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On June 21 2012 14:12 Vindicare605 wrote:
Whether its deserved or not SOTG clearly has developed a reputation of being anti-Terran biased.
Now, the more important questions are. Do they care? Are they interested in correcting that reputation? If so, how?
if the answer to all of those is No, I feel that's more telling than anything being discussed here. If the purpose of the show is to bring in and discuss news from around the SC2 scene, they obviously don't want to come off as being biased against a particular race.
Since that's what they're being accused of it stands to reason to me, that they'll do something in the future to correct if they care. And if they don't should they really be taken seriously at all then?
Things to ponder.
Whether it's deserved or not Barack Obama has developed a reputation of being a secret Muslim born in Kenya.
Now, the more important questions are. Does he care? Is he interested in correcting that reputation? If so, how?
if the answer to all of those is No, I feel that's more telling than anything being discussed here. If the purpose of the office of President is to represent the people of America and make the important decisions that affect the country, he obviously doesn't want to come across as being a Kenyan Muslim operative destroying the US for the glory of Al Qaeda.
Since that's what he's being accused of it stands to reason to me, that he'll do something in the future to correct if he cares. And if he doesn't shouldn't we just assume that he really is an evil African terrorist bent on our destruction?
Things to ponder.
+ Show Spoiler +The point being, if someone doesn't respond to a ridiculous accusation, that doesn't mean the accusation is true or we shouldn't take them seriously. That's such a weird argument. They're not actively trying to please every single forum whiner so we shouldn't take them seriously. Just think about that.
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On June 21 2012 18:10 Defacer wrote:
Guys,
Can I remind you that this is a panel show featuring guys with a bunch of opinions that talk shit and sometimes discuss Starcraft?
Complaining that it's biased is like complaining that Politically Incorrect is biased.
except that people actually listen to what the SOTG cast says. I don't know how many times I've heard some random SOTG "truism" repeated by some forumite or someone in a game. And a lot of the time, these truisms aren't actually true. So when the SOTG people for example directly contradict a bunch of GSL level players on the state of tvz, if you don't actually have as lot of experience with tvz playing specifically from a terran perspective, you might believe what they say is valid.
They're spreading misinformation - which is fine, their prerogative et cetera, people just need to be aware that the panel isn't as knowledgeable about the match ups they don't play as they like to think they are. A lot of the time, one or more of the panelists are downright clueless - and that seems to be mostly when they discuss terran
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On June 21 2012 18:59 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 18:10 Defacer wrote:
Guys,
Can I remind you that this is a panel show featuring guys with a bunch of opinions that talk shit and sometimes discuss Starcraft?
Complaining that it's biased is like complaining that Politically Incorrect is biased. except that people actually listen to what the SOTG cast says. I don't know how many times I've heard some random SOTG "truism" repeated by some forumite or someone in a game. And a lot of the time, these truisms aren't actually true. So when the SOTG people for example directly contradict a bunch of GSL level players on the state of tvz, if you don't actually have as lot of experience with tvz playing specifically from a terran perspective, you might believe what they say is valid. They're spreading misinformation - which is fine, their prerogative et cetera, people just need to be aware that the panel isn't as knowledgeable about the match ups they don't play as they like to think they are. A lot of the time, one or more of the panelists are downright clueless - and that seems to be mostly when they discuss terran
Thinking about it, I'm struggling to remember what these offending comments, this spread of misinformation, actually were. I mean, I can remember them saying it's funny that terrans are whining after being on top for so long and now they're not winning everything they bitch and moan, I remember IdrA saying something about how hellion openings can still be pretty good...
Seriously, I'd actually like to know what was said that was so anti-Terran because I don't remember it.
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On June 21 2012 10:17 Dodgin wrote:When you look at it this way It's pretty hard to deny there's a problem...
Yup. It doesn't really matter what stat you look at right now. The match up needs to be looked at. JP's attempt to grab 1 Terran on his show does not make their discussion acceptable. Saying there isn't a problem is ridiculous and then bashing all Terran players was hugely unprofessional.
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One thing that they didn't comment on about Dreamhack was the map pool. NonY and co. have been saying for a long time that a 5 map pool is the way to go, and now Dreamhack finally did that. With pretty good maps as well (Antiga cross-spawn no gold, Daybreak, Ohana, Metropolis, Cloud Kingdom). Did that make a difference in the quality of the matches?
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On June 21 2012 18:59 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 18:10 Defacer wrote:
Guys,
Can I remind you that this is a panel show featuring guys with a bunch of opinions that talk shit and sometimes discuss Starcraft?
Complaining that it's biased is like complaining that Politically Incorrect is biased. except that people actually listen to what the SOTG cast says. I don't know how many times I've heard some random SOTG "truism" repeated by some forumite or someone in a game. And a lot of the time, these truisms aren't actually true. So when the SOTG people for example directly contradict a bunch of GSL level players on the state of tvz, if you don't actually have as lot of experience with tvz playing specifically from a terran perspective, you might believe what they say is valid. They're spreading misinformation - which is fine, their prerogative et cetera, people just need to be aware that the panel isn't as knowledgeable about the match ups they don't play as they like to think they are. A lot of the time, one or more of the panelists are downright clueless - and that seems to be mostly when they discuss terran
yea if u believe community opinion has no impact on balance patch ure very wrong, and if u believe community figure dont create those opinions ure also wrong. artosis is one of the main reasons ghosts were stomped into the ground, that and jp/day9 complaining about ghosts during blizzcon final game lol. there still was almost zero data about ghost balance in prolevel game, since there were like 56 code s level tvz that figured them, all of thoses were Mvp. Blizzard didnt ever bother to say they nerfed it for balance reasons, they just said they didnt like it. and the community reactions were a big part of it. so yea kinda bitter from a terran perspective to see that the issues are not voiced nearly as much.
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On June 20 2012 15:17 DaveVAH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 12:06 sGSyntax wrote:
:3 Avilo. Revolutionary and I couldn't think of a better Terran perspective that I would actually love to hear instead of feeling insulted by an entire cast.
Was it me or did Artosis sound horribly biased and completely clueless? He did sound horribly biased. Personally I lost a lot of respect for him. You need to get a Terran with some guts on the show JP before I watch you again. The bias was so disgusting I had to close the stream even though I looked forward to watching it.
True, is a Zerg/Protoss show  We need to look in another place
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Starcraft 2 community: proving they are the worst community; week, after week.
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On June 21 2012 18:59 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 18:10 Defacer wrote:
Guys,
Can I remind you that this is a panel show featuring guys with a bunch of opinions that talk shit and sometimes discuss Starcraft?
Complaining that it's biased is like complaining that Politically Incorrect is biased. except that people actually listen to what the SOTG cast says. I don't know how many times I've heard some random SOTG "truism" repeated by some forumite or someone in a game. And a lot of the time, these truisms aren't actually true. So when the SOTG people for example directly contradict a bunch of GSL level players on the state of tvz, if you don't actually have as lot of experience with tvz playing specifically from a terran perspective, you might believe what they say is valid. They're spreading misinformation - which is fine, their prerogative et cetera, people just need to be aware that the panel isn't as knowledgeable about the match ups they don't play as they like to think they are. A lot of the time, one or more of the panelists are downright clueless - and that seems to be mostly when they discuss terran
Wow. I always thought I listened because the show was entertaining.
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On June 21 2012 20:54 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 18:59 Quotidian wrote:On June 21 2012 18:10 Defacer wrote:
Guys,
Can I remind you that this is a panel show featuring guys with a bunch of opinions that talk shit and sometimes discuss Starcraft?
Complaining that it's biased is like complaining that Politically Incorrect is biased. except that people actually listen to what the SOTG cast says. I don't know how many times I've heard some random SOTG "truism" repeated by some forumite or someone in a game. And a lot of the time, these truisms aren't actually true. So when the SOTG people for example directly contradict a bunch of GSL level players on the state of tvz, if you don't actually have as lot of experience with tvz playing specifically from a terran perspective, you might believe what they say is valid. They're spreading misinformation - which is fine, their prerogative et cetera, people just need to be aware that the panel isn't as knowledgeable about the match ups they don't play as they like to think they are. A lot of the time, one or more of the panelists are downright clueless - and that seems to be mostly when they discuss terran Wow. I always thought I listened because the show was entertaining.
Indeed. Sometimes I even learn about some sc news that I happened to miss, and that's great!
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Its a good show with very smart people. Just try to stay open minded capable of asking questions
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On June 21 2012 19:56 offshore33 wrote:
Starcraft 2 community: proving they are the worst community; week, after week.
Visit the diablo 3 battle.net forum, you will be amazed how negative a group of people can be  .
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On June 21 2012 21:32 Domus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 19:56 offshore33 wrote:
Starcraft 2 community: proving they are the worst community; week, after week. Visit the diablo 3 battle.net forum, you will be amazed how negative a group of people can be .
Visit the Wow community forums and you'll realize that the SC2 one is civilized, especially on TL. Hell, the Dota/Lol/Hon community sections are the worst in all of gaming.
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All of this back and forth gives me the mental image of this argument taking place in real life...like at a hotel convention center...everyone starts brawling...iNcontrol is using Avilo as a weapon, swinging him by his legs and taking people out like Neo in Matrix 2....Then Orb shows up w yayo dust all on his face and grenades...Screams N-word..and everyone dies.
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Is it possible for people to.. you know.. stop bitching about everything?
I personally liked this episode.
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If you think about it, no one can really talk about each of the races properly because there will always be a bias. You would have to be equally persistent with all the races and conduct analytical experiments involving a lot of statistics to actually study such a thing.
But there is nothing wrong with people giving their own non-scientific personal opinions on the matter. There are no qualifications necessary for just speaking your opinion. If you want something accurate, go to the numbers. I don't know why you'd be expecting something like that out of a talkshow with prominent community figures. You guys just want terran opinions? Opinions are opinions; they're not going to directly counter another opinion or anything like that. Facts are what you want and this is not the show for stats analysis of any kind. Enjoy the show for what it is.
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I play Terran and after hearing that SotG trashed Terrans super hard last Tuesday night, I couldn't wait to find out what they said. Late last night, I settled in my chair, snuggled my pillow, and sipped my chocolate milk. I was prepared to be passionately enraged by anti-Terran sentiments...that never came.
I heard what the SotG cast had to say about Terran and Terran players and I honestly don't understand the outrage. Everything they said was entirely reasonable for a simple panel show full of personal opinion as well as a show that is regarded so highly as an actual measure of the State of the Game. Artosis, Incontrol, and Idra all said basically the same thing in slightly different ways: First, they issued factual statements about the reasonability of Terran builds and the current difficulty of TvZ in these post-patch days. Next they pointed out that Terrans, as do all players eventually, always figure out what they need to change to win. Then they added another step. This next step is the most important step of all. The race whine step. After espousing undisputable fact on the current state of the game they threw in little quips about their exaggerated take on the Terran race in SC2. There is nothing wrong with mixing facts and personal opinions on a panel show; especially when it was extra easy to tell when one ended and the other began. Nobody ever said anything wrong or inflammatory. It was entirely correct information with small jabs at Terrans. It's the same thing any of you do when talking about races you don't play or like.
I'd always considered Terran players to be the quiet, stoic heroes of the Starcraft universe. We have great role models like Thorzain to show us that Terran is for people that are incredibly nice and devastatingly adorable while being calculating killing machines. Not a race of whiners with easily hurt butts.
I think if, as JP put it, Avilo did actually "call out" SotG on air then he is a little out of line. It's on Avilo to not overreact to a tame panel show. Through my limited research on this huge thread, I think I saw what Avilo actually said and I think it was a little aggressive. Jokingly race bashing is something that happens literally every second of every day, and that's ok even if what actually happened was nothing like race bashing. Nothing happened.
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On June 22 2012 00:17 Gibbas[Arm] wrote:I'd always considered Terran players to be the quiet, stoic heroes of the Starcraft universe. We have great role models like Thorzain to show us that Terran is for people that are incredibly nice and devastatingly adorable while being calculating killing machines. Not a race of whiners with easily hurt butts.
I had similar thoughts about protoss just after release when zerg were the ones whining. Oh how wrong I was
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Dear god people............
Thanks for this episode JP!
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EPT
