On August 26 2010 10:42 Tropics wrote: i dont think you understand what a comparison is but even if you do you certainly didnt understand my post.
read my last post again if you want to know what a magic box actually is.
theres no magic box in sc2, its just moving units. you don't have to do anything specific, you literally give the units a move command and they act that way. i just really loathe people giving something a term that means something entirely different, the only reason people call it that is to try and sound like they know what they're talking about and it frustrates me, its complete misuse of terminology by people who don't understand it.
But your last post doesn't accurately explain the whole Magic Box theory - MB refers to moving units and then stopping/holding them, not attacking with them. If you attack with a bunch of mutas, a-move or FF, they'll clump up and get curbed by whatever they're attacking - if you stop/hold command them, they'll retain their formation and do a bit of their own curbing.
hitting h makes it a magic box? wheres the logic? not to mention that after you spread your mutas over their army you can a-click (not focus firing one thor, just a-clicking anywhere) and they'll all start attacking and wont fall out of formation. they dont fall out of formation because of any sort of secret box theory. these aren't magic boxes!
by this logic spreading your marines against lurkers is magic box. spreading mutas vs an archon is magic box. this is basic fucking micro. magic box was called that in brood war because when you did these things it made units behave in a way they're not supposed to, it completely changed their ai. this is units acting like they're supposed to because of simple control. its just micro, not anything magical.
this baneling patrol spread is much more an abuse of engine or ai than any of what is being called "magic box" right now.
On August 26 2010 11:16 Tropics wrote: hitting h makes it a magic box? wheres the logic? not to mention that after you spread your mutas over their army you can a-click (not focus firing one thor, just a-clicking anywhere) and they'll all start attacking and wont fall out of formation. they dont fall out of formation because of any sort of secret box theory. these aren't magic boxes!
by this logic spreading your marines against lurkers is magic box. spreading mutas vs an archon is magic box. this is basic fucking micro. magic box was called that in brood war because when you did these things it made units behave in a way they're not supposed to, it completely changed their ai. this is units acting like they're supposed to because of simple control. its just micro, not anything magical.
this baneling patrol spread is much more an abuse of engine or ai than any of what is being called "magic box" right now.
Sorry, but this IS changing the way that their AI reacts - their movement AI. It quite obviously works and makes a hell of a difference. If you have such a problem with the terminology, just leave it alone; you don't really care that much about us "mis-using" a term, do you?
Also, that's not my post or video; it's from the thread that me and the original poster linked, where the Magic Box theory was applied to SC2.
it doesn't change the way they move goddamn are you stupid or something
its giving them a damn move command. theres no trick over having units in a specific area or selecitng a certain number. you MOVE THE UNITS. that is the entire goddamn trick, that you move them past what you want to attack then a-move. this is literally how the units move around in the game normally, nothing you are doing here changes this. the only difference is you aren't a-moving into 20 thors like a retard, you are moving past them then a-clicking. BASIC MICRO that is completely normal with every other unit in the goddamn game, but since its mutas it must be magic box
i suppose controlling marauders against zealots is magic animation cancel kiting or some silly shit, controlling marines vs lurkers is magic marine spread box control
literally the logic that you are using to claim this is magic boxes
On August 26 2010 11:31 Tropics wrote: it doesn't change the way they move goddamn are you stupid or something
its giving them a damn move command. theres no trick over having units in a specific area or selecitng a certain number. you MOVE THE UNITS. that is the entire goddamn trick, that you move them past what you want to attack then a-move. this is literally how the units move around in the game normally, nothing you are doing here changes this. the only difference is you aren't a-moving into 20 thors like a retard, you are moving past them then a-clicking. BASIC MICRO that is completely normal with every other unit in the goddamn game, but since its mutas it must be magic box
i suppose controlling marauders against zealots is magic animation cancel kiting or some silly shit, controlling marines vs lurkers is magic marine spread box control
literally the logic that you are using to claim this is magic boxes
You're arguing pedantic nonsense in an otherwise productive thread; nobody cares about what logic we're using regarding whether or not this is Magic Box (except you). Just in case you need a reminder - you're posting on the Internet, not your F'ing debate class.
Then again, if you really want to argue logic, let's give it a go just so I can envisage a red-faced picture of you banging away at your keyboard, nerd-raging out another reply -
A: If you have units in a spread-out formation, they will fight against splash-damage units more effectively.
B: If you move units utilizing the (Starcraft 2) Magic Box technique, they will retain their formation instead of clumping, when they reach the target.
C: Move units with the (Starcraft 2) Magic Box technique against splash-damage units and they won't get beaten like a redheaded stepchild, because they retained their spread-out formation.
The term "magic box" refers to one of the less-known peculiarities of StarCraft's game engine that allows for high level execution when understood properly. In StarCraft, a group of units will maintain formation depending on how far apart they are from each other. Said simply, if you keep your units close enough, they will stay in formation, move in formation, and cast spells in formation. If your units are too far apart, they will lose formation, converge onto one location, and try to cast spells on the same location.
Watch the video again - "gathering" his units and letting them spread out keeps them within the Magic Box to start, so that they'll retain formation. "Patrol Micro" spreads the units out within the Magic Box so that they can hold formation.
The different commands make the units and their movement AI react differently, with holding formation or clumping (whichever is desired) upon reaching the target being the desired result, based on the combat situation that they're going to be in, BASED ON WHETHER OR NOT YOU FOLLOWED THE MAGIC BOX principle/technique.
A really interesting side effect of zerg being considered "underpowered" is that a lot more creative solutions are coming up in ways to fight the other races. I like it. Bring me moar :D
On August 26 2010 11:16 Tropics wrote: hitting h makes it a magic box? wheres the logic? not to mention that after you spread your mutas over their army you can a-click (not focus firing one thor, just a-clicking anywhere) and they'll all start attacking and wont fall out of formation. they dont fall out of formation because of any sort of secret box theory. these aren't magic boxes!
by this logic spreading your marines against lurkers is magic box. spreading mutas vs an archon is magic box. this is basic fucking micro. magic box was called that in brood war because when you did these things it made units behave in a way they're not supposed to, it completely changed their ai. this is units acting like they're supposed to because of simple control. its just micro, not anything magical.
this baneling patrol spread is much more an abuse of engine or ai than any of what is being called "magic box" right now.
Sorry, but this IS changing the way that their AI reacts - their movement AI. It quite obviously works and makes a hell of a difference. If you have such a problem with the terminology, just leave it alone; you don't really care that much about us "mis-using" a term, do you?
Also, that's not my post or video; it's from the thread that me and the original poster linked, where the Magic Box theory was applied to SC2.
You tell them to move, they move.
You tell them to stop, they stop.
They see enemy units, they shoot.
The AI is functioning perfectly.
This is not changing the "movement" AI this is just saying if you have a bunch of flying units together and you don't click in the middle of them they wont clump.
This is unit control aka micro, and yes if you want to properly discuss anything at a level higher than telling someone who has never heard about SC2 before about SC2 you should have proper terms.
I know it's being nit picky but come on, your on TL to discuss SC. It's like when people bust out the META GAME whenever they want to and well... it makes discussions confusing.
On August 26 2010 11:31 Tropics wrote: it doesn't change the way they move goddamn are you stupid or something
its giving them a damn move command. theres no trick over having units in a specific area or selecitng a certain number. you MOVE THE UNITS. that is the entire goddamn trick, that you move them past what you want to attack then a-move. this is literally how the units move around in the game normally, nothing you are doing here changes this. the only difference is you aren't a-moving into 20 thors like a retard, you are moving past them then a-clicking. BASIC MICRO that is completely normal with every other unit in the goddamn game, but since its mutas it must be magic box
i suppose controlling marauders against zealots is magic animation cancel kiting or some silly shit, controlling marines vs lurkers is magic marine spread box control
literally the logic that you are using to claim this is magic boxes
Why are you so mad, Magic Box is a term Blizzard coined themselves which allows players to keep unit formation in Sc1/Sc2.
blizzard didnt coin magic box, jesus christ. some guy put it in a video 3 months after everyone found out about it and called it that acting like it was new, thats the only time its ever been mentioned in sc2.
in bw im sure some korean came up with it. blizzard didnt do shit, magic box refers to breaking their AI, they don't have a term for that.
On August 26 2010 11:54 Tropics wrote: but you don't move units using a magic box technique
you literally give the move command to units
that is the technique
what don't you understand about this
You don't move them with MB - you put them in formation BEFORE MOVING THEM using MB. Is that enough to give you an "Oooooohhhhh!" moment, or are you still going to bash your head against the side of this argument?
How they react when they get there, by clumping or not clumping, is what they do based on their movement AI. See what I'm getting at?
Clicking in the center of the box to "gather" and then spread out the units before moving them is Magic Box. Utilizing "patrol micro" to spread them out before moving them is Magic Box. That's what you refuse to understand about this technique (or are too stupid to understand about this technique, but I digress)...
your units go into formation by themselves unless you manually clump them yourself and then move them before giving them time to destack. theres no trick to putting them into formation, you let them sit there and they do it themselves.
i cant believe im actually having to explain this to someone, this is ridiculous
On August 26 2010 11:59 Tropics wrote: blizzard didnt coin magic box, jesus christ. some guy put it in a video 3 months after everyone found out about it and called it that acting like it was new, thats the only time its ever been mentioned in sc2.
in bw im sure some korean came up with it. blizzard didnt do shit, magic box refers to breaking their AI, they don't have a term for that.
The thing is, Blizzard implemented an engine that lets you group units together in a formation. The reason why in BW you can storm at the same time is because this system or engine that is being implemented let you do that, not because Ai was being broken.
This system/engine, whether you like it or not, has been coined the MAGIC BOX. Spreading out Mutas or Banelings is a technique that can be applied DUE to Magic Box being in Sc2, the same reason you can spread out and keep a formation of units in Sc1.
On August 26 2010 12:07 Tropics wrote: your units go into formation by themselves unless you manually clump them yourself and then move them before giving them time to destack. theres no trick to putting them into formation, you let them sit there and they do it themselves.
i cant believe im actually having to explain this to someone, this is ridiculous
Yea the reason they go into formation by themselves is due to this system, the Magic Box, is in place. It's now a standard in RTS granted but at the time was something relatively new.
roarman, you have no idea what you are talking about
blizz didnt do any of that intentionally in brood war. brood war actually had magic boxes, and they were called that because they made units behave in special ways they normally wouldn't have. the ai was being broken, you think muta stacking which took 7 years to get discovered was intentional?
magic box is not in starcraft 2, not even slightly, and you do those things by simply patrolling or moving units. the only way you could possibly think magic box is in starcraft 2 is if you don't know what magic boxes were in brood war.
On August 26 2010 12:13 Tropics wrote: roarman, you have no idea what you are talking about
blizz didnt do any of that intentionally in brood war. brood war actually had magic boxes, and they were called that because they made units behave in special ways they normally wouldn't have. the ai was being broken, you think muta stacking which took 7 years to get discovered was intentional?
magic box is not in starcraft 2, not even slightly, and you do those things by simply patrolling or moving units. the only way you could possibly think magic box is in starcraft 2 is if you don't know what magic boxes were in brood war.
Sorry, I can't resist - what's your source? You must work for Blizzard or something, right; that's how you know all this.
On August 26 2010 12:13 Tropics wrote: roarman, you have no idea what you are talking about
blizz didnt do any of that intentionally in brood war. brood war actually had magic boxes, and they were called that because they made units behave in special ways they normally wouldn't have. the ai was being broken, you think muta stacking which took 7 years to get discovered was intentional?
magic box is not in starcraft 2, not even slightly, and you do those things by simply patrolling or moving units. the only way you could possibly think magic box is in starcraft 2 is if you don't know what magic boxes were in brood war.
Sorry, I can't resist - what's your source? You must work for Blizzard or something, right; that's how you know all this.
On August 26 2010 12:13 Tropics wrote: roarman, you have no idea what you are talking about
blizz didnt do any of that intentionally in brood war. brood war actually had magic boxes, and they were called that because they made units behave in special ways they normally wouldn't have. the ai was being broken, you think muta stacking which took 7 years to get discovered was intentional?
magic box is not in starcraft 2, not even slightly, and you do those things by simply patrolling or moving units. the only way you could possibly think magic box is in starcraft 2 is if you don't know what magic boxes were in brood war.
Sorry, I can't resist - what's your source? You must work for Blizzard or something, right; that's how you know all this.
because ive played starcraft for the past 4 years and anyone whos even remotely interested in the game will at some point have seen this stuff
where do you come up with this
"well how do u no blizz didnt invent muta stack???? IT ONLY TOOK 7 YEARS TO GET DISCOVERED, IT MUST HAVE BEEN INTENTIONAL"
EPT
