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On June 29 2012 23:33 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:28 hifriend wrote:On June 29 2012 23:19 ohampatu wrote:
- haha wtf. you want to replace all of them? how about you just watch another show? Not replace them. Im saying stop making them the 'pillars' of our community. I dont care if the show continues as it is. I just wish the community would see it for what it is. These guys think they can act like this because we say they are the 'pillars'. Bull shit. Lets make people like Day9 and DJWheat pillars. Why must we follow this group? Its like the community thinks these guys need to be the 'face' of our scene.
They are only pillars of your community if you let them be pillars, as much as I love SOTG, we didn't vote them as representatives.
So they will still call themselves pillars, and other people will consider them pillars, even if you don't.
moreover, its just really a word game, "pillars" in the SOTG sense just means regular hosts.
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On June 29 2012 23:27 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:24 manloveman wrote:On June 29 2012 23:08 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:38 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 22:35 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:29 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:22 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:19 Elldar wrote:
So, you had to have QXC to say what Avilo was "trying" to say because he had made poor arguments and silly examples (which was so funny that they made JP laugh), when he started to derail everything from a debate he got cut off, what a surprise. How did avilo derail the debate? I agree his arguments weren't that solid, but i think the people telling him to "shut the fuck up" are the ones derailing the debate. No, people telling him shut the fuck up were just stating the fact. Avilo was like a student that decided to teach his teacher. It was irritating and stupid. He was clearly on the show for drama only and that is what we got. Only people complaining in here are either Avilo fanboys (good thing they didn't do this to Destiny :D) or the most hardcore whiners that moved over the that Terran whine topic that was closed recently. I had never even heard of Avilo before this show. And telling a person to shut the fuck up in a debate, no matter how bad one party is doing, is both bad mannered and immature. Also i play protoss, not terran. I have a problem with this kind of behaviour, nothing else. If you look at it as a debate from equals then that is true. And if Idra said to QXC at any point to shut the fuck up I would also be here holding a pitchfork or a torch but to Avilo?! Did you listen to him at all? As I said, it was like when a teacher who obviously knows much more then you tries to teach you something and you start acting like he knows shit and you should teach him what did you expect?! Has never in your schooling years a teacher told one of his students to Shut up? Idra being avilos teacher. Are you serious with that comparison? wth I don't know how long you have been following Sc2 but Idra has been a relevant player for a very long time. In addition to that he has been talking balance and tactics for as long and has almost always been right (and he admitted to being wrong when he did like when he called Nestea bad after Nestea 1st GSL win and admitted being wrong). Then him an QXC have a really good and smart talk about current state of TvZ. The Avilo comes in and shows kid like knowledge and understanding, ignores all that has been said prior to that. Yes, my comparison stands. Idra "has been" relevant. He has been bitching about balance right from the get go. Even when actual top zergs said that zvp was not unbalanced (or even that zerg was on top) he still whined and whined and whined about it. He is bad manered, he is actually not that good and cannot be objective in a balance discussion. Up until recently he was one of the most consistent players in MLG's and the like, repeatedly being the top foreigner or thereabouts, being the only one to take series off of monster koreans, and only recently has he actually dropped off and suddenly he's not good anymore. Maybe he's just not a total monster like he was a few months ago, but that is, as always, subject to change. Unlike, I feel the need to point out, Avilo who has always been way below par and even whined about terran when they were demonstrably overpowered.
A few months? Try going back to orlando. Thats pretty much 8-9 month ago. And yes avilo is also whiny and not objective, but why belittle him, when Idra is exactly the same.
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On June 29 2012 23:36 IshinShishi wrote:
QXC's discussion with Idra was decent, but not good enough, Idra has a golden boy personality("I am always right, stfu") and QXC is not the type of guy that is gonna call him out on that, so whatever discussion they can have is essentially limited, you could see that at several times when Idra threw some general statements with nothing to back them up, and while Qxc definetely had something in mind to say, he chose not to, it was somewhat subtle but you could see there was discomfort for him to be in that situation, it was kinda like arguing with a tribe leader surrounded by his people.
You expressed it in a way that I couldn't even if I tried really hard, and I share your opinion 100%.
Idra is a really good guest to have, but in my opinion he isn't a good regular addition to the show because of his personality and the close friendship between the hosts. It takes a lot away from discussions.
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On June 29 2012 23:36 stratmatt wrote:
idra and to a lil lessar extent, eg, are becoming such a downer on the NA sc2 scene. Their attitude towards everyone in their own community is garbage, just like their skills. I really wish more promising players with good attitudes had a more prominent spot in the scene but it seems like all the gatekeepers are such assholes and dont want to share the spotlight with anybody who hasnt 'made' it yet.
ps: you could literally hear the jealousy in all their voices when QXC was talking about the complexity house.....Lolol.
I second that. And this:
On June 29 2012 23:36 IshinShishi wrote:
QXC's discussion with Idra was decent, but not good enough, Idra has a golden boy personality("I am always right, stfu") and QXC is not the type of guy that is gonna call him out on that, so whatever discussion they can have is essentially limited, you could see that at several times when Idra threw some general statements with nothing to back them up, and while Qxc definetely had something in mind to say, he chose not to, it was somewhat subtle but you could see there was discomfort for him to be in that situation, it was kinda like arguing with a tribe leader surrounded by his people.
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It's their show. They can say and do whatever they want. If you don't like it, don't watch it.
Jesus - some of these arguments are ridiculous.
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On June 29 2012 23:27 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:24 manloveman wrote:On June 29 2012 23:08 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:38 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 22:35 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:29 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:22 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:19 Elldar wrote:
So, you had to have QXC to say what Avilo was "trying" to say because he had made poor arguments and silly examples (which was so funny that they made JP laugh), when he started to derail everything from a debate he got cut off, what a surprise. How did avilo derail the debate? I agree his arguments weren't that solid, but i think the people telling him to "shut the fuck up" are the ones derailing the debate. No, people telling him shut the fuck up were just stating the fact. Avilo was like a student that decided to teach his teacher. It was irritating and stupid. He was clearly on the show for drama only and that is what we got. Only people complaining in here are either Avilo fanboys (good thing they didn't do this to Destiny :D) or the most hardcore whiners that moved over the that Terran whine topic that was closed recently. I had never even heard of Avilo before this show. And telling a person to shut the fuck up in a debate, no matter how bad one party is doing, is both bad mannered and immature. Also i play protoss, not terran. I have a problem with this kind of behaviour, nothing else. If you look at it as a debate from equals then that is true. And if Idra said to QXC at any point to shut the fuck up I would also be here holding a pitchfork or a torch but to Avilo?! Did you listen to him at all? As I said, it was like when a teacher who obviously knows much more then you tries to teach you something and you start acting like he knows shit and you should teach him what did you expect?! Has never in your schooling years a teacher told one of his students to Shut up? Idra being avilos teacher. Are you serious with that comparison? wth I don't know how long you have been following Sc2 but Idra has been a relevant player for a very long time. In addition to that he has been talking balance and tactics for as long and has almost always been right (and he admitted to being wrong when he did like when he called Nestea bad after Nestea 1st GSL win and admitted being wrong). Then him an QXC have a really good and smart talk about current state of TvZ. The Avilo comes in and shows kid like knowledge and understanding, ignores all that has been said prior to that. Yes, my comparison stands. Idra "has been" relevant. He has been bitching about balance right from the get go. Even when actual top zergs said that zvp was not unbalanced (or even that zerg was on top) he still whined and whined and whined about it. He is bad manered, he is actually not that good and cannot be objective in a balance discussion. Up until recently he was one of the most consistent players in MLG's and the like, repeatedly being the top foreigner or thereabouts, being the only one to take series off of monster koreans, and only recently has he actually dropped off and suddenly he's not good anymore. Maybe he's just not a total monster like he was a few months ago, but that is, as always, subject to change. Unlike, I feel the need to point out, Avilo who has always been way below par and even whined about terran when they were demonstrably overpowered.
Few months ago try 7 months!
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On June 29 2012 23:23 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:14 Barleyarley wrote:
I used to quite like SOTG, but I've lost my appetite for it after watching the TvZ episode. Three of the main staples of the show (Idra, InControl and JP) acquitted themselves terribly and made me seriously question how people like that can become so influential in the community.
I didn't know anything about Avilo before watching this episode but, from the basis of this podcast, he really didn't do anything to deserve the abuse that he received. As soon as he entered the chat it was pretty clear from viewing it that it was going to be a hostile environment, and he was perfectly within his rights to try and address InControl's issues with him. InControl was either too cowardly or too arrogant to give a response though.
QXC is clearly quite articulate and did well to not get dragged into the mess at the end of the show, but I felt like Avilo did a much better job in being concise with his argument. He became more aggressive as the conversation went on, but it was quite clear that none of them where willing to hear out his points anyway and were more interested in trying to bait him into a reaction. Imagine how frustrating it must be to enter a podcast to discuss something you feel you have something to say about, and just have people belittle you and completely ignore what you came to say anyway.
If these 3 guys think that it is acceptable to belittle less-known members of the community and completely write off their opinions because they don't get a pay cheque from being involved in what they love, then I suppose they should continue acting as they did in this podcast. But maybe they should try to be more aware that it is the same community, that is involved in eSports for the love of it that puts them on that pedestal. That provides the audience that allows them to make a living from eSports. That ultimately allows them to live a lifestyle that most gamers would dream off.
All 3 of them are only in the position that they are today because of the grace of the community. JP is not a good caster and not exactly an enigmatic character, he was just in the right place at the right time. inControl and Idra are both still riding off their earlier successes and neither look like ever really being relevant on the wider competitive scene again. This grace will wane eventually, and it will fade a whole lot faster if they continue to conduct themselves in the manner that they did on this podcast.
But of course, I don't wear a team jersey, so my opinion is probably pretty irrelevant.
PS. Idra calling MKP terrible was a particular highlight for me, they ego on that guy (just a shame he has nothing to back it up with)... The problem with Avilo's points were they they were exaggerated and all over the place, jumping from one point to another (Talking about Zerg getting up to "80" drones, which Idra said you can just get 3CC and macro greedily, then Avilo said the Zerg can just all-in you, which are two completely different scenarios). While QXC was timid with his perspective he presented it much better.
I don't want to go into this too much, because it sort of detracts from what the point of my post was. But those 2 points Avilo made are totally related. It is just saying that Idra's suggestion to 'build 3 CC's' isn't really an appropriate answer to the issue that Terran are having, because it is hugely risky and can be instantly punished with ease if scouted. Zergs just have to fore go one or two rounds of drones to potentially end the game then and there. Not to mention just allow the Zerg to spread creep and expand.
Like I said though, I don't really want to discuss balance as I don't imagine any of us are really qualified to properly have it out!
Also, '80 drones' is obviously just and exaggeration to empahsis his point, you shouldn't take things like this at face value.
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On June 29 2012 23:43 Prox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:36 stratmatt wrote:
idra and to a lil lessar extent, eg, are becoming such a downer on the NA sc2 scene. Their attitude towards everyone in their own community is garbage, just like their skills. I really wish more promising players with good attitudes had a more prominent spot in the scene but it seems like all the gatekeepers are such assholes and dont want to share the spotlight with anybody who hasnt 'made' it yet.
ps: you could literally hear the jealousy in all their voices when QXC was talking about the complexity house.....Lolol. I second that. And this: Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:36 IshinShishi wrote:
QXC's discussion with Idra was decent, but not good enough, Idra has a golden boy personality("I am always right, stfu") and QXC is not the type of guy that is gonna call him out on that, so whatever discussion they can have is essentially limited, you could see that at several times when Idra threw some general statements with nothing to back them up, and while Qxc definetely had something in mind to say, he chose not to, it was somewhat subtle but you could see there was discomfort for him to be in that situation, it was kinda like arguing with a tribe leader surrounded by his people.
It good to see from both perspective. W/e they argued, it comes down to....CAN you do damage in the mid game with this queen buff? CAN you play greedy against zerg?
This is such a stupid arguement because it hard to prove. Similar to the TvP arguement where, can terran really do damage in the early/mid game to secure a good position for the late game.
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On June 29 2012 23:24 manloveman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:08 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:38 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 22:35 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:29 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:22 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:19 Elldar wrote:
So, you had to have QXC to say what Avilo was "trying" to say because he had made poor arguments and silly examples (which was so funny that they made JP laugh), when he started to derail everything from a debate he got cut off, what a surprise. How did avilo derail the debate? I agree his arguments weren't that solid, but i think the people telling him to "shut the fuck up" are the ones derailing the debate. No, people telling him shut the fuck up were just stating the fact. Avilo was like a student that decided to teach his teacher. It was irritating and stupid. He was clearly on the show for drama only and that is what we got. Only people complaining in here are either Avilo fanboys (good thing they didn't do this to Destiny :D) or the most hardcore whiners that moved over the that Terran whine topic that was closed recently. I had never even heard of Avilo before this show. And telling a person to shut the fuck up in a debate, no matter how bad one party is doing, is both bad mannered and immature. Also i play protoss, not terran. I have a problem with this kind of behaviour, nothing else. If you look at it as a debate from equals then that is true. And if Idra said to QXC at any point to shut the fuck up I would also be here holding a pitchfork or a torch but to Avilo?! Did you listen to him at all? As I said, it was like when a teacher who obviously knows much more then you tries to teach you something and you start acting like he knows shit and you should teach him what did you expect?! Has never in your schooling years a teacher told one of his students to Shut up? Idra being avilos teacher. Are you serious with that comparison? wth I don't know how long you have been following Sc2 but Idra has been a relevant player for a very long time. In addition to that he has been talking balance and tactics for as long and has almost always been right (and he admitted to being wrong when he did like when he called Nestea bad after Nestea 1st GSL win and admitted being wrong). Then him an QXC have a really good and smart talk about current state of TvZ. The Avilo comes in and shows kid like knowledge and understanding, ignores all that has been said prior to that. Yes, my comparison stands. Idra "has been" relevant. He has been bitching about balance right from the get go. Even when actual top zergs said that zvp was not unbalanced (or even that zerg was on top) he still whined and whined and whined about it. He is bad manered, he is actually not that good and cannot be objective in a balance discussion.
Whatever you think Idra is or is not, the fact is he is still a teacher when compared to a kid like Avilo. What has Avilo ever accomplished in life and progaming so he can ignore what Idra said, cut him off midsentence and make fun of him with that whole "I agree with you that Terran cannot win"?
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On June 29 2012 23:43 hwatti wrote:
It's their show. They can say and do whatever they want. If you don't like it, don't watch it.
Jesus - some of these arguments are ridiculous.
While this is true, the show is nothing without the viewers, so you can't just give them the proverbial middle finger.
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great show last night, keep it up!
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On June 29 2012 23:48 Barleyarley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:23 HeroMystic wrote:On June 29 2012 23:14 Barleyarley wrote:
I used to quite like SOTG, but I've lost my appetite for it after watching the TvZ episode. Three of the main staples of the show (Idra, InControl and JP) acquitted themselves terribly and made me seriously question how people like that can become so influential in the community.
I didn't know anything about Avilo before watching this episode but, from the basis of this podcast, he really didn't do anything to deserve the abuse that he received. As soon as he entered the chat it was pretty clear from viewing it that it was going to be a hostile environment, and he was perfectly within his rights to try and address InControl's issues with him. InControl was either too cowardly or too arrogant to give a response though.
QXC is clearly quite articulate and did well to not get dragged into the mess at the end of the show, but I felt like Avilo did a much better job in being concise with his argument. He became more aggressive as the conversation went on, but it was quite clear that none of them where willing to hear out his points anyway and were more interested in trying to bait him into a reaction. Imagine how frustrating it must be to enter a podcast to discuss something you feel you have something to say about, and just have people belittle you and completely ignore what you came to say anyway.
If these 3 guys think that it is acceptable to belittle less-known members of the community and completely write off their opinions because they don't get a pay cheque from being involved in what they love, then I suppose they should continue acting as they did in this podcast. But maybe they should try to be more aware that it is the same community, that is involved in eSports for the love of it that puts them on that pedestal. That provides the audience that allows them to make a living from eSports. That ultimately allows them to live a lifestyle that most gamers would dream off.
All 3 of them are only in the position that they are today because of the grace of the community. JP is not a good caster and not exactly an enigmatic character, he was just in the right place at the right time. inControl and Idra are both still riding off their earlier successes and neither look like ever really being relevant on the wider competitive scene again. This grace will wane eventually, and it will fade a whole lot faster if they continue to conduct themselves in the manner that they did on this podcast.
But of course, I don't wear a team jersey, so my opinion is probably pretty irrelevant.
PS. Idra calling MKP terrible was a particular highlight for me, they ego on that guy (just a shame he has nothing to back it up with)... The problem with Avilo's points were they they were exaggerated and all over the place, jumping from one point to another (Talking about Zerg getting up to "80" drones, which Idra said you can just get 3CC and macro greedily, then Avilo said the Zerg can just all-in you, which are two completely different scenarios). While QXC was timid with his perspective he presented it much better. I don't want to go into this too much, because it sort of detracts from what the point of my post was. But those 2 points Avilo made are totally related. It is just saying that Idra's suggestion to 'build 3 CC's' isn't really an appropriate answer to the issue that Terran are having, because it is hugely risky and can be instantly punished with ease if scouted. Zergs just have to fore go one or two rounds of drones to potentially end the game then and there. Not to mention just allow the Zerg to spread creep and expand. Like I said though, I don't really want to discuss balance as I don't imagine any of us are really qualified to properly have it out! Also, '80 drones' is obviously just and exaggeration to empahsis his point, you shouldn't take things like this at face value.
I have seen thorzain using a build recently where he 1 rax fe's and stop scv production at 16, makes 3 marines, then throws down 4 more rax when he is at 19/19. After the cc and the raxes finish, he resumes marine/scv production and throws down his second supply depot. I use this build a lot now against terran and protoss because I like the fact that he cuts scvs for a couple min in order to get his production up to snuff and can also be sued to punish greedy play witht heability to pump 5 marines at a time so suddenly. It got me thinking....since zerg is taking fast 3rd and delaying tech....couldnt terran also take a fast 3rd and cut scv production for a little to get the extra rax up needed to defend busts? Its not like we arnt going to have triple mulees to keep us on pace.... Im low master terran and have been on break from 1v1 for a month or so but maybe somebody else might have an idea, but I really like the mindset behind thorzains build. its 'greedy' but not as greedy as as a standard 1 rax fe as you get TONS of production really quickly.
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On June 29 2012 23:49 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:24 manloveman wrote:On June 29 2012 23:08 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:38 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 22:35 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:29 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:22 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:19 Elldar wrote:
So, you had to have QXC to say what Avilo was "trying" to say because he had made poor arguments and silly examples (which was so funny that they made JP laugh), when he started to derail everything from a debate he got cut off, what a surprise. How did avilo derail the debate? I agree his arguments weren't that solid, but i think the people telling him to "shut the fuck up" are the ones derailing the debate. No, people telling him shut the fuck up were just stating the fact. Avilo was like a student that decided to teach his teacher. It was irritating and stupid. He was clearly on the show for drama only and that is what we got. Only people complaining in here are either Avilo fanboys (good thing they didn't do this to Destiny :D) or the most hardcore whiners that moved over the that Terran whine topic that was closed recently. I had never even heard of Avilo before this show. And telling a person to shut the fuck up in a debate, no matter how bad one party is doing, is both bad mannered and immature. Also i play protoss, not terran. I have a problem with this kind of behaviour, nothing else. If you look at it as a debate from equals then that is true. And if Idra said to QXC at any point to shut the fuck up I would also be here holding a pitchfork or a torch but to Avilo?! Did you listen to him at all? As I said, it was like when a teacher who obviously knows much more then you tries to teach you something and you start acting like he knows shit and you should teach him what did you expect?! Has never in your schooling years a teacher told one of his students to Shut up? Idra being avilos teacher. Are you serious with that comparison? wth I don't know how long you have been following Sc2 but Idra has been a relevant player for a very long time. In addition to that he has been talking balance and tactics for as long and has almost always been right (and he admitted to being wrong when he did like when he called Nestea bad after Nestea 1st GSL win and admitted being wrong). Then him an QXC have a really good and smart talk about current state of TvZ. The Avilo comes in and shows kid like knowledge and understanding, ignores all that has been said prior to that. Yes, my comparison stands. Idra "has been" relevant. He has been bitching about balance right from the get go. Even when actual top zergs said that zvp was not unbalanced (or even that zerg was on top) he still whined and whined and whined about it. He is bad manered, he is actually not that good and cannot be objective in a balance discussion. Whatever you think Idra is or is not, the fact is he is still a teacher when compared to a kid like Avilo. What has Avilo ever accomplished in life and progaming so he can ignore what Idra said, cut him off midsentence and make fun of him with that whole "I agree with you that Terran cannot win"?
Meanwhile, Idra on MKP: "Does not know how to play the game, and does random shit.". Sometimes, I wonder what would happen if someone informed MKP of this, and if he'd respond in some amusingly derogatory way. That could make for good drama, maybe JP should look into it.
On the other hand, given what Naniwa's fairly innocent comment ended up escalating into, maybe that wouldn't be very good for MKP. I'm sure idra could find some dirty laundry about him to air in interviews.
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On June 29 2012 23:57 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:49 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 23:24 manloveman wrote:On June 29 2012 23:08 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:38 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 22:35 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:29 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:22 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:19 Elldar wrote:
So, you had to have QXC to say what Avilo was "trying" to say because he had made poor arguments and silly examples (which was so funny that they made JP laugh), when he started to derail everything from a debate he got cut off, what a surprise. How did avilo derail the debate? I agree his arguments weren't that solid, but i think the people telling him to "shut the fuck up" are the ones derailing the debate. No, people telling him shut the fuck up were just stating the fact. Avilo was like a student that decided to teach his teacher. It was irritating and stupid. He was clearly on the show for drama only and that is what we got. Only people complaining in here are either Avilo fanboys (good thing they didn't do this to Destiny :D) or the most hardcore whiners that moved over the that Terran whine topic that was closed recently. I had never even heard of Avilo before this show. And telling a person to shut the fuck up in a debate, no matter how bad one party is doing, is both bad mannered and immature. Also i play protoss, not terran. I have a problem with this kind of behaviour, nothing else. If you look at it as a debate from equals then that is true. And if Idra said to QXC at any point to shut the fuck up I would also be here holding a pitchfork or a torch but to Avilo?! Did you listen to him at all? As I said, it was like when a teacher who obviously knows much more then you tries to teach you something and you start acting like he knows shit and you should teach him what did you expect?! Has never in your schooling years a teacher told one of his students to Shut up? Idra being avilos teacher. Are you serious with that comparison? wth I don't know how long you have been following Sc2 but Idra has been a relevant player for a very long time. In addition to that he has been talking balance and tactics for as long and has almost always been right (and he admitted to being wrong when he did like when he called Nestea bad after Nestea 1st GSL win and admitted being wrong). Then him an QXC have a really good and smart talk about current state of TvZ. The Avilo comes in and shows kid like knowledge and understanding, ignores all that has been said prior to that. Yes, my comparison stands. Idra "has been" relevant. He has been bitching about balance right from the get go. Even when actual top zergs said that zvp was not unbalanced (or even that zerg was on top) he still whined and whined and whined about it. He is bad manered, he is actually not that good and cannot be objective in a balance discussion. Whatever you think Idra is or is not, the fact is he is still a teacher when compared to a kid like Avilo. What has Avilo ever accomplished in life and progaming so he can ignore what Idra said, cut him off midsentence and make fun of him with that whole "I agree with you that Terran cannot win"? Meanwhile, Idra on MKP: "Does not know how to play the game, and does random shit.". Sometimes, I wonder what would happen if someone informed MKP of this, and if he'd respond in some amusingly derogatory way. That could make for good drama, maybe JP should look into it. On the other hand, given what Naniwa's fairly innocent comment ended up escalating into, maybe that wouldn't be very good for MKP. I'm sure idra could find some dirty laundry about him to air in interviews.
Idra said this many months ago. And now he randomly uses it as a 'joke'. Just like HuK and top 3 control. Idra doesn't think MKP is bad anymore. Although he used to. (and im an idra hater, just read my last 3 posts)
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On June 29 2012 23:57 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:49 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 23:24 manloveman wrote:On June 29 2012 23:08 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:38 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 22:35 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:29 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:22 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:19 Elldar wrote:
So, you had to have QXC to say what Avilo was "trying" to say because he had made poor arguments and silly examples (which was so funny that they made JP laugh), when he started to derail everything from a debate he got cut off, what a surprise. How did avilo derail the debate? I agree his arguments weren't that solid, but i think the people telling him to "shut the fuck up" are the ones derailing the debate. No, people telling him shut the fuck up were just stating the fact. Avilo was like a student that decided to teach his teacher. It was irritating and stupid. He was clearly on the show for drama only and that is what we got. Only people complaining in here are either Avilo fanboys (good thing they didn't do this to Destiny :D) or the most hardcore whiners that moved over the that Terran whine topic that was closed recently. I had never even heard of Avilo before this show. And telling a person to shut the fuck up in a debate, no matter how bad one party is doing, is both bad mannered and immature. Also i play protoss, not terran. I have a problem with this kind of behaviour, nothing else. If you look at it as a debate from equals then that is true. And if Idra said to QXC at any point to shut the fuck up I would also be here holding a pitchfork or a torch but to Avilo?! Did you listen to him at all? As I said, it was like when a teacher who obviously knows much more then you tries to teach you something and you start acting like he knows shit and you should teach him what did you expect?! Has never in your schooling years a teacher told one of his students to Shut up? Idra being avilos teacher. Are you serious with that comparison? wth I don't know how long you have been following Sc2 but Idra has been a relevant player for a very long time. In addition to that he has been talking balance and tactics for as long and has almost always been right (and he admitted to being wrong when he did like when he called Nestea bad after Nestea 1st GSL win and admitted being wrong). Then him an QXC have a really good and smart talk about current state of TvZ. The Avilo comes in and shows kid like knowledge and understanding, ignores all that has been said prior to that. Yes, my comparison stands. Idra "has been" relevant. He has been bitching about balance right from the get go. Even when actual top zergs said that zvp was not unbalanced (or even that zerg was on top) he still whined and whined and whined about it. He is bad manered, he is actually not that good and cannot be objective in a balance discussion. Whatever you think Idra is or is not, the fact is he is still a teacher when compared to a kid like Avilo. What has Avilo ever accomplished in life and progaming so he can ignore what Idra said, cut him off midsentence and make fun of him with that whole "I agree with you that Terran cannot win"? Meanwhile, Idra on MKP: "Does not know how to play the game, and does random shit.". Sometimes, I wonder what would happen if someone informed MKP of this, and if he'd respond in some amusingly derogatory way. That could make for good drama, maybe JP should look into it. On the other hand, given what Naniwa's fairly innocent comment ended up escalating into, maybe that wouldn't be very good for MKP. I'm sure idra could find some dirty laundry about him to air in interviews.
Isnt it funny that someone like mkp can do random shit and still shit on the worlds best sc2 players? Makes you wonder what idra is doing then lol
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A bit off-topic, but I read that over 16% of children in American schools have 'recently' been systematically bullied(link). I find it so strange, I've had my share of disagreements with people at school and I was never popular, but I've never been systematically bullied even though I'm probably as good a target as any. I also don't know of any bullying that went on in our school, none of my family and friends have any experience with it that I know of.
Yet in this thread it appears that every second post is about "typical high school bullying where the popular kids invite a victim to mock him" and also in the silly circumcision thread in the general forums people state that they will circumcise their kids in order to prevent bullying. Is this something I just missed? Is bullying really so widespread that everyone can reasonably be expected to have a good enough feel for it that they can just call something like what happened to Avilo "typical bullying behavior"?
From my perspective, Avilo was given a chance to express himself and he squandered it by being passive-aggressive, whiny and incoherent. Some of the hosts were nervously giggling at how much of a trainwreck this was and Idra has no filter (apparently), but how come that makes this bullying? These people are all adults and Avilo is a guest on their show, yet did not behave as a guest ought to. (imo) It's the regulars' right to kick Avilo off the show the moment they feel uncomfortable with his presence.
Probably JP should have said something along the lines of 'okay Avilo, your time is up, you have 30 seconds for a final statement, thanks for coming on' and he should have more actively moderated the moment Idra started the namecalling, but that's just an example of improper showhosting, it's a stretch to call it bullying (even offense, maybe) and it seems to me it's more like 'the community'(I know..) first tried to get Avilo on to cause drama and now that they had their wish they try to turn this into a big deal: 'popular kids bullying defenseless Avilo!' just in order to instigate the situation even more.
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On June 29 2012 22:42 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 21:53 OrbitalPlane wrote:
I just watched the video of STOG. Wth was that avilo situation.
I don't know him and since i am toss i don't have a strong opinion on the TvZ match up. And i have no idea if his opinion on TvZ makes any sense. But THIS is no way to treat a guest on the show. First Idra instults him very badly and then (JP?) drops him from the show without any word about it. i mean WTH did i just watch.
If avilo is kind of a flamer/annoying person or what ever then don't get him on the show.
But please treat your guests with respect. I think everyone on the show except qxc should apologize for this incident.
While I agree that the pillars of the SOTG did very poorly when Avilo popped up, I'd like to say that the previous episode was much worse than this one, and by much worse I mean the worst episode I've watched in awhile. I pretty much stopped watching when Incontrol told the Terran audience (who complained that there was no Terran representative in a TvZ discussion) to basically go kill themselves and everyone else laughed at that. If there was anything that was unprofessional it was that episode. That said, this is not a professional talk show. It's just a show with noteworthy people talking about stuff relevant to the scene. While QXC and Idra made a hefty discussion about TvZ strategy, they did so on their own accord and not because they're being paid for it. In no way should we as the audience be dissatisfied with their discussion as it wasn't an analysis or anything of the sort, and it being a debate was kind of a joke. Avilo popping up was going to be a disaster from the get-go, and they shouldn't have pulled him up. Obviously Idra didn't want to deal with it and he made his point very clear on this thread recently, and InControl was practically begging for shit to go down, especially since he (and somewhat JP) has been making constant jabs at him for quite awhile. If there's anything I'm disappointed about in this episode and before it's the lack of respect, not just for players but for people in general. It seems like as more time goes by the show is becoming more like the Jock table in High School to show that they're better than everyone else. Obviously this doesn't apply to Nony nor any of the guests (Idra/QXC), which is funny because that's three out of the five I'm excluding. While JP handled the Avilo situation very poorly, I'd shift most of the issue to INcontrol for being out of control with his trolling. He's a great host and I like him most of the time (I even watch his stream despite being a Terran player), but his behavior has been pretty unacceptable for the past few episodes.
(btw i think this episode was really good besides this incident. The discussion between idra and qxc was very insightful even for me as a protoss player!)
I don't think the situation in the previous episode was worse. Even so i don't remember it clearly i am pretty sure Incontrol said it in a joking way. Like you said it's not an official council that decides about the future of sc2. They don't have to have a terran on their show. If they want to talk about the terran perspective without a terran on the show that's their choice. Treating ppl like shit however is a whole different story.
This is very true: "If there's anything, I'm disappointed about in this episode and before it's the lack of respect, not just for players but for people in general"
But i don't understand why you think it doesn't apply to idra.
I think his reaction to avilo was unacceptable. Even if someone makes stupid arguments this is no way to respond. In my opinion there are 2 possible ways to answer:
First one is say "yeah sure" (in an ironic way) and end the discussion bc with some ppl you can't argue. (They don't even consider rational arguments )
Or if you think your opponent is open to rational arguments you tell him in a polite way why you think differently.
But to tell someone to stfu or to attack him personally that's just something you would expect from a immature 12 year old kid you just stole his toys from.
Edit: i just watched the "apology" from JP and incontrol at the end. At least they realized that they crossed a line there. Though the apology did sound lame and i am not sure if they really felt sorry.
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I liked the QXC-Idra conversation (I wouldn't call it a discussion, as there wasn't really much arguing) as it represented things well and was more like brainstorming what could be done by terrans.
A few points that I missed from the QXC-Idra conversatoin to make it a real debate:
1) Zerg greed is a stronger option than terran greed. Play a 12min no rush game TvZ and I'm pretty sure that Zergs would win this most of the time. I suspect that there isn't a Terran build that keeps up in economy without dieing to minimal pressure.
QXC himself stated, that he did an extremely greedy build (3 CC with 1 marine) and got through with it and wasn't ahead.
2) The current Zerg greed builds are safer than the current Terran greed builds. Due to the fact that through the larva mechanic, Zergs can pull out of the greed much quicker. The time between scouting and being able to react is shorter for Zergs than for terran. In addition, the Zergs in the current meta are able to have a better picture (especially with good OL spots on some maps) what the Terran is doing than the other way round.
I would have liked to focus more on these points, as there could have been more of a debate, but well.. I guess that's what they brought avilo on for. Which brings me to the sad parts.
First sad part:
Avilo accepting the 'invitation' to appear on the show. This shows either lack of pride or that this issue is really fucking important to him. He got made fun off in the beginning (which was OKish, as he is a vocal proponent of 'that shit's is imbalanced'). Then after the QXC-Idra segment was done, he was belittled some more prior to his call. No wonder he was already defensive when he came on the show. He tried to make a good impression by NOT responding in kind - that commands respect - but in the end he failed when he tried to talk over Idra.
Second sad part:
How low is it to bring someone into the show just to set him up for ridicule? Many have talked of bullying. I feel the same. There are many people who are annoyed by avilo's prior whining. Then again, you can easily replace 'avilo' with 'Idra' and 'terran' with 'zerg' in most posts criticizing him and find the same post in some other part of this very forum. Avilo is the terran Idra minus the BW/beta past. While it's part of the act for Idra and people hail him because he 'speaks his mind no fluff' people hate on him because he does the same.
Third sad part (this is more subjective):
The pocket abacus. This was funny the first time, MAYBE the second time. It gets old - fast. It seemed to me (and I only listened to the audio) that it was incontrol's craving for attention as the show didn't revolve around him much this time.
Plus in a community that is as nerdy and geeky as the gaming community, it's just not cool to do the "math too hard, but I can count with abacus" act.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
Idra has double standards for everything. He will bluntly say to someone"I am not talking to you because you are trash at starcraft!" - and then be friend and kindly discuss something starcraft wise with iNcontrol even though by all of his standards Incontrol is nobody when it comes to actually play the game of starcraft and thus don't know what he is talking about. Although he constantly avoid to show emotion everybody can see how insecure and full of shit he is behind the serious act he tries to present. Idra, just chill the fuck out. You will be a better person and a better player. Right now you are horrible on both departments. Avilo whines all the time, but that's part of his weird character i don't actually take seriously when he says how protoss is broken, he is also very funny guy with really special style of play - but to threat him like they did - it's just wrong and childish.
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Great show! Loved the discussion between QXC and Idra. The Avilo section was pretty pointless, as he seems to be rather clueless (he mostly just rambled about "the vikings and ravens and what QXC said earlier", adding nothing new to the discussion), but wasn't too bad. Wish you hadn't just cut him off, but he shouldn't have been on the show in the first place.
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EPT
