|
On September 21 2010 14:09 Rabiator wrote:
1. How do you want to prove it? Checking and validating these things is too much bureaucratic effort for the TL staff IMO.
2. The points are always increasing, so a fixed limit is junk anyways. What about plaers who drop below / stop playing?
3. Do you really think that only high rank players have the brains to think about it? Maybe they just have the reflexes but a brain like a moron?
Terrible idea ...
i dont know why noobs think they can just think/theory craft about starcraft balance/strategy
this would work if there wasnt time involved in this game
you dont know how squeezed you are in a matchup until you face the time constraints required to counter a certain build/army
like playing vs double gate zealot pressure into expand/double robo collossus timing attack
everyone noob and their mothers are gonna say something like "just get roaches and quick tech to brewdl0rds!"
|
Not sure if this is mentioned already but i think a rating system would be better where people can rate each other's posts and only the people with +100 rating can post on the subforums.
This way bronze leaugers who have a deep understanding and repectful has a chance to post.
Sure top player who are hated will not get to post but it will keep the trolls out.
Also having a 1200 pt requirement is unfair for us zergs at least for this patch.
|
I suggest 1,000+ for zerg, and 1,800+ for protoss and terran to encourage an equal level of discussion.
|
All the TL staff would have to do is limit it per user. Or better yet, have the high level players send the TL staff member a PM saying "allow me to post in this section." From there they can allow / deny. Simple as that
|
United Kingdom2950 Posts
I don't think it should really be based on points, but rather just a simple invite-only, no public write forum. Players and forum users who the TL admin staff believe are adequate posters and have a deep understanding of the game can then be invited to participate.
|
These people who claim that they are or their are players who are in low leagues or points but possess equal or greater knowledge then higher ranked players kind of reminds me of poker.
In the case of people who watch poker they all think that they can play at the highest level and scoff at pro players when they make mistakes, and they - while viewing all the cards, having all the information - will claim that they would make the correct play if they were in that spot.
|
On September 21 2010 14:20 Zeroes wrote:
Not sure if this is mentioned already but i think a rating system would be better where people can rate each other's posts and only the people with +100 rating can post on the subforums.
This way bronze leaugers who have a deep understanding and repectful has a chance to post.
Sure top player who are hated will not get to post but it will keep the trolls out.
Also having a 1200 pt requirement is unfair for us zergs at least for this patch.
There's no such thing as a bronze leaguer who has a deep understanding of the game. There's not having played enough to get to high rating, but if you have a deep understanding of the game you can get to diamond with only 10 apm. You don't need mechanics to get above platinum... a deep understanding of the game is plenty
|
I think the idea of having an 'elitest' forum where only the top players can post but is avaliable to everyone to read is an amazing idea - and to be honust, from my experiance in reading the strategy forums, this is almost a 'must have' idea for TL.
Although I disagree with 1200+
At the moment im flucturating from 1200-1300 (Havnt ladderd properly in about 2 weeks) and I would not be interested in reading ideas from people around my skill level.
I dont think people understand how ''easy'' it is to get to 1200-1300 at the moment, theres people up there who know one solid build and have average macro/micro and/or cheese there way to victory which is very easy to do since battle.net league games are a BO1.
Having a forum where TOP TOP players can post would be extremely interesting to read as these players have huge understanding of the game whereas 1200-1300 rated players do not
* Im not trying to flame all 1200-1300 people as I am one myself, but I just want to point out that the difference of skill level of players in 1200-1300 rating is hugely different as people have reached that level in different ways, some aquire alot more knowledge of the game on there journey up *
|
I say increase the point minimum from 1200+ to 1700+. Also, won't you have to constantly update the point value as everyone plays more?
|
On September 21 2010 14:12 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 14:09 Rabiator wrote:
1. How do you want to prove it? Checking and validating these things is too much bureaucratic effort for the TL staff IMO.
2. The points are always increasing, so a fixed limit is junk anyways. What about plaers who drop below / stop playing?
3. Do you really think that only high rank players have the brains to think about it? Maybe they just have the reflexes but a brain like a moron?
Terrible idea ... 1. Not at all 2. You know, there are measures of peoples' skill that don't inflate... And players who stop playing will probably stop posting as well, so I don't see the problem 3. Are you serious...
Part of the problem is players don't understand that knowing a colossus is good against hydras is not high level strategy. Knowing exactly what units can do, knowing all of the timings (including 60-100 food timings) is going to become a huge deal and unless you can actually execute at a high level and HAVE TO KNOW those timings, they're almost impossible to learn.
The other day I heard someone tell me "you can defend a 2 gate with a 14 hatch 14 pool". It sounded insane to me, I know how tough it is to defend a 2 gate with a 14 pool, and that's a pretty big delay. But then you see it and you realize that your pool will pop and you can have 4 larva ready and quickly build 2 queens which is a huge deal for defense vs having just 1 queen and 6 lings. And then my mind was literally BLOWN, it's EASIER to defend a 2 gate with a 14 hatch than with a 14 pool.
Again, players at my level (1000 diamond) are not in a position to even really figure out things at this level, very early timings because we don't have to, just getting better at the simplest things will push me to higher levels than any of that stuff. It's easy to look at a game from a high level player and see all the things he could have done that you "would have done", but what you don't see are the 1000 little mistakes that he didn't make that you would have. And the thing is, it's because he doesn't make those other mistakes that he's even in a position that his mistakes matter.
As someone less than 1200 diamond, and not yet at that level, I will openly say that players at my level are terrible, they don't know why they're scouting half the time, they don't know how to recognize very basic things and they poorly execute some build they probably copied of a decent player that they execute 1000x worse.
Important Point, also TL:DR
Even if some 500 gold player has an 1800 diamond level understanding of strategy, the gain from that is nowhere near the loss form the million other 500 gold players that will want to comment as well, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make, and many others who would be interested in reading higher level players thoughts should be willing to make. It is literally the difference between giving good players incentives to share their thoughts and not, and the former is clearly better.
|
This thread is great proof of the downsides to a ladder ranking system, it leads to elitism and arrogance. This game has not even been out 6 months and already we have players who want to segregate themselves from others because they view themselves as "better players".
The argument is going back and forth about whether good players have "enough knowledge" about the game. For the strategy forum, this may be the issue, but good post content goes far beyond the strategy forum. What about the guy who discovered the +7% mineral trick? Do we know that he is a 1500 point diamond player? If the best players know the most about the game, why didn't Idra or HuK make a post about this? What about the great posts about the number of optimal workers, the guy whose been making that awesome machinima, or the guy who created YABOT; were they 1200 point diamond players? What about HD and Husky, who brought us one of the best tournaments of the beta, how much do you want to bet they are not both 1200 point diamond players?
I get the issue, TL has been plagued by terrible posts and know-it-alls in the strategy forum spewing nonsense and acting like it is RTS gospel; in some cases even being so bold as to attempt to counter the knowledge of well know pro players. However the issue is not that they are simply not "as good of players". TL has been plagued by crap posts because TL has an abundance of crap posters. Good content is generated by good posters, not necessarily by good players. Good posters know when they can offer insightful strategy knowledge and when they should defer to players with more insight on the subject. Good posters know when they have something interesting and useful to share and when creating a thread would be a waste of electrons. Good posters know how to remain GM in the face of total noobery. Good posters know how to be good, contributing members of the community. Playing lots of Starcraft cannot and will not teach this, and segregating yourself from the rest of the community based on how many points you have in bnet would accomplish nothing other than to break a community in two.
Mind you I think the mods on TL do an excellent job of wielding the ban hammer and I mean no disrespect to them. But if anyone on TL deserves a special forum, it should the the posters who continually exhibit GM and whose posts are always full of good content. That would be something helpful to the community.
|
Let it be. Even noobs might have something important to add to conversations or point out something that needs discussion. People should just make better posts.
And mods could just release the kraken on the strategy forum.
|
On September 21 2010 14:34 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 14:20 Zeroes wrote:
Not sure if this is mentioned already but i think a rating system would be better where people can rate each other's posts and only the people with +100 rating can post on the subforums.
This way bronze leaugers who have a deep understanding and repectful has a chance to post.
Sure top player who are hated will not get to post but it will keep the trolls out.
Also having a 1200 pt requirement is unfair for us zergs at least for this patch. There's no such thing as a bronze leaguer who has a deep understanding of the game. There's not having played enough to get to high rating, but if you have a deep understanding of the game you can get to diamond with only 10 apm. You don't need mechanics to get above platinum... a deep understanding of the game is plenty
I just used bronze leaguer as an example and there are many low level who have good questions to ask.
I do think this system would be better than what the OP proposed.
Because:
1. Good players aren't always a good poster
2. It will filter out the BM and trolls
3. It will keep the quialty posters high
|
On September 21 2010 14:41 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
Let it be. Even noobs might have something important to add to conversations or point out something that needs discussion. People should just make better posts.
And mods could just release the kraken on the strategy forum.
As far as I know, it hasn't been suggested to eliminate any of the current forums/topics. It would simply allow the better players a place to post without having 10 random noskill players trying to say they are wrong. There's nothing stopping topics in a pro section from being also made in another section of the forum for discussion between everyone else.
Anyways, I'm for making a pro section for discussion to allow more of the upper-tier players to discuss issues without having randoms try to say they're wrong without proof, and it would allow imbalances to be spotted easier among the pro-level.
|
On September 21 2010 14:42 Zeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 14:34 -orb- wrote:On September 21 2010 14:20 Zeroes wrote:
Not sure if this is mentioned already but i think a rating system would be better where people can rate each other's posts and only the people with +100 rating can post on the subforums.
This way bronze leaugers who have a deep understanding and repectful has a chance to post.
Sure top player who are hated will not get to post but it will keep the trolls out.
Also having a 1200 pt requirement is unfair for us zergs at least for this patch. There's no such thing as a bronze leaguer who has a deep understanding of the game. There's not having played enough to get to high rating, but if you have a deep understanding of the game you can get to diamond with only 10 apm. You don't need mechanics to get above platinum... a deep understanding of the game is plenty I just used bronze leaguer as an example and there are many low level who have good questions to ask. I do think this system would be better than what the OP proposed.
Yes but the point/problem is there are far more low level players that are bitching and moaning about balance with almost no understanding of the game than low level players that genuinely want to learn to play and have good questions.
TL quality has dropped alot due to the masses of low level players starting whine thread after whine thread and bombarding any good post with flames. Honestly it's pretty hard to read or participate in the forums nowadays and I'm sure I'm not the only one who's started to visit less and less.
|
Being one of the bronze scrubs referred to by this, I would enjoy a sub forum where I could easily find intelligent threads to read rather than wading through all the threads that currently float around. If people come here to get better then it will only help them to have a restricted space that will protect them from learning bad ideas from other bad players.
I do however think points are meaningless and that a before suggested rating/karma system perhaps that automatically let you in if you provided a number of good posts to the forum that indicated you were worthy of having your ideas in the restricted space. It would make sense that you'd need a number of rated posts rather than a single or couple of well rated posts. For example many people would up vote a really good custom map like YABOT, but this doesn't necessarily indicate a user is able to discuss strategy. Many of these systems already exist and would be fairly simple to moderate compared to entirely subjective moderator choices or having to implement a custom battle net linkage system.
I think if the sub forum were open to the public, then people should have absolutely no issue with it. After all, if anything, this forum would benefit them. If good players feel they cannot contribute, then they will leave, and that will make TL a worse place overall. Having a super exclusive club would also give players incentive to get better and provide insightful posts in order to try and gain access.
I'm not certain something like this is required, however I think it would be a nice idea regardless if it could be implemented easily enough to make it worth doing.
|
I still think if top players really want to discuss without interruption, they can do so in an irc chat or whatever their preferred client is. If they care enough to help the community, they could post their chat logs. Discussion without interruption is extremely easy, if they want to talk amongst themselves yet have that chat available, they can.
Or if exceptionally skilled players want to help, they can make videos, or write articles. Sectioning off a section of the forum won't achieve much. People would likely condescend even more. They would urge each other to stick to their proper forums. The special members would be told to go back to their tower while those who missed the cutoff would be insulted for their low status. We aren't Sneetches. We don't need stars on our bellies.
Edit: That was post 123 for me. How appropriate that I referenced Dr. Seuss.
|
because a 50 post OP is the most trustworthy opinion
|
Meh. I find bronze leaguers are the most polite posters on TL. They know they're worse, so they don't have the ego to go around touting their ideas as truth/flaming other posters.
But if a system like this were to be implemented then I think it would be better to get pros on TL to verify a player as good enough to post rather than referring to ELOs. Skill varies too much in diamond for any reliability. You can get to 1200+ simply with mass games/cheese.
|
On September 21 2010 14:47 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 14:42 Zeroes wrote:On September 21 2010 14:34 -orb- wrote:On September 21 2010 14:20 Zeroes wrote:
Not sure if this is mentioned already but i think a rating system would be better where people can rate each other's posts and only the people with +100 rating can post on the subforums.
This way bronze leaugers who have a deep understanding and repectful has a chance to post.
Sure top player who are hated will not get to post but it will keep the trolls out.
Also having a 1200 pt requirement is unfair for us zergs at least for this patch. There's no such thing as a bronze leaguer who has a deep understanding of the game. There's not having played enough to get to high rating, but if you have a deep understanding of the game you can get to diamond with only 10 apm. You don't need mechanics to get above platinum... a deep understanding of the game is plenty I just used bronze leaguer as an example and there are many low level who have good questions to ask. I do think this system would be better than what the OP proposed. Yes but the point/problem is there are far more low level players that are bitching and moaning about balance with almost no understanding of the game than low level players that genuinely want to learn to play and have good questions. TL quality has dropped alot due to the masses of low level players starting whine thread after whine thread and bombarding any good post with flames. Honestly it's pretty hard to read or participate in the forums nowadays and I'm sure I'm not the only one who's started to visit less and less.
The people who bitch and moan about balance will not get good karma/ratings and won't be allowed to post in the sub fourms.
TL quality has dropped because of the masses it not all the low level people's fault. I know many daimond level players who rage about balance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
