On October 01 2011 04:14 Kilby wrote: That I actually agree with. If the goal is to know the clicking speed/finger speed and the total actions (whatever they might be) a minute then the absolute raw APM is the way to go. But I guess in that case it should also be decided if to use the "Blizzard minute" or the IRL minute.
Personally I'm just not that interested in how fast a player can click or move their fingers. I'm more interested in how fast and well they can actually play.
You keep bringing yourself into this.
I don't understand. Please explain? You do realise what a discussion forum means, right?
A lot of your arguments revolves around the fact that "APM spamming is terrible" and therefore the measurement of APM is terrible because it allows APM spamming to be included.
Sort of, yes. If the purpose of APM is to find out how fast a player plays then APM should measure how quickly he can do things. In this, all redundant actions should be excluded as they are irrelevant. On the other hand, if the purpose of APM is to find out how fast fingers the player has (admittedly also a useful factor) then the raw measuring is preferred. The raw APM is perfectly OK as long as people don't confuse it with fast play. But since they often do, a smarter "APM" might be better in general.
On October 01 2011 04:14 Kilby wrote: That I actually agree with. If the goal is to know the clicking speed/finger speed and the total actions (whatever they might be) a minute then the absolute raw APM is the way to go. But I guess in that case it should also be decided if to use the "Blizzard minute" or the IRL minute.
Personally I'm just not that interested in how fast a player can click or move their fingers. I'm more interested in how fast and well they can actually play.
You keep bringing yourself into this.
I don't understand. Please explain? You do realise what a discussion forum means, right?
A lot of your arguments revolves around the fact that "APM spamming is terrible" and therefore the measurement of APM is terrible because it allows APM spamming to be included.
Sort of, yes. If the purpose of APM is to find out how fast a player plays then APM should measure how quickly he can do things. In this, all redundant actions should be excluded as they are irrelevant. On the other hand, if the purpose of APM is to find out how fast fingers the player has (admittedly also a useful factor) then the raw measuring is preferred. The raw APM is perfectly OK as long as people don't confuse it with fast play. But since they often do, a smarter "APM" might be better in general.
Or you can stop caring about what other people think and not do anything to change APM!
On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote: I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast as me. In fact he is not three times as fast as me, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
There's no wiggle room on how APM is calculated. It's misleading to not include all actions, or to not do it over a time period of a minute. If people want to create another measure, then they can create another measure, and we expressed our support for that when the originator of APM coded EAPM (effective actions per minute). But when they make that new measure, they need to give it an accurate name. They can't call it APM. I have no idea why anyone wants APM usurped. Make new terms for describing new things. Leave APM alone!!!
That I actually agree with. If the goal is to know the clicking speed/finger speed and the total actions (whatever they might be) a minute then the absolute raw APM is the way to go. But I guess in that case it should also be decided if to use the "Blizzard minute" or the IRL minute.
Personally I'm just not that interested in how fast a player can click or move their fingers. I'm more interested in how fast and well they can actually play.
You're missing the point. It's not "absolute raw APM". That is exactly what APM is. Precisely the definition. There is no "raw" or " absolute" APM. There is APM, and there is non-APM. Blizzard made non-APM.
Well, as I mentioned it just all comes back to the definition of an action. What an action actually is and if the same action twice should be counted as one action or two
Don't see what there is to define. One action = one action. Two actions = two actions, even if one is redundant and since what we want to count is the actions, it should be two. I can totally understand why someone would want to only count effective actions, but then it's no longer APM. As said before, call that something else.
On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote: I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast as me. In fact he is not three times as fast as me, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
There's no wiggle room on how APM is calculated. It's misleading to not include all actions, or to not do it over a time period of a minute. If people want to create another measure, then they can create another measure, and we expressed our support for that when the originator of APM coded EAPM (effective actions per minute). But when they make that new measure, they need to give it an accurate name. They can't call it APM. I have no idea why anyone wants APM usurped. Make new terms for describing new things. Leave APM alone!!!
That I actually agree with. If the goal is to know the clicking speed/finger speed and the total actions (whatever they might be) a minute then the absolute raw APM is the way to go. But I guess in that case it should also be decided if to use the "Blizzard minute" or the IRL minute.
Personally I'm just not that interested in how fast a player can click or move their fingers. I'm more interested in how fast and well they can actually play.
You're missing the point. It's not "absolute raw APM". That is exactly what APM is. Precisely the definition. There is no "raw" or " absolute" APM. There is APM, and there is non-APM. Blizzard made non-APM.
Well, as I mentioned it just all comes back to the definition of an action. What an action actually is and if the same action twice should be counted as one action or two
Don't see what there is to define. One action = one action. Two actions = two actions, even if one is redundant and since what we want to count is the actions, it should be two. I can totally understand why someone would want to only count effective actions, but then it's no longer APM. As said before, call that something else.
Yep, I for one would personally be very interested in seeing what the actual effective APM would be for each pro player no matter their raw APM. If the spam would be exluded it would actually show us the actual speed at which each player plays the game and would give a new perspective to the whole thing. I think Day9 even mentioned in the latest SOTG that Jaedong had like 200 effective APM, which is absolutely insane.
On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote: I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast as me. In fact he is not three times as fast as me, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
There's no wiggle room on how APM is calculated. It's misleading to not include all actions, or to not do it over a time period of a minute. If people want to create another measure, then they can create another measure, and we expressed our support for that when the originator of APM coded EAPM (effective actions per minute). But when they make that new measure, they need to give it an accurate name. They can't call it APM. I have no idea why anyone wants APM usurped. Make new terms for describing new things. Leave APM alone!!!
That I actually agree with. If the goal is to know the clicking speed/finger speed and the total actions (whatever they might be) a minute then the absolute raw APM is the way to go. But I guess in that case it should also be decided if to use the "Blizzard minute" or the IRL minute.
Personally I'm just not that interested in how fast a player can click or move their fingers. I'm more interested in how fast and well they can actually play.
You're missing the point. It's not "absolute raw APM". That is exactly what APM is. Precisely the definition. There is no "raw" or " absolute" APM. There is APM, and there is non-APM. Blizzard made non-APM.
Well, as I mentioned it just all comes back to the definition of an action. What an action actually is and if the same action twice should be counted as one action or two
Don't see what there is to define. One action = one action. Two actions = two actions, even if one is redundant and since what we want to count is the actions, it should be two. I can totally understand why someone would want to only count effective actions, but then it's no longer APM. As said before, call that something else.
Yep, I for one would personally be very interested in seeing what the actual effective APM would be for each pro player no matter their raw APM. If the spam would be exluded it would actually show us the actual speed at which each player plays the game and would give a new perspective to the whole thing. I think Day9 even mentioned in the latest SOTG that Jaedong had like 200 effective APM, which is absolutely insane.
Stop saying RAW APM! It is APM and Effective APM. Good god. And what Blizzard shows is WBCEAPBM (What Blizzard Considers Effective Actions Per Blizzard Minute)
On September 30 2011 07:33 itmeJP wrote: VOD will be up in 5 parts on MLG.tv by tomorrow evening -- possibly sooner. New method obviously failed horribly, going to go back to the drawing board. No, I can't turn on JTV VODs. No, I can't upload it to blip.
he said tomorrow evening (which is today evening now) so stick tight
hmpf still cant find the vod =( i cant fault really fault JP for trying something new. but as part of mlg i think he should have known better then not to have (limited) redundancies imo.
The reason that Blizzard completely removed APM and turned it into EAPM is it appeal to slow casuals.
Just like a million and one other lame Blizzard changes.
Wududup no W:L below Masters.
Well it's not even really EAPM. It's just a weird system tht counts some actions but not others. Tapping is not counted, but clicking one spot a million times is counted, making pretty much everyone having the same APM. If Blizzard really wanted to appeal to the newbies, they could've just made all actions count, (isn't tht wat APM is suppose to mean) so everyone's APM is higher.
Yep, I for one would personally be very interested in seeing what the actual effective APM would be for each pro player no matter their raw APM. If the spam would be exluded it would actually show us the actual speed at which each player plays the game and would give a new perspective to the whole thing. I think Day9 even mentioned in the latest SOTG that Jaedong had like 200 effective APM, which is absolutely insane.
The thing is what do you consider spam? As has been pointed out actions that could be considered spam has an actual purpose just not a specific in game action of a purpose. Someone pointed out that someone scrolling through their hotkeys are not just spamming they're checking their production constantly so that they can be building constantly.
Yep, I for one would personally be very interested in seeing what the actual effective APM would be for each pro player no matter their raw APM. If the spam would be exluded it would actually show us the actual speed at which each player plays the game and would give a new perspective to the whole thing. I think Day9 even mentioned in the latest SOTG that Jaedong had like 200 effective APM, which is absolutely insane.
Stop saying RAW APM! It is APM and Effective APM. Good god. And what Blizzard shows is WBCEAPBM (What Blizzard Considers Effective Actions Per Blizzard Minute)
Okay, firstly, by 'raw' APM, he is taking into account the amount of spamming currently employed in the game.... which is, quite high..... In lower level play, the difference between APM and Effective APM, is greatly different.... as they tend to APM spam with no meaning.... at higher levels, the spam becomes less mindless, and more of a constant check...... Secondly, Kilby never mentioned blizzard.... and as such your blizzard reference wasn't needed.... what they have employed is more of a 'Inconstant APM', measuring the amount of different actions the player employs per minute, which differ from the last action.... albeit, blizzard lumping all of the hot-keys in 1 group, (so 1-9 if pressed one after another, count as 1 action), and making each click of the same command count as multiple actions, (issuing an A-move order, then without changing control groups, immediately issuing the same order again count as 2 actions), is wrong... but that's what they are trying to do.... What they now need to do, is make each hot-key a different action, and to create multiple issues of the same command in a row, 1 action, this will create the E-APM so many people are talking about, closer to the truth of what people want.... although, E-APM can never be measured by anybody other than the player, as the player may cycle through the hot-keys for no reason other than its what he is used to doing... and the spectator will think, "well, he is checking production and unit placement." when in realism, he is just acting on muscle memory and habits....
On October 01 2011 14:10 JJ! wrote: ok cool so where is it? :X
1st post of this thread (OP). There's a huge link "SotG EP51 (MP3, VOD Wednesday morning)" there. Then click the "SotG - EP51" and you'll get to the MP3.
On October 01 2011 14:10 JJ! wrote: ok cool so where is it? :X
1st post of this thread (OP). There's a huge link "SotG EP51 (MP3, VOD Wednesday morning)" there. Then click the "SotG - EP51" and you'll get to the MP3.
I think he meant the VOD, the mp3 has been up for a few days now.
EPT
