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[D] Points system - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
August 29 2010 11:04 GMT
#21
On August 29 2010 19:33 Platypus wrote:
Win Ratio tells me if a player is good, for the most part...

I used to think that on Iccup until you see some of those 30-10 people that absolute garbage and cheese every game.

Win ratio means very very little
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Roggay
Profile Joined April 2010
Switzerland6320 Posts
August 29 2010 11:04 GMT
#22
The whole idea of the bonus pool is stupid to begin with, its merely an attempt to attract the casual players. My hope is that the MMR (your hidden ELO rating) will stabilise at a certain level, making your rating impossible to up more safely (like in WoW, a very few in his history attained 3000, and no one more).
Grummler
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany743 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 11:14:22
August 29 2010 11:12 GMT
#23
On August 29 2010 20:04 Inori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 20:01 Grummler wrote:
On August 29 2010 19:56 Inori wrote:
On August 29 2010 19:46 Grummler wrote:
On August 29 2010 19:37 Inori wrote:
On August 29 2010 19:27 Grummler wrote:
On August 29 2010 19:13 Inori wrote:
It's also very easy to hit top level if you start off later. For example, if you create an account now, you will have about 550-600+ bonus points saved up.


Everyone gets the exact same amount of bonus points. No mater if playing a lot or only once a week. If you start playing today you will get the same amont of bonus points as someone else who started on 27th july gathered over time.

The bonus point system is atleast fair.

The problem here is that unless you were playing ONLY when you had bonus pool, you will be at a disadvantage compared to someone who has all these points stacked up if he has at least 50% w/l ratio.

You get about 1 point per 2 hours I think.


Your reasoning doesnt make sense for me. Lets say 1 point / 2 hours is true. Then everyone will have got 408 bonus points. If you have spend them all, it doesnt matter when or how you spend them.

Let's say you have 10 points stacked up and you play 10 games in 50% w/l. You gain 10p and you lose 12p (that's about the numbers I keep getting in ladders.. actually I usually lose even more).

You will get:
10*5 + 10p bonus = 60p
You will lose:
12*5 = 60p

Overall: 0p gain

Now let's say you have 500p stacked up:
You will get:
10*5 + 10*5 = 100p
You will lose:
12*5 = 60p

Overall: 40p gain

That's assuming 50% w/l. As it gets higher, bonus pool stacking gets better.



your calculation is correct. But you forgot one important thing. They guy having only 10 points stacked up already got 490 bonus points EARLIER then the other guy. So, sure, in that short period the "i have mroe stacked up" guy gets more bonus points. Obviously. Cause he has more bonus points stacked up. But once he spend all, they will be equal again.

You keep missing my point that unless the guy that got points EARLIER will play ONLY when he has points, he will have them negated over time due to losses.


No, he wont. Why sould he? You dont lose bonus points due to losing. You lose points, true, but you wont get less bonus points. And as long as you dont lose more games then the "i save my bonus points"-guy you wont have less points.

And even if you lose more, you will still get the exact same amount of bonus points. Of course you will have less points overall, but thats because of losing more, not because you got less bonus points.
workers, supply, money, workers, supply, money, workers, ...
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 11:30:07
August 29 2010 11:28 GMT
#24
--- Nuked ---
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
August 29 2010 11:30 GMT
#25
Points are a bit stupid. Sure it makes casuals play the game, but it removes all forms of comparison.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
August 29 2010 11:32 GMT
#26
On August 29 2010 19:33 Platypus wrote:
Win Ratio tells me if a player is good, for the most part...


No, it tells you absolutly nothing.

A 50% top diamond player is a hell of alot better than a 60% gold player.

Win ratio just tells you if the system is working as intended.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
theonlyrio
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom200 Posts
August 29 2010 11:33 GMT
#27
well although i agree and dont enjoy this point system much,

i believe blizzard are going to reset the ladder every "season" whatever that maybe be hopefully a couple months at a time so it doesn't reach "9999" points.

but yh i agree that something has to change
I am the only rio
JudoChopper
Profile Joined August 2010
England148 Posts
August 29 2010 11:35 GMT
#28
On August 29 2010 20:32 Sanguinarius wrote:
No, it tells you absolutly nothing.

A 50% top diamond player is a hell of alot better than a 60% gold player.

Win ratio just tells you if the system is working as intended.

What about an 80% top Diamond player and a 65% top Diamond player, see what I did there?
no
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11806 Posts
August 29 2010 11:38 GMT
#29
It is a good thing we have point drift. Otherwise we would have people sitting at top and not playing. Just see Iccup, winning in lower tiers gives more points than you lose, also causing a point drift each season.
Glacius0
Profile Joined July 2010
Netherlands66 Posts
August 29 2010 11:39 GMT
#30
It seems the solution is rather simple for those that dislike the bonus pool system. Just have a site like sc2ranks.com add an option to display scores without the bonus points factored in.

The reasoning for the bonus pool system is to give players a sense of progress. If you didn't play for a while and feel that you got worse you will still be satisfied with the feeling of gaining points. In reality this may be a meaningless trick but to me it's kind of the same as people liking good graphics while only gameplay should matter.

Are you getting happy because your score is increasing even though it's meaningless anyway? Are you getting angry if you lose even though getting angry is meaningless anyway? We're human.
Zozo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Brazil2579 Posts
August 29 2010 11:39 GMT
#31
You lose/win points based on you MMR, bonus pool is nothing but a bait to get people to play (and it works).

Blizzard's top 200 uses MMR as far as we can tell, the system is good at keeping people playing due to a few tricks, there should just be a real ladder on the website on top of what we have.

It's healthy for the community that the new player can see his improvement from rank 85 bronze to rank 2 silver.
EGM guides me
Grummler
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany743 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 13:01:13
August 29 2010 11:51 GMT
#32
On August 29 2010 20:28 Inori wrote:
...

Let's assume we both enter Diamond at the same time. Both at 300 inital rating when we enter. Both have 50% w/l. Both gain 10pt at win and lose 12pt at loss. You will play every day for 10 days after that, 26 games per day, about 10 minutes per game (which means about 4 hours per day), while I wait to stack the points up for 10 days and after that only play untill I have enough points.

Your results:
Day1 results:
13*10 + 2 = 132pt gain
13*12 = 156pt loss

Every other day results:
13*10 + 2 + 10 (idling time) = 142pt gain
13*12 = 156pt loss

You will be at 136pt by day10.

Now my results:
Day10
13*10 + 12*10 = 250pt gain
13*12 = 156pt loss

I will be at 394pt by day10.

As the time goes on you will lose more and more points while I gain more and more due to stacking up.


Wrong. For several reasons:
+ Show Spoiler +

1. Reason
We BOTH lose 12 points for a loss, and get 10 points for a win. Ok so far. With 50% win/loss we will lose 1 point average after each game. Still, fine (well, maybe we should pratice more..)).
If i play 26 games/ day for 10 days, i played a total of 260 games, while you only played 26. Still, no problem.
BUT: Even if there were no bonus points AT ALL, i would obviously have LESS points then you, because we lose more points then we win the more we play and i played MORE than you.
I played 250 games more than you, that makes me lose 250 points more.
This would be even true if there were no bonus point system.

2. Reason
Well, you forgot to give me 10 bonus points on day 1. I mean, 1 point/ 2 hour. That makes us get 12 points/day. You only gave me 2. Also your math in calculating my total points is wrong. Using your number i get 150 points. With those forgotten 10 bonus points it sums up to 160.


With 12 points/day, we get 120 bonus points after 10 days. We started with 300 points.

Correct math for 10 days:
Me: 300 (starting) + 120 (bonus) -260 (losing 130 games, wining 130 games)=160 points
You: 300 (starting) + 120 (bonus) -26 (losing 13 games, wining 13 games)=394points

I mean, we get 12 bonus points/day. Period. No way to trick the system to give you more. The only reason why i have less points then you after those 10 days is because coincidentally you made the numbers that way, that playing more is bad.

With 12 points for winning, and -10 points for losing, it would be:
Me: 300 (starting) + 120 (bonus) +260 (losing 130 games, wining 130 games)=680 points
You: 300 (starting) + 120 (bonus) +26 (losing 13 games, wining 13 games)=446points

Oh my god, i have more points than you! So spending all bonus points as fast as possible makes me get more bonus points! No..wait..

Just to make it even more clear: We both got the exact same amount of bonus point. How could it be different? 12 points/day, nothing else. In your calculation we both suck at sc2. With me playing more, i lose more points due to suckage. Thats all.

In my calculation we both are not that bad. Playing games makes us get more points. I played more, so have more points. But still, we both got the exact same amount of bonus points.
workers, supply, money, workers, supply, money, workers, ...
REM.ca
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada354 Posts
August 29 2010 12:26 GMT
#33
I loooooove chess ratings. Please Blizz, just give me those!
I have a palm permanently stuck to my face yo.
Merano
Profile Joined January 2008
Austria105 Posts
August 29 2010 12:28 GMT
#34
Thanks that this thread was started, I was thinking of creating one too.

I can live with the rating point inflation for the top players. Global ranking sites are not official part of the game. The ranking Blizzard publishes do not show any points - so there is no inflation.

I am also quite happy with matchmaking. For me it seems to use the hidden points instead of the points messed up by the bonus pool.

But I see some problem for casual players (non-diamond). Currently, you start laddering with ~500 bonus points. If you have a 50% win ratio and gain ~12 points per win, you will need 42 wins or 84 games to consume you bonus pool. Each day you will need 2 more games to empty you pool. If you further play 2v2s and 3v3s, there are far more matches needed each day to consume your bonus pool.

Not all players care about the rating. But for them who care, but do not have time to play a lot, it might be frustrating. They are ranked far behind other players they can easily beat, but simply do not have the time yet to play so many games to get a fair ranking.

So after the next ladder reset, I would wish that only half or a quarter of the bonus points are distributed each day.
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
August 29 2010 12:40 GMT
#35
On August 29 2010 20:35 JudoChopper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 20:32 Sanguinarius wrote:
No, it tells you absolutly nothing.

A 50% top diamond player is a hell of alot better than a 60% gold player.

Win ratio just tells you if the system is working as intended.

What about an 80% top Diamond player and a 65% top Diamond player, see what I did there?


So you know that there are only 2 80% diamond players? Good work!

And there are only about 50 people >65% - all of which are damn good

Everyone else is lower than65% - so no, it tells you absolutely nothing

see?
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
Diks
Profile Joined January 2010
Belgium1880 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 13:06:09
August 29 2010 12:57 GMT
#36
Yeah i totally agree with OP.
Blizzard should really opt for an ELO-like system.

I wonder why they did this method ?
- Maybe in order to produce the effect "omg i'm getting stronger and stronger everyday !"
- Maybe they want to make people play more regulary
- Maybe both
- Maybe they have an evil hidden plan ?

EDIT : They claim SC2 is a competitve E-SPORT.
So give us ELO-like otherwise you're not credible at all, Blizz
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
August 29 2010 13:02 GMT
#37
i dont like it but blizz does give out a top 200 every week, and pretty much that shows who the top players are so just keep playing until you are on that board
JD, need I say more? :D
Yoshi
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands9 Posts
August 29 2010 13:07 GMT
#38
Maybe this is interesting for you to read, it also tells something about the bonus pool:

http://www.broodlings.com/battlenet-matchmaking-system.php
Spawn more overlords!
Hsanrb
Profile Joined May 2010
United States46 Posts
August 29 2010 13:10 GMT
#39
Maybe the bonus pool system has a hidden negative value that we don't see. Maybe having a high bonus pool shows Blizzard "Hey, this player has been idle over the past few days/weeks... lets lower the true rating (not the displayed points)" and will result in being placed lower on the top 200 then they should be. When I look at the bonus pool, I go "I need to play more" not because winning is worth more, but that the ladder is looking to tell me I've been idle (even if they are added before I started playing post guess pass) and that it may inadequately place me in the wrong league or hold off in advancing me (I'm in gold since placement.)
ejac
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States1195 Posts
August 29 2010 13:13 GMT
#40
For the most part, the point system does tell you who is better, assuming they've played enough games to keep up with inflation. Which is the big question, why the hell didn't blizzard design a system without inflation. Alas, I can only hope that blizzard comes up with a better algorithm in a future patch.

Win ratio doesn't tell you shit really, at lower levels of diamond I was 41-13 and as I've started to progressively play better people, it has become smaller as expected.
esq>n
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