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On December 07 2011 15:50 Techno wrote:
Artosis is quickly losing any streed cred he had with me.
Mech is shit, man!
He definetely is on this particular case. He even said that he doesn't know what to do when he is up against it, what a joke! We all know he is just bad!
Incontrol has been right from the start, if its any good why noone is doing it after 1,5 years? It's simply because it's shit, and no 1 win as someone said (was it jjaki) is no evidence, that protoss player could just be unprepared.
The facts are that Terran mech has been nerfed again and again, the Thor's energy nerf along with the BFH nerf and the ghost emp radious nerf mean you have no answer to immortals. Added to that is the warp prism usage which has has made it very difficult to defend without a fast army and you have the picture why mech is almost never been used - it's crap!
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On December 07 2011 15:50 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:36 IMoperator wrote:On December 07 2011 15:35 gogatorsfoster wrote:
I have to agree with Day9 and Artosis. Mech is harder to do. But it could be stronger and win a higher percentage of games. Incontrol is not making the most sense to me :\. I disagree with mech being harder... mech tvt and tvz is definitely easier than marine/tank or bio. I dont know how you can say that, in TvT specifically. The most harass you can pull off is helion drops. And bio actually tears up mech pretty well. Marauders with a good flank can really mess up tanks. Mech is harder in the fact that one mistake will lose you the game. Maybe you don't have to micro as hard, but the decisions you make and the unit movement is much harder, and more important. Mech vs zerg is also hard for me to pull off, because I don't know what to do vs mass roach drops all over the place; also if you move out too early the zerg can sometimes kill you, but if you don`t push out their economy becomes huge.
After playing with both bio and mech tvt, I'd say mech is definitely easier. People often exaggerate the lack of mobility with mech. Hellions + vikings will shut down most drops pretty quickly actually. As long as you don't unsiege all at once, you can win most battles and once you get to lategame the bio player can never engage without losing their whole army.
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On December 07 2011 15:57 VanGarde wrote:
This is why so many people do not improve at Starcraft 2, it is much easier to just make statements on the internet and declare this and that impossible. I am a bit surprised that so many people here are so arrogant as to think that there is nothing more to figure out in this game. I mean, before the infestor patch no one ever made infestors, then they nerfed them and I bet you even if they nerfed them back to the old style infestor they would be used still cause zergs figured out how to use them.
The same goes for mech in TvT, hell that did not even take a patch. No one, NO ONE, not even the pro's used mech in TvT for pretty much the entire life span of Sc2. I guess a week before the koreans started meching anyone could had used the same arguments that are being flung around here right now. "if pro's are not meching in tvt then it can't be good" etc. Yet over night, people figured out how to mech in TvT and suddenly it was so strong that blizzard actually had to patch the hellion to make marines more durable against them.
Don't come here and say that there is no way to make mech work in TvP.
Has it crossed your mind that many good players have tried mech in TvP and it didn't work out for them?
Saying that noone is doing it does not mean noone has tried to do it, but i guess we could all keep our fingers crossed if we really want for whatever reason to think that someone will eventually do and this crap matchup will eventually completely change...
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On December 07 2011 15:58 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:50 gogatorsfoster wrote:On December 07 2011 15:36 IMoperator wrote:On December 07 2011 15:35 gogatorsfoster wrote:
I have to agree with Day9 and Artosis. Mech is harder to do. But it could be stronger and win a higher percentage of games. Incontrol is not making the most sense to me :\. I disagree with mech being harder... mech tvt and tvz is definitely easier than marine/tank or bio. I dont know how you can say that, in TvT specifically. The most harass you can pull off is helion drops. And bio actually tears up mech pretty well. Marauders with a good flank can really mess up tanks. Mech is harder in the fact that one mistake will lose you the game. Maybe you don't have to micro as hard, but the decisions you make and the unit movement is much harder, and more important. Mech vs zerg is also hard for me to pull off, because I don't know what to do vs mass roach drops all over the place; also if you move out too early the zerg can sometimes kill you, but if you don`t push out their economy becomes huge. After playing with both bio and mech tvt, I'd say mech is definitely easier. People often exaggerate the lack of mobility with mech. Hellions + vikings will shut down most drops pretty quickly actually. As long as you don't unsiege all at once, you can win most battles and once you get to lategame the bio player can never engage without losing their whole army.
Most professional players including the biowhore Polt himself, say Mech is a lot harder in tvt.
TvZ, mech is easier I would've thought, probably why Mvp plays it himself as it's less APM intensive on his wrists.
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There's pretty much 0 reason to go Mech when you have no spacial control as Terran to allow positional play. The reason why it worked in BW is due to the presence of Spider Mines combined with Missile Turrets/Tanks/Goliaths.
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I just sent this PM to incontrol, it's basically why Mech doesn't work:
Hey Incontrol!
I'm a mid master terran player and used to go mech in all my tvp matches. My win rate was like 20% with Mech so I then decided to play bio and it now is around 60-75%.
I have alot of experience with mech in tvp (around 200 games) and I know I'm not a high level player but even at my skill level, protoss players are good enough to exploit the weaknesses of mech.
First of all.
Blink Stalkers - They absolute destroy mech, in combination with observers they can just blink into your main and it's impossible to spread your tanks out well enough to defend 3 bases vs. Blink stalkers. I am sure you know what I mean.
Warp prism - Like you said, even with sensor towers, tanks are absolutely immobile. You can't spread out your tanks or even unsiege them at any point because an unsieged mech army is simply awful. with blink stalker in combination with warp prism harrass mech simply gets destroyed
Open maps - Most maps nowadays are extremely open, you can never get a 4th base up, I tried it but you don't have enough units to defend all bases, it is actually impossible.
Chargelots - Hellions are actually really bad against chargelots, you can even go to the unit test maps and try it, as soon as chargelots close in tanks kill your own hellions before they kills the zealots.
Warp gate - if you trade chargelots vs. tank/hellion, you can then simply warp in stalkers to clean up banshees and ravens. the big advantage of protoss is that they can tech switch immediately, if you kill the ground army you can then warp in enough units to kill the air units of the terran. you could go 100% anti ground and trade vs. a terran army with vikings, banshees, tanks and hellions and then go 100% stalker to clean up the air units. No chance for terran to beat this.
Phoenix/Carrier - it's actually impossible to beat with mech, vikings get annihilated by mass phoenixes and carriers kill everything else, if you simply magicbox phoenixes thors won't do anything and thors take up so much simply you simply won't have many of them anyway.
upgrades - protoss already can go double forge and be on 3/3 when terran gets 2/2 with bio. with mech you are even slower in upgrades, it'standard to be 1/1 when the protoss is 3/3.
losing army - once you lose a mech army, you are simply dead.
these are all the point i could think of right now, please make sure artosis reads this because I actually tried so hard to make mech work but it gets hard countered by the protoss army.
thanks and love you (artosis sucks jk) <3
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On December 07 2011 15:57 VanGarde wrote:
The same goes for mech in TvT, hell that did not even take a patch. No one, NO ONE, not even the pro's used mech in TvT for pretty much the entire life span of Sc2.
Mech TvT's been around for ages, what are you talking about? It was pretty much the starting point for many ex-BW Terrans and has always been an option
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On December 07 2011 16:01 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:58 IMoperator wrote:On December 07 2011 15:50 gogatorsfoster wrote:On December 07 2011 15:36 IMoperator wrote:On December 07 2011 15:35 gogatorsfoster wrote:
I have to agree with Day9 and Artosis. Mech is harder to do. But it could be stronger and win a higher percentage of games. Incontrol is not making the most sense to me :\. I disagree with mech being harder... mech tvt and tvz is definitely easier than marine/tank or bio. I dont know how you can say that, in TvT specifically. The most harass you can pull off is helion drops. And bio actually tears up mech pretty well. Marauders with a good flank can really mess up tanks. Mech is harder in the fact that one mistake will lose you the game. Maybe you don't have to micro as hard, but the decisions you make and the unit movement is much harder, and more important. Mech vs zerg is also hard for me to pull off, because I don't know what to do vs mass roach drops all over the place; also if you move out too early the zerg can sometimes kill you, but if you don`t push out their economy becomes huge. After playing with both bio and mech tvt, I'd say mech is definitely easier. People often exaggerate the lack of mobility with mech. Hellions + vikings will shut down most drops pretty quickly actually. As long as you don't unsiege all at once, you can win most battles and once you get to lategame the bio player can never engage without losing their whole army. Most professional players including the biowhore Polt himself, say Mech is a lot harder in tvt. TvZ, mech is easier I would've thought, probably why Mvp plays it himself as it's less APM intensive on his wrists. At a certain level I could see why people think mech is easier. People really clump up their units a lot without spreading a lot, and they just don't understand how to be aggressive against a turtle type player. But I think if you asked pro gamers they would agree.
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On December 07 2011 16:01 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:57 VanGarde wrote:
The same goes for mech in TvT, hell that did not even take a patch. No one, NO ONE, not even the pro's used mech in TvT for pretty much the entire life span of Sc2. Mech TvT's been around for ages, what are you talking about? It was pretty much the starting point for many ex-BW Terrans and has always been an option
You never ever saw pure mech in any tournaments in TvT. There was a pure tank/hellion phase which ended with the tank nerf but that is not quite meching really. And then there was an infinite reign of tank/marine. Yeah there were people who meched in TvT just like there are people who mech in TvP now. But no one did so with tournament success and it was not a main stream build.
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On December 07 2011 16:01 drax2000 wrote:I just sent this PM to incontrol, it's basically why Mech doesn't work: Show nested quote +Hey Incontrol!
I'm a mid master terran player and used to go mech in all my tvp matches. My win rate was like 20% with Mech so I then decided to play bio and it now is around 60-75%.
I have alot of experience with mech in tvp (around 200 games) and I know I'm not a high level player but even at my skill level, protoss players are good enough to exploit the weaknesses of mech.
First of all.
Blink Stalkers - They absolute destroy mech, in combination with observers they can just blink into your main and it's impossible to spread your tanks out well enough to defend 3 bases vs. Blink stalkers. I am sure you know what I mean.
Warp prism - Like you said, even with sensor towers, tanks are absolutely immobile. You can't spread out your tanks or even unsiege them at any point because an unsieged mech army is simply awful. with blink stalker in combination with warp prism harrass mech simply gets destroyed
Open maps - Most maps nowadays are extremely open, you can never get a 4th base up, I tried it but you don't have enough units to defend all bases, it is actually impossible.
Chargelots - Hellions are actually really bad against chargelots, you can even go to the unit test maps and try it, as soon as chargelots close in tanks kill your own hellions before they kills the zealots.
Warp gate - if you trade chargelots vs. tank/hellion, you can then simply warp in stalkers to clean up banshees and ravens. the big advantage of protoss is that they can tech switch immediately, if you kill the ground army you can then warp in enough units to kill the air units of the terran. you could go 100% anti ground and trade vs. a terran army with vikings, banshees, tanks and hellions and then go 100% stalker to clean up the air units. No chance for terran to beat this.
Phoenix/Carrier - it's actually impossible to beat with mech, vikings get annihilated by mass phoenixes and carriers kill everything else, if you simply magicbox phoenixes thors won't do anything and thors take up so much simply you simply won't have many of them anyway.
upgrades - protoss already can go double forge and be on 3/3 when terran gets 2/2 with bio. with mech you are even slower in upgrades, it'standard to be 1/1 when the protoss is 3/3.
losing army - once you lose a mech army, you are simply dead.
these are all the point i could think of right now, please make sure artosis reads this because I actually tried so hard to make mech work but it gets hard countered by the protoss army.
thanks and love you (artosis sucks jk) <3
Why would you PM him that? He agreed that Mech doesnt work lol. Those are exactly the reason why he said mech doesnt work. He didnt note everything that wrong with mech but I am pretty sure he knows
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Um, why does anyone want eSports journalism? Isn't it just paparazzi trash stuff? Do you guys actually care about the personal lives of your football or hockey stars? Do we really need someone getting in Geoff's face asking him if dating Anna is why he can't win at tournaments? I don't think so.
I think what we have now is fine. We get to see players play games, and we might get an occasional guest casting or interview.
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On December 07 2011 16:05 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 16:01 Scarecrow wrote:On December 07 2011 15:57 VanGarde wrote:
The same goes for mech in TvT, hell that did not even take a patch. No one, NO ONE, not even the pro's used mech in TvT for pretty much the entire life span of Sc2. Mech TvT's been around for ages, what are you talking about? It was pretty much the starting point for many ex-BW Terrans and has always been an option You never ever saw pure mech in any tournaments in TvT. There was a pure tank/hellion phase which ended with the tank nerf but that is not quite meching really. And then there was an infinite reign of tank/marine. Yeah there were people who meched in TvT just like there are people who mech in TvP now. But no one did so with tournament success and it was not a main stream build.
Pure tank hellion is by definition meching -.- and that's what I was talking about.
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Did JP say I was harassing him about the MLG-ESL partnership?
Look, all I did was call into Fuck Slasher and ask about it. I was then later banned in the chat by JP for asking more about it since I wasn't even able to ask Slasher about it without being hung up on. Then, I came to TL and made an innocent thread about it and I haven't done anything else.
Please, JP, I like you, but don't make shit up. It's simply disrespectful and unprofessional. Thank you and thank you for the show.
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On December 07 2011 16:00 nvrs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:57 VanGarde wrote:
This is why so many people do not improve at Starcraft 2, it is much easier to just make statements on the internet and declare this and that impossible. I am a bit surprised that so many people here are so arrogant as to think that there is nothing more to figure out in this game. I mean, before the infestor patch no one ever made infestors, then they nerfed them and I bet you even if they nerfed them back to the old style infestor they would be used still cause zergs figured out how to use them.
The same goes for mech in TvT, hell that did not even take a patch. No one, NO ONE, not even the pro's used mech in TvT for pretty much the entire life span of Sc2. I guess a week before the koreans started meching anyone could had used the same arguments that are being flung around here right now. "if pro's are not meching in tvt then it can't be good" etc. Yet over night, people figured out how to mech in TvT and suddenly it was so strong that blizzard actually had to patch the hellion to make marines more durable against them.
Don't come here and say that there is no way to make mech work in TvP. Has it crossed your mind that many good players have tried mech in TvP and it didn't work out for them? Saying that noone is doing it does not mean noone has tried to do it, but i guess we could all keep our fingers crossed if we really want for whatever reason to think that someone will eventually do and this crap matchup will eventually completely change...
They may very well have, ofcourse my argument is that incontrol and all of you trolls are wasting time stroking your own ego's turning this into a simple black and white question of "is mech viable?" "NO!". End of story. Personally I could not care less about who is right, I am interested in if it is possible and I think it is quite rash and stupid to just assume right now that everything has been tried, it is impossible. I don't even know why people get so emotional about it that they have to somehow prove right now that mech is not viable just to win an argument. But again that is what I meant with saying that this is why so many don't improve at Sc2. When your mindset is to just argue whether or something is possible or not, rather than trying to figure new stuff and identifying the problems and if there are solutions to those problems.
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On December 07 2011 16:07 BasilForSkin wrote:
Did JP say I was harassing him about the MLG-ESL partnership?
Look, all I did was call into Fuck Slasher and ask about it. I was then later banned in the chat by JP for asking more about it in the chat since I wasn't even able to ask Slasher about it without being hung up on before I could say anything. Then, I came to TL and made an innocent thread about it and I haven't done anything else.
Please, JP, I like you, but don't make shit up. It's simply disrespectful and unprofessional. Thank you and thank you for the show.
No
He said someone claimed that JP had told him about the partnership, and that was just made up bullshit.
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On December 07 2011 16:07 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 16:05 VanGarde wrote:On December 07 2011 16:01 Scarecrow wrote:On December 07 2011 15:57 VanGarde wrote:
The same goes for mech in TvT, hell that did not even take a patch. No one, NO ONE, not even the pro's used mech in TvT for pretty much the entire life span of Sc2. Mech TvT's been around for ages, what are you talking about? It was pretty much the starting point for many ex-BW Terrans and has always been an option You never ever saw pure mech in any tournaments in TvT. There was a pure tank/hellion phase which ended with the tank nerf but that is not quite meching really. And then there was an infinite reign of tank/marine. Yeah there were people who meched in TvT just like there are people who mech in TvP now. But no one did so with tournament success and it was not a main stream build. Pure tank hellion is by definition meching -.- and that's what I was talking about.
And you never saw tank/hellion in any tournaments before that huge switch when the koreans started doing it in the gsl. Don't go make shit up now there was no real meching to talk about in TvT before that on a competitive level. It was Goody and that was it. Everyone else was going bio/tank.
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On December 07 2011 16:08 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 16:07 BasilForSkin wrote:
Did JP say I was harassing him about the MLG-ESL partnership?
Look, all I did was call into Fuck Slasher and ask about it. I was then later banned in the chat by JP for asking more about it in the chat since I wasn't even able to ask Slasher about it without being hung up on before I could say anything. Then, I came to TL and made an innocent thread about it and I haven't done anything else.
Please, JP, I like you, but don't make shit up. It's simply disrespectful and unprofessional. Thank you and thank you for the show. No He said someone claimed that JP had told him about the partnership, and that was just made up bullshit.
Well, I don't want there to be any mix up because I didn't say that.
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Best episode in a while.
Especially the discussion about journalism, interesting stuff.
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OMG please drunken call ins, that would be amazing
Some of the old guests coming would be nice, but drunken call ins must take priority :D
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For the journalism question..
Why can't people that don't have any affiliation with teams or players or anyone in the community do the job? Is the big hurdle that they don't have any way to get interviews with players? Or they can't get repeat access?
I just don't really see the root of the problem. I understand why the people who are already involved can't do it, but lets just say for instance that I wanted to do this job. Why can't I host a show with someone else interested on this topic to discuss what's going on a weekly basis in SC, discuss the latest community topics, and then round it out with a self-made story from a personal interview or a manager interview, etc?
Are you guys saying that no one has done this or can do this because they can't ask the right questions without getting turned away for future interviews? Or you won't pay attention to this stuff because you don't know who the person is?
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EPT
