EPTSame for BW.
Is SC2 Boring To Watch? - Page 25
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Juaks
United States384 Posts
Same for BW. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 31 2010 22:06 Cofo wrote: I like how the OP didn't mention BW a single time and this thread still devolved into SC2 vs BW. I guess it's impossible to evaluate SC2 as its own game. Because its a sequel to SCBW. It should improve on the original, not be worse. If sc2 was called something else and not made by blizzard and had different race names and unit models, it wouldnt be as big as it is today even if the game was the same. The only reason people are playing sc2 is because they hope it will be as good as SC1 and things get fixed for the better. People WANT sc2 to do good, because they want to see a game comparable and better than BW. | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On August 31 2010 13:00 Redmark wrote: Then you've got thousands of dollars to win. Get out there and claim all that easy money. Firstly, I am very highly ranked on the EU ladder (1400+) and am more than competitive with all of these guys. If I needed the money it would certainly be an avenue I'd explore. I'm not delusional, I don't think I'd beat everybody, but I'd be in the running for sure. Unfortunately you must have have misunderstood the first part of my post where I said it's about picking the correct build (luck) and timing (lots of luck as well). True skill in Brood War is about insane multitasking and micro, something which simply doesn't exist in SC II. The game is dumbed down to such an extent that random elements play a much larger role than they should. Watch BratOK vs WhiteRa Go4SC2 game 2 on Lost Temple and tell me that's pro level play. Observe BratOK's worker production, ok? That is WarCraft III, sir. Zero punishment for neglecting economy. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On August 31 2010 23:08 HalfAmazing wrote: Unfortunately you must have have misunderstood the first part of my post where I said it's about picking the correct build (luck) and timing (lots of luck as well). True skill in Brood War is about insane multitasking and micro, something which simply doesn't exist in SC II. The game is dumbed down to such an extent that random elements play a much larger role than they should. Watch BratOK vs WhiteRa Go4SC2 game 2 on Lost Temple and tell me that's pro level play. Observe BratOK's worker production, ok? That is WarCraft III, sir. Zero punishment for neglecting economy. feel pretty much the same way. when i play against a 1050 rated T that produced 22 workers the whole game and just allins from one base till his mins run dry i facepalm and wish the game was more like broodwar where he coudlnt even win bnet public games. i win and lose so many where i dont really know why. im not so cocky that i think im a great player when i kill a Z with a hellion+rauder attack/a 4gate or when i kill a T cause he suddenly has 2 charged voidrays in his base from a hidden stargate. this isnt skill. i could teach a 8 year old how to execute such stuff. but currently this game is more about catching the enemy offguard in one way or another then actually outplaying em. | ||
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gray-fox
Finland62 Posts
Reaver-shuttle, two units working together like that. And stacked mutalisks. Vultures. It's just so much fun and requires so much skill compared to stimmed and a-moved mmm. But sc2 is evolving all the time, maybe we will see better and more creative play in the future. | ||
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bRuTaL!!
Finland588 Posts
On August 31 2010 23:38 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: feel pretty much the same way. when i play against a 1050 rated T that produced 22 workers the whole game and just allins from one base till his mins run dry i facepalm and wish the game was more like broodwar where he coudlnt even win bnet public games. i win and lose so many where i dont really know why. im not so cocky that i think im a great player when i kill a Z with a hellion+rauder attack/a 4gate or when i kill a T cause he suddenly has 2 charged voidrays in his base from a hidden stargate. this isnt skill. i could teach a 8 year old how to execute such stuff. but currently this game is more about catching the enemy offguard in one way or another then actually outplaying em. First of all, nothing is easy when its human vs. human. Look at football (soccer), all you do is kick a ball and run, easy. What makes it hard is that you have to do it better than others. Your also contradictiong yourself. In my opinion, if you caught someone offguard with voidrays you OUTPLAYED them. If your good your not going to be beaten or caught offguard by the examples you gave. And if you can teach the tactic to a 8-year-old who then goes on beats player X, chances are that the 8-year-old was better than player x to start with. Hence, he outplayed him. The better player beats the worse one. So, give SC2 sometime to develop and try to be more objective. BW was "easy" as well when it came out... | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On September 01 2010 02:08 bRuTaL!! wrote: First of all, nothing is easy when its human vs. human. Look at football (soccer), all you do is kick a ball and run, easy. What makes it hard is that you have to do it better than others. Your also contradictiong yourself. In my opinion, if you caught someone offguard with voidrays you OUTPLAYED them. If your good your not going to be beaten or caught offguard by the examples you gave. And if you can teach the tactic to a 8-year-old who then goes on beats player X, chances are that the 8-year-old was better than player x to start with. Hence, he outplayed him. The better player beats the worse one. So, give SC2 sometime to develop and try to be more objective. BW was "easy" as well when it came out... So if i build stalkers only while hiding stargates in an obscure location on the map and get voidrays, and beat TLO because he didnt see the stargates and got only marauders, it means i outplayed him and im better than him? cool! I guess Wrong bro. Sorry your logic is just so flawed it hurts. Pros lose games in ladder all the time, does that mean that the random ladder scrub who beat them that one game, even though they would have lost in a best of 5, is better than the pro? no. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
But what do I know, go challenge him and tell me how it went. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On September 01 2010 02:16 Beef Noodles wrote: The chances of your plan working are slim to none. TLO is a good enough player that judging from your army size, he could tell you are tech switching, and he would try and scout for that. Also stargates are a huge investment and hiding them somewhere on the map is super risky. If TLO didn't just push you and kill you when you tried to tech switch, he would probably be prepared for the voidrays anyway. Also, pros don't just make marauders. But what do I know, go challenge him and tell me how it went. you seem to be missing the point. | ||
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koOma
Norway462 Posts
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Deindar
United States302 Posts
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On September 01 2010 02:16 Beef Noodles wrote: The chances of your plan working are slim to none. TLO is a good enough player that judging from your army size, he could tell you are tech switching, and he would try and scout for that. Also stargates are a huge investment and hiding them somewhere on the map is super risky. If TLO didn't just push you and kill you when you tried to tech switch, he would probably be prepared for the voidrays anyway. Also, pros don't just make marauders. But what do I know, go challenge him and tell me how it went. thats why voidray rushes never win right? ohwait watch mlg matches, watch tlo vs whitera/tester etc if you consider getting a surprise voidray charged is outplaying the enemy, fine. i dont.and i dont even want to argue about such stuff. not to mention that you pretty much didnt get my point to begin with. On September 01 2010 02:24 Deindar wrote: Totally disagree. I love watching SC2! this may be in part because the game is still kind of being figured out, so theres so much new play all the time. i mean in brood war right now, people FLIP OUT when a new strategy comes along because everyone's done it b4. in sc2 though, there are new strats coming out everyday. what you say is definitly true. but i dont see whats exciting about the "new" strats. it doesnt matter much if a P 1a's a zeal/stalker/immortal army in or a zeal/stalker voidray. it doesnt matter much if the terran 1as with rauder hellion or rine/thor. in the end the battles are 90% decided by who build what when and look like some kind of unit arena where 2 balls engage eachother and the winner wins the game. i just miss the amazing macro ,micro, fights for mapcontrol and positioning. cause all of that is mostly gone. its mass up Rock, hope when you attack the enemy doesnt have enough Paper and done. sc2s gameplay is more like wc3 then broodwar atm with all the "ball A meets ball B, winner takes the game" and 1/2 base play. which is terrible in my opinion and gets boring very fast. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On September 01 2010 02:08 bRuTaL!! wrote: First of all, nothing is easy when its human vs. human. Look at football (soccer), all you do is kick a ball and run, easy. What makes it hard is that you have to do it better than others. This is just ridiculous.  Tic Tac Toe is difficult because it's played against another human being? Every game has a skill ceiling and StarCraft II's is low -- at least compared to Brood War. Checkers is played against another human, but the game has already been cracked by computers. It is impossible to beat an algorithm! Chess is more complex and even though there are very sophisticated computer programs out there, the best human players will still beat them more often than not. Games are like puzzles, all of them can be cracked. Some simply take longer than others, and that is a measure of their complexity and relative skill ceiling. StarCraft II is more like checkers than chess, and it is not debatable that it requires considerably less skill to play well. This means it simply doesn't offer players the same framework to apply creativity within, and is therefore boring. The game is simply too small and not demanding enough. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
@koOma The voidray switch was only the nail in the coffin... the protoss was already winning.. bad example I'm not saying voidrays can't win... I'm saying a scrub player cannot beat TLO just by going voidrays... @MannerDu.. wasn't talking to you. Didn't even read your post | ||
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whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
...................... BOOM ~ Amazing all the marines are dead with that much bannelings. ...........OMFG that terran players doing triple drop ships snipe the nexuses !!!!!!!! ..... Early game is boring yes even broodwar . Midgame to late is awesome. | ||
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bRuTaL!!
Finland588 Posts
On September 01 2010 02:12 tacrats wrote: So if i build stalkers only while hiding stargates in an obscure location on the map and get voidrays, and beat TLO because he didnt see the stargates and got only marauders, it means i outplayed him and im better than him? cool! I guess Wrong bro. Sorry your logic is just so flawed it hurts. Pros lose games in ladder all the time, does that mean that the random ladder scrub who beat them that one game, even though they would have lost in a best of 5, is better than the pro? no. Well, duh. In a single match the best might not win, its the same for every game. But if your good enough to keep TLO at bay while you get voidrays and use them effectively enough to win, then you cant be too bad. But also, if you know your a lot better than someone else then its smart to cover all bases, even if does make sense for your opponent to do those things... | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
that was a good game, lots of micro. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
I personally don't think so, but they are very annoying because they can with the game in seconds if you are not careful (very similar to how siege tanks can win in seconds if a line of them siege up your natural as zerg if you are not careful). But people will start to take more and more precautions to avoid this. Look at BW. Reavers could win the game in seconds with a couple good scarabs. Everyone knew this, so they were constantly on their toes, and eventually reavers stopped doing insane amounts of damage because players were ready for them. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
SC2 is the same way. The truly elite players have produced some fantastic games in the short period the game has been out. Crazy and original strategies (see: TLO), amazing macro (see: Idra) and micro (lots of the top Koreans). They've been well-played, dramatic, highly competitive and unpredictable, and fun as hell for hardcore and casual fans alike (as evidenced by Husky and HD getting millions of views by broadcasting lots of the best replays--if they weren't fun for casual fans to watch, no way would those guys get that many views). But the game is young. There aren't many players who can perform at that level. So you have lots of uninspiring, samey matchups where people just do the expected thing, or curbstomps when one of those supposedly "elite" daimond players goes against a real progamer. I don't think this is a problem with the game. I don't even think its a "problem" with the playerbase, in the sense of there being something that Blizzard or players could have done differently. It is simply an inevitable result of a flood of relatively new players coming into a new game. As time goes on, we will see more truly elite players emegre, and the bar for truly elite will get higher (for instance, right now Idra's mechanics are pretty much unparalleled. But thats just because he has more practice than everyone else. As other players get better, those kind of top notch mechanics will become the norm for the most elite players). That will inevitably result in more competitive, better played, and ultimately, more fun and exciting games for spectators. | ||
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It's Brood War for idiots, imo.
