EPTtheres this thing called context. he obviously means that idra is 100% correct on the irrelevance of the gsl wins.
Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 723
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imbs
United Kingdom320 Posts
theres this thing called context. he obviously means that idra is 100% correct on the irrelevance of the gsl wins. | ||
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Stiver
Canada285 Posts
How so? The game is either balanced or not. Nothing in my post however was about game balance. IT was about the discussion of said balance. And in those discussions a lot of people bring up the GSL's that happened 9 months ago. If you want to bring up Zerg wins, talk about Assembly, NOT THE FIRST GSL. ~edit~ 6 months* | ||
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
On April 09 2011 01:46 imbs wrote: theres this thing called context. he obviously means that idra is 100% correct on the irrelevance of the gsl wins. Fair enough. There was the context of balance when discussing the GSL, but also that of bringing up the results as a statement towards balance... I looked at it in the wrong way. | ||
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HowSoOnIsNow
Canada480 Posts
On April 08 2011 23:42 rolfe wrote: i'm pretty sure huk said he has a hot girlfriend Nah that's Rainbow. But yeah, MarineKing is probably not gay. I do not also see the relevance,or that it would be a bad thing in any way. | ||
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flowSthead
1065 Posts
This is somewhat of a loaded question so I will unpack it a bit. There are two ways to approach this question: The first from the standpoint that the game is currently imbalanced, and the second that the game is balanced. Looking at it from the first standpoint, what specific changes need to be made to make the game more balanced? Is it a few minor changes, buffs to certain zerg units, nerfs to certain protoss units, or are you looking for larger changes? What happens if Zerg gets these changes and yet Zergs keep on losing? Is the game still imbalanced? The last two questions will make more sense when we view the original question from the standpoint of the game being relatively balanced. So again, What will it take for Zergs to not view the game as imbalanced? Is there a specific percentage of wins that Zergs need to have among pros? Do they have to win a certain number of tournaments? If Zergs make up 75% of the next GSL but a Protoss wins, is ZvP still imbalanced? What if the opposite were true? For me, this is not even an issue of comparing it to the time it took in BroodWar for builds to be found, but for the short time that statistical data has been around, assuming that one is using statistical data and not just "I feel that game is broken". In 9 months time, how many tournaments have there been and how many pro games, as opposed to in BroodWar? In 9 months time, how many of those match ups were changed because of patches? Has there really been a good say 6 month period of time where a person can objectively look at the data, without new patches, and say "look, Zergs are only winning 35% of the time against Protoss, the imbalance is clear". So again, what specific set of circumstances will convince a Zerg that the game is balanced? P.S. If you do not have an answer to this question, then you should not be whining about imbalance. Just saying that specific strategies do not work or feel weak against a Protoss is not a legitimate, logical answer. You are merely sidestepping the real issue. The issue here is what are the necessary characteristics of the game being balanced. If it is a 50% win/loss ratio, then I would argue that no Zerg player can make the statement that the game is or is not balanced when there was a patch less than a month ago. | ||
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Baz
United Kingdom289 Posts
Much Love. | ||
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LoCaD
Germany1634 Posts
InControl said Paypal is in the Works but only 6 Day to go makes me a little concerned. thats all | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On April 09 2011 02:26 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: Nah that's Rainbow. But yeah, MarineKing is probably not gay. I do not also see the relevance,or that it would be a bad thing in any way. The dude could very well be the most sensitive and emotional professional player I've ever seen, in any sport. I'm trying to think of another player in any sport that gets that gets that choked up with he wins or loses. Got nothing. | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 09 2011 02:50 flowSthead wrote: So I am addressing all Zergs and non-Zergs that believe there is an imbalance in the game with this question: What will it take for you to believe that there is not an imbalance? This is somewhat of a loaded question so I will unpack it a bit. There are two ways to approach this question: The first from the standpoint that the game is currently imbalanced, and the second that the game is balanced. Looking at it from the first standpoint, what specific changes need to be made to make the game more balanced? Is it a few minor changes, buffs to certain zerg units, nerfs to certain protoss units, or are you looking for larger changes? What happens if Zerg gets these changes and yet Zergs keep on losing? Is the game still imbalanced? The last two questions will make more sense when we view the original question from the standpoint of the game being relatively balanced. So again, What will it take for Zergs to not view the game as imbalanced? Is there a specific percentage of wins that Zergs need to have among pros? Do they have to win a certain number of tournaments? If Zergs make up 75% of the next GSL but a Protoss wins, is ZvP still imbalanced? What if the opposite were true? For me, this is not even an issue of comparing it to the time it took in BroodWar for builds to be found, but for the short time that statistical data has been around, assuming that one is using statistical data and not just "I feel that game is broken". In 9 months time, how many tournaments have there been and how many pro games, as opposed to in BroodWar? In 9 months time, how many of those match ups were changed because of patches? Has there really been a good say 6 month period of time where a person can objectively look at the data, without new patches, and say "look, Zergs are only winning 35% of the time against Protoss, the imbalance is clear". So again, what specific set of circumstances will convince a Zerg that the game is balanced? P.S. If you do not have an answer to this question, then you should not be whining about imbalance. Just saying that specific strategies do not work or feel weak against a Protoss is not a legitimate, logical answer. You are merely sidestepping the real issue. The issue here is what are the necessary characteristics of the game being balanced. If it is a 50% win/loss ratio, then I would argue that no Zerg player can make the statement that the game is or is not balanced when there was a patch less than a month ago. Put simply, I'll accept Zerg is not underpowered when Zerg starts preforming equally to the other races in tournaments. I don't think its a matter of skill. There's no reason players like Slush, Idra, Morrow, Sen, Ret, and Dimaga shouldn't be finding the same success as Terran and Protoss players, but theyre not. When we actually see Zerg representation at the highest level, and Zerg tournament wins are on par with Terran and Protoss wins I'll accept Zerg is fine. So far tournament results have basically been a Zerg scattered here and there among a sea of Protoss and Terran finding success. Keep in mind I'm talking about even results over time. Yes there are going to be stretches where a race finds something new and start winning for a while until players adapt (like the mech switch in BW TvZ recently) but ultimately things should be relatively even. Since the game came out all I've seen is the basic pattern of: 1. Protoss and Terran finding something that works better than what was previously common against Zerg 2. Zerg winrates drop sharply for a while. 3. Either Zerg figure out some way to not flat out die(ex. burrow timings against 6-gate) or Blizzard patches the problem (ex. roach range increase). 4. As a result, Zerg winrate goes up slightly, but never above 50%. 5. Protoss or Terran finds a new thing that works really well, and the cycle repeats. It's never been Zerg coming up with something and other races having to adapt. You can either pin this on Zerg being inherently shit and having bad tools to work with or just the reactive nature of the race. Either way, there's a clear discrepancy right now between Zerg win rates and success in high level tournaments and the other races. Right now, though, I feel (in ZvP at least) that the imbalance has gone beyond being some surprise unit composition or timing attack skewing statistics. Zerg just feels really weak in a normal game, and its units just dont seem to do as much as they need to be legitimate in a lategame situation. Like Idra said, the tools and potential are there but some of them just aren't strong enough atm. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 09 2011 03:26 LoCaD wrote: I hope when Geoff returns to the Show we can get a Confirmation on the NASL Paypal Payment Option 6 Days to go and I still can only pay with CC NASL will lose out on a lot of EU Viewers if they dont have Paypal ready. InControl said Paypal is in the Works but only 6 Day to go makes me a little concerned. thats all Justin.tv is at a company retreat in Hawaii and won't be back until launch of the season afaik. That said paypal should be up shortly after... Remember none of what I just said is any kind of official word but I felt you would benefit from hearing what I hear! There is a free stream of the NASL that is still really really good so check that out before paypal goes live! | ||
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HowSoOnIsNow
Canada480 Posts
On April 09 2011 03:56 Defacer wrote: The dude could very well be the most sensitive and emotional professional player I've ever seen, in any sport. I'm trying to think of another player in any sport that gets that gets that choked up with he wins or loses. Got nothing. C.Ronaldo. Cesc Fabregas, Diego Maradonna, Kaka, more than often a whole team fall to their knees when eliminated from the higher stages of the world cupjust to cry. Gyan broke down after missing the penalty during last year's world cup. As a matter of fact,it happens all the time in non american sports where showing emotions related to sadness isnt perceived as a non masculine quality. | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/1176_Sen No he hasn't. Not 1 actually. | ||
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Tschis
Brazil1511 Posts
On April 09 2011 02:26 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: Nah that's Rainbow. But yeah, MarineKing is probably not gay. I do not also see the relevance,or that it would be a bad thing in any way. I'm not sure if they are or not, and I wouldn't care anyways because they're so awesome that this doesn't even matter, but I think that MKP and Maka looked really gay on some matches I watched. I mean, maybe they're not, it's just that the way they act, move, etc. It 'looks' like they are. But like I said to my friend who was watching the game with me (it was Maka when his team was being all-killed in the GSTL): "Dude, he looks so gay, but that's gotta be the manliest gay ever!" xD //tx | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On April 09 2011 02:50 flowSthead wrote: + Show Spoiler + So I am addressing all Zergs and non-Zergs that believe there is an imbalance in the game with this question: What will it take for you to believe that there is not an imbalance? This is somewhat of a loaded question so I will unpack it a bit. There are two ways to approach this question: The first from the standpoint that the game is currently imbalanced, and the second that the game is balanced. Looking at it from the first standpoint, what specific changes need to be made to make the game more balanced? Is it a few minor changes, buffs to certain zerg units, nerfs to certain protoss units, or are you looking for larger changes? What happens if Zerg gets these changes and yet Zergs keep on losing? Is the game still imbalanced? The last two questions will make more sense when we view the original question from the standpoint of the game being relatively balanced. So again, What will it take for Zergs to not view the game as imbalanced? Is there a specific percentage of wins that Zergs need to have among pros? Do they have to win a certain number of tournaments? If Zergs make up 75% of the next GSL but a Protoss wins, is ZvP still imbalanced? What if the opposite were true? For me, this is not even an issue of comparing it to the time it took in BroodWar for builds to be found, but for the short time that statistical data has been around, assuming that one is using statistical data and not just "I feel that game is broken". In 9 months time, how many tournaments have there been and how many pro games, as opposed to in BroodWar? In 9 months time, how many of those match ups were changed because of patches? Has there really been a good say 6 month period of time where a person can objectively look at the data, without new patches, and say "look, Zergs are only winning 35% of the time against Protoss, the imbalance is clear". So again, what specific set of circumstances will convince a Zerg that the game is balanced? P.S. If you do not have an answer to this question, then you should not be whining about imbalance. Just saying that specific strategies do not work or feel weak against a Protoss is not a legitimate, logical answer. You are merely sidestepping the real issue. The issue here is what are the necessary characteristics of the game being balanced. If it is a 50% win/loss ratio, then I would argue that no Zerg player can make the statement that the game is or is not balanced when there was a patch less than a month ago. Once top level zergs stop losing to strategies and builds that a player in platinum leaguer could execute - the early game volatility of zerg is ridiculous. If zerg scouting was better, we could actually play reactively instead of having to prepare for everything (to some extent) or play a downright unsafe style - not having to prepare for everything means zergs are stronger going into the midgame and beyond. If you ask for a suggestion, mine is that overlords get 1 point of armour and then become biological only instead of "armoured" (seems contradictory but who cares) - that way they live longer against marines, stalkers and sentries and saccing an overlord might have a >25% chance of actually seeing something of use. I don't really want to comment on mid-lategame ZvP because we haven't fully seen how the recent infestor change has affected it, but that too might still need work. Possibly making Corruptors less useless after the colossi/air army dies, or making neural parasite better so that corruptors aren't necessary until Fleet Beacon. | ||
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Grantiere
United States129 Posts
On April 09 2011 04:17 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: C.Ronaldo. Cesc Fabregas, Diego Maradonna, Kaka, more than often a whole team fall to their knees when eliminated from the higher stages of the world cupjust to cry. Gyan broke down after missing the penalty during last year's world cup. As a matter of fact,it happens all the time in non american sports where showing emotions related to sadness isnt perceived as a non masculine quality. Also numerous high school athletes / competitive debaters, etc. Because that's the level of emotional maturity we're talking about here with a kid in his mid teens. Oh, and in the Miami Heat locker room after that one game they lost. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On April 09 2011 04:23 Grantiere wrote: Also numerous high school athletes / competitive debaters, etc. Because that's the level of emotional maturity we're talking about here with a kid in his mid teens. Oh, and in the Miami Heat locker room after that one game they lost. ...? So it takes emotional immaturity to cry when you fail at something you've devoted your life to? | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
No, crying doesn't make you gay. Posting that it does makes you an idiot, however. | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 09 2011 04:27 The KY wrote: Just btw, the 'zerg won 2 GSLs' thing was only brought up because Idra said zerg never wins anything. It wasn't exactly used as proof of a balanced game. Yes it was. Idra said Zerg sucks and day9 goes "well they won 2 GSLs". Idra's point was those results are so outdated you can't reference them for anything. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On April 09 2011 04:17 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: C.Ronaldo. Cesc Fabregas, Diego Maradonna, Kaka, more than often a whole team fall to their knees when eliminated from the higher stages of the world cupjust to cry. Gyan broke down after missing the penalty during last year's world cup. As a matter of fact,it happens all the time in non american sports where showing emotions related to sadness isnt perceived as a non masculine quality. Hmmm ... good examples. Part of MarineKing's emotiveness and body language may be cultural too. I'm not sure what Koreans are like, but in Hong Kong, men are a lot more comfortable being physically affectionate in a completely platonic way -- Like, wrapping your arm around your buddies shoulder on the bus, putting your hand on his knee, etc. It's the kind of body langauge that would interpreted as 'fey' or gay in most North American cities. And the Miami Heat cried because they ARE gay. Lol. | ||
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