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What would you propose?
Wait what? I do have propositions actually, but I feel like they are irrelevant. Blizzard is the one doing balance. Any statistical change can easily shift balance one way or the other. So your saying that no matter what we change, Zerg will either be underpowered or overpowered.
Think of a single relationship that supports that claim. I'm not going to waste my effort disproving it, though I easily could, because the burden of proof falls on you. So far, anything you've said that has resembled a supporting evidence has been verifiably wrong.
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This is pretty lulzy but I couldn't agree more with cool about dropships. Dropships with thors and marauders can be damn hard to manage without Scourge and Lair required Hydra, because marauders and thors do so much dps and soak so much damage, and the fact that you can pack more because you don't need medics. Its like if you can't destroy the dropship before it actually drops units, your base is already destroyed. 
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On September 24 2010 09:06 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:59 Teddyman wrote:
Looks like this Zerg *puts on sunglasses* lost his cool.
I hate you and love you at the same time... This is sad news, and it is interesting to see this coming from a Korean Zerg. Whenever people claimed that Korean Zergs were dominating, it made me wonder if it was the Zergs that were great or the Ts and Ps that hadn't caught up.
dominating what exactly? you might be referring to people who didnt/dont know what they are talking about
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On September 24 2010 09:05 Angra wrote:
I haven't read anything but the OP but I know there are going to be a ton of posts in this thread calling for wild ridiculous nerfs to Terran.
I really hope that does not happen.
My hope is that Blizzard gives something (or multiple things) to Zerg to catch them up with T and P. Either by switching around hydra and roach tech levels (hydra at tier 1.5, roach at tier 2) and changing their numbers accordingly, by giving them a unit (scourge or lurkers would help so much) or by adding/changing spells, like on the infestor. Just something that gives Zerg an extra THING to deal with T and P. I really don't want to see this game reduced down to nerfing the races that are interesting to even them out with the uninteresting races.
Actually most people are crying for zerg buffs.
IMO it requires a combination of both - a nerf to the macro mechanics of protoss/terran by adding a cooldown to their abilities and a buff to zerg.
At the top levels the macro mechanics are balanced because the pros never miss a timing. At the lower levels the macro mechanics are imbalanced because noobs always miss timings and zerg is the only one that you cannot "catch up" with.
I don't know what the solution is at the top level, but zerg really need something to let them be aggressive in the midgame without risking losing it all. Something that can take down rocks at a reasonable speed would be nice as well. It is ridiculous that as a zerg player your instant thought is "if I can survive to tier 3 then I have a chance of winning".
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Wow this thread is amazing. Just posted today but over 900 replies and over 100k views already.
<3 Cool, Cool fighting! GL against TOP it's going to be a hard one.
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I beg to differ. Zerg has no scouting VS terran without suiciding ovies. Thats about it. All game. My race has maphack, and terran can scan whenever, gradually losing them 300 minerals vs Zerg losing 200 minerals and 16 supply for the ovie pincer.
Zerg can be punish easily while terran cannot is also imba. It's not a "difference" it's something that only zerg suffers from, with nothing to balance it out. Terrans can easily find out about zerg mistakes and punish them. Zerg cannot do either.
Weak AA. Again, a weakness no other race has. Ex. Tosses Anti air is not as bad as zergs, but they are amazingly good against ground units lategame. Zerg is weakest on ground and air.
T3 is more necessary for zerg than any other race, and yet it's almost impossible to get. Toss needs T3 to beat bioballs, but we can get it with relative speed. Zerg can't
Your T1 scout example also fails. Why? Because protoss have incredible midgame scouting to balance it out. For zerg there is no such mitigating factor.
Need I go on?
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On September 24 2010 09:10 stormtemplar wrote:
Your T1 scout example also fails. Why? Because protoss have incredible midgame scouting to balance it out. For zerg there is no such mitigating factor.
lollolololol.
You mean that isolated statements of fact in disregard of context have absolutely no meaning or relevance, and your previous, incredibly obvious observations you pointed out were a complete waste of time?
Ok, thanks. What I was talking about.
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On September 24 2010 08:46 Zelniq wrote:
all i ask for is that we dont have to wait another long ass time for another patch that makes a few minor adjustments
This just in, we add 3 sec to marauder build time. Hopefully this will balance everything out.
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my thoughts on zerg are this
starcraft 1 the races felt VERY different. each had a far more varied style of play.
i feel like in starcraft 2 they ended up making the races too similar but then still tried to keep them varied. if you get what i mean?
for example.
Marauder/Roach/Stalker.
these units just seem very similar. sure they have varying statistics and different abilities. but they basically serve the same role for all. a high hp unit with average ranged damage. sure the roach beats the stalker pretty one sided but they still remain in that role.
then you have a tier 2 caster unit. HT/Ghost/Infestor they all have some sort of ranged damage spell (storm, emp, fungal(yes i know emp only does shields but it's used in the same way, against zerg you have snipe anyway) again these abilities and units all remain different but at the same time very similar. fitting the same role as one another.
there are many more examples like this and i think it's the complete WRONG direction for starcraft 2 to be heading it and the problem is it's unlikely to change. even with the expansions. Blizzard are very unlikely to remove units or completely rework them.
i think zergs weakness stems from this. They just are not supposed to work like this. starcraft 1 had fairly clearly defined roles for each race.
Terran was not really hardcore turtling but they had very strong defensive capabilities with siege tanks, bunkers and turrets.
Zerg favored mass expanding and fast moving but cheap and weak units.
Protoss had a very hard hitting army. high health. high armor. fairly slow moving army.
in starcraft 2 they seemed to look at
Terran basically had mobility and harassment added to their options.
Protoss i can't really give my opinion they dont seem very different except for faster reinforcement of their armies with forward pylons and warp gates.
Zerg had alot of their mobility removed in exchange for units with alot more hp and armor
just to hammer this point because i think people will reply to the wrong portions of it
i think the main problem with zerg is blizzard's lack of diversity in the races. they are nowhere near as different and varied as starcraft 1 races.
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As a Zerg player (Diamond 1481 points currently if anyone cares) I think that there are only 2 things that make zer UP, the most imporant is maps, and the 2nd one is reapers. Reapers are fucking good, they can kill the only unit that they cant kite, and if all of that means All-in no posible expo it would be ok, but a transtion out of 5 raxes all reaper shouldnt be possible.
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Bring back BW Hydras!
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I wonder how much of this rage is because COOL isn't trying new things.. I think there's some unexplored potential in zerg's early game.. Perhaps try going lair before building a queen, or something like that.. I don't know
I think that if the races are balanced, on paper, they're not in game play. It's very annoying to play zerg when you're defense and offense (wait, what offense, other than muta harass?) relies so heavily on preemptive tumoring/ovie positioning, unit positioning, unit attack timing, scouting, and absolutely perfect spawn larva timing (which isn't even possible).
All terran/toss have to do is 1a a giant ball of death.. It's not that easy for zerg, when you have mutas/lings/blings/roaches, all of which move at different speeds but need to enter the battle at a precise moment, relative to the units their grouped with. I think, in short, zerg mechanics are just too APM/attention intensive to stay competitive with them, against an equally skilled opponent who has more forgiving mechanics.
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I really hope everyone doesn't switch i love zerg players, I love dimaga and hope he stays but i mean there pros they gotta win and with Z its un needed disadavantage
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I really, really want Cool to beat TOP now.
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Haha. This discourages me to play zerg now.
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I only win vs. Terran if i am better at all. If the Terran is on same level as me in terms of Macro/Micro and Timings etc. pp. then there is like no way i can beat a Terran. That means, you are forced to be better at the game mechanics than the Terran... there is no chance that you can outplay a Terran via Tactics/Strategy etc. So, kinda normal that Pros are raging, where the Skill is more on a same Level than in a Ladder Session.
Hell... i even lose sometimes to Terran which are realy bad at their mechanics and timings etc. im playing like twice as good in macro/micro etc. but still can lose just to one stupid shit. I actually don't care about imbalances of some Units, like Tanks etc. I really care more about the Imbalance between the Races in terms of Skill required to be successful. Like som other guys here said, drewbie? You need like 500 APM to stop Terran drops which require like only 150 APM? I mean WTF... how is that balanced?
edit: ah btw. IMHO i don't think Zerg is to hard to play, i think Terran/Protoss is to easy to play compared to Zerg. Just my Opinion.
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On September 24 2010 08:51 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:29 Sfydjklm wrote:On September 24 2010 08:18 TT1 wrote:
z is a sick race, its not that its a weak race its just that its been stereotyped as the weakest race so no one is willing to play it.. that being said(i know that this getting old) but T is seriously too strong, i can feel it while im playing
imo these are the main changes that need to happen:
1) concusive shell need a cooldown(this is more TvP related)
2) mules need to have a shorter life spawn
3) banshee attack needs to be weakened
4) medivak drops need to be weakened(by either reducing the number of units that it can carry or by nerfing the marauder damage vs armored units/buildings) u mean noone as in ex-progamers Wind, Cool, Zergbong, Junwi and Julyzerg? yea youre right. what? im saying the reason why z isnt placing high in tournaments is because theyre under represented.. it doesnt matter who plays the race
You realize the reason they're underrepresented is because zerg is so underpowered they can't make it past qualifiers right?
GSL started with THOUSANDS of players, the people you saw in the Ro64 had to battle through a MASSIVE field of players to get to where they are. So what, you think herpy derr, terran plyrz r jst better den zerg, lol zerg is gud the plyerz just sux.
I'm not one of those players that blames my losses on zerg imbalance, I play zerg, I'm 1100+ in diamond, I've got ~60+% win/loss ratio, Zerg is good enough that I can still beat people that I'm explicitly better than. Zerg is not good enough for me to beat players of my same skill level that play terran or protoss, that's just how it is, but luckily, the ladder is full of bad players.
Tournament players on the otherhand, all for the most part have very similar levels of mechanical skill, so matches tend to be decided by tactics, and some of these tactics are "imbalanced" if executed properly, there is almost nothing zerg can make to beat a 200/200 army of 3/3 thor/hellion/marauder/viking. There's just nothing that can beat that, you can give me a supply cap of 250, and i'd still be unable to beat that. If blizzard would just re-introduce scourge, that'd be a huge step in the right direction but I think they're going to wait until HoTS for that, so we're pretty much just going to be fucked for 2 years.
User was warned for this post
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Lets face it. It will take ages for Blizzard to balance this.
I don't know if it would be worth it for all zerg to switch to terran atm time wise.
But my guess is yes.
And btw you should give props to TT1 for his statements about his own race.
There are a lot of "pros" that even whine about zerg like demuslim and naniwa..
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My view on zerg is that they don't have a strong enough tier 1/2 unit.
In BW, zerg had lurker that was able to buy 'em time (in case of ZvP) or enable them to take apart mid-game pushes (vs. terran).
In SC2, even though they have baneling/infestor, they are proving to be not as effective at this moment.
Perhaps giving banelings more health/armor or giving infestor's fungal growth longer range or longer duration might help ease the problem.
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Good for them, but it's kind of late to wake up just now. I played phase 1 and phase 2 beta as zerg and didn't mind the Imbalance bullshit since it was a beta.
But 2 weeks after the release, when i saw nothing changed, and i was struggling to win vs 50 apm 1 basing terrans, i just swaped to Protoss.
The sad part is that i hate 4 warpgating, but when i face a zerg player, i just go 4 warpgate, or 2 gate pressure into void rays, and it's instant win, my win ratio vs zerg is like 80% ...
Sad, i hope they fix it, since i played Z in BW and Z for 4 months worth of beta time, but i just can't play it anymore because it is so broken.
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EPT
