|
On September 29 2010 02:11 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:08 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 02:03 ToastieNL wrote:On September 29 2010 01:58 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 01:51 dcemuser wrote:On September 29 2010 01:50 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 01:49 Adeeler wrote:
I attacked a PF today and purposely positioned my ultras on his scvs that were repairing thinking that the scvs would die from the ultras nerfed splash i.e. my microing to keep my ultra next to the scvs would kill them while attack the PF and the scvs took next to no dmg regardless of being next to/touching my ultra's.
Ultra splash seems worse then before the splash bugs splash. Can you make a video? Or screenshots? That'd be great. Reposting this image because it is incredibly well done and mostly accurate. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/xCzNd.png) Well yes - the pokeballs were lovely, but I was hoping he'd do the screenshots of the actual game so people who are more likely to nitpick will not do so. If no one does it, then I will do it when I get home from work. Like this? It's in the OP. On September 29 2010 02:04 Numy wrote:On September 29 2010 01:58 JinDesu wrote:
Well yes - the pokeballs were lovely, but I was hoping he'd do the screenshots of the actual game so people who are more likely to nitpick will not do so. If no one does it, then I will do it when I get home from work. I'm slightly confused. There are screenshots of various units in the OP. On. The. PF. When. SCVs. Repair. It. The splash effect on a line of units in front of the ultra is evident in those screenshots yes. And the pokeball picture tells me the splash will work best only on units that are meleeing the ultra. How does the splash effect the scvs that are in a circular formation around the planetary fortress? Do the ultras kill the scvs next to it? In front only? How many ultras does it take to take a PF down now? We're back to square one, ultras are ineffective against PF/SCV
Which is damn terrible.
|
On September 29 2010 02:09 eloist wrote:
I might be the only one here but just looking at these screenshots, the pre-patch behavior seems completely unreasonable.
An unintroduced player would never expect that by looking at the units involved and concerning Thors, micro would do very little here considering how easily they get in the way of each other.
If Ultras are not good enough due to this change then they need to be fixed in a different way because the pre-patch behavior is ridiculous and unpredictable, in other words, not good game design.
It makes sense for Ultras to use different splash semantics than, say, tanks. One is hitting from the front with a melee attack. The other is hitting smack in the middle from above with a big explosion.
Why is it only players with SCVs saying stuff like this?
Sure, I don't disagree in principle, but Blizzard having the audacity to nerf Zerg at the moment is ridiculous. Give it a different building attack that does normal AoE, or make this change as part of a rebalance of Zerg that buffs other things in compensation.
Nerfing the weakest race is silly. Only Death Knights-- excuse me-- Terran, will have much reason to see it differently.
|
On September 29 2010 00:05 Sirion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 23:36 Piski wrote:
I'm really that stupid that I don't get it :o I mean they said it wasn't intentional what ultra splash did in 1.1 so why are so freakin' surprised that it's now nerfed?
Didn't they just pretty much reverted it back as it was in 1.0? No, in patch 1.0 the ultralisk splash radius was increased by the unit size, but against buildings it used the ram attack. In 1.1 it used the same attack on units and buildings, but due to the big size of buildings, their splash in that setting became quite ridiculous. So now, in 1.1.1, the splash radius is no more increased by the target's radius. Some numbers on the effect: pre-1.1.1 -> 1.1.1 Against Marines: splash range: 2.375 -> 2 area covered: 17.3 -> 12.1 ( -30% ) Against Marauders: splash range: 2.5625 -> 2 area covered: 19.6 -> 11.6 ( -41% ) Against Thors: splash range: 2.8125 -> 2 area covered: 22.7 -> 10.5 ( -54% ) Against Siege Tanks: splash range: 2.875 -> 2 area covered: 23.6 -> 10.2 ( -57% ) Note how although the splash radius is now constant, the area of splash decreases for bigger units as the primary target blocks more area. I am pretty sure that a unit is affected by splash if its center is in the splash area. As a consequence, if two Thors are spaced in such a way that a marine fits in between, the second Thor will receive no splash damage. Therefore the the -xx% numbers are to be taken with caution, as the number of units inside the splash range is important. However in randomly arranged units, thats the average reduction of the splash. All in all this is a rather big nerf of the ultralisks splash damage, especially for a bug fix which should only remove unintended behaviour and not affect regular play. Especially as there is an easy fix for this problem by giving the ultralisk two attacks, one against units and one against buildings, which are identical except that for attacks against buildings the splash area is not increased.
Sirion, do your figures account for the attack originating from the external surface of the attacked unit, in effect making the formula 2 + r +r ?
|
Ultras were the one unit that could save Zergs in the end game. This is a significant nerf.
|
Sign...
Kinda disappointing, I wonder if it will be fixed...I doubt it thought.
|
On September 29 2010 02:13 Ndugu wrote:
Why is it only players with SCVs saying stuff like this?
Sure, I don't disagree in principle, but Blizzard having the audacity to nerf Zerg at the moment is ridiculous. Give it a different building attack that does normal AoE, or make this change as part of a rebalance of Zerg that buffs other things in compensation.
Nerfing the weakest race is silly. Only Death Knights-- excuse me-- Terran, will have much reason to see it differently.
I would consider the previous behavior game breaking if it gets to the point where Ultras are out though. Disregarding whether or not the race is strong or weak as a whole. I think tanks were game breaking in a similar way and they got fixed and it was good. Not gonna lie though, I am happy because I suck at tank vs. tank.
|
On September 29 2010 02:08 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:03 ToastieNL wrote:On September 29 2010 01:58 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 01:51 dcemuser wrote:On September 29 2010 01:50 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 01:49 Adeeler wrote:
I attacked a PF today and purposely positioned my ultras on his scvs that were repairing thinking that the scvs would die from the ultras nerfed splash i.e. my microing to keep my ultra next to the scvs would kill them while attack the PF and the scvs took next to no dmg regardless of being next to/touching my ultra's.
Ultra splash seems worse then before the splash bugs splash. Can you make a video? Or screenshots? That'd be great. Reposting this image because it is incredibly well done and mostly accurate. Well yes - the pokeballs were lovely, but I was hoping he'd do the screenshots of the actual game so people who are more likely to nitpick will not do so. If no one does it, then I will do it when I get home from work. Like this? It's in the OP. Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:04 Numy wrote:On September 29 2010 01:58 JinDesu wrote:
Well yes - the pokeballs were lovely, but I was hoping he'd do the screenshots of the actual game so people who are more likely to nitpick will not do so. If no one does it, then I will do it when I get home from work. I'm slightly confused. There are screenshots of various units in the OP. On. The. PF. When. SCVs. Repair. It. The splash effect on a line of units in front of the ultra is evident in those screenshots yes. And the pokeball picture tells me the splash will work best only on units that are meleeing the ultra. How does the splash effect the scvs that are in a circular formation around the planetary fortress? Do the ultras kill the scvs next to it? In front only? How many ultras does it take to take a PF down now? No, I don't expect people to do this for me - I'm only putting the question out now while I'm at work. If I don't see it mocked up, then I'll just do it when I get home and post it up here.
If you watch one of afruitdealer's games, the 3rd game against terran where he wins with ultras, I'm pretty sure the missile turrets behind the PF get taken out by cleave.
|
Hmm , Ultras are nerfed , Broodlords are easily countered ...
So i guess playing for a late game macro style isn't the best choice now ...
So ... How do I play zerg now?
|
On September 29 2010 02:19 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:08 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 02:03 ToastieNL wrote:On September 29 2010 01:58 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 01:51 dcemuser wrote:On September 29 2010 01:50 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 01:49 Adeeler wrote:
I attacked a PF today and purposely positioned my ultras on his scvs that were repairing thinking that the scvs would die from the ultras nerfed splash i.e. my microing to keep my ultra next to the scvs would kill them while attack the PF and the scvs took next to no dmg regardless of being next to/touching my ultra's.
Ultra splash seems worse then before the splash bugs splash. Can you make a video? Or screenshots? That'd be great. Reposting this image because it is incredibly well done and mostly accurate. Well yes - the pokeballs were lovely, but I was hoping he'd do the screenshots of the actual game so people who are more likely to nitpick will not do so. If no one does it, then I will do it when I get home from work. Like this? It's in the OP. On September 29 2010 02:04 Numy wrote:On September 29 2010 01:58 JinDesu wrote:
Well yes - the pokeballs were lovely, but I was hoping he'd do the screenshots of the actual game so people who are more likely to nitpick will not do so. If no one does it, then I will do it when I get home from work. I'm slightly confused. There are screenshots of various units in the OP. On. The. PF. When. SCVs. Repair. It. The splash effect on a line of units in front of the ultra is evident in those screenshots yes. And the pokeball picture tells me the splash will work best only on units that are meleeing the ultra. How does the splash effect the scvs that are in a circular formation around the planetary fortress? Do the ultras kill the scvs next to it? In front only? How many ultras does it take to take a PF down now? No, I don't expect people to do this for me - I'm only putting the question out now while I'm at work. If I don't see it mocked up, then I'll just do it when I get home and post it up here. If you watch one of afruitdealer's games, the 3rd game against terran where he wins with ultras, I'm pretty sure the missile turrets behind the PF get taken out by cleave.
I'm not talking about pre-hotfix. We have a ton of videos on that.
|
On September 29 2010 02:20 john0507 wrote:
Hmm , Ultras are nerfed , Broodlords are easily countered ...
So i guess playing for a late game macro style isn't the best choice now ...
So ... How do I play zerg now?
I had to push ling bling muta to be my mid & all my late game v T. Maybe things like this will push more ppl to infestors before they are skrewed over 
|
Yes, ultras are weaker this patch but does that make them completely useless? Some may argue that their initial splash mechanic was too powerful and this patch coincidentally balanced everything out. You're supposed to flank with ultras anyway so battling head on is going to be unfavorable, regardless of which patch version you're using.
|
what about 1.1.1 compared to 1.0?
|
On September 29 2010 02:16 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:05 Sirion wrote:On September 28 2010 23:36 Piski wrote:
I'm really that stupid that I don't get it :o I mean they said it wasn't intentional what ultra splash did in 1.1 so why are so freakin' surprised that it's now nerfed?
Didn't they just pretty much reverted it back as it was in 1.0? No, in patch 1.0 the ultralisk splash radius was increased by the unit size, but against buildings it used the ram attack. In 1.1 it used the same attack on units and buildings, but due to the big size of buildings, their splash in that setting became quite ridiculous. So now, in 1.1.1, the splash radius is no more increased by the target's radius. Some numbers on the effect: pre-1.1.1 -> 1.1.1 Against Marines: splash range: 2.375 -> 2 area covered: 17.3 -> 12.1 ( -30% ) Against Marauders: splash range: 2.5625 -> 2 area covered: 19.6 -> 11.6 ( -41% ) Against Thors: splash range: 2.8125 -> 2 area covered: 22.7 -> 10.5 ( -54% ) Against Siege Tanks: splash range: 2.875 -> 2 area covered: 23.6 -> 10.2 ( -57% ) Note how although the splash radius is now constant, the area of splash decreases for bigger units as the primary target blocks more area. I am pretty sure that a unit is affected by splash if its center is in the splash area. As a consequence, if two Thors are spaced in such a way that a marine fits in between, the second Thor will receive no splash damage. Therefore the the -xx% numbers are to be taken with caution, as the number of units inside the splash range is important. However in randomly arranged units, thats the average reduction of the splash. All in all this is a rather big nerf of the ultralisks splash damage, especially for a bug fix which should only remove unintended behaviour and not affect regular play. Especially as there is an easy fix for this problem by giving the ultralisk two attacks, one against units and one against buildings, which are identical except that for attacks against buildings the splash area is not increased. Sirion, do your figures account for the attack originating from the external surface of the attacked unit, in effect making the formula 2 + r +r ?
That's incorrect. The splash originates from the center of the unit, that's why for example units under a colossus would take splash damage. The formula was 2+target radius. Now it's just 2.
|
On September 29 2010 02:09 eloist wrote:
It makes sense for Ultras to use different splash semantics than, say, tanks. One is hitting from the front with a melee attack. The other is hitting smack in the middle from above with a big explosion.
Dear everybody,
Can we please stop bringing realism arguments into balance discussions. It is really, really annoying and an absurd red herring that really is not helpful in any manner.
Thanks,
DTown
|
On September 29 2010 02:19 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:08 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 02:03 ToastieNL wrote:On September 29 2010 01:58 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 01:51 dcemuser wrote:On September 29 2010 01:50 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 01:49 Adeeler wrote:
I attacked a PF today and purposely positioned my ultras on his scvs that were repairing thinking that the scvs would die from the ultras nerfed splash i.e. my microing to keep my ultra next to the scvs would kill them while attack the PF and the scvs took next to no dmg regardless of being next to/touching my ultra's.
Ultra splash seems worse then before the splash bugs splash. Can you make a video? Or screenshots? That'd be great. Reposting this image because it is incredibly well done and mostly accurate. Well yes - the pokeballs were lovely, but I was hoping he'd do the screenshots of the actual game so people who are more likely to nitpick will not do so. If no one does it, then I will do it when I get home from work. Like this? It's in the OP. On September 29 2010 02:04 Numy wrote:On September 29 2010 01:58 JinDesu wrote:
Well yes - the pokeballs were lovely, but I was hoping he'd do the screenshots of the actual game so people who are more likely to nitpick will not do so. If no one does it, then I will do it when I get home from work. I'm slightly confused. There are screenshots of various units in the OP. On. The. PF. When. SCVs. Repair. It. The splash effect on a line of units in front of the ultra is evident in those screenshots yes. And the pokeball picture tells me the splash will work best only on units that are meleeing the ultra. How does the splash effect the scvs that are in a circular formation around the planetary fortress? Do the ultras kill the scvs next to it? In front only? How many ultras does it take to take a PF down now? No, I don't expect people to do this for me - I'm only putting the question out now while I'm at work. If I don't see it mocked up, then I'll just do it when I get home and post it up here. If you watch one of afruitdealer's games, the 3rd game against terran where he wins with ultras, I'm pretty sure the missile turrets behind the PF get taken out by cleave.
Which is exactly what it was supposed to do.
Remember when Blizzard nerfed Ultra building damage, but then they tell us all that it isn't really a nerf since now it does splash against buildings and so you can damage more buildings at a time with ultras than before. Why say that and then take it away again?
There are no zero radius units in the game, hence no matter how you look at it, this is a direct nerf. It does less damage against every unit since even if you attacked an SCV pre patch 1.1.1 the radius of splash would still be larger than 2.
|
On September 29 2010 01:16 Knutzi wrote:
terran dominating since release : take 2-3 months too make slight nerf
zerg get a solution too PF spamming terrans, hot fix day1
A patch is not a hot fix. Things in SC cannot be hot fixed, they must be patched. A hot fix is a change which is enacted without a server shutdown and without people having to change client side game data. All game data in SC2 is client side.
|
On September 29 2010 02:11 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:08 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 02:03 ToastieNL wrote:On September 29 2010 01:58 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 01:51 dcemuser wrote:On September 29 2010 01:50 JinDesu wrote:On September 29 2010 01:49 Adeeler wrote:
I attacked a PF today and purposely positioned my ultras on his scvs that were repairing thinking that the scvs would die from the ultras nerfed splash i.e. my microing to keep my ultra next to the scvs would kill them while attack the PF and the scvs took next to no dmg regardless of being next to/touching my ultra's.
Ultra splash seems worse then before the splash bugs splash. Can you make a video? Or screenshots? That'd be great. Reposting this image because it is incredibly well done and mostly accurate. Well yes - the pokeballs were lovely, but I was hoping he'd do the screenshots of the actual game so people who are more likely to nitpick will not do so. If no one does it, then I will do it when I get home from work. Like this? It's in the OP. On September 29 2010 02:04 Numy wrote:On September 29 2010 01:58 JinDesu wrote:
Well yes - the pokeballs were lovely, but I was hoping he'd do the screenshots of the actual game so people who are more likely to nitpick will not do so. If no one does it, then I will do it when I get home from work. I'm slightly confused. There are screenshots of various units in the OP. On. The. PF. When. SCVs. Repair. It. The splash effect on a line of units in front of the ultra is evident in those screenshots yes. And the pokeball picture tells me the splash will work best only on units that are meleeing the ultra. How does the splash effect the scvs that are in a circular formation around the planetary fortress? Do the ultras kill the scvs next to it? In front only? How many ultras does it take to take a PF down now? We're back to square one, ultras are ineffective against PF/SCV
That's wrong. Ultras damage all SCVs which are in front of Ultra if there are any, and like ~2 SCV on the side of Ultra. Not much, but at least realistically.
|
Also Ultras only do 15 dmg to the targetted SCV and then 5 in splash to surrounding scvs. So an Ultra needs 3 shots to kill an scv.
Also scvs can heal each other and buildings as they are mechanical and they can be healed by medivacs as they are biological also and as they are likely to be put on auto repair that will skew things completely when they are healing each other and a fortress into immortal fortress & scvs scenarios.
|
make ultralisk move and attack while burrowed. and be able to attack air too
|
On September 29 2010 02:24 Raikynn wrote:
what about 1.1.1 compared to 1.0?
1.0 Ultra's had more bonus damage vs. Armored. So instead of 40 damage in 1.0, it changed to 35 in 1.1, and now the splash area has been nerfed by a minimum of 30% according to Sirion's post.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/dIwUm.jpg<br>)
