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On March 30 2012 00:17 Reedjr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 00:13 Hider wrote:On March 29 2012 21:48 Zythius wrote:On March 29 2012 21:35 TheSir wrote:On March 29 2012 19:54 RvB wrote:On March 29 2012 19:47 iNcontroL wrote:
we do a public show for free... the shit we as hosts get on a regular basis from people in this thread does not somehow get justified by it "being public."
You want to pay us money? Do it, then you get to bitch when we do stuff you don't like. Up until then you can absolutely bitch and moan but it's a free service so you just look like an ass. So people aren't allowed to voice their concerns over the show because it's free? If you're deciding to create a show you're opening yourself up to both praise and critic you can't realistically expect just to get the upside without the downside. . I dont get that attitude either, if you offer a product or service then it doesn't matter if it's free or paid. I dont care if a product/service is free or not, if i see something i dont like about it, i will say it. If you offer me something for free, it better be good otherwise dont bother and if it's there is no alternative available i will complain the crap out of it. Just because something is for free is not a reason not to criticize something, that's ridiculous. If you dont want any criticism, then dont offer it but for god sake dont bring out the excuse: 'it's free, shut up and be happy about it' cause that just makes you look like a dummy who doesn't takes his customers/members/viewers what ever etc seriously. The hole 'you shouldn't complain when you get something for free' is just such a silly statement, when you have genuine arguments about a free service/product you should complain about it until they fix or change it. About the show, i kinda like SOTG and watch it sometimes on youtube and i dont really care about technical problems like bad audio cause i know there's basically no software to run a perfect podcast (skype + xfire = crap for exmaple) + most guest wont have the equipment to do so and if it's not watchable imo, i just dont watch it. First of all, you are completely wrong when it comes to paid versus free services. If they were to charge money for SOTG they would have more resources to make it better. Time is a limited resource by the way, and SOTG has to compete with other activities the hosts might want to spend time on (work, play, practice, travel, eat, sleep, etc). Some of these activities generate money, and SOTG does not. So guess which activities gets the highest priority? Also, SOTG does not necessarily help the hosts achieving goals like being a better SC2 player either. I'm not saying you shouldn't complain about free stuff, but just don't complain about things that are limited because of resources like time and money. And don't expect the worlds best audio or video when it is free. PS: The tone of your complaints are also important. This is compltely wrong. SOTG generates a lot of potential income. It should definitely be treated as part of their job. I don't think a 2-3 hour weekly (admittedly, it's been a lot less frequent than weekly) cast that hasn't run an ad all year generates much income.
Not because of ads, the popularity and spotlight from SotG the players get.
Directly translates into stream viewers, etc.
For all the talk about how free it is and how they do it just because they are THAT nice to us lower beings, it is basically part of how Nony and incontrol make their money. They don't win tournaments so they have to get by on fanboy-juice.
It should be clear by now that inc/nony are not contracted on their respective teams purely because of their sc2 results (any more). I know this might sound a bit like I'm bashing them, but I'm not. Their job is more being "community guys" or whatever you want to call it.
The show is free for the viewers, but that doesn't mean the pros don't gain anything from being on there.
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i think its difficult because the hosts already get a ton of shit if they dont win anything while talking about a player or balance. and yet when the excuse is that they are practicing all day and cant just do a sotg whenever we dont accept it ;D
i miss sotg being on every week but i can understand the time constraints are difficult to work it.
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I've stopped watching/listening to the show because it's just not worth my time to figure out when it's on, who's going to be on it, and whether or not any of the hosts will have anything to contribute. They've been very clear about the fact that the show is free and don't want to commit to any particular level of quality. That's all well and good, and I appreciate their contributions up to now, but the lack of commitment, regardless of the business model, is not good for the longterm health of the show. I'm amazed I've stuck with it this long, to be honest. I don't know what has happened recently, but I'm no longer motivated to deal with all the bullshit.
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Hey JP,
Show can improve in some obvious ways. I'm not going to list them out as I'm sure countless people before me and after me will do so.
I think you should stop asking people to fix their webcams when talking. I know you're trying to make the show look good but can't you type it in the chat when someone's connection is fucked up? It kinda comes off as you not giving a shit about what the hosts are saying. Also for the love of god stop bitching about the overlays when people log off, if people log off they're not gonna give a shit what it looks like.
Looking forward to future episodes, hopefully with a full cast.
Edit: possible topic for next show.
Maybe you can get Idra on since I think he's in US?
I would love to hear him, Incontrol, Artosis and Day9's opinions on this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321089
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On March 30 2012 00:28 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 00:17 Reedjr wrote:On March 30 2012 00:13 Hider wrote:On March 29 2012 21:48 Zythius wrote:On March 29 2012 21:35 TheSir wrote:On March 29 2012 19:54 RvB wrote:On March 29 2012 19:47 iNcontroL wrote:
we do a public show for free... the shit we as hosts get on a regular basis from people in this thread does not somehow get justified by it "being public."
You want to pay us money? Do it, then you get to bitch when we do stuff you don't like. Up until then you can absolutely bitch and moan but it's a free service so you just look like an ass. So people aren't allowed to voice their concerns over the show because it's free? If you're deciding to create a show you're opening yourself up to both praise and critic you can't realistically expect just to get the upside without the downside. . I dont get that attitude either, if you offer a product or service then it doesn't matter if it's free or paid. I dont care if a product/service is free or not, if i see something i dont like about it, i will say it. If you offer me something for free, it better be good otherwise dont bother and if it's there is no alternative available i will complain the crap out of it. Just because something is for free is not a reason not to criticize something, that's ridiculous. If you dont want any criticism, then dont offer it but for god sake dont bring out the excuse: 'it's free, shut up and be happy about it' cause that just makes you look like a dummy who doesn't takes his customers/members/viewers what ever etc seriously. The hole 'you shouldn't complain when you get something for free' is just such a silly statement, when you have genuine arguments about a free service/product you should complain about it until they fix or change it. About the show, i kinda like SOTG and watch it sometimes on youtube and i dont really care about technical problems like bad audio cause i know there's basically no software to run a perfect podcast (skype + xfire = crap for exmaple) + most guest wont have the equipment to do so and if it's not watchable imo, i just dont watch it. First of all, you are completely wrong when it comes to paid versus free services. If they were to charge money for SOTG they would have more resources to make it better. Time is a limited resource by the way, and SOTG has to compete with other activities the hosts might want to spend time on (work, play, practice, travel, eat, sleep, etc). Some of these activities generate money, and SOTG does not. So guess which activities gets the highest priority? Also, SOTG does not necessarily help the hosts achieving goals like being a better SC2 player either. I'm not saying you shouldn't complain about free stuff, but just don't complain about things that are limited because of resources like time and money. And don't expect the worlds best audio or video when it is free. PS: The tone of your complaints are also important. This is compltely wrong. SOTG generates a lot of potential income. It should definitely be treated as part of their job. I don't think a 2-3 hour weekly (admittedly, it's been a lot less frequent than weekly) cast that hasn't run an ad all year generates much income. Not because of ads, the popularity and spotlight from SotG the players get. Directly translates into stream viewers, etc. For all the talk about how free it is and how they do it just because they are THAT nice to us lower beings, it is basically part of how Nony and incontrol make their money. They don't win tournaments so they have to get by on fanboy-juice. It should be clear by now that inc/nony are not contracted on their respective teams purely because of their sc2 results (any more). I know this might sound a bit like I'm bashing them, but I'm not. Their job is more being "community guys" or whatever you want to call it. The show is free for the viewers, but that doesn't mean the pros don't gain anything from being on there.
They have been players as well as community guys for a long, loooooooooong time. Where did the viewers come from in the first place? They were already fans of iNcontrol, Nony, Artosis, Day 9. Of all of them, Day 9 is the only one who relies on his stream and show for income. For everyone else, streaming is a nice little extra, not something one wants to rely on to make the rent. The show might give them a little boost, but it's not like Nony is a monster streamer, or that Geoff wouldn't find ways to be as outspoken (dude basically got his own spinoff with ITG). If they had as much contempt for us "lower beings" as you imply, this show would have been dead long, long ago, and not basically a keynote at Pax.
In short, I'm not saying they gain nothing from the show, but the gains are not that big. And they're investing time, which isn't a cheap resource either.
Edit: removed some repetition.
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On March 30 2012 00:28 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 00:17 Reedjr wrote:On March 30 2012 00:13 Hider wrote:On March 29 2012 21:48 Zythius wrote:On March 29 2012 21:35 TheSir wrote:On March 29 2012 19:54 RvB wrote:On March 29 2012 19:47 iNcontroL wrote:
we do a public show for free... the shit we as hosts get on a regular basis from people in this thread does not somehow get justified by it "being public."
You want to pay us money? Do it, then you get to bitch when we do stuff you don't like. Up until then you can absolutely bitch and moan but it's a free service so you just look like an ass. So people aren't allowed to voice their concerns over the show because it's free? If you're deciding to create a show you're opening yourself up to both praise and critic you can't realistically expect just to get the upside without the downside. . I dont get that attitude either, if you offer a product or service then it doesn't matter if it's free or paid. I dont care if a product/service is free or not, if i see something i dont like about it, i will say it. If you offer me something for free, it better be good otherwise dont bother and if it's there is no alternative available i will complain the crap out of it. Just because something is for free is not a reason not to criticize something, that's ridiculous. If you dont want any criticism, then dont offer it but for god sake dont bring out the excuse: 'it's free, shut up and be happy about it' cause that just makes you look like a dummy who doesn't takes his customers/members/viewers what ever etc seriously. The hole 'you shouldn't complain when you get something for free' is just such a silly statement, when you have genuine arguments about a free service/product you should complain about it until they fix or change it. About the show, i kinda like SOTG and watch it sometimes on youtube and i dont really care about technical problems like bad audio cause i know there's basically no software to run a perfect podcast (skype + xfire = crap for exmaple) + most guest wont have the equipment to do so and if it's not watchable imo, i just dont watch it. First of all, you are completely wrong when it comes to paid versus free services. If they were to charge money for SOTG they would have more resources to make it better. Time is a limited resource by the way, and SOTG has to compete with other activities the hosts might want to spend time on (work, play, practice, travel, eat, sleep, etc). Some of these activities generate money, and SOTG does not. So guess which activities gets the highest priority? Also, SOTG does not necessarily help the hosts achieving goals like being a better SC2 player either. I'm not saying you shouldn't complain about free stuff, but just don't complain about things that are limited because of resources like time and money. And don't expect the worlds best audio or video when it is free. PS: The tone of your complaints are also important. This is compltely wrong. SOTG generates a lot of potential income. It should definitely be treated as part of their job. I don't think a 2-3 hour weekly (admittedly, it's been a lot less frequent than weekly) cast that hasn't run an ad all year generates much income. Not because of ads, the popularity and spotlight from SotG the players get. Directly translates into stream viewers, etc. For all the talk about how free it is and how they do it just because they are THAT nice to us lower beings, it is basically part of how Nony and incontrol make their money. They don't win tournaments so they have to get by on fanboy-juice. It should be clear by now that inc/nony are not contracted on their respective teams purely because of their sc2 results (any more). I know this might sound a bit like I'm bashing them, but I'm not. Their job is more being "community guys" or whatever you want to call it. The show is free for the viewers, but that doesn't mean the pros don't gain anything from being on there.
Good thing everyone in this thread is offering non-cynical CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Also, this is one of the worst formats for offering criticism, because its 2000 pages long. Being direct and letting them know what you think is not necessarily living up to it's potential on a more personal level, without being a massive internet rage filled dick.
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Since some people evidently feel underappreciated I would like to take the time to post that I very much like the show, and am not bothered by minor audio problems and a lack of fancy overlay. I appreciate you guys take the time to bring entertainment to us for free and I am thankful for any show you are able to do. There are probably thousands of people who also are not whiny bitches, and like pretty much everything you do. They just don't tend to post very much, for obvious reasons. Probably helps to keep that in mind.
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On March 29 2012 23:05 mprs wrote:
And this:
"I dont get that attitude either, if you offer a product or service then it doesn't matter if it's free or paid. I dont care if a product/service is free or not, if i see something i dont like about it, i will say it. If you offer me something for free, it better be good otherwise dont bother and if it's there is no alternative available i will complain the crap out of it."
Do people not realize that if you are going to complain, it takes a lot less energy to sound somewhat respectful and grateful than whiny and angry. It is a free show. They are busy. It is also free. So their equipment isn't great and sometimes they don't have time. How exactly do you want them to remedy this while remaining free?
Wow you didn't even read my post at all. And im being respectful, there's nothing disrespectful in my post, if you think otherwise i cant help it that you have incredible long toes. I tell what i think of something pretty straight forward, im not gonna sweeten anything up just to please people, we dont do that were i come from and if your offended by that or think it's disrespectful then again i cant help it and sorry to say but it's not my problem.
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On March 30 2012 00:13 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:48 Zythius wrote:On March 29 2012 21:35 TheSir wrote:On March 29 2012 19:54 RvB wrote:On March 29 2012 19:47 iNcontroL wrote:
we do a public show for free... the shit we as hosts get on a regular basis from people in this thread does not somehow get justified by it "being public."
You want to pay us money? Do it, then you get to bitch when we do stuff you don't like. Up until then you can absolutely bitch and moan but it's a free service so you just look like an ass. So people aren't allowed to voice their concerns over the show because it's free? If you're deciding to create a show you're opening yourself up to both praise and critic you can't realistically expect just to get the upside without the downside. . I dont get that attitude either, if you offer a product or service then it doesn't matter if it's free or paid. I dont care if a product/service is free or not, if i see something i dont like about it, i will say it. If you offer me something for free, it better be good otherwise dont bother and if it's there is no alternative available i will complain the crap out of it. Just because something is for free is not a reason not to criticize something, that's ridiculous. If you dont want any criticism, then dont offer it but for god sake dont bring out the excuse: 'it's free, shut up and be happy about it' cause that just makes you look like a dummy who doesn't takes his customers/members/viewers what ever etc seriously. The hole 'you shouldn't complain when you get something for free' is just such a silly statement, when you have genuine arguments about a free service/product you should complain about it until they fix or change it. About the show, i kinda like SOTG and watch it sometimes on youtube and i dont really care about technical problems like bad audio cause i know there's basically no software to run a perfect podcast (skype + xfire = crap for exmaple) + most guest wont have the equipment to do so and if it's not watchable imo, i just dont watch it. First of all, you are completely wrong when it comes to paid versus free services. If they were to charge money for SOTG they would have more resources to make it better. Time is a limited resource by the way, and SOTG has to compete with other activities the hosts might want to spend time on (work, play, practice, travel, eat, sleep, etc). Some of these activities generate money, and SOTG does not. So guess which activities gets the highest priority? Also, SOTG does not necessarily help the hosts achieving goals like being a better SC2 player either. I'm not saying you shouldn't complain about free stuff, but just don't complain about things that are limited because of resources like time and money. And don't expect the worlds best audio or video when it is free. PS: The tone of your complaints are also important. This is compltely wrong. SOTG generates a lot of potential income. It should definitely be treated as part of their job.
What kind of income? I'll have more questions after this one has been answered.
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On March 30 2012 02:12 Zythius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 00:13 Hider wrote:On March 29 2012 21:48 Zythius wrote:On March 29 2012 21:35 TheSir wrote:On March 29 2012 19:54 RvB wrote:On March 29 2012 19:47 iNcontroL wrote:
we do a public show for free... the shit we as hosts get on a regular basis from people in this thread does not somehow get justified by it "being public."
You want to pay us money? Do it, then you get to bitch when we do stuff you don't like. Up until then you can absolutely bitch and moan but it's a free service so you just look like an ass. So people aren't allowed to voice their concerns over the show because it's free? If you're deciding to create a show you're opening yourself up to both praise and critic you can't realistically expect just to get the upside without the downside. . I dont get that attitude either, if you offer a product or service then it doesn't matter if it's free or paid. I dont care if a product/service is free or not, if i see something i dont like about it, i will say it. If you offer me something for free, it better be good otherwise dont bother and if it's there is no alternative available i will complain the crap out of it. Just because something is for free is not a reason not to criticize something, that's ridiculous. If you dont want any criticism, then dont offer it but for god sake dont bring out the excuse: 'it's free, shut up and be happy about it' cause that just makes you look like a dummy who doesn't takes his customers/members/viewers what ever etc seriously. The hole 'you shouldn't complain when you get something for free' is just such a silly statement, when you have genuine arguments about a free service/product you should complain about it until they fix or change it. About the show, i kinda like SOTG and watch it sometimes on youtube and i dont really care about technical problems like bad audio cause i know there's basically no software to run a perfect podcast (skype + xfire = crap for exmaple) + most guest wont have the equipment to do so and if it's not watchable imo, i just dont watch it. First of all, you are completely wrong when it comes to paid versus free services. If they were to charge money for SOTG they would have more resources to make it better. Time is a limited resource by the way, and SOTG has to compete with other activities the hosts might want to spend time on (work, play, practice, travel, eat, sleep, etc). Some of these activities generate money, and SOTG does not. So guess which activities gets the highest priority? Also, SOTG does not necessarily help the hosts achieving goals like being a better SC2 player either. I'm not saying you shouldn't complain about free stuff, but just don't complain about things that are limited because of resources like time and money. And don't expect the worlds best audio or video when it is free. PS: The tone of your complaints are also important. This is compltely wrong. SOTG generates a lot of potential income. It should definitely be treated as part of their job. What kind of income? I'll have more questions after this one has been answered.
The potential kind. You know, the kind that you can't really point to, but you are sure you are generating it. I mean, I do it all the time at my job. I research weird laws and rulings on the off chance we might have a case that is related to those weird laws and rulings. Even if I don't use them, I can talk to our clients about them and they will understand that we are well versed in laws they do not care about. When my boss yells at me for not doing work for our paying clients, I just tell him "I'm generating potential income, its part of my job."
Works every time.
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I don't want to be disrespectful but this "revamp" thing sounds like simply stalling to me. The show's format was working great and supposedly the only issue was the pillars' busy schedules. So how is a revamp going to fix this? And even if it's such a significant change, it's obviously not the reason why there aren't any shows at the moment as they've had this issue for three months now.
They should take a break if they need one for whatever reason - but I'd rather have them just say so instead of going for PR-style excuses.
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Can I expect SOTG tonight, this week or next week? EDIT: Ok, 6-8 april
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On March 30 2012 04:34 archonOOid wrote:
Can I expect SOTG tonight, this week or next week?
Look at the OP and then you will know when you will see the next SotG.
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On March 30 2012 04:24 xtfftc wrote:
I don't want to be disrespectful but this "revamp" thing sounds like simply stalling to me. The show's format was working great and supposedly the only issue was the pillars' busy schedules. So how is a revamp going to fix this? And even if it's such a significant change, it's obviously not the reason why there aren't any shows at the moment as they've had this issue for three months now.
They should take a break if they need one for whatever reason - but I'd rather have them just say so instead of going for PR-style excuses.
The issue is that all of the host are busy and only getting more so. They love the show, but they need to justify the time they put into it. Maybe they are getting a sponsor or being hosted by a site(god let it be Giant Bomb. They need an Esports section). Otherwise we will only get shows when they have time and I don't think that is the way everyone wants to go.
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the pointlessness of the arguments in this thread amaze me. the show will happen when it happens. go ladder or something in the meantime.
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On March 30 2012 00:43 riff wrote:
I've stopped watching/listening to the show because it's just not worth my time to figure out when it's on, who's going to be on it, and whether or not any of the hosts will have anything to contribute. They've been very clear about the fact that the show is free and don't want to commit to any particular level of quality. That's all well and good, and I appreciate their contributions up to now, but the lack of commitment, regardless of the business model, is not good for the longterm health of the show. I'm amazed I've stuck with it this long, to be honest. I don't know what has happened recently, but I'm no longer motivated to deal with all the bullshit.
dont let the door hit you on the way out!
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On March 30 2012 02:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 02:12 Zythius wrote:On March 30 2012 00:13 Hider wrote:On March 29 2012 21:48 Zythius wrote:On March 29 2012 21:35 TheSir wrote:On March 29 2012 19:54 RvB wrote:On March 29 2012 19:47 iNcontroL wrote:
we do a public show for free... the shit we as hosts get on a regular basis from people in this thread does not somehow get justified by it "being public."
You want to pay us money? Do it, then you get to bitch when we do stuff you don't like. Up until then you can absolutely bitch and moan but it's a free service so you just look like an ass. So people aren't allowed to voice their concerns over the show because it's free? If you're deciding to create a show you're opening yourself up to both praise and critic you can't realistically expect just to get the upside without the downside. . I dont get that attitude either, if you offer a product or service then it doesn't matter if it's free or paid. I dont care if a product/service is free or not, if i see something i dont like about it, i will say it. If you offer me something for free, it better be good otherwise dont bother and if it's there is no alternative available i will complain the crap out of it. Just because something is for free is not a reason not to criticize something, that's ridiculous. If you dont want any criticism, then dont offer it but for god sake dont bring out the excuse: 'it's free, shut up and be happy about it' cause that just makes you look like a dummy who doesn't takes his customers/members/viewers what ever etc seriously. The hole 'you shouldn't complain when you get something for free' is just such a silly statement, when you have genuine arguments about a free service/product you should complain about it until they fix or change it. About the show, i kinda like SOTG and watch it sometimes on youtube and i dont really care about technical problems like bad audio cause i know there's basically no software to run a perfect podcast (skype + xfire = crap for exmaple) + most guest wont have the equipment to do so and if it's not watchable imo, i just dont watch it. First of all, you are completely wrong when it comes to paid versus free services. If they were to charge money for SOTG they would have more resources to make it better. Time is a limited resource by the way, and SOTG has to compete with other activities the hosts might want to spend time on (work, play, practice, travel, eat, sleep, etc). Some of these activities generate money, and SOTG does not. So guess which activities gets the highest priority? Also, SOTG does not necessarily help the hosts achieving goals like being a better SC2 player either. I'm not saying you shouldn't complain about free stuff, but just don't complain about things that are limited because of resources like time and money. And don't expect the worlds best audio or video when it is free. PS: The tone of your complaints are also important. This is compltely wrong. SOTG generates a lot of potential income. It should definitely be treated as part of their job. What kind of income? I'll have more questions after this one has been answered. The potential kind. You know, the kind that you can't really point to, but you are sure you are generating it. I mean, I do it all the time at my job. I research weird laws and rulings on the off chance we might have a case that is related to those weird laws and rulings. Even if I don't use them, I can talk to our clients about them and they will understand that we are well versed in laws they do not care about. When my boss yells at me for not doing work for our paying clients, I just tell him "I'm generating potential income, its part of my job." Works every time.
Yes, but which potential kind of income. I need some examples.
Anyhow, there probably is some potential economic benefits for those casting SOTG in the long run, but what you need to figure out is the size of these potential benefits. As I've said before, time is limited, and there are a lot of other alternative activities that compete with casting SOTG. Improving their SC2-skills and work seems pretty important to me. They probably also want a social life and some sleep too.
And there is also the small question of liquidity.. There is no point of having all these potential long term incomes in your plans if you go broke today.
Basically what you are saying is: the casters stand to collect so many potential benefits somewhere in time and space, so they should consider that all the payment they'll ever need for casting SOTG? I believe that is wrong.
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I'm not bothered by the irregularities in schedule. As long as the Vods are uploaded eventually. It's a great talk show
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Sigh. The reddit nerds and their unwarranted self-importance / inflated sense of self-entitlement are shitting up the thread again.
Can't you guys be happy that he posted in the OP about kick ass things that are happening at/after PAX East? Maybe he has a sponsor. Maybe he has a kick ass new platform. Maybe a whole lot of shit.
But everyone is ignoring the biggest fact. They're not having a show every week because:
1) They're looking out for the quality of the show. They shouldn't just have a show because they haven't had a show lately. Then everyone will be bitching about the quality.
2) Everyone on the show, being beloved by the community, are super busy doing community shit for you guys. Can we really shit on Artosis for being too busy with GOMTV to be on the podcast those few times? What about Day9, with the Red Bull Lan, MLG, AHGL, and other shit? Nony and Incontrol with their respective teams?
Jesus Christ guys. I went to the latest MLG and it was a blast. But the way some of you are bitching you would complain about the live appearances by the casters. Fuck the fact that they're casting all day, Tastosis have breaks. They should spend those breaks out and about instead of eating/napping/relaxing.
Because holy shit, they owe us something. For what? Well, I dunno. But they owe us something.
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I still liked almost every post-MLG episode more than when they were having a regular show under MLG.
They should just have a show whenever they feel like it, usually that's when we get the best shows anyway. We could have a weekly show, and then 50% of episodes would have 2 hour long predictions of who makes it out of which group or something equally dull.
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EPT
