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I've been noticing less and less pro level Zergs trying to reach that killer flock of mutas in their ZvT's. When they do, it doesn't seem nearly as strong as it used to be. I imagine that their use will continue to decline for a few reasons.
![[image loading]](http://wikicheats.gametrailers.com/images/f/f5/StarCraft_2_Structure_Engineering_Bay.jpg)
Terrans are going for faster bio upgrades and delaying their siege tech longer. This is due in part to Terrans trying to match the double evo upgrades of the ever increasingly popular ling/infestor, but as a byproduct it reduces the effectiveness of mutas even more.
Muta balls slow down Zerg upgrades as well as delaying their hive tech. It's not uncommon to see 3/3 marines vs 1/1 or 2/1 lings with barely upgraded mutas. Take Zenio vs MMA last season in code S, there was a game where MMA was 3/2 bio vs Zenio's 1/1 lings and 1/0 mutas. And what about DRG the current king of Zerg in last seasons code S semi-finals?
![[image loading]](http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/DRGvsGumihoupgrades.jpg)
Yep, he falls victim to the same thing (he lost that game). At that point you start losing mutas left and right to the most common of 8 marine medivac drops, and they'll flat out disintegrate vs a bio ball without a ton of support.
![[image loading]](http://thesavvygamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/baneling.jpg)
Banelings are a critical part of using mutalisks, but top tier Terran micro is disgusting. Using banelings against a T who knows how to split and focus fire tanks is incredibly inefficient, especially off creep.
It's also important to note that more macro centric builds are getting increasingly more popular for T. I could even say that an early third for Terran is fairly common. When you start trading inefficiently against a Terran who knows how to keep up in economy, it puts you in a very bad position.
At the moment I'm watching Idra's stream and every single ZvT he's been playing lately has been ling/infestor. Even Idra the king of stubbornness in his 2 base muta play is changing his style around.
I don't see any way around the problems facing mutalisk play, do you?
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Mutalisks don't belong off 2base lair builds in ZvT. I actually think they have a use later in the game even if you've gone infestor - If you end up at ling/infestor/ultra, it's okay to go mutalisks.
But classical muta/ing/baneling is so hard countered by the most standard of terran play, A lot of high tier zergs just like it because of the micro potential but honestly, it relies on your opponent making mistakes which they should never make.
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It would make me really sad if the mutalisk is phased out in ZvT. It gives such dynamic and harass-based matches, watching DRG manage to squeeze himself between turrets and sniping medivacs is beautiful.
Infestors are nice too but it's more stating and boring imo.
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I used to play 2 base muta style, but recently I've been having so much trouble against macro oriented terran builds that I've switched to infestor style, which I haven't used since months. I think muta can still be viable in the match-up, but it will require a much faster third base imo.
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If people split their banelings, they might be more effective. Not even in the GSL (as far as I've seen) has anyone ever split their banelings to avoid splash from tanks and collosus. I think if they did that, they could do the same damage with less banelings, and use the extra gas to get mutas.
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I tend to make my spire very late, sometimes even after my third is getting saturated (about 13-14 minute muta), on the ground I get roach/bling/ling to defend, I only get mutas when i have a breathing room to. I am trying to tech to hive as soon as possible after 75 drones to get BLs so I can start pushing terran. I used to get a lot of infestors midgame but now I don't like the fact that a good terran can just drop you all day because you have 0 air control. I found myself very difficult to survive midgame drops with infestors.
Oh by the way, I do get +2melee/+2carapace/roach speed/bling speed before getting spire
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On March 16 2012 08:29 lhr0909 wrote:
I tend to make my spire very late, sometimes even after my third is getting saturated (about 13-14 minute muta), on the ground I get roach/bling/ling to defend, I only get mutas when i have a breathing room to. I am trying to tech to hive as soon as possible after 75 drones to get BLs so I can start pushing terran. I used to get a lot of infestors midgame but now I don't like the fact that a good terran can just drop you all day because you have 0 air control. I found myself very difficult to survive midgame drops with infestors.
Oh by the way, I do get +2melee/+2carapace/roach speed/bling speed before getting spire
If you're getting 2/2 and hive, then why even bother to make mutas? Is it only for defending drops? With proper multi-task and overlord spread it's certainly feasible to deal with drops without mutas.
The thread was more directed at the trends in pro level play.
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I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
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I think it's more of a timing thing. Recent top level tournaments have featured many players using infestor-ling openings against terran perhaps making it look more common than it really is.
However, of the three I saw (Stephano, Losira...and someone else who's name is escaping me) it didn't seem to perform that well. I think that overall, mutas in TvZ are a better choice simply for the pressure they put on rapidly expanding terrans and such.
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My ZvT has taken a bit of a nosedive lately (I'm still a muta/ling/bling player) as Terran marine upgrades are just so strong. But I still really dislike ling/infestor style vs Terran as I feel it leaves you WAY too open to drops, and its only a matter of time before Terrans start abusing the crap out of that fact.
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On March 16 2012 08:26 jrkirby wrote:
If people split their banelings, they might be more effective. Not even in the GSL (as far as I've seen) has anyone ever split their banelings to avoid splash from tanks and collosus. I think if they did that, they could do the same damage with less banelings, and use the extra gas to get mutas.
If people individually fired banelings with tanks, then you'd need less tanks, and could use extra gas to get more medivacs.
Possible, but highly unrealistic seeing as it is so difficult to split banelings while micro'ing ten other things, similar to how you would never individually target separate lings or banelings with each tank.
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It's also much more common to get couple thors with your biomech ball than 6months ago.
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Mutalisk play is just so damn fragile, fly them over a bunch of marines intercepting? Gamelosing moment. Terran maxes out? Oh snap son all those mutas kept you at lair tech forever, gl hf killing that army bro. Terran adds a single thor to his marine/tank push? Now those mutas are dead supply since you can't stack up and snipe tanks anymore.
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Mutalisks are definitely going out of style and I think it's just because of the relative "ease" of using infestors, since you can fight the terran army head on and you don't have to constantly be harassing/defending drops with mutalisks. On the other hand, I feel that going infestors means you have less of a grasp on the pace of the game, and you kind of play passively until you can get units that you can actually attack siege lines with.
All in all, I still stick to mutas just because I'm more comfortable using them and can micro pretty well. Although, on certain maps, ling/infestor is the way to go and I really ought to develop that style.
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If I go Muta/Ling/Bane, I only get around 10-14 mutas no ups (solely for drop defense), while keeping up with upgrades and then teching to Infestors. Huge muta flock in current state of the game is just so hard to get to with Terrans rushing ups.
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upgrades are a bit to strong in sc2, compared to staying low on upgrades and do damage. Its just easier to upgrade and there is only a small window for tactics involving delaying upgrades. I think Blizzard should balance a bit around there, to add some variety.
As for muta play, always disliked that its an option to mass a harassment unit and win a straight up fight. So personally i never used them that way and just kept my small muta team to snipe tanks and medivacs and see no problem with it. The problem is more that zerg forgot again that upgrades are extremely important in sc2 and cut corners at the wrong spots.
Like terrans got reaped shortly after the upgrade buff for toss, because double forge became popular again, while 1 ebay was common. Zerg can probably work the longest with being behind on upgrades, but at pro level units life just way longer and so upgrades help more, so zergs will have to adapt there. (like terrans have adapted to zerg playstyle)
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It's all map dependent. The current trends of maps are very anti-muta, possibly for ZvP reasons, but mainly because of 2 base all in reasons. Hence, lots of chokes and easy 3 bases.
If Taldarim style maps return in force, you will see mutas... a lot. If maps like Antiga continue to roll out, I cant see mutas staying around. Terran macro builds are literally amazing on that map, and super safe too.
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I think mutas are best used in ZvP. Terran has wwwaaayyy to much amazing and easily upgradeable anti air at their disposal, you have marines, very high dps, can stim, be healed by medivacs, turrets which can be upgraded and repaired, and thors where 1 shot off is worse than a storm because you can at least move out of a storm before full damage has been done onto you. Stephano's ling/infestor style is the way to go it seems.
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On March 16 2012 08:39 danl9rm wrote:
I said it months ago and I'll say it now. If you go mutas in ZvT you have to douple-up them. That means 2 spires and get to 3/3. Mutas aren't going anywhere in ZvT. If the pros aren't using them now, it's because they aren't getting double upgrades. Quote me all day, I beg you.
If they die, they'll make a resurgence, and it'll come with 2 spires.
I'll quote you all day. The number of times I've seen 1/0 mutas get lunched by 3/3 marines is unreal. The thing I do have to wonder though is that in the final of GSL november we saw leenock go double spire in that game on tal'darim. So the pros have known about it for a long time. I struggle to believe it hasn't been tested in practice, so the only explanation I can find for it not catching on is that zergs have found it less effective than going down a different route entirely. Seems a shame really as getting fast 3/3 air always sounded like a good set up for broodlords.
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This is one of the reasons I got so annoyed with the muta nerf in ZvP.
Mutalisks are a dying unit in SC2
They have already become useless in ZvT, they have failed finding use in ZvZ, and now, they are basically worthless in ZvP.
I made the suggestion before the nerf, and plenty were quick to laugh at the absurdity of my statement, but I am happy to restate the same exact thing.
Mutas were never known for their unrivaled power, otherwise we would see them dominating all match-ups. Rather, the very reason they were so hated by Protoss is the reason why they are bad units in general.
Mutas don't deliver.
While Mutalisks can be good momentarily, in high-level SC2, they do not offer a way to seal a game... More often, by choosing to go muta, the Zerg player is commiting himself to a very weak midgame army and hoping to win through an unchecked mass expansion followup or a bad base trade for his opponent.
Mutalisks should have been buffed, not nerfed. They are quickly losing viability in general, essentially leaving Zerg with the fewest viable units in any matchup. zerglings and roaches are now making up at least 90% of every Zerg army in all matchups and this trend has no signs of slowing down.
Thanks Blizzard for boxing me in to ling/roach in all MUs, that's what makes for interesting games.
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EPT
