Hello Teamliquid folks! Inspired by game one between Dimaga and Morrow on Steppes of War from the IEM, and the increasingly popular Mutalisk Magic Box technique, I sat down and explored potential ways to apply the magic box technique elsewhere in the Zerg arsenal. This thread is not a semantic debate about the term 'Magic Box'. Please discuss the technique, not the title.
In the game, Dimaga went muta-baneling versus Morrow's marines, tanks, and medivacs. In one major confrontation at the center of the map, Dimaga established a nice concave to let his banelings approach the bio ball from multiple flanks. However, Morrow's tanks proved too plentiful and Morrow suffered minimal casualties. Acid, futile acid, stained the fertile grasslands.
This technique can be used to reduce the effects of splash on baneling balls charging toward balls of marines who are supported by tanks. It also increases the baneling's potency versus a roach/hydra/infestor ball in ZvZ, since fungal growth is not as effective (and if you've never seen banelings tear up hydralisks, I suggest you go into a unit tester right now).
A group of banelings looking to get shelled.
How it Works
As with mutalisks, a group of selected banelings are assigned a "magic box" which will cause the units to maintain their formation within that box when you issue a move command outside of it. If you manually spread out a small group of banelings and tell them to move, they will maintain their formation as they move. However, manually spacing out small groups banelings proves to be a demanding task, never mind spacing out 10+.
Confident banelings marching to victory
Enter the PATROL command. When you select a group of banelings and issue a patrol command (not too near, not too far), they will gradually space themselves out as each individual baneling tries to execute their patrol. The STOP command will freeze the banelings in their formation, and when you tell them to move, they will maintain their formation. The system will have a hard time assigning a magic box for patrolling banelings which have assumed an erratic shape. A single click + STOP command will fix this, assuming you aren't dealing with too large a group.
Coach Bobby Baneling delivers a pep talk as his rag-a-muffins get ready for the fight
With the patrol method of spreading your banelings, you can issue a patrol command when your banelings spawn in your base and forget about the patrol until you need them for a battle. Alternatively, you can wait a couple seconds, press STOP, and have your formations established prior to a battle.
Large Groups of Banelings
This technique only worked for me with groups of banelings no smaller than about 16-20. For larger baneling groups, the magic box system appears to have difficulties maintaining unit formations, and when you issue a move command, and they will cluster as they reach their destination. You can still issue a patrol command to spread them out, but afterward you must issue move commands in smaller groups. This is the only work-around I have come up with, if someone finds a better one, I invite you to share.
I implore you to explore the possibilities of this technique and share your experiences here. If you can refine this technique in any way, please also share.
Edit! See this thread for more uses of patrol micro to combat clustering! Sorry for not spotting it originally!
I love how slowly tiny micro tricks are found out, Magic boxing has been in my ZvT for AGES in my custom games (I'm T on ladder *hides*), but this is a good trick to space them out, gonna try that with marines too.. :D (to counter your precious banelings!!
This looks like a pretty cool technique. Will definitely help w/marine tank a lot. However, when dealing with pure bio, I think just letting them cluster is probably better so they don't get picked off 1 by 1.
This was actually found quite a while ago but still interesting. Just tried it and while it spreads the banelings initially, attacking with a decent amount of banelings will still cause them to clump. Now what needs to be done is determine exactly how many banelings fit inside each magic box to prevent them from clumping when going on attack move.
On August 26 2010 07:55 kNyTTyM wrote: This was actually found quite a while ago but still interesting. Just tried it and while it spreads the banelings initially, attacking with a decent amount of banelings will still cause them to clump. Now what needs to be done is determine exactly how many banelings fit inside each magic box to prevent them from clumping when going on attack move.
They'll always clump if you a move...the point of magic box is to just move, like with mutas.
besides, there is no reason to a move banelings, they still do damage even if enemy kills them.
I'd just like to add that every unit has a box size in which it maintains it's formation (bigger units have bigger boxes). If you make a selection that is bigger than this box then the units will clump when you issue a move command.
Cool, and now we'll be hearing the term "magic box" in a lot of sc2 casts now. Or, for simplicity sake, they'll probably just say "He boxed his banelings in that attack!", "The boxed mutas took care of those Thors!"
I wonder what the korean announcers will call it? "Boxuuuuuuuuuu!!"
Besides being better when advancing on tanks/collosii, I can't really think of a situation that this is all that useful... They still get funneled around units and terrain if the enemy runs.
Just tried this with 15 banelings and it takes a few tries to get right. I feel like i was pushing the maximum size of the box here, when i patrolled them but they were too scattered when i hit S they would clump back up when moved. You really have to have a good eye to see when the spread is maximum without them clumping up.
Oh and obviously tight chokes / ramps kill your formation.
this won't work with more then 16 imo, you will need multiple boxed baneling groups in big fights. I do not know how practical this is.
On August 26 2010 08:32 gerundium wrote: Just tried this with 15 banelings and it takes a few tries to get right. I feel like i was pushing the maximum size of the box here, when i patrolled them but they were too scattered when i hit S they would clump back up when moved. You really have to have a good eye to see when the spread is maximum without them clumping up.
Oh and obviously tight chokes / ramps kill your formation.
this won't work with more then 16 imo, you will need multiple boxed baneling groups in big fights. I do not know how practical this is.
I got as many as twenty to work after a few tries. Players will have to make multiple boxed groups to prevent larger groups from clustering. This is good, as it adds an extra dimension of skill, and if you're investing in 30+ banelings (750 gas!) I imagine players with skill will want to make the most of them.
I've been experimenting with this too actually. It really does show results. I've also tested it using about 13 zerglings in a perfect formation to use as cannon fodder against a siege tank army. If the zerglings are spread out well (and they will stay spread out due to magic box) it takes 13 siege tank shots to kill them all, which will give the rest of your army a lot of time to run towards the siege ball without getting pelted on the way there.
Here's a tip to getting your magic box to the perfect size.
After you order your units to stop, order them to move somewhere, lets say a range of 7 to the right. Click stop right away. If the group was to big to "fit" in the magic box, they should have gotten a bit closer together now. Repeat this, moving your units down. Repeat in a clockwise-manner until your units stop moving closer to one another. It is then you reached the near-best magic-box size.
This would be most powerful (but much more time consuming) if you manually spreading each unit in a box shape to cover the most surface area of the box as possible while still maintaining unit-spread.
On August 26 2010 07:55 kNyTTyM wrote: This was actually found quite a while ago but still interesting. Just tried it and while it spreads the banelings initially, attacking with a decent amount of banelings will still cause them to clump. Now what needs to be done is determine exactly how many banelings fit inside each magic box to prevent them from clumping when going on attack move.
They'll always clump if you a move...the point of magic box is to just move, like with mutas.
besides, there is no reason to a move banelings, they still do damage even if enemy kills them.
The banelings still clump if you just move command. Mutalisks clump when they a-move because they acquire targets then stop right in their attack range not because a-move discounts magic box. Large baneling groups still clump well before their attack range and get railed on by tanks. Why? Because of magic box area.
Magic box refers to this specific amount of space a set of units can occupy. When all units are within this box and are issued a command, they stay in formation. However, grouping even a single unit outside of this space will cause clumping. So after hitting patrol and letting them spread, you must know exactly how many of them to select. Selecting one outside the box leads to immediate clumping. Selecting only the banes inside a box will allow them to remain spread out. To prevent bunching you must know exactly how large this magic box is and group units accordingly. That's what the second part of my post refers to.
So currently the trick is about as effective as splitting banes into 3 groups before 1a moving. If their is a clever way of knowing determining exactly how many banes to group the this will becomes amazing.
"Magic box" has been the term since BW days...this is not a new discovery/term. (Not trying to negate this thread or further insights into how the magic box works in SC2 at all. I appreciate the efforts ;P)
magic box in bw is an entirely different phenomenon
that refers to placing units in certain formations and moving them in a special way to glitch out the engine and make it do strange things. i.e telling 4 ht to cast a storm and having them blanket storm rather than all on one spot. or having a group of air units clustered, while having one far off in the distance so they stack and don't spread. that is magic box
in sc2 what happens is people move units. thats literally all it is. magic boxing in sc2 is the equivalent of not a-moving. theres no special trick to making mutas not stack, you just give them a move command and tell them to attack when they're in the desired position. theres nothing magic about it, nothing that makes the engine break itself. its moving your goddamn units
Now I get why some people like IdrA clicks attack move their army waaaay past the opponents army.
They actually cluster less the further away you click, which makes it so much easier to get good surrounds and concaves. I just realized that when I was testing this patrol thing out.
On August 26 2010 09:34 Tropics wrote: magic box in bw is an entirely different phenomenon
that refers to placing units in certain formations and moving them in a special way to glitch out the engine and make it do strange things. i.e telling 4 ht to cast a storm and having them blanket storm rather than all on one spot. or having a group of air units clustered, while having one far off in the distance so they stack and don't spread. that is magic box
There is smartcasting of spells in SC2. There is not in BW. I don't see how that's a good comparison. The Magic Box can be used to blanket spells effectively, but that is not its only use.
in sc2 what happens is people move units. thats literally all it is. magic boxing in sc2 is the equivalent of not a-moving. theres no special trick to making mutas not stack, you just give them a move command and tell them to attack when they're in the desired position. theres nothing magic about it, nothing that makes the engine break itself. its moving your goddamn units
The engine does not break. Please search for "magic box" here on teamliquid. There are quite a few in-depth analyses on it. It is something that is in the engine and an advanced technique to use.
Why so serious? If you don't like the term, then don't use it..
i dont think you understand what a comparison is but even if you do you certainly didnt understand my post.
read my last post again if you want to know what a magic box actually is.
theres no magic box in sc2, its just moving units. you don't have to do anything specific, you literally give the units a move command and they act that way. i just really loathe people giving something a term that means something entirely different, the only reason people call it that is to try and sound like they know what they're talking about and it frustrates me, its complete misuse of terminology by people who don't understand it.
On August 26 2010 10:42 Tropics wrote: i dont think you understand what a comparison is but even if you do you certainly didnt understand my post.
read my last post again if you want to know what a magic box actually is.
theres no magic box in sc2, its just moving units. you don't have to do anything specific, you literally give the units a move command and they act that way. i just really loathe people giving something a term that means something entirely different, the only reason people call it that is to try and sound like they know what they're talking about and it frustrates me, its complete misuse of terminology by people who don't understand it.
But your last post doesn't accurately explain the whole Magic Box theory - MB refers to moving units and then stopping/holding them, not attacking with them. If you attack with a bunch of mutas, a-move or FF, they'll clump up and get curbed by whatever they're attacking - if you stop/hold command them, they'll retain their formation and do a bit of their own curbing.
I'm pretty sure that it's possible to shift-H or shift-S at the end of other queued commands - I wonder if you could do a "manual patrol" with multiple moves to space them out and then add an S/H stop them in formation?
On August 26 2010 10:42 Tropics wrote: i dont think you understand what a comparison is but even if you do you certainly didnt understand my post.
read my last post again if you want to know what a magic box actually is.
theres no magic box in sc2, its just moving units. you don't have to do anything specific, you literally give the units a move command and they act that way. i just really loathe people giving something a term that means something entirely different, the only reason people call it that is to try and sound like they know what they're talking about and it frustrates me, its complete misuse of terminology by people who don't understand it.
But your last post doesn't accurately explain the whole Magic Box theory - MB refers to moving units and then stopping/holding them, not attacking with them. If you attack with a bunch of mutas, a-move or FF, they'll clump up and get curbed by whatever they're attacking - if you stop/hold command them, they'll retain their formation and do a bit of their own curbing.
It's not really the magic box, in broodwar it would force the AI to do something it isn't supposed to.
In your mutalisk example they are just moving in a flock then stopping then attacking instead of moving then attacking as soon as they are in range. I think this is more like basic unit control.
But either way you say it doesn't matter as long as you get your point across, which comes up as a problem when people have different definitions for certain terms.
I think SC2 needs it's own thread with terms and abbreviations like BW does.
Edit: I think these types of things would be more akin to vulture micro in BW
On August 26 2010 10:42 Tropics wrote: i dont think you understand what a comparison is but even if you do you certainly didnt understand my post.
read my last post again if you want to know what a magic box actually is.
theres no magic box in sc2, its just moving units. you don't have to do anything specific, you literally give the units a move command and they act that way. i just really loathe people giving something a term that means something entirely different, the only reason people call it that is to try and sound like they know what they're talking about and it frustrates me, its complete misuse of terminology by people who don't understand it.
But your last post doesn't accurately explain the whole Magic Box theory - MB refers to moving units and then stopping/holding them, not attacking with them. If you attack with a bunch of mutas, a-move or FF, they'll clump up and get curbed by whatever they're attacking - if you stop/hold command them, they'll retain their formation and do a bit of their own curbing.
hitting h makes it a magic box? wheres the logic? not to mention that after you spread your mutas over their army you can a-click (not focus firing one thor, just a-clicking anywhere) and they'll all start attacking and wont fall out of formation. they dont fall out of formation because of any sort of secret box theory. these aren't magic boxes!
by this logic spreading your marines against lurkers is magic box. spreading mutas vs an archon is magic box. this is basic fucking micro. magic box was called that in brood war because when you did these things it made units behave in a way they're not supposed to, it completely changed their ai. this is units acting like they're supposed to because of simple control. its just micro, not anything magical.
this baneling patrol spread is much more an abuse of engine or ai than any of what is being called "magic box" right now.
On August 26 2010 11:16 Tropics wrote: hitting h makes it a magic box? wheres the logic? not to mention that after you spread your mutas over their army you can a-click (not focus firing one thor, just a-clicking anywhere) and they'll all start attacking and wont fall out of formation. they dont fall out of formation because of any sort of secret box theory. these aren't magic boxes!
by this logic spreading your marines against lurkers is magic box. spreading mutas vs an archon is magic box. this is basic fucking micro. magic box was called that in brood war because when you did these things it made units behave in a way they're not supposed to, it completely changed their ai. this is units acting like they're supposed to because of simple control. its just micro, not anything magical.
this baneling patrol spread is much more an abuse of engine or ai than any of what is being called "magic box" right now.
Sorry, but this IS changing the way that their AI reacts - their movement AI. It quite obviously works and makes a hell of a difference. If you have such a problem with the terminology, just leave it alone; you don't really care that much about us "mis-using" a term, do you?
Also, that's not my post or video; it's from the thread that me and the original poster linked, where the Magic Box theory was applied to SC2.
it doesn't change the way they move goddamn are you stupid or something
its giving them a damn move command. theres no trick over having units in a specific area or selecitng a certain number. you MOVE THE UNITS. that is the entire goddamn trick, that you move them past what you want to attack then a-move. this is literally how the units move around in the game normally, nothing you are doing here changes this. the only difference is you aren't a-moving into 20 thors like a retard, you are moving past them then a-clicking. BASIC MICRO that is completely normal with every other unit in the goddamn game, but since its mutas it must be magic box
i suppose controlling marauders against zealots is magic animation cancel kiting or some silly shit, controlling marines vs lurkers is magic marine spread box control
literally the logic that you are using to claim this is magic boxes
On August 26 2010 11:31 Tropics wrote: it doesn't change the way they move goddamn are you stupid or something
its giving them a damn move command. theres no trick over having units in a specific area or selecitng a certain number. you MOVE THE UNITS. that is the entire goddamn trick, that you move them past what you want to attack then a-move. this is literally how the units move around in the game normally, nothing you are doing here changes this. the only difference is you aren't a-moving into 20 thors like a retard, you are moving past them then a-clicking. BASIC MICRO that is completely normal with every other unit in the goddamn game, but since its mutas it must be magic box
i suppose controlling marauders against zealots is magic animation cancel kiting or some silly shit, controlling marines vs lurkers is magic marine spread box control
literally the logic that you are using to claim this is magic boxes
You're arguing pedantic nonsense in an otherwise productive thread; nobody cares about what logic we're using regarding whether or not this is Magic Box (except you). Just in case you need a reminder - you're posting on the Internet, not your F'ing debate class.
Then again, if you really want to argue logic, let's give it a go just so I can envisage a red-faced picture of you banging away at your keyboard, nerd-raging out another reply -
A: If you have units in a spread-out formation, they will fight against splash-damage units more effectively.
B: If you move units utilizing the (Starcraft 2) Magic Box technique, they will retain their formation instead of clumping, when they reach the target.
C: Move units with the (Starcraft 2) Magic Box technique against splash-damage units and they won't get beaten like a redheaded stepchild, because they retained their spread-out formation.
The term "magic box" refers to one of the less-known peculiarities of StarCraft's game engine that allows for high level execution when understood properly. In StarCraft, a group of units will maintain formation depending on how far apart they are from each other. Said simply, if you keep your units close enough, they will stay in formation, move in formation, and cast spells in formation. If your units are too far apart, they will lose formation, converge onto one location, and try to cast spells on the same location.
Watch the video again - "gathering" his units and letting them spread out keeps them within the Magic Box to start, so that they'll retain formation. "Patrol Micro" spreads the units out within the Magic Box so that they can hold formation.
The different commands make the units and their movement AI react differently, with holding formation or clumping (whichever is desired) upon reaching the target being the desired result, based on the combat situation that they're going to be in, BASED ON WHETHER OR NOT YOU FOLLOWED THE MAGIC BOX principle/technique.
A really interesting side effect of zerg being considered "underpowered" is that a lot more creative solutions are coming up in ways to fight the other races. I like it. Bring me moar :D
On August 26 2010 11:16 Tropics wrote: hitting h makes it a magic box? wheres the logic? not to mention that after you spread your mutas over their army you can a-click (not focus firing one thor, just a-clicking anywhere) and they'll all start attacking and wont fall out of formation. they dont fall out of formation because of any sort of secret box theory. these aren't magic boxes!
by this logic spreading your marines against lurkers is magic box. spreading mutas vs an archon is magic box. this is basic fucking micro. magic box was called that in brood war because when you did these things it made units behave in a way they're not supposed to, it completely changed their ai. this is units acting like they're supposed to because of simple control. its just micro, not anything magical.
this baneling patrol spread is much more an abuse of engine or ai than any of what is being called "magic box" right now.
Sorry, but this IS changing the way that their AI reacts - their movement AI. It quite obviously works and makes a hell of a difference. If you have such a problem with the terminology, just leave it alone; you don't really care that much about us "mis-using" a term, do you?
Also, that's not my post or video; it's from the thread that me and the original poster linked, where the Magic Box theory was applied to SC2.
You tell them to move, they move.
You tell them to stop, they stop.
They see enemy units, they shoot.
The AI is functioning perfectly.
This is not changing the "movement" AI this is just saying if you have a bunch of flying units together and you don't click in the middle of them they wont clump.
This is unit control aka micro, and yes if you want to properly discuss anything at a level higher than telling someone who has never heard about SC2 before about SC2 you should have proper terms.
I know it's being nit picky but come on, your on TL to discuss SC. It's like when people bust out the META GAME whenever they want to and well... it makes discussions confusing.
On August 26 2010 11:31 Tropics wrote: it doesn't change the way they move goddamn are you stupid or something
its giving them a damn move command. theres no trick over having units in a specific area or selecitng a certain number. you MOVE THE UNITS. that is the entire goddamn trick, that you move them past what you want to attack then a-move. this is literally how the units move around in the game normally, nothing you are doing here changes this. the only difference is you aren't a-moving into 20 thors like a retard, you are moving past them then a-clicking. BASIC MICRO that is completely normal with every other unit in the goddamn game, but since its mutas it must be magic box
i suppose controlling marauders against zealots is magic animation cancel kiting or some silly shit, controlling marines vs lurkers is magic marine spread box control
literally the logic that you are using to claim this is magic boxes
Why are you so mad, Magic Box is a term Blizzard coined themselves which allows players to keep unit formation in Sc1/Sc2.
blizzard didnt coin magic box, jesus christ. some guy put it in a video 3 months after everyone found out about it and called it that acting like it was new, thats the only time its ever been mentioned in sc2.
in bw im sure some korean came up with it. blizzard didnt do shit, magic box refers to breaking their AI, they don't have a term for that.
On August 26 2010 11:54 Tropics wrote: but you don't move units using a magic box technique
you literally give the move command to units
that is the technique
what don't you understand about this
You don't move them with MB - you put them in formation BEFORE MOVING THEM using MB. Is that enough to give you an "Oooooohhhhh!" moment, or are you still going to bash your head against the side of this argument?
How they react when they get there, by clumping or not clumping, is what they do based on their movement AI. See what I'm getting at?
Clicking in the center of the box to "gather" and then spread out the units before moving them is Magic Box. Utilizing "patrol micro" to spread them out before moving them is Magic Box. That's what you refuse to understand about this technique (or are too stupid to understand about this technique, but I digress)...
your units go into formation by themselves unless you manually clump them yourself and then move them before giving them time to destack. theres no trick to putting them into formation, you let them sit there and they do it themselves.
i cant believe im actually having to explain this to someone, this is ridiculous
On August 26 2010 11:59 Tropics wrote: blizzard didnt coin magic box, jesus christ. some guy put it in a video 3 months after everyone found out about it and called it that acting like it was new, thats the only time its ever been mentioned in sc2.
in bw im sure some korean came up with it. blizzard didnt do shit, magic box refers to breaking their AI, they don't have a term for that.
The thing is, Blizzard implemented an engine that lets you group units together in a formation. The reason why in BW you can storm at the same time is because this system or engine that is being implemented let you do that, not because Ai was being broken.
This system/engine, whether you like it or not, has been coined the MAGIC BOX. Spreading out Mutas or Banelings is a technique that can be applied DUE to Magic Box being in Sc2, the same reason you can spread out and keep a formation of units in Sc1.
On August 26 2010 12:07 Tropics wrote: your units go into formation by themselves unless you manually clump them yourself and then move them before giving them time to destack. theres no trick to putting them into formation, you let them sit there and they do it themselves.
i cant believe im actually having to explain this to someone, this is ridiculous
Yea the reason they go into formation by themselves is due to this system, the Magic Box, is in place. It's now a standard in RTS granted but at the time was something relatively new.
roarman, you have no idea what you are talking about
blizz didnt do any of that intentionally in brood war. brood war actually had magic boxes, and they were called that because they made units behave in special ways they normally wouldn't have. the ai was being broken, you think muta stacking which took 7 years to get discovered was intentional?
magic box is not in starcraft 2, not even slightly, and you do those things by simply patrolling or moving units. the only way you could possibly think magic box is in starcraft 2 is if you don't know what magic boxes were in brood war.
On August 26 2010 12:13 Tropics wrote: roarman, you have no idea what you are talking about
blizz didnt do any of that intentionally in brood war. brood war actually had magic boxes, and they were called that because they made units behave in special ways they normally wouldn't have. the ai was being broken, you think muta stacking which took 7 years to get discovered was intentional?
magic box is not in starcraft 2, not even slightly, and you do those things by simply patrolling or moving units. the only way you could possibly think magic box is in starcraft 2 is if you don't know what magic boxes were in brood war.
Sorry, I can't resist - what's your source? You must work for Blizzard or something, right; that's how you know all this.
On August 26 2010 12:13 Tropics wrote: roarman, you have no idea what you are talking about
blizz didnt do any of that intentionally in brood war. brood war actually had magic boxes, and they were called that because they made units behave in special ways they normally wouldn't have. the ai was being broken, you think muta stacking which took 7 years to get discovered was intentional?
magic box is not in starcraft 2, not even slightly, and you do those things by simply patrolling or moving units. the only way you could possibly think magic box is in starcraft 2 is if you don't know what magic boxes were in brood war.
Sorry, I can't resist - what's your source? You must work for Blizzard or something, right; that's how you know all this.
On August 26 2010 12:13 Tropics wrote: roarman, you have no idea what you are talking about
blizz didnt do any of that intentionally in brood war. brood war actually had magic boxes, and they were called that because they made units behave in special ways they normally wouldn't have. the ai was being broken, you think muta stacking which took 7 years to get discovered was intentional?
magic box is not in starcraft 2, not even slightly, and you do those things by simply patrolling or moving units. the only way you could possibly think magic box is in starcraft 2 is if you don't know what magic boxes were in brood war.
Sorry, I can't resist - what's your source? You must work for Blizzard or something, right; that's how you know all this.
because ive played starcraft for the past 4 years and anyone whos even remotely interested in the game will at some point have seen this stuff
where do you come up with this
"well how do u no blizz didnt invent muta stack???? IT ONLY TOOK 7 YEARS TO GET DISCOVERED, IT MUST HAVE BEEN INTENTIONAL"
On August 26 2010 12:13 Tropics wrote: roarman, you have no idea what you are talking about
blizz didnt do any of that intentionally in brood war. brood war actually had magic boxes, and they were called that because they made units behave in special ways they normally wouldn't have. the ai was being broken, you think muta stacking which took 7 years to get discovered was intentional?
magic box is not in starcraft 2, not even slightly, and you do those things by simply patrolling or moving units. the only way you could possibly think magic box is in starcraft 2 is if you don't know what magic boxes were in brood war.
Sorry, I can't resist - what's your source? You must work for Blizzard or something, right; that's how you know all this.
because ive played starcraft for the past 4 years and anyone whos even remotely interested in the game will at some point have seen this stuff
where do you come up with this
"well how do u no blizz didnt invent muta stack???? IT ONLY TOOK 7 YEARS TO GET DISCOVERED, IT MUST HAVE BEEN INTENTIONAL"
Oh boy, 4 years. Gosu...
Wave your fucking e-peen elsewhere, dude. The same argument can be applied to what you're saying. OH IT MUST BE A "GLITCH IN THE AI" BECAUSE IT DOESN'T BEHAVE AS I PERSONALLY INTUITIVELY THINK IT SHOULD....get a fucking grip.
Are you capable of rationally debating without calling people idiots and cursing all the time, or can you just act like a 12-year-old halo rager?
^ That post, is made in style of all your posts in this thread. Seriously...doesn't make you cool.
Tropics is right too btw. The Magic Box does not exist in SC2. Whats giving people the illusion that the mystical magic box is actually there is merely just the player spreading out his units and they retain their spread as they move. The units take the quickest path to their destination. Thats all it is >_< The "Magic Box" technique used in the muta vs thor example is simply moving your mutas over the thors before attacking them. This works because all of the mutas are in range of the thor when they are told to attack so they just stand ground and attack keeping their spread. If you just A-move, the mutas will go up to the thor until they are in range, and since all mutas obviously have the same range it causes them to stack and die to the thors splash.
On August 26 2010 12:46 R0YAL wrote: Tropics is right too btw. The Magic Box does not exist in SC2. Whats giving people the illusion that the mystical magic box is actually there is merely just the player spreading out his units and they retain their spread due to using the patrol command. Thats all it is, the magic box is taking credit from patrol >_< The "Magic Box" technique used in the muta vs thor example is simply moving your mutas over the thors before attacking them. This works because all of the mutas are in range of the thor when they are told to attack so they just stand ground and attack keeping their spread. If you just A-move, the mutas will go up to the thor until they are in range, and since all mutas obviously have the same range it causes them to stack and die to the thors splash.
Formation stays the same with "move" as opposed to attack move in certain numbers as well. It's in the OP. Patrolling is simply his method of putting his units into a formation. You can manually put them into a formation as well.
On August 26 2010 12:13 Tropics wrote: roarman, you have no idea what you are talking about
blizz didnt do any of that intentionally in brood war. brood war actually had magic boxes, and they were called that because they made units behave in special ways they normally wouldn't have. the ai was being broken, you think muta stacking which took 7 years to get discovered was intentional?
magic box is not in starcraft 2, not even slightly, and you do those things by simply patrolling or moving units. the only way you could possibly think magic box is in starcraft 2 is if you don't know what magic boxes were in brood war.
Sorry, I can't resist - what's your source? You must work for Blizzard or something, right; that's how you know all this.
because ive played starcraft for the past 4 years and anyone whos even remotely interested in the game will at some point have seen this stuff
where do you come up with this
"well how do u no blizz didnt invent muta stack???? IT ONLY TOOK 7 YEARS TO GET DISCOVERED, IT MUST HAVE BEEN INTENTIONAL"
Oh boy, 4 years. Gosu...
Wave your fucking e-peen elsewhere, dude. The same argument can be applied to what you're saying. OH IT MUST BE A "GLITCH IN THE AI" BECAUSE IT DOESN'T BEHAVE AS INTUITIVELY THINK IT SHOULD....get a fucking grip.
Are you capable of rationally debating without calling people idiots and cursing all the time, or can you just act like a 12-year-old halo rager?
^ That post, is made in mocking style of all your posts in this thread. Seriously...doesn't make you cool.
did you genuinely think me saying id been playing for 4 years was a brag
hahahaha ok now that we've established how insecure you are lets move on
ok, lets say ai is designed that way. (since apparently you think it was intentional for stacks of mutas to go around one shotting marines and workers, this isnt something im going to change) it still alters the way the game handles entirely, regardless of why it does. in sc2, no action does that. your units hold formation regardless.
pointing out stupidity is as rational as it gets, too. why should i respect an argument that is both inherently wrong and being presented in an utterly ridiculous fashion when if you actually put some thought into what you were saying you'd realize how ridiculous it is.
why do you think im angry because im being aggressive? its the internet, not real life. i am emotionally unphased, it seems like you're the one getting annoyed if anything BUT WAIT its the internet and i realize that sometimes the tone you put across in posts does not actually match your emotions right now because i am a rational human being
On August 26 2010 12:46 R0YAL wrote: Tropics is right too btw. The Magic Box does not exist in SC2. Whats giving people the illusion that the mystical magic box is actually there is merely just the player spreading out his units and they retain their spread due to using the patrol command. Thats all it is, the magic box is taking credit from patrol >_< The "Magic Box" technique used in the muta vs thor example is simply moving your mutas over the thors before attacking them. This works because all of the mutas are in range of the thor when they are told to attack so they just stand ground and attack keeping their spread. If you just A-move, the mutas will go up to the thor until they are in range, and since all mutas obviously have the same range it causes them to stack and die to the thors splash.
Formation stays the same with "move" as opposed to attack move in certain numbers as well. It's in the OP. Patrolling is simply his method of putting his units into a formation. You can manually put them into a formation as well.
The magic box exists.
Or move, whatever... The AI just takes the quickest path to its destination.
On August 26 2010 13:00 Tropics wrote: ok, lets say ai is designed that way. (since apparently you think it was intentional for stacks of mutas to go around one shotting marines and workers, this isnt something im going to change) it still alters the way the game handles entirely, regardless of why it does. in sc2, no action does that. your units hold formation regardless.
I was committed to stopping the derailment of this thread, but you're too wrong to not call you out. NO. THEY. DON'T. Watch the damn video. Are you really that stupid, ignorant, blind, stubborn... drunk?
Tropics the magic box is definitely in the game, just like brood war. It was never a glitch; it's intentional. It's the very mechanic Blizzard programmed into the game for units keeping formations. Muta stacking was of course an unintentional side effect of it, but that doesn't mean magic boxes are themselves glitches. Read about how the magic boxes work in brood war and then go test it for yourself in SC2; it's super easy to do! You'll find it works in exactly the same way.
Again, it's the very mechanism Blizzard used for unit formations (and spell-casting too in BW, but that's irrelevant in SC2 with smart-casting). Without magic boxes a group of units would always clump up into a very tight ball when doing any move command anywhere, which is usually not desirable. That's why magic boxes exist in the first place.
The only thing you're right about is attack move mutas clumping having nothing really to do with the magic box. That's just because the leading mutas stop when they are in range to fire, but the trailing mutas will keep going until they are also in range. Obviously this causes them to clump up. But you should still be aware of the magic box when issuing a move command with mutas, so you don't accidently clump them up in that way also. Like if you have too many mutas in a group, so their natural spread makes them bigger than the magic box. This will cause them to clump up. You should be aware of this.
everything you said there was true, but its not because of any special magic box knowledge. thats just how those units behave when you move them around, they keep formation. in bw it was a special sized box, with air units at least, move them anywhere on the map and they'll hold their formation.
On August 26 2010 13:29 Tropics wrote: everything you said there was true, but its not because of any special magic box knowledge. thats just how those units behave when you move them around.
What are you talking about? That's just how those units behave (or any units for that matter) BECAUSE of the magic boxes. Without the magic boxes they would behave differently (always clump). The units follow the game code. They obviously don't know how to keep formation unless they have been programmed to keep formation. That programmed mechanism is the magic box.
Go test it in SC2. Units will not hold formation if they are spread out too much (i.e. if they are spread out bigger than the magic box).
On August 26 2010 13:29 Tropics wrote: everything you said there was true, but its not because of any special magic box knowledge. thats just how those units behave when you move them around, they keep formation. in bw it was a special sized box, with air units at least, move them anywhere on the map and they'll hold their formation.
I think you're the one lacking understanding about magic boxes. Units in SC and SC2 only retain their formation if they're not spread larger than the magic box. So in BOTH games, a far ovie would make the mutas stack since they're spread too far apart. The only difference in SC2 is that once the mutas are stacked, it seems Blizzard made them start autospreading, which is good vs thors, bad vs everything else.
Hello new here, i was about to post somethign simlar to this - thought i was all clever and such. but there you go. i was exploring this to slove the emp zealot problem vid below if it adds anything to this. if not i'll go back into my corner. :s
On August 26 2010 13:37 dvide wrote: Go test it in SC2. Units will not hold formation if they are spread out too much
This is exactly the case, no matter what the term used to describe the phenomenon is.
It's not a semantic argument. He's saying there is no phenomenon at all, or at the very least that it is somehow entirely different to how it works in brood war. The guy who made the video above shows it off well. Note how the units either clump together or remain in formation, depending on where you click and how far they are spread out.
Is there really a limit of about 16-20? I know magic boxes have their limits for maintaining formations but I've always been under the impression that it's distance and area based rather than unit numbers. Can someone do some experimenting and see if it's numbers or formation size that breaks this "technique"?
On August 26 2010 14:05 Vokasak wrote: Is there really a limit of about 16-20? I know magic boxes have their limits for maintaining formations but I've always been under the impression that it's distance and area based rather than unit numbers. Can someone do some experimenting and see if it's numbers or formation size that breaks this "technique"?
I didn't FRAPS it, but I messed around with the Unit Matchup map thing earlier with all different sized groups of banelings. I think what it comes down to is that past 15-20 lings, you don't really gain much of a benefit from having them all inside the Magic Box (and thus, saving their formation), since they're going to be too close to each other. The patrol micro thing still spaces them out a bit regardless of the size of their group though, from what I tried.
Seems like if you have that many of them at once anyway that they'd be at separate parts of the maps regardless, IMO.
On August 26 2010 13:29 Tropics wrote: everything you said there was true, but its not because of any special magic box knowledge. thats just how those units behave when you move them around, they keep formation. in bw it was a special sized box, with air units at least, move them anywhere on the map and they'll hold their formation.
Calm down, dude. Believe or not, the fact that "thats just how those units behave", is because there are magic boxes in the game. This is really obvious to anyone who understands the term and is equivalent to BW, even though some "side effects" of magic boxes seemed to have been removed for SC2 (forced spread for stacked Mutas). The exact size and effects of these boxes should definately be explored for maximum usability. Even if, for some nostalgic reason, you only want to use it for BW, please accept that others want to refer to a general feature of an rts game engine and just move along.
What about not clustering big balls of banelings I think you need to give move command in much bigger distance, let's say in the corner on the map, so they won't cluster.
On August 26 2010 13:54 12th_milkshake wrote: Hello new here, i was about to post somethign simlar to this - thought i was all clever and such. but there you go. i was exploring this to slove the emp zealot problem vid below if it adds anything to this. if not i'll go back into my corner. :s
On August 26 2010 19:02 ktimekiller wrote: I think we can all agree that this thread degenerated into a retard fight with those who do not seem to understand the concept of the magic box
Must be nice to be given the authority to speak for thousands of people eh?
Oh wait no, you just gave your opinion and then added "I think we can all agree" before it to make it sound like it's something more than just that: your opinion.
As much as I enjoy learning about and using little tweaks like these to play better.. the names that keep being slapped on shit to make it sound more important are getting old. Just seeing someone say "tech-switch" makes me want to punch an infant.. and it probably won't be very long before it's the same way with "magic box" too.
Quick someone come up with a technical description for attack move so that can be thrown around in every post too.
On August 26 2010 13:54 12th_milkshake wrote: Hello new here, i was about to post somethign simlar to this - thought i was all clever and such. but there you go. i was exploring this to slove the emp zealot problem vid below if it adds anything to this. if not i'll go back into my corner. :s
It shows just how small the magic box is for ground units. I bet four ultras wouldn't be able to use it effectively.
Just did some testing The box is exactly 6 sensor towers wide and high for ground units, and 7 for air units. So anything that you can fit within a 6x6 sensor tower box, will keep formation as long as you click outside of the virtual rectangle formed by these units.
Unlike SC1, the units actually have to fit within the box, and not merely be selected by such a box. In SC2, if a unit is too far out, and part of it falls outside of the box, units will break formation.
Larva, buildings, sieged tanks, and so on, any unit that is incapable of executing a move command, will not work for the box in SC2, though a trapped unit does work.
mutas that are grouped together with a trapped unit stack significantly better than mutas alone, with a larva, or an overlord. each move command will then cause them to stack, although they unstack rather fast if ever left without command for a couple of seconds or if told to attack something, and not immediatly told to move afterward.
pretty ingenious... really hope more zergs use it... would help against pretty much everything... only issue is that you may not get that concentrated blast of acid all ofer t/p units at once. however does require more focusing from terran as they cant kill huge group with 1 siege tnak volley... and from protoss we would need to forcefield to cover a larger area, as well as colossus woudnt be as effective becaause they wouldnt be all bunched up
On August 26 2010 13:54 12th_milkshake wrote: Hello new here, i was about to post somethign simlar to this - thought i was all clever and such. but there you go. i was exploring this to slove the emp zealot problem vid below if it adds anything to this. if not i'll go back into my corner. :s
It shows just how small the magic box is for ground units. I bet four ultras wouldn't be able to use it effectively.
Just did some testing The box is exactly 6 sensor towers wide and high for ground units, and 7 for air units. So anything that you can fit within a 6x6 sensor tower box, will keep formation as long as you click outside of the virtual rectangle formed by these units.
Unlike SC1, the units actually have to fit within the box, and not merely be selected by such a box. In SC2, if a unit is too far out, and part of it falls outside of the box, units will break formation.
Larva, buildings, sieged tanks, and so on, any unit that is incapable of executing a move command, will not work for the box in SC2, though a trapped unit does work.
mutas that are grouped together with a trapped unit stack significantly better than mutas alone, with a larva, or an overlord. each move command will then cause them to stack, although they unstack rather fast if ever left without command for a couple of seconds or if told to attack something, and not immediatly told to move afterward.
Necrophile.
In all honesty, I never ever saw this trick used or heard from it, wonder why it hasn't gotten on, tank splash radius isn't that big and it doesn't do full damage in the entire aoe either, seems like a game-winning manoeuvre to me.
Well I tried to make a new thread about it, but the mods seemed to think it was better to dig up this one.
And hey, I dont think that its outdated information, or thats its become useless, or irrelevant. If anything, more people should know about it, and use it.
That small video demonstrates how much more effective it can be to spread them out.
I made that video before doing the research on the size of magic boxes though. Now I believe that the best way to micro banelings, or even zerglings, or marines, or whatever, groups of small units vs siege tanks, would be to first either spread them out manually, or through a patrol command, and then once that is done, to select several small groups, small enough to fit within the 6x6 box, and thus not to break formation, and send all of those small groups separately at the tanks, or wherever you want to send them.
This would be superior to patroling them, and then sending them in, because if you select a group too big for the magic box, then they will clump up at least slightly, even if you tell them to go to a location far behind where you want them to actually go. Where as if you were familiar enough with the exact size of a magic box, then you could easily select a group, tell it to go exactly where you want it to go (while remaining in spread out formation), and then do the same with the rest of your units.
I've thought about doing this myself while playing, and have made some small efforts to split up my banelings, but generally I didn't have enough APM to make it worthwhile.
One thing to consider is that if you spread out your banelings it stands to reason that their effectiveness against marines will become diminished. Sure, more banelings will survive against the tanks, but the remaining banelings will be spread out and be more likely to arrive at the marines one at a time, making them much easier for marines to focus down rather than one large ball arriving at the same time.
Well according to my testing (just running banelings into a bunch of marines repeatedly), spreading them out doesnt really lower their effectiveness by all that much. The main problem is when your banelings die before reaching the target. Against marines only, spreading them out does limit their potential, but only slightly. Against marines and tanks though, spreading them out greatly increses their effectiveness. Like litteraly, the number of banelings that die before reaching a target can go from 100% of them, to just 1 per tank. Making it really super effective to spread them out. Eachb tank shot kills on average 3-4 banelings, and severely hurts the others when they are clumped together. So if hes got like 3 tanks, and you have 15 banelings, its likely for 60% of your banelings to die before even getting within firing range of the marines if they clump. If you spread them out, then only 3 banelings would die, so then 80% of your banelings would reach firing range of the marines, instead of only 40%. In that scenario, spreading them out means twice the amount of banelings reach firing distance of the marines, so even though they are slightly less effective due to being spread out, its still a whole lot better.
Im wondering what the best way would be to train at the size of the SC2 magic box, to be able to instantly select a group of banelings the closest possible to the maximum size allowed by the magic box, and split them appart, from a group of randomly spread out banelings in motion.
Is anyone good at making maps with specific functions? Making a map with a ton of banelings rolling around on patrol, where you select a few and order them to move, and the map then tells you at what percentage of the maximum magic box size your box was, or if you went overboard, and then resets, that could really be a super helpful map to practice on, though Id imagine it would be quite a challenge for anyone trying to make it.
One other possible method, though way less than optimal, is just to give repeated move commands to a group. If its above the magic box size, it will begin to clump together on the first move command, and eventually, once it clumps enough to fit inside a magix box, then if you have been giving out constant move commands, the newest move command will over ride the old one, no longer be a move command to a group too big for the box, and then they will stop clumping.
Anyone from broodwar know how ppl back then trained to incorportate magic box size into their brain, for like blanket storms or whatever?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y205/Schmyesh/Screenshot2010-08-2516_35_54.jpg)
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"Boxuuuuuuuuuu!!"
