggest problem with the current maps for tournaments?
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i hate this change. these maps are not even good.
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On October 07 2010 14:02 Spaceball wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 13:42 iCCup.Diamond wrote:I made my rant post, doubt it will achieve much but I had to do it. I feel like I missed a lot of things however.... McLink Good post. If anyone agrees then they should definitely head over to the b.net forums and "like" the thread, since there is a better chance of getting blizzard's attention that way.
Reads like one big 'argument from authority' to be honest. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence presented as damning and many statements from iccup-ers that that are just supposed to be taken as fact that I am not so sure about. From Diamond:
"For those that do not know, one of the very main things that made Starcraft Brood War have such a long life cycle was the maps made for it not from Blizzard."
(Makes an implication about SC1 : Maps :: SC2 : Maps that might not actually be true.)
"We at iCCup TV have hosted hundreds of games on these maps and no major glaring problems like the above maps have been documented."
(So you have these maps that people didn't really test out yet that you want to use to replace the other maps that people didn't really test out?)
"Metalopolis is a great map but at this point is OLD. I've been playing that map for like 7 months now, it's just so blah... "
(LOL what? So even the good maps have to go now too because they are simply declared old and boring.)
"I did a poll about if iCCup events should go to all custom maps (on TL), and received a 94% approval rating into rotating out most Blizzard maps from over 1500 votes. The voice is there, the fans want to see something new."
(Based on polling 1% of the top 5% of hardcore fans? Teamliquid might contain *all* of the top players and strategists on Earth but that doesn't mean they are representative of 100% of the people who play. Sorry.)
And here is one from Raeclun: "The casuals are not the ones who draw people into playing the game those are the pros who play at a high level for the entertainment of others."
Ummm, maybe? Time for my anecdotal evidence I guess: exactly none of my 20+ real-life friends who plays SC2 gives a rat's ass about the GSL or progaming and they all started playing from word-of-mouth and their WoW/Modern Warfare buddies all playing.
If the point people are trying to make is BW's maps 10 years out were way better than SC2's maps 3 months out thanks in large part to the efforts of kespa/iccup mapmaking. Yes agreed but maybe you should have some small amount of patience and more tact in approaching blizzard. I understand the frustrations but I have my doubts about this being a good way to get match point added to the 1v1 ladder pool.
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On October 08 2010 15:13 tpir wrote:
Good post. If anyone agrees then they should definitely head over to the b.net forums and "like" the thread, since there is a better chance of getting blizzard's attention that way.
Reads like one big 'argument from authority' to be honest. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence presented as damning and many statements from iccup-ers that that are just supposed to be taken as fact that I am not so sure about. From Diamond:
There has been 5 iCCup members posting there. That is all out of 12 pages of discussion.
"For those that do not know, one of the very main things that made Starcraft Brood War have such a long life cycle was the maps made for it not from Blizzard."
(Makes an implication about SC1 : Maps :: SC2 : Maps that might not actually be true.)
No just stated a fact. Let me quote Liquipedia here: "Custom-made Maps are the bread and butter of competitive StarCraft. Without frequent exchange of maps to accomodate for trends and shifts in the meta game, the incredibly dynamic evolution of StarCraft progaming arguably could not have happened."
I just stated it was a big factor in the life cycle of SC, which it was.
"We at iCCup TV have hosted hundreds of games on these maps and no major glaring problems like the above maps have been documented."
(So you have these maps that people didn't really test out yet that you want to use to replace the other maps that people didn't really test out?)
Actually quite the opposite, these maps have hundreds of games played on them by top players. They ARE tested.
"Metalopolis is a great map but at this point is OLD. I've been playing that map for like 7 months now, it's just so blah... "
(LOL what? So even the good maps have to go now too because they are simply declared ood and boring.)
7 months is a LONG time for a map. It IS old.
"I did a poll about if iCCup events should go to all custom maps (on TL), and received a 94% approval rating into rotating out most Blizzard maps from over 1500 votes. The voice is there, the fans want to see something new."
(Based on polling 1% of the top 5% of hardcore fans? Teamliquid might contain *all* of the top players and strategists on Earth but that doesn't mean they are representative of 100% of the people who play. Sorry.)
No but 1500 people is a great sample size for something like this. Look into how 98% of polls for companies are run, they sample a small group.
And here is one from Raeclun: "The casuals are not the ones who draw people into playing the game those are the pros who play at a high level for the entertainment of others."
Ummm, maybe? Time for my anecdotal evidence I guess: exactly none of my 20+ real-life friends who plays SC2 gives a rat's ass about the GSL or progaming and they all started playing from word-of-mouth and their WoW/Modern Warfare buddies all playing.
What he is saying is that the casual's may play, but it's the hardcores that are going o our friends and going "you HAVE to buy this game man" or "Make sure and watch the GSL finals, it will be CRAZY." This is true in most sports industries, even more so with the smaller ones like MMA.
If the point people are trying to make is BW's maps 10 years out were way better than SC2's maps 3 months out. Yes agreed but maybe you should have some small amount of patience. I understand the frustrations but I have my doubts about this being a good way to get match point added to the 1v1 ladder pool.
Just want to get the discussion going. Do I think Blizz is going to look at the post and go "GUYS WE'RE STUPID! ALL CUSTOM MAPS FOR EVERYONE!!!!!" No. Do I think it's something that needs to be discussed sooner rather then later? Shit yea.
It's obviously a hot topic. It's been on Reddit's front Starcraft page for over 22 hours (which for Reddit is an ETERNITY), and has 12 pages of mostly well thought out discussion on one of the most well known troll filled forums. It's not just the TL member that are interested in this.
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I can't believe people still like jungle Basin.
I think we need REINFORCEMENTS!
![[image loading]](http://i53.tinypic.com/14lk7t3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i54.tinypic.com/2hs583o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i53.tinypic.com/2eapde9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i54.tinypic.com/o7ozll.jpg)
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if hte map is truly imbalanced, you can always just play better than your opponent.
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i will not rest untill Andromeda is in the map pool!!!!!!!!!!!
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maps suck. So terrible.
Actually Shakuras is ok but it looks like a 4p incineration zone. Jungle Basin is just horrible
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So, I don't know where all the ideas came from that Shakuras Plateau is a 2v2 map. Sure, it was featured in the beta 2v2 pool, but so was Lost Temple and Metalopolis. Clearly, it was never an official 2v2 map. It's far from a team play map.
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On October 08 2010 15:20 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
No but 1500 people is a great sample size for something like this. Look into how 98% of polls for companies are run, they sample a small group.
Yeah, but the polling companies don't go to the Westboro Babtist Church to sample public opinon on gay marriage.
The selection bias is absurd. You're polling people who:
1) are on the forums (i.e. highly likely to be disgruntled about something)
2) read threads about maps/balance (i.e. highly likely to be balance whiners)
3) care to vote in your poll (i.e. highly likely to already be on the Blizz maps suck bandwagon)
The fact that you got 94% approval rating backing your position should have been a clue that you're doing it wrong.
94% of people don't agree about anything outside of Saddam Hussein elections and shoddy opinion polls.
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On October 08 2010 15:50 kojinshugi wrote:
1) are on the forums (i.e. highly likely to be disgruntled about something)
2) read threads about maps/balance (i.e. highly likely to be balance whiners)
3) care to vote in your poll (i.e. highly likely to already be on the Blizz maps suck bandwagon.
You make a lot of assumptions here.
And I do what I can with what I have avaliable. I wish I could get the list for all SCII accounts and email a random 1500 asking them. But I can't. So I use the best resources avaliable to me.
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On October 08 2010 15:57 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 15:50 kojinshugi wrote:
1) are on the forums (i.e. highly likely to be disgruntled about something)
2) read threads about maps/balance (i.e. highly likely to be balance whiners)
3) care to vote in your poll (i.e. highly likely to already be on the Blizz maps suck bandwagon. You make a lot of assumptions here.
Really? Forums being full of people with axes to grind is an assumption?
And I do what I can with what I have avaliable. I wish I could get the list for all SCII accounts and email a random 1500 asking them. But I can't. So I use the best resources avaliable to me.
When your options are no data or bad and inaccurate data, then the choice should be obvious.
Your crusade to browbeat Blizzard into using your maps is not going to work, especially if your tactics involve sensationalist stunts like "94% of people agree with me that your maps are the poop!".
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On October 08 2010 12:38 Subversion wrote:I see this guy getting into heated arguments on so many threads. think he's just one of those people that starts big arguments with inflammatory comments and bull-headedness edit: btw im talking about kojinshugi, not mOnion
Stalker much?
I didn't start any arguments, these people jumped in halfway through a conversation and started arguing a point I never fucking made.
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On October 08 2010 16:02 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 15:57 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On October 08 2010 15:50 kojinshugi wrote:
1) are on the forums (i.e. highly likely to be disgruntled about something)
2) read threads about maps/balance (i.e. highly likely to be balance whiners)
3) care to vote in your poll (i.e. highly likely to already be on the Blizz maps suck bandwagon. You make a lot of assumptions here. Really? Forums being full of people with axes to grind is an assumption? Show nested quote +And I do what I can with what I have avaliable. I wish I could get the list for all SCII accounts and email a random 1500 asking them. But I can't. So I use the best resources avaliable to me. When your options are no data or bad and inaccurate data, then the choice should be obvious. Your crusade to browbeat Blizzard into using your maps is not going to work, especially if your tactics involve sensationalist stunts like "94% of people agree with me that your maps are the poop!".
Congratulations, you went through an 8000 word post and picked out one single statement and are using it to counter the other 7800+ words on that thread.
If you don't like the stats, too bad, they are stats. I mentioned where the poll was done, and imo there is no better place in the world to poll Starcraft fans then TL.
If it does not meet your standards I am sorry, but it is what it is.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/XH23r.jpg)
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