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On September 24 2010 09:13 MavercK wrote:
my thoughts on zerg are this
starcraft 1 the races felt VERY different. each had a far more varied style of play.
i feel like in starcraft 2 they ended up making the races too similar but then still tried to keep them varied. if you get what i mean?
for example.
Marauder/Roach/Stalker.
these units just seem very similar. sure they have varying statistics and different abilities. but they basically serve the same role for all. a high hp unit with average ranged damage. sure the roach beats the stalker pretty one sided but they still remain in that role.
then you have a tier 2 caster unit. HT/Ghost/Infestor they all have some sort of ranged damage spell (storm, emp, fungal(yes i know emp only does shields but it's used in the same way, against zerg you have snipe anyway) again these abilities and units all remain different but at the same time very similar. fitting the same role as one another.
there are many more examples like this and i think it's the complete WRONG direction for starcraft 2 to be heading it and the problem is it's unlikely to change. even with the expansions. Blizzard are very unlikely to remove units or completely rework them.
i think zergs weakness stems from this. They just are not supposed to work like this. starcraft 1 had fairly clearly defined roles for each race.
Terran was not really hardcore turtling but they had very strong defensive capabilities with siege tanks, bunkers and turrets.
Zerg favored mass expanding and fast moving but cheap and weak units.
Protoss had a very hard hitting army. high health. high armory. fairly slow moving army.
in starcraft 2 they seemed to look at
Terran and basically add mobility and harassment to their options.
Protoss i can't really give my opinion they dont seem very different except for faster reinforcement of their armies with forward pylons and warp gates.
Zerg had alot of their mobility removed in exchange for units with alot more hp and armor
just to hammer this point because i think people will reply to the wrong portions of it
i think the main problem with zerg is blizzard's lack of diversity in the races. they are nowhere near as different and varied as starcraft 1 races.
not only that, but the addition of extremely strong AOE for T and P is making zerg 'massing' of units irrelevant, which is supposed to be zerg's strength. Colossus melts lings, hellions melt lings... its like zerg is always against the clock to have a chance to survive "gotta get corruptors before the colossus push" etc.
Overrunning your opponent with units doesnt work anymore. Sentries split and block your armies from fighting effectively, marauders serve as meat shields for terran which lings/roach barely scratch, medevacs heal from the safety of the air...
adding of the macro mechanics makes the cheap zerg hatchery almost useless. the maps dont help this either as most 3rds need to have rocks killed or are very out of the way and undependable with no creep early game, and virtually undependable from the current strength of 1 base of T or P due to the macro mechanics.
things are just a mess.
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On September 24 2010 09:13 Battle wrote:
As a Zerg player (Diamond 1481 points currently if anyone cares) I think that there are only 2 things that make zer UP, the most imporant is maps, and the 2nd one is reapers. Reapers are fucking good, they can kill the only unit that they cant kite, and if all of that means All-in no posible expo it would be ok, but a transtion out of 5 raxes all reaper shouldnt be possible.
1481 zerg, hum, thats around 1680 as terran if you switch.
On serious note, yes maps make huuuge difference. Scrap station and metaloplosis without close spawn helps alot. Blizzard just needs to remove kulas ravine, delta quadron, and take away the ledges on the natural on LT.
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On September 24 2010 09:14 MaD.pYrO wrote:Bring back BW Hydras! 
I am actually beginning to think you may be right.
Hydras (with speed) beat every protoss unit hands down in BW, until the protoss got reavers and high templar. This gave zerg quite a strong backbone to their army. If the zerg just massed the one type of unit though they would still die very very quickly in the late game, but the mobile and powerful hydra really helped ease the early-midgame pressure.
There is no comparable unit for zerg now. The current hydras are a bad joke, costing twice as much and being half the speed of their predecessors. The stalker is better than the 'goon, the rauder is way better than the firebat and the roach is struggling to find its place. Not enough health to be a decent meatshield, not enough range to be a damage dealer and not enough numbers to be a swarm.
Zerg's early game was significantly weakened in the move from BW->SC2 while the other races were significantly buffed.
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United States11393 Posts
On September 24 2010 09:12 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
I beg to differ. Zerg has no scouting VS terran without suiciding ovies. Thats about it. All game. My race has maphack, and terran can scan whenever, gradually losing them 300 minerals vs Zerg losing 200 minerals and 16 supply for the ovie pincer.
Zerg can be punish easily while terran cannot is also imba. It's not a "difference" it's something that only zerg suffers from, with nothing to balance it out. Terrans can easily find out about zerg mistakes and punish them. Zerg cannot do either.
Weak AA. Again, a weakness no other race has. Ex. Tosses Anti air is not as bad as zergs, but they are amazingly good against ground units lategame. Zerg is weakest on ground and air.
T3 is more necessary for zerg than any other race, and yet it's almost impossible to get. Toss needs T3 to beat bioballs, but we can get it with relative speed. Zerg can't
Your T1 scout example also fails. Why? Because protoss have incredible midgame scouting to balance it out. For zerg there is no such mitigating factor.
Need I go on?
... Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 09:10 stormtemplar wrote:
Your T1 scout example also fails. Why? Because protoss have incredible midgame scouting to balance it out. For zerg there is no such mitigating factor.
lollolololol. You mean that isolated statements of fact in disregard of context have absolutely no meaning or relevance, and your previous, incredibly obvious observations you pointed out were a complete waste of time? Ok, thanks. What I was talking about.
In terms of Z scouting, Lalush has covered pretty extensively the problems associated with it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6220714
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6315341
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Honestly, if they just gave us maps with less open naturals, maps with less gimmicks (natural cliffs, backdoor rocks), maps with longer rush distances, and made sunken/spore crawlers build like 10~15 seconds faster zerg would do just fine.
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Terran got Mules
Protoss got Chrono Boost
Zerg got Queens
Terran got exchangable addons
Protoss got warp gates
Zerg got....???
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Two changes that would really help, and not really hurt either matchup is to bring the Overlord speed upgrade back down to 50/50 (Blizzard said that they didn't want to make getting upgrades a no-brainer, but then why is Concussive Shells still 50/50?), and give Hydralisks a speed upgrade, so it doesn't feel like I have an army of Reavers off of creep.
This may solve some scouting issues against Terran and allow for some mid game offensive plays by the Zerg.
On September 24 2010 09:26 fantomex wrote:
Terran got exchangable addons
Protoss got warp gates
Zerg got....???
Creep! Haha.
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Kinda on topic kind off
I read at gamespot one interview with blizzard they said that HotS was at very early stage and they were still at ideas, so I don´t/can´t even think of them waiting for the expansion to balance stuff cause by what I read it will take quite a time ...
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Blame it on Blizzard for wanting to break SC2 into 3 parts and dragging out the balancing in the process.
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On September 24 2010 09:14 Zips wrote:I wonder how much of this rage is because COOL isn't trying new things.. I think there's some unexplored potential in zerg's early game.. Perhaps try going lair before building a queen, or something like that.. I don't know
Going lair before queen means you'll have a lot less larva and thus a weaker economy, you wouldn't be able to survive any terran or protoss aggression.
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On September 24 2010 09:26 fantomex wrote:
Terran got Mules
Protoss got Chrono Boost
Zerg got Queens
Terran got exchangable addons
Protoss got warp gates
Zerg got....???
zerg got queens, which really only replaced getting early hatches in BW, so they are pretty much equal except that u now have a slow/weak unit walking around that requires apm to manage.
zerg got the queen which is anti-air defense but lost t1 hydra and got t1 roach. combine the roach and queen and u sort of have the same as hydras, but more expensive and much less utility (slow, crap range, crap dmg).
conclusion: zerg got... the shaft.
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It wouldn't be out of the question for the balance of Starcraft 2 to become similar to Warcraft 3, with people just not playing Zerg. It's not ideal, but it's seemingly more and more likely.
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On September 24 2010 09:09 Half wrote:
So your saying that no matter what we change, Zerg will either be underpowered or overpowered. No, don't worry, I agree that the game could be balanced with small incremental tweaks to achieve winning balance. But winning balance isn't everything. Blizzard also (rightfully) keeps track of tech balance.
For example (just an example), a race can be exactly as powerful as the rest, but only through one unit, so everybody uses it, and the rest of the tech becomes just some luxury for being fancy.
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On September 24 2010 02:51 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 02:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 24 2010 02:36 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 24 2010 02:34 TBO wrote:
I'd really like to see Cool's Terran vs TLO's Zerg. Cool would get wrecked, TLO is a beast w/ zerg i'm so sad that he isn't playing them. get on that! Hasn't Cool already stated he has already been able to beat top level Zergs when he offraces with Terran? As i said, Cool was top of korean ladder with random in phase 2 where the terran imbalance became apparent. I dunno why he went back to zerg.
Because GSL doesn't let you pick random as a race. He had to choose 1 race, and he went with Zerg.
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On September 24 2010 09:11 smegged wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 09:05 Angra wrote:
I haven't read anything but the OP but I know there are going to be a ton of posts in this thread calling for wild ridiculous nerfs to Terran.
I really hope that does not happen.
My hope is that Blizzard gives something (or multiple things) to Zerg to catch them up with T and P. Either by switching around hydra and roach tech levels (hydra at tier 1.5, roach at tier 2) and changing their numbers accordingly, by giving them a unit (scourge or lurkers would help so much) or by adding/changing spells, like on the infestor. Just something that gives Zerg an extra THING to deal with T and P. I really don't want to see this game reduced down to nerfing the races that are interesting to even them out with the uninteresting races. Actually most people are crying for zerg buffs. IMO it requires a combination of both - a nerf to the macro mechanics of protoss/terran by adding a cooldown to their abilities and a buff to zerg. At the top levels the macro mechanics are balanced because the pros never miss a timing. At the lower levels the macro mechanics are imbalanced because noobs always miss timings and zerg is the only one that you cannot "catch up" with.
As far as I was aware, even top tournament-worthy players are incapable of spawning larva, spreading creep, and still keeping up with battle micro without making any mistakes whatsoever through entire significant length games. If you can point me to replays that say otherwise I'd be happy to be proven mistaken.
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On September 24 2010 09:25 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 09:12 Half wrote:
I beg to differ. Zerg has no scouting VS terran without suiciding ovies. Thats about it. All game. My race has maphack, and terran can scan whenever, gradually losing them 300 minerals vs Zerg losing 200 minerals and 16 supply for the ovie pincer.
Zerg can be punish easily while terran cannot is also imba. It's not a "difference" it's something that only zerg suffers from, with nothing to balance it out. Terrans can easily find out about zerg mistakes and punish them. Zerg cannot do either.
Weak AA. Again, a weakness no other race has. Ex. Tosses Anti air is not as bad as zergs, but they are amazingly good against ground units lategame. Zerg is weakest on ground and air.
T3 is more necessary for zerg than any other race, and yet it's almost impossible to get. Toss needs T3 to beat bioballs, but we can get it with relative speed. Zerg can't
Your T1 scout example also fails. Why? Because protoss have incredible midgame scouting to balance it out. For zerg there is no such mitigating factor.
Need I go on?
... On September 24 2010 09:10 stormtemplar wrote:
Your T1 scout example also fails. Why? Because protoss have incredible midgame scouting to balance it out. For zerg there is no such mitigating factor.
lollolololol. You mean that isolated statements of fact in disregard of context have absolutely no meaning or relevance, and your previous, incredibly obvious observations you pointed out were a complete waste of time? Ok, thanks. What I was talking about. In terms of Z scouting, Lalush has covered pretty extensively the problems associated with it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6220714http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6315341
I'm not argueing that Z scouting isn't problematic. In fact, Lalush is post is exactly what I was encouraging. I agree with that post I'm saying that saying "Zerg scouting is worse then terran" in itself is not a problem, just the statement of a fact. This was in direct response to some guy who wrote a big list saying
"This is whats wrong with zerg"
and then he proceeded to state facts about zerg, like "Needs early expo", etc. Which alone, do not constitute imbalance, and do not necessarily need to be fixed.
My comparison with protoss wasn't to show that protoss was as underpowered as zerg, or as overpowered, but intentionally flawed to show the problems of making statements of fact as support for a conclusion.
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GOOD NEWS EVERYONE
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627980736?page=3#55
Blizz has responded to a poster saying that they are talking to pro players and have balance changes
We're well aware of the concerns on balance, if we're not in direct contact with pro players we keep a careful eye on what they say and do. I know balance changes are planned, I've heard of some specific changes for the next patch. I can't talk about them yet. Soon.
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On September 24 2010 09:33 Zeroes wrote:GOOD NEWS EVERYONEhttp://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627980736?page=3#55Blizz has responded to a poster concerning balance and pro players Show nested quote +
We're well aware of the concerns on balance, if we're not in direct contact with pro players we keep a careful eye on what they say and do. I know balance changes are planned, I've heard of some specific changes for the next patch. I can't talk about them yet. Soon.
Now we just have to wait 2 more months to have another very very very slight buff!
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On September 24 2010 09:22 Anfere wrote:
Good for them, but it's kind of late to wake up just now. I played phase 1 and phase 2 beta as zerg and didn't mind the Imbalance bullshit since it was a beta.
But 2 weeks after the release, when i saw nothing changed, and i was struggling to win vs 50 apm 1 basing terrans, i just swaped to Protoss.
The sad part is that i hate 4 warpgating, but when i face a zerg player, i just go 4 warpgate, or 2 gate pressure into void rays, and it's instant win, my win ratio vs zerg is like 80% ...
Sad, i hope they fix it, since i played Z in BW and Z for 4 months worth of beta time, but i just can't play it anymore because it is so broken.
yeh playing Zerg since phase 1, too. SOme days ago i played Protoss first time ever and did 2 gate into 4 gate push. And damn... i was so schocked actually, how damn easy this shit is to execute. I felt so soory for my Zerg Opponent, he couldn't do shit against this.
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EPT
