EPTTo be honest... I don't think a lot of the players are all that good. When I watch S-Class Brood War play... they play so pristine and smoothly. Everything they do is perfect and then when I watch Starcraft 2 I see so many mistakes and errors (not just little ones, big mistakes) from the supposed "Top Players" but I guess the game has only been out a little over a month...
Is SC2 Boring To Watch? - Page 24
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tbrown47
United States1235 Posts
To be honest... I don't think a lot of the players are all that good. When I watch S-Class Brood War play... they play so pristine and smoothly. Everything they do is perfect and then when I watch Starcraft 2 I see so many mistakes and errors (not just little ones, big mistakes) from the supposed "Top Players" but I guess the game has only been out a little over a month... | ||
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Victim
United States188 Posts
On August 31 2010 11:52 Sephy69 wrote: What bores me about SC2 is that a lot of the mechanics are so easy now, and it's just not amazing to watch people do things (mainly send out a force to attack). In Brood War you were limited on the number of units you can put on 10 hotkeys and was pretty difficult to control so much units. It was amazing to watch these players control so many units at once along with other things that have changed in SC2. There you have it, those are my reasons why I don't like SC2, but hey 2 expansions are coming out so there's a chance my mind will change! I was never the biggest Broodwarrior, but that's one of the reasons why I have more interest in SC 2. Brood War play - however great the demand for technical skill and speed - has left me cold in the few matches I've seen because so much of it seems to be about overcoming or exploiting the game interface, pathfinding, and such. It seems to me that Executing Mutalisk micro, shuttle yoyos, mass mining while macroing off 3+ bases (with like 10 factories...) might be demanding and thus impressive in that sense, but 11 mutalisks having the same volume as 1 just seems silly to me. I generally have a pretty high tolerance for purely 'game' elements in RPGs and such, but for some reason, that kind of thing in Starcraft really annoys me. The way units tend to fight in SC2 twigs my BS sensor a lot less, so I can enjoy the game more. A terran ball seems less like an ugly blob to me and more like the creation of a larger unit - instead of 10 guys with guns; a platoon of soldiers. And perhaps also that even though top level gamers are way way above my skill, there's still a sort of approachability to it. I mean, the AI for units could be completely stripped out so units don't fire at all without target fire commands to increase the micro requirement for the game. And maybe you can't group units at all and can only issue commands to one unit at a time. Then it would be an amazing feat just to have your guys fight in a battle! But I don't really think it'd be a better game; just harder in a rather pointless way. Obviously, that's a bit of an extreme example though.  That being said, I hope that you don't lose what you enjoy in BW. But it doesn't seem like it'll go away soon. | ||
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tbrown47
United States1235 Posts
On August 31 2010 18:02 Victim wrote: I was never the biggest Broodwarrior, but that's one of the reasons why I have more interest in SC 2. Brood War play - however great the demand for technical skill and speed - has left me cold in the few matches I've seen because so much of it seems to be about overcoming or exploiting the game interface, pathfinding, and such. It seems to me that Executing Mutalisk micro, shuttle yoyos, mass mining while macroing off 3+ bases (with like 10 factories...) might be demanding and thus impressive in that sense, but 11 mutalisks having the same volume as 1 just seems silly to me. I generally have a pretty high tolerance for purely 'game' elements in RPGs and such, but for some reason, that kind of thing in Starcraft really annoys me. I don't like hating on other peoples opinions... but that is what makes a game dynamic... Those are the kind of things that makes games EXCITING. Starcraft 2 is just so... obvious. Units counter other units, so you just build the counter to them. There is very little room for creativity... Don't get me wrong... there are clever things you can do in Starcraft 2, such as TLO's EMP OC+Nuke (while not that effective, still interesting). But for the most part of Starcraft 2 games I watch... just seems to be the same thing. Broodwar would be a very boring game if there wasn't Muta Stacking, Reaver+Shuttle micro, Stop Lurkers, etc. That is the problem with Starcraft 2... it doesn't have any of those things. Oh well, opinions are opinions... however I really feel the need to discount yours. The reason why Broodwar is alive still are the very problems you seem to have with it. | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
All damage was scaled down in broodwar. It was easier to make a comeback because advantages were much more gradual. In sc2 if your army is caught out of position for just a split second and your opponent even has a hair of common sense, you lose any chance of winning with one swift decisive battle. Whether you lose your expo or your army the game is decide right there and then. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Few points that really degrade the BW experiment for me, and I would imagine that it would be the same for anyone who starts watching them in this day and age: 1) The game looks like utter crap. It would be okay if the resolution could be upped, but alas. 2) The metagame has evolved so greatly, I find it difficult to follow different strategies. Stuff just happens and usually I tend to have no idea who is even in the lead. I think a person who is very into BW and understands all the tactical nuances, will enjoy it greatly. For any newcomer, SC2 is infinitely easier to understand and much more pleasing to the eyes, with much more modern tools that allow you to follow pretty much every nuance of the game. SC2 is obviously by far the most E-sports -friendly game they've done, and ultimately has far more potential of bringing more people into the scene. | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On August 31 2010 19:47 Bagi wrote: I enjoy watching SC2 far more than I enjoy SC1. Probably because I havent really followed the SC1 scene since 2003 or such, and dont have such huge amounts of nostalgia and admiration for BW. I was actually more into WC3 the last few years (BLASPHEMY!). I know this is the place where BW is the holy grail and anyone dissing it will probably be deemed a total noob, but it doesnt really matter to me. Few points that really degrade the BW experiment for me, and I would imagine that it would be the same for anyone who starts watching them in this day and age: 1) The game looks like utter crap. It would be okay if the resolution could be upped, but alas. I actually think purely design-wise it's better than SC2 in almost every aspect. The resolution is lower and that's the only thing that makes it "look old", other than the fact that it's 2D (only because developers don't ever make any 2D games anymore however more fitting it is for some genres). 2) The metagame has evolved so greatly, I find it difficult to follow different strategies. Stuff just happens and usually I tend to have no idea who is even in the lead. Seriously? I showed a game of BW to a "recent" non-BW RTS player (he's been playing the Supreme Commander series only) and he immediately could tell who was winning in most situations, and more often than not why players were doing what they were doing. Oh and you also have to take into account the fact that listening to english-speaking casters obviously helps a ton in understanding what's going on during a game and who's winning and why. | ||
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Cranberries
Wales567 Posts
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simme123
Sweden810 Posts
Also the maps that are on the ladder currently don't make for fun games. Delta quadrant looks promising but gief andromeda and fighting spirit those were awesome maps for sweet games same with Python, HBR, Tau Cross, Neo Medusa and Outsider. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On August 31 2010 18:00 tbrown47 wrote: It isn't nearly as entertaining as Brood War imo. But that could be just because in my subconscious I know that the stage they are playing on isn't as big as the Brood War one, so my opinion might be skewed. To be honest... I don't think a lot of the players are all that good. When I watch S-Class Brood War play... they play so pristine and smoothly. Everything they do is perfect and then when I watch Starcraft 2 I see so many mistakes and errors (not just little ones, big mistakes) from the supposed "Top Players" but I guess the game has only been out a little over a month... You're absolutely right. Top players of today won't be the top players of tomorrow, perhaps except one or two. They play bad compared to what i've seen possible in other RTS, and even broodwar. So far i have only seen a few games where they did play well, and they were korean top players. European and American except a few, are lagging behind by a lot. There's something we have to remember. If i want to be professional at playing an instrument, it will take years. It's not possible to do it in a few months even if i practice 8h a day, unless i have a rare natural talent for it. All amazing pianists have years of experience. Most top players of today aren't really that good tbh, compared to how good they could be, i see a lot of mistakes all the games. They tend to 1a, instead of splitting army and attacking in 2, 3 or 4 directions at the same time when possible, idle army, etc etc. I remember a game where Ensnare did that, while the zerg was going with his big army around, he couldn't compete with him attacking from everyside, and having great control on all of those little armies. Ensnare ended up winning with apm about 250 + average. This is why there are a lot of top unkown top players, its hard, but not that hard to be top right now. | ||
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kataa
United Kingdom384 Posts
SC2 on the other hand, is probably the damn smoothest playing RTS ever to grace this earth. I don't think you'll see the kind of evolution in SC2 you saw in SC1. As has been mentioned before, alot of the techiques from SC1 carry over, at least the theoretical ones. Evolution will happen, we'll find some more 'magic box' like tricks, and build orders will change with each patch and certain shifts in the meta-game (caused by big tournaments likely) but the RTS world is in a very different place now than it was back in 2001. Overall, I think you'll just see a shift away from one-base play into more expanding and macro play, but I think big balls of MMM will be a central feature of SC2 for many, many years to come. | ||
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Arovien
United States123 Posts
PvT is so exciting to watch because P actually have a fighting chance to win; same with ZvP. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
I mean, it just doesn't compare to BW obviously. | ||
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vlf
Portugal170 Posts
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Fixit
Argentina2 Posts
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
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Radison
Poland44 Posts
On August 31 2010 19:09 kidcrash wrote: Things die too fast and battles end too quickly. (...) All damage was scaled down in broodwar. It was easier to make a comeback because advantages were much more gradual. In sc2 if your army is caught out of position for just a split second and your opponent even has a hair of common sense, you lose any chance of winning with one swift decisive battle. Whether you lose your expo or your army the game is decide right there and then. I totally agree! | ||
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Moshlol
Australia1 Post
I do agree though it is boring and I get sick of playing it constantly myself hopefully they end up doing something with mech to give terran more choice without making it imbalanced (although if you ask me a force with such lack of mobility probably deserves to hit like a truck). | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
On August 31 2010 22:06 Cofo wrote: I like how the OP didn't mention BW a single time and this thread still devolved into SC2 vs BW. I guess it's impossible to evaluate SC2 as its own game. Even wc3 is more entertaining  Hah i didn't use BW No seriously Broodwar has 10 times better and clearer graphics which is really great when shown on Tv | ||
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
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vek
Australia936 Posts
On August 31 2010 22:06 Cofo wrote: I like how the OP didn't mention BW a single time and this thread still devolved into SC2 vs BW. I guess it's impossible to evaluate SC2 as its own game. If I had've evaluated SC2 as its own game instead of being to sequel to the best RTS of all time I would not have paid $150 for the CE. Instead I was blinded by the fact it was Starcraft and ended up wasting my money. I just don't think SC2 is a very good game. I don't find it fun to watch for many reasons. I don't find it interesting to play. Comparing it to Brood War is what people should be doing rather than falling into the trap of "BUT IT'S STARCRAFT" like I did when I bought it. The game really needs to improve if it's going to even reach the success of WC3... I agree with a lot of people that the "terran is op" "nerf this nerf that" rubbish needs to stop. There are far more basic things like: - Making units more interesting - Tightening unit control - Improving sound design - Cleaning up the graphics - Battle.net needs to be usable You can sit there trying to balance the hell out of everything your entire life. It is impossible. Balance should be achieved like it was in Brood War by having a higher skill cap so player skill overcomes minor imbalances. That is what makes a game truly exciting to watch and amazingly fun to play. I hope Starcraft 2 can achieve this. | ||
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