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On June 29 2012 23:03 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 22:57 hifriend wrote:On June 29 2012 22:41 Glurkenspurk wrote:
You guys are idiots. It's a few people arguing over a video game. Not some kid being bullied to death in school, or any form of life and death situation. Get over it.
Idra is allowed to criticize any person he wants.
JP is allowed to invite anyone on his show that he wants.
Stop arguing and crying. criticize? lol this is about common courtesy and being polite to a guest you invited on the show. That entire segment was unwatchable for me, so embarrassing. Idra is such a kid, I don't understand how he can talk to people like that entirely unprovoked and not be ashamed of himself. I enjoyed listening to qxc, though. No, avilo was basically begging and bitching to be on the show. So JP either has to be called a pussy for not bringing him on or giving him a shot. Hardly a guest you invite on like Husky or qxc, more like having no choice.
Well I disagree. Either you don't bring him on, which is completely fine and entirely up to jp, or you do bring him on for whatever reason. However if you do bring him on, you should at the very least treat him with respect unless he's being a total douche or something.
Wtf is the point of even bringing a person on if you're just going to berate him for having a different opinion and then cut him off in the middle of a sentence? To me that seems like the worst possible option.
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On June 29 2012 20:41 Grimmyman123 wrote:
I quite enjoyed last night's show, and how it really took head on the issue and discussion of TvZ. Now, I felt that Idra did a lot of points that weren't really addressed, making statements in such a way that they were fact, QXC did make solid presentation of the Terran viewpoint, and the discussion was sound, polite, and well rounded. Best part yet, is that Idra, in a nut shell, indicated WHAT (get back to this in a minute) Terran needs to do to engage a Zerg opponent. All the while, you really could see QXC's gears turning in his head, and I could almost see him devising strategy and gameplay.
When Avilo came on, he poorly represented himself, and just complained about WHY Terran wasn't winning. Idra reiterated WHAT Terran needs to do, but that didn't seem to satisfy Avilo's complaints. I felt that Avilo only would have been satisfied if Idra told Avilo HOW to beat a zerg opponent. And that's the big difference between QXC, Idra, and Avilo. QXC and Idra discuss the WHY and WHAT needs to be done, Avilo wants the HOW - and that is the differnce between a game changer and a strategist, and someone that just emulates others do and plays the game. Pro vs amateur effectively.
One of the better shows. I would have liked to see Incontrol not try and be entertaining or joking during a serious discussion, interupting with his abacus, it kind of took away from the seriousness of the show. There is a time and place for joking, even on the show, but during a serious discussion (TvZ) in which Protoss has not direct stance, it might have been time just to sit idly by. Jokes were great, just poor timing.
Yeah Idra really dropped some real knowledge bombs:
-Suicide hellions
-stay even with zerg macro
-heavy cost efficient MMM trading into mass expand
-build 4 starports
-build ravens
-build ghosts
You can read these tips at any random site of the recently closed thread about the queen range. You don't need to be a pro gamer to come up with this. On top of that Idra makes his points in a way that you can't really disagree with him without causing an open conflict. The way he talks about MKP is just one example of that.
And to the Avilo mess:
The opening jokes about the hat were a nice Ice-breaker, from there on everything went down hill fast.
Both Idra and Avilo escalate the situation, while QXC is the only one that tries to keep it civil and then Idra goes into personal insults, after that Avilo gets cut off mid-sentence. IMHO QXC was the only one who acted mature in the situation.
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Listening to SOTG right now so I'll update this post later.
What I can get so far from past posts;
-Avilo came into the show in a very bad manner, just complaining about how terran isn't winning. (Wheres the build creativity these days, I miss when BW pros found out new ways to beat so called unbeatable strategy) This was a really really bad idea, he knows what idra would've done, this should've been foreshadowed
-Idra is inevitably going to throw shit at him.
-JP didn't know this was going to happen, he may have guessed it to some extent but not this far
-I don't understand the argument why you have to be polite to guests in SOTG? This isn't someone coming into your house for tea, this is SoTG, as I remember they don't have to and they haven't been polite to guests in past episodes.
-I believe Idra brings nice discussion, however hes a very controversial pillar. I enjoy him in the show personally, some of the stuff you guys post about him are as bad as what hes done to avilo. Lets keep a calm discussion and give calm response and criticisms.
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Why are we still calling these people the pillars of our community?
JP- He is not a pillar of our community. He is a Drama Queen who is thriving off our shitty community. He isn't even a good host. He royally fucked up handlling this situation. If it was his first time being this bad, itd be ok, but he has been like this for 2 years now. He is only in this scene for the money/drama (lol remember drewbie and his gf LOLOL, please leave this scene JP).
Incontrol- I used to be a huge fan. But the last 2 episodes have shown Incontrol for who he is. He is a bully. He likes to be mean, and has a very condescending humor. Yea he can cast, and does good comentary. But his actions last 2 episodes have made me stop being a fan. Most of this episodes fault is his, if he wasn't on the show I doubt JP would have brought Avilo on. Go back to gamestop please.
QXC- Guy has class. i hate terran, but he is becoming my fav foreigner terran. He is just soo awesome. Not a single complaint, and he is the only person who acted professionally on the show.
NoNy- TY for remaining neutral.
Idra- This guy is still in the scene? This is twice now that JP has allowed Idra a podium to cast his shit over everyone. First Real Talk, now SoTG. He doesn't deserve any of this. Like, I do think that top 5 pro players who want to talk shit on Idra should be allowed to come on SoTG and unleash everything they can on Idra. He deserves the hate, you keep giving him podiums to express his views on. First against Naniwa, now against Avilo. Guy is a terrible tool. He shouldn't be allowed back on the show for his unprofessionalism.
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Why do we make them the pillars? Especially JP/Incontrol/Idra. Like, i litterally can't stand these 3 people. Out of our whole community, they are the worst. Drama Queens, Flamers, Bullies, Only in it for the money. Etc.
Why dont we chose some pillars that are good? We are gonna kill our own scene when 'Idra' is referred to as a Pillar. LOL
edit:
On topic of the show. JP you need to get the show to not be about 'making fun of players'. Two shows in a row filled with 75 percent 'avilo bashing' is funny as fuck. Your turning both your shows into 'lets make fun of somebody'. Not cool bro
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I just watched the Vod JP that was seriously pathetic hosting. For me Avilo came out as a nice rational person who didnt take any potshots towards the other guest but wow he received alot. Avilo stayed calm the hole time and had some excellent points.
And then JP you just cut him off?? Seriously JP you should be ashamed
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On June 29 2012 23:19 ohampatu wrote:
Why are we still calling these people the pillars of our community?
JP- He is not a pillar of our community. He is a Drama Queen who is thriving off our shitty community. He isn't even a good host. He royally fucked up handlling this situation. If it was his first time being this bad, itd be ok, but he has been like this for 2 years now. He is only in this scene for the money/drama (lol remember drewbie and his gf LOLOL, please leave this scene JP).
Incontrol- I used to be a huge fan. But the last 2 episodes have shown Incontrol for who he is. He is a bully. He likes to be mean, and has a very condescending humor. Yea he can cast, and does good comentary. But his actions last 2 episodes have made me stop being a fan. Most of this episodes fault is his, if he wasn't on the show I doubt JP would have brought Avilo on. Go back to gamestop please.
QXC- Guy has class. i hate terran, but he is becoming my fav foreigner terran. He is just soo awesome. Not a single complaint, and he is the only person who acted professionally on the show.
NoNy- TY for remaining neutral.
Idra- This guy is still in the scene? This is twice now that JP has allowed Idra a podium to cast his shit over everyone. First Real Talk, now SoTG. He doesn't deserve any of this. Like, I do think that top 5 pro players who want to talk shit on Idra should be allowed to come on SoTG and unleash everything they can on Idra. He deserves the hate, you keep giving him podiums to express his views on. First against Naniwa, now against Avilo. Guy is a terrible tool. He shouldn't be allowed back on the show for his unprofessionalism.
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Why do we make them the pillars? Especially JP/Incontrol/Idra. Like, i litterally can't stand these 3 people. Out of our whole community, they are the worst. Drama Queens, Flamers, Bullies, Only in it for the money. Etc.
Why dont we chose some pillars that are good? We are gonna kill our own scene when 'Idra' is referred to as a Pillar. LOL
edit:
On topic of the show. JP you need to get the show to not be about 'making fun of players'. Two shows in a row filled with 75 percent 'avilo bashing' is funny as fuck. Your turning both your shows into 'lets make fun of somebody'. Not cool bro
I have no words.
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On June 29 2012 23:14 Barleyarley wrote:
I used to quite like SOTG, but I've lost my appetite for it after watching the TvZ episode. Three of the main staples of the show (Idra, InControl and JP) acquitted themselves terribly and made me seriously question how people like that can become so influential in the community.
I didn't know anything about Avilo before watching this episode but, from the basis of this podcast, he really didn't do anything to deserve the abuse that he received. As soon as he entered the chat it was pretty clear from viewing it that it was going to be a hostile environment, and he was perfectly within his rights to try and address InControl's issues with him. InControl was either too cowardly or too arrogant to give a response though.
QXC is clearly quite articulate and did well to not get dragged into the mess at the end of the show, but I felt like Avilo did a much better job in being concise with his argument. He became more aggressive as the conversation went on, but it was quite clear that none of them where willing to hear out his points anyway and were more interested in trying to bait him into a reaction. Imagine how frustrating it must be to enter a podcast to discuss something you feel you have something to say about, and just have people belittle you and completely ignore what you came to say anyway.
If these 3 guys think that it is acceptable to belittle less-known members of the community and completely write off their opinions because they don't get a pay cheque from being involved in what they love, then I suppose they should continue acting as they did in this podcast. But maybe they should try to be more aware that it is the same community, that is involved in eSports for the love of it that puts them on that pedestal. That provides the audience that allows them to make a living from eSports. That ultimately allows them to live a lifestyle that most gamers would dream off.
All 3 of them are only in the position that they are today because of the grace of the community. JP is not a good caster and not exactly an enigmatic character, he was just in the right place at the right time. inControl and Idra are both still riding off their earlier successes and neither look like ever really being relevant on the wider competitive scene again. This grace will wane eventually, and it will fade a whole lot faster if they continue to conduct themselves in the manner that they did on this podcast.
But of course, I don't wear a team jersey, so my opinion is probably pretty irrelevant.
PS. Idra calling MKP terrible was a particular highlight for me, they ego on that guy (just a shame he has nothing to back it up with)...
The problem with Avilo's points were they they were exaggerated and all over the place, jumping from one point to another (Talking about Zerg getting up to "80" drones, which Idra said you can just get 3CC and macro greedily, then Avilo said the Zerg can just all-in you, which are two completely different scenarios). While QXC was timid with his perspective he presented it much better.
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On June 29 2012 23:08 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 22:38 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 22:35 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:29 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:22 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:19 Elldar wrote:
So, you had to have QXC to say what Avilo was "trying" to say because he had made poor arguments and silly examples (which was so funny that they made JP laugh), when he started to derail everything from a debate he got cut off, what a surprise. How did avilo derail the debate? I agree his arguments weren't that solid, but i think the people telling him to "shut the fuck up" are the ones derailing the debate. No, people telling him shut the fuck up were just stating the fact. Avilo was like a student that decided to teach his teacher. It was irritating and stupid. He was clearly on the show for drama only and that is what we got. Only people complaining in here are either Avilo fanboys (good thing they didn't do this to Destiny :D) or the most hardcore whiners that moved over the that Terran whine topic that was closed recently. I had never even heard of Avilo before this show. And telling a person to shut the fuck up in a debate, no matter how bad one party is doing, is both bad mannered and immature. Also i play protoss, not terran. I have a problem with this kind of behaviour, nothing else. If you look at it as a debate from equals then that is true. And if Idra said to QXC at any point to shut the fuck up I would also be here holding a pitchfork or a torch but to Avilo?! Did you listen to him at all? As I said, it was like when a teacher who obviously knows much more then you tries to teach you something and you start acting like he knows shit and you should teach him what did you expect?! Has never in your schooling years a teacher told one of his students to Shut up? Idra being avilos teacher. Are you serious with that comparison? wth I don't know how long you have been following Sc2 but Idra has been a relevant player for a very long time. In addition to that he has been talking balance and tactics for as long and has almost always been right (and he admitted to being wrong when he did like when he called Nestea bad after Nestea 1st GSL win and admitted being wrong). Then him an QXC have a really good and smart talk about current state of TvZ. The Avilo comes in and shows kid like knowledge and understanding, ignores all that has been said prior to that. Yes, my comparison stands.
Idra "has been" relevant. He has been bitching about balance right from the get go. Even when actual top zergs said that zvp was not unbalanced (or even that zerg was on top) he still whined and whined and whined about it.
He is bad manered, he is actually not that good and cannot be objective in a balance discussion.
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On June 29 2012 21:24 CCsyph wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 20:49 Grend wrote:On June 29 2012 20:34 4ZakeN87 wrote:On June 29 2012 20:26 Disengaged wrote:On June 29 2012 20:10 EpeenKingPrime wrote:
The way you guys handled the Avilo thing is disrespectful and very unprofessional. Good thing this show isn't a serious,professional show. Seriously, people are taking this small little incident out of proportions. Good episode as always, JP! Or maybe you should not talk bullshit about other players and invite them into a public ambush? Of course we can choose to act unprofessionally and behave like a highschool bullies if we want to, I however had hoped we would have moved past that point. He "invited" himself on the show. If you basically whine your way onto something like this you should not expect to get the royal treatment.. To me he seems like an incredibly annoying person >_> Just seemed a bit pointless to invite him on, QXC is more than able to discuss TvZ balance, and he is able to do it in a constructive way that actually gets somewhere. Seemed like a "what the heck, let´s stir up some drama" move. Don't attack someone just because he "seems" like an annoying person, you don't know him, you've never spoken to him, this is the first time he is in the spotlight so it is completely invalid to judge him on a balance discussion. Maybe his points were flawed but the way he was treated is symbolic defamation to him. It is unfair.
I´m not attacking anyone I am stating my opionion. And I am quite able to form an opinion about someone based on numerous clips of him interacting with people and reading his posts, thank you very much.
Oh and just because you did not know him before this episode of SotG is on you. He has been around for quite awhile..
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On June 29 2012 23:24 manloveman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:08 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:38 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 22:35 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:29 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:22 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:19 Elldar wrote:
So, you had to have QXC to say what Avilo was "trying" to say because he had made poor arguments and silly examples (which was so funny that they made JP laugh), when he started to derail everything from a debate he got cut off, what a surprise. How did avilo derail the debate? I agree his arguments weren't that solid, but i think the people telling him to "shut the fuck up" are the ones derailing the debate. No, people telling him shut the fuck up were just stating the fact. Avilo was like a student that decided to teach his teacher. It was irritating and stupid. He was clearly on the show for drama only and that is what we got. Only people complaining in here are either Avilo fanboys (good thing they didn't do this to Destiny :D) or the most hardcore whiners that moved over the that Terran whine topic that was closed recently. I had never even heard of Avilo before this show. And telling a person to shut the fuck up in a debate, no matter how bad one party is doing, is both bad mannered and immature. Also i play protoss, not terran. I have a problem with this kind of behaviour, nothing else. If you look at it as a debate from equals then that is true. And if Idra said to QXC at any point to shut the fuck up I would also be here holding a pitchfork or a torch but to Avilo?! Did you listen to him at all? As I said, it was like when a teacher who obviously knows much more then you tries to teach you something and you start acting like he knows shit and you should teach him what did you expect?! Has never in your schooling years a teacher told one of his students to Shut up? Idra being avilos teacher. Are you serious with that comparison? wth I don't know how long you have been following Sc2 but Idra has been a relevant player for a very long time. In addition to that he has been talking balance and tactics for as long and has almost always been right (and he admitted to being wrong when he did like when he called Nestea bad after Nestea 1st GSL win and admitted being wrong). Then him an QXC have a really good and smart talk about current state of TvZ. The Avilo comes in and shows kid like knowledge and understanding, ignores all that has been said prior to that. Yes, my comparison stands. Idra "has been" relevant. He has been bitching about balance right from the get go. Even when actual top zergs said that zvp was not unbalanced (or even that zerg was on top) he still whined and whined and whined about it. He is bad manered, he is actually not that good and cannot be objective in a balance discussion.
Up until recently he was one of the most consistent players in MLG's and the like, repeatedly being the top foreigner or thereabouts, being the only one to take series off of monster koreans, and only recently has he actually dropped off and suddenly he's not good anymore. Maybe he's just not a total monster like he was a few months ago, but that is, as always, subject to change.
Unlike, I feel the need to point out, Avilo who has always been way below par and even whined about terran when they were demonstrably overpowered.
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On June 29 2012 23:19 ohampatu wrote:
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haha wtf. you want to replace all of them? how about you just watch another show?
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LOl at all the kids that live in a perfect world . This CHILD avilo taked over greg and got what he deserved. Please stop living in a fantasy land where it isnt ok to call people stupid if they are being stupid
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What the hell did I just watch. I don't care who Avilo is or what he did prior to this show, but you don't treat anyone like this on a show wtf. I don't think he said anything unreasonable, and if "some" people can't handle debating him, consider not letting the guy on in the first place or maybe ditch the immature cheap shot taking kid. This shows exactly why Esports is still so immature, having 'pillars' like this iconizing the community, it's quite pathetic.
You guys lost my respect and I don't even know who Avilo is as a person.
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On June 29 2012 23:23 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:14 Barleyarley wrote:
I used to quite like SOTG, but I've lost my appetite for it after watching the TvZ episode. Three of the main staples of the show (Idra, InControl and JP) acquitted themselves terribly and made me seriously question how people like that can become so influential in the community.
I didn't know anything about Avilo before watching this episode but, from the basis of this podcast, he really didn't do anything to deserve the abuse that he received. As soon as he entered the chat it was pretty clear from viewing it that it was going to be a hostile environment, and he was perfectly within his rights to try and address InControl's issues with him. InControl was either too cowardly or too arrogant to give a response though.
QXC is clearly quite articulate and did well to not get dragged into the mess at the end of the show, but I felt like Avilo did a much better job in being concise with his argument. He became more aggressive as the conversation went on, but it was quite clear that none of them where willing to hear out his points anyway and were more interested in trying to bait him into a reaction. Imagine how frustrating it must be to enter a podcast to discuss something you feel you have something to say about, and just have people belittle you and completely ignore what you came to say anyway.
If these 3 guys think that it is acceptable to belittle less-known members of the community and completely write off their opinions because they don't get a pay cheque from being involved in what they love, then I suppose they should continue acting as they did in this podcast. But maybe they should try to be more aware that it is the same community, that is involved in eSports for the love of it that puts them on that pedestal. That provides the audience that allows them to make a living from eSports. That ultimately allows them to live a lifestyle that most gamers would dream off.
All 3 of them are only in the position that they are today because of the grace of the community. JP is not a good caster and not exactly an enigmatic character, he was just in the right place at the right time. inControl and Idra are both still riding off their earlier successes and neither look like ever really being relevant on the wider competitive scene again. This grace will wane eventually, and it will fade a whole lot faster if they continue to conduct themselves in the manner that they did on this podcast.
But of course, I don't wear a team jersey, so my opinion is probably pretty irrelevant.
PS. Idra calling MKP terrible was a particular highlight for me, they ego on that guy (just a shame he has nothing to back it up with)... The problem with Avilo's points were they they were exaggerated and all over the place, jumping from one point to another (Talking about Zerg getting up to "80" drones, which Idra said you can just get 3CC and macro greedily, then Avilo said the Zerg can just all-in you, which are two completely different scenarios). While QXC was timid with his perspective he presented it much better.
To be fair those points aren't really all over the place. It is relatively easy for Zerg to scout a greedy opening, but it is next to impossible for Terran to scout a 2 base all-in BEFORE they put down the infrastructure to be greedy. What you're left with is a coinflip. If you prepare for a Ling/Bane/Roach attack, they don't have to do one and you will fall behind in a macro game. If you play greedy to stay on pace with them, they stop making drones and do the Ling/Bane/Roach attack, which is almost guaranteed to do plenty of damage and almost never completely fails.
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On June 29 2012 23:28 hifriend wrote:haha wtf. you want to replace all of them? how about you just watch another show?
Not replace them. Im saying stop making them the 'pillars' of our community.
I dont care if the show continues as it is. I just wish the community would see it for what it is. These guys think they can act like this because we say they are the 'pillars'. Bull shit. Lets make people like Day9 and DJWheat pillars. Why must we follow this group? Its like the community thinks these guys need to be the 'face' of our scene.
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On June 29 2012 23:33 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:28 hifriend wrote:On June 29 2012 23:19 ohampatu wrote:
- haha wtf. you want to replace all of them? how about you just watch another show? Not replace them. Im saying stop making them the 'pillars' of our community. I dont care if the show continues as it is. I just wish the community would see it for what it is. These guys think they can act like this because we say they are the 'pillars'. Bull shit. Lets make people like Day9 and DJWheat pillars. Why must we follow this group? Its like the community thinks these guys need to be the 'face' of our scene.
You dont need to follow them though. Just dont tell other people who they should and shouldnt follow, its up to them.
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QXC's discussion with Idra was decent, but not good enough, Idra has a golden boy personality("I am always right, stfu") and QXC is not the type of guy that is gonna call him out on that, so whatever discussion they can have is essentially limited, you could see that at several times when Idra threw some general statements with nothing to back them up, and while Qxc definetely had something in mind to say, he chose not to, it was somewhat subtle but you could see there was discomfort for him to be in that situation, it was kinda like arguing with a tribe leader surrounded by his people.
If you play greedy, zerg can always play greedier than you SAFELY, or choose to bust you, because the same building used for building workers, can be used for units, which means that they can go 3 hatch and still bust you for doing 3cc, terran does not have that option, and there's no answer to that lack of options, you either go full-blown macro, or you don't, there's no in-between, it's how the game works nowadays, some suggest doing 11/11 or 12/14 to gain a decent econ advantage while being somewhat safe, but that's always naturally a big gamble that can't and shouldn't be relied on, late game problems is another discussion altogether.
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idra and to a lil lessar extent, eg, are becoming such a downer on the NA sc2 scene. Their attitude towards everyone in their own community is garbage, just like their skills. I really wish more promising players with good attitudes had a more prominent spot in the scene but it seems like all the gatekeepers are such assholes and dont want to share the spotlight with anybody who hasnt 'made' it yet.
ps: you could literally hear the jealousy in all their voices when QXC was talking about the complexity house.....Lolol.
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On June 29 2012 23:35 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:33 ohampatu wrote:On June 29 2012 23:28 hifriend wrote:On June 29 2012 23:19 ohampatu wrote:
- haha wtf. you want to replace all of them? how about you just watch another show? Not replace them. Im saying stop making them the 'pillars' of our community. I dont care if the show continues as it is. I just wish the community would see it for what it is. These guys think they can act like this because we say they are the 'pillars'. Bull shit. Lets make people like Day9 and DJWheat pillars. Why must we follow this group? Its like the community thinks these guys need to be the 'face' of our scene. You dont need to follow them though. Just dont tell other people who they should and shouldnt follow, its up to them.
im not the boss of anyone, but i dont think their is rule with me saying 'the community shouldn't put these people on pedestals, they are bad for the scene'
You can disagree/etc. Im just stating my own opinion, i have no control whether you agree or go against me. It is my opinion that our community shouldn't watch them, nothing more. If you dont agree with my opinion by all means stick to Real Talk and SoTG
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On June 29 2012 23:33 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:28 hifriend wrote:On June 29 2012 23:19 ohampatu wrote:
- haha wtf. you want to replace all of them? how about you just watch another show? Not replace them. Im saying stop making them the 'pillars' of our community. I dont care if the show continues as it is. I just wish the community would see it for what it is. These guys think they can act like this because we say they are the 'pillars'. Bull shit. Lets make people like Day9 and DJWheat pillars. Why must we follow this group? Its like the community thinks these guys need to be the 'face' of our scene.
They didn't kill a child, jesus.
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EPT
