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On September 30 2011 23:48 Tachion wrote:
I miss the days when SOTG had pro players as guests. The last time they did that was what, like 20+ episodes ago? Stand-in's for pillars that don't show doesn't count. Just gets some fresh opinions and interactions in the show that I'm not used to.
Technically it was two episodes ago, with Destiny, granted towards the end of the show.
However the show before that they had Demuslim on. So yeah.
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I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast as me. In fact he is not three times as fast as me, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
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On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times, that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast. In fact he is not three times as fast, and everyone whoe says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
They did ruin in game apm measurement, the gstl last night, they showed the apm team, and genius was at 34. lmao
It makes the measurements totally weird, and it really doesn't make any sense, there was nothing wrong with how the apm was before.
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On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times, that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast. In fact he is not three times as fast, and everyone whoe says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
==;
Maybe it's great for players at our level, but at the top I'm sure they're pretty annoyed because it's just APM "spamming" for them, it's a measure of how fast their hands can be.
At the top, that DOES matter.
Plus the new Blizzard APM counter is full of shit.
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On October 01 2011 03:27 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times, that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast. In fact he is not three times as fast, and everyone whoe says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else. They did ruin in game apm measurement, the gstl last night, they showed the apm team, and genius was at 34. lmao It makes the measurements totally weird, and it really doesn't make any sense, there was nothing wrong with how the apm wa sbefore.
obviously genius should retire immediately
we all know pro gamers are defined by apm and that it's the single most important thing in any rts at all times and not , as some crazy people believe , winning
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On October 01 2011 03:28 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times, that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast. In fact he is not three times as fast, and everyone whoe says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else. ==; Maybe it's great for players at our level, but at the top I'm sure they're pretty annoyed because it's just APM "spamming" for them, it's a measure of how fast their hands can be. At the top, that DOES matter. Plus the new Blizzard APM counter is full of shit.
No. I don't think any pro gamer in the world would be interested in how quickly you can press a button. They are more interested in how well you can play. And so should we.
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On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast. In fact he is not three times as fast, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
I think what the guys were getting at was the ingame measurement called "APM" does not refer to actual Actions Per Minute anymore. It is not measuring your Actions Per Minute, it is measuring what Blizzard think is the elusive statistic called Effective Actions Per Minute. I don't know if anyone can agree on what the actual benchmarks by which EAPM can be measured by and should probably be left to external applications like sc2gears (or its BW equivalent as mentioned in the show, bwchart).
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On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast as me. In fact he is not three times as fast as me, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
Did you even listen to why they said it broke the apm? coz it doesn't seem like u do, maybe u just don't understand english as good.
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On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast as me. In fact he is not three times as fast as me, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
You are making the assumption all spam is useless. If you ever hear day9 talk about tapping then you would know one example of how it is useful. Tapping is where you constantly shift through your hotkeys as a way to see the progress of units, buildings, etc. It is considered spam since it has no direct impact on the game but it does affect the player, since it allows the player to do everything he does on time. Blizzards apm is dumb because it entirely ignores actions that don't have a direct impact in game, but are still useful.
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I just find is endlessly funny how Actions no longer = Actions and Minute no longer = Minute for APM.
at least the Per still applies right... ?
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On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast as me. In fact he is not three times as fast as me, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
It's no longer as accurate a measure for how fast someone is playing, at least when I played the game pre-patch I could see my APM steadily increase the better I became at the game.
Now some games I have 40 apm, some 130, all really depending on the type of game being played. I completely agree with Artosis, and I can only hope that Blizzard reverses it ASAP.
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On October 01 2011 03:31 Kilby wrote:
No. I don't think any pro gamer in the world would be interested in how quickly you can press a button. They are more interested in how well you can play. And so should we.
That's what you think about how they think.
They think differently.
As aforementioned, the God of War: July? Golden mouse winner? Famous for his muta micro?
Obviously they care about how you play. Everyone should, but it's like of like Tyler mentioned in the last SOTG. They want to see how fast you can do things.
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On October 01 2011 03:27 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times, that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast. In fact he is not three times as fast, and everyone whoe says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else. They did ruin in game apm measurement, the gstl last night, they showed the apm team, and genius was at 34. lmao It makes the measurements totally weird, and it really doesn't make any sense, there was nothing wrong with how the apm was before.
I guess the point is that if Genius was at 34 apm and you are at 20 (for example) then it tells you the difference between you and Genious without allowing any spamming to distort the comparison.
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wheres the vod? jp died? 
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On October 01 2011 03:32 BrodiaQ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast as me. In fact he is not three times as fast as me, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else. You are making the assumption all spam is useless. If you ever hear day9 talk about tapping then you would know one example of how it is useful. Tapping is where you constantly shift through your hotkeys as a way to see the progress of units, buildings, etc. It is considered spam since it has no direct impact on the game but it does affect the player, since it allows the player to do everything he does on time. Blizzards apm is dumb because it entirely ignores actions that don't have a direct impact in game, but are still useful.
OK that is true. That could be taken into account. But I think the new APM is still smarter than before in the sence that it eliminates alot of the silly spam that doesn't mean anything.
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On October 01 2011 03:36 Kilby wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:32 BrodiaQ wrote:On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast as me. In fact he is not three times as fast as me, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else. You are making the assumption all spam is useless. If you ever hear day9 talk about tapping then you would know one example of how it is useful. Tapping is where you constantly shift through your hotkeys as a way to see the progress of units, buildings, etc. It is considered spam since it has no direct impact on the game but it does affect the player, since it allows the player to do everything he does on time. Blizzards apm is dumb because it entirely ignores actions that don't have a direct impact in game, but are still useful. OK that is true. That could be taken into account. But I think the new APM is still smarter than before in the sence that it eliminates alot of the silly spam that doesn't mean anything.
Thats where using outside applications should be used. I am of the belief that in game APM should reflect exactly that, Actions Per Minute and I am fairly sure thats what the guys on the show were trying to get at as well.
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United States1150 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast. In fact he is not three times as fast, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else.
You realize that clicking a move command 3 times actually still counts as 3 actions. It wasn't move commands that were removed from apm rather it was consecutive selection commands.
Player A right clicks to move 4 times.
Player B right clicks to move once then checks on his production facilities on hotkeys 5 6 7 8 and 9 by selecting each in turn.
According to blizzard player A did 4 actions and player B did 2 actions. I.E in your example blizzard is saying your "another guy" IS 3 times as fast as you.
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On October 01 2011 03:31 skrotcyk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:26 Kilby wrote:
I just listened to the first 27 mins of the mp3 and I'm like, holy shit did they just remove everyone who can think rationally? If they eliminate the spam from APM then how exactly do they ruin APM? If that means everyone suddenly has the same APM then how is that wrong?
Artosis says "now you can't tell if someone is fast or slow". Well, if I click move command once and another guy clicks the same move command three times that doesn't exactly mean he is three times as fast as me. In fact he is not three times as fast as me, and everyone who says he is three times as fast is simply wrong. In fact he is just as fast as me and only one third as efficient.
I was really surprised that Tyler and even Day9 went on to talk about how stupid the new APM is. Of course it eliminates like 30% of the APM of the biggest spammers but there's nothing wrong in that. In fact, that is a very good thing. Spamming isn't fast play. Spamming is spamming. The new APM will actually show if someone is really faster than someone else. Did you even listen to why they said it broke the apm? coz it doesn't seem like u do, maybe u just don't understand english as good.
Lol. you are funny. Please continue to fill the forums with your perfect english skills.
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On October 01 2011 03:36 Kilby wrote:
OK that is true. That could be taken into account. But I think the new APM is still smarter than before in the sence that it eliminates alot of the silly spam that doesn't mean anything.
lol.
APM is a measurement, much like inches or centimeters or megabytes or DPS.
If you hate APM spamming that's fine, but don't fuck up the measurement for everyone else.
It's like you have someone who's so much taller than you and you get mad about it so you somehow break how the universe to the point where he can't be considered taller than you. Weird example I know but the point is:
DOESN'T MAKE "SENCE".
On October 01 2011 03:39 Jaeger wrote:
You realize that clicking a move command 3 times actually still counts as 3 actions. It wasn't move commands that were removed from apm rather it was consecutive selection commands.
Player A right clicks to move 4 times.
Player B right clicks to move once then checks on his production facilities on hotkeys 5 6 7 8 and 9 by selecting each in turn.
According to blizzard player A did 4 actions and player B did 2 actions. I.E in your example blizzard is saying your "another guy" IS 3 times as fast as you.
"According to Blizzard"
I have this radical idea: let's count the actions per minute of each player... and present it in the replay and not do anything to change the number!
whooooaaa! radical idea right? I KNOW.
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On October 01 2011 03:40 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:36 Kilby wrote:
OK that is true. That could be taken into account. But I think the new APM is still smarter than before in the sence that it eliminates alot of the silly spam that doesn't mean anything. lol. APM is a measurement, much like inches or centimeters or megabytes or DPS. If you hate APM spamming that's fine, but don't fuck up the measurement for everyone else. It's like you have someone who's so much taller than you and you get mad about it so you somehow break how the universe to the point where he can't be considered taller than you. Weird example I know but the point is: DOESN'T MAKE "SENCE".
Nono, close but you are not quite there. My point is that when your goal is to measure the actions a player does in a minute you should not take into account the multiples of each action. In other words you should not take into account redundant "actions" because those are not really actions, they are just pointless spam that is intended to keep your "APM" high. So you should only take into account the actual effective actions and measure those. I think we would get a more realistic view of the player's actual speed through that.
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EPT
