| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
I think Day was closest to the truth. GSL's target audience isn't pro-gamers, it's generally the more casual player who likes to watch good games. Sometimes games can be good just because of the personalities involved or because they're funny. Personally I really liked the all-stars for both those reasons. Liked the show, keep it up guys ^_^ | ||
|
Bayyne
United States1967 Posts
On September 15 2011 11:17 Oldini wrote: Don't know why people think stream sniping is against Blizzard ToS it isn't. If you stream be prepared to be sniped and cheated through there. No one thinks sniping is against the ToS. Nor do people think it's that bad. It's when you stream cheat and mix that in with actual game hacks when it becomes bad AND against the ToS. Don't ask me which sniper actually in-game hacks, you can find that out easily. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 15 2011 12:52 Bayyne wrote: No one thinks sniping is against the ToS. Nor do people think it's that bad. It's when you stream cheat and mix that in with actual game hacks when it becomes bad AND against the ToS. Don't ask me which sniper actually in-game hacks, you can find that out easily. Using streaming and battle.net to harass people is against the ToS. What Deezer is doing to Destiny is close to stalking and would be beyond creep if was anything else but a video game. Can you imagian if Destiny played cheese instead and Deezer followed him to every event, coffee house and park he played in? We would be telling him to call the police. The fact that Deezer hunts him down, even on smurf accounts, leaves games to play against Destiny shows that it goes way beyond simply playing Starcraft 2. Deezer is harassing Destiny(and other players) for his own enjoyment, which isn't ok. | ||
|
RayzorFlash
Canada253 Posts
It felt a lot like they took the same system as any western sport all-star game (NHL, NBA, MLB, NFL) and tried to apply it to SC2, where people vote for all-stars and then they play meaningless games for the hell of it, and to take a break from the daily practice grind and interact with fans and other players in a fun, light-hearted event. A token MVP is named for the game and they get X prize (normally a car in western sports). This whole all-star game principle is WIDELY regarded as being stupid and pointless, to the point where western sports are working hard to try and make all-star games more fun and popular, and it seems really backwards for eSports to adopt this system when others are trying to improve it. The only all-star game in sports that currently WORKS is the MLB game, because the winning league gets home-field advantage for the World Series Championship (think finals). Now obviously that won't work for SC2 since there is no "home-field" to play for. Another interesting all-star game format was what the NHL tried this past season, where they let people vote for players, but put them all in one pool, and named captains and assistant captains who participated in a "draft" for the players on each time. This made for a fun event for fans, where we got to see players interacting and drafting people for their teams, and it made it more personal for the players. NOW... My suggestion to GOM for a future all-star game: Have people vote for 14 players. Have the two finalists for the GSL final be the coaches/captains, and do a draft to pick two teams of 7 players each. Have a similar Bo7 game between the two teams, sending out players one at a time (would LOVE for it to be GSTL style, but you need all the players to play otherwise people who voted don't get to see their favourite player play) The Coach of the Winning team gets to pick the first map for the GSL Finals game. The rest of the maps are played in the same order as otherwise. This gives the players added incentive to win, and also causes an interesting dynamic in that a teammate of the player in the finals might decide to toss a game so that they get the home-field advantage  My only hesitation is that the players playing in the Finals need time to gather themselves and practice etc. Maybe have the all-star game at a different time, not the same day of the finals? Let me know what you guys think of this, any suggestions appreciated :D. Could it work? Would you watch it?? Would it be better than the current concept?? | ||
|
Draekan
Canada220 Posts
On September 15 2011 13:17 RayzorFlash wrote: A little comment in relation to the all-star game... It felt a lot like they took the same system as any western sport all-star game (NHL, NBA, MLB, NFL) and tried to apply it to SC2, where people vote for all-stars and then they play meaningless games for the hell of it, and to take a break from the daily practice grind and interact with fans and other players in a fun, light-hearted event. A token MVP is named for the game and they get X prize (normally a car in western sports). This whole all-star game principle is WIDELY regarded as being stupid and pointless, to the point where western sports are working hard to try and make all-star games more fun and popular, and it seems really backwards for eSports to adopt this system when others are trying to improve it. The only all-star game in sports that currently WORKS is the MLB game, because the winning league gets home-field advantage for the World Series Championship (think finals). Now obviously that won't work for SC2 since there is no "home-field" to play for. Another interesting all-star game format was what the NHL tried this past season, where they let people vote for players, but put them all in one pool, and named captains and assistant captains who participated in a "draft" for the players on each time. This made for a fun event for fans, where we got to see players interacting and drafting people for their teams, and it made it more personal for the players. NOW... My suggestion to GOM for a future all-star game: Have people vote for 14 players. Have the two finalists for the GSL final be the coaches/captains, and do a draft to pick two teams of 7 players each. Have a similar Bo7 game between the two teams, sending out players one at a time (would LOVE for it to be GSTL style, but you need all the players to play otherwise people who voted don't get to see their favourite player play) The Coach of the Winning team gets to pick the first map for the GSL Finals game. The rest of the maps are played in the same order as otherwise. This gives the players added incentive to win, and also causes an interesting dynamic in that a teammate of the player in the finals might decide to toss a game so that they get the home-field advantage My only hesitation is that the players playing in the Finals need time to gather themselves and practice etc. Maybe have the all-star game at a different time, not the same day of the finals? Let me know what you guys think of this, any suggestions appreciated :D. Could it work? Would you watch it?? Would it be better than the current concept?? The only thing i have to disagree about this, while you put an interesting concept out here, the one thing i disagree with is that it would be the winners team gets to choose what map is in the finals to start. If that was the case, then lets say its MC vs MKP in the finals, and MKP's team wins the all star event. Whos to say MC's team, or at least parts of it, while good players and for the most part respectable, wouldnt throw a game, or just mess around because it means nothing to them, when in a GSL finals, it could mean the world between MC and MKP. I think thats putting too much power into the hands of people that have no invested interest (and hence, no reason to care. Or they just dont like their captain, or teammates with the other captain so they throw a game) Dont say it wont happen because players wouldnt think of doing that... I think we all remember (if you followed BW at all) the big gambling fiasco. IMO - the all star thing was fine. I had no problems with it. I was entertained. The players got a chance to offrace for fun on TV, or mess around with wierd builds just for fun. While for some people they just dont wanna watch anything that isnt straight up serious matches that mean something, they dont HAVE to watch. | ||
|
RayzorFlash
Canada253 Posts
On September 15 2011 13:45 Draekan wrote: The only thing i have to disagree about this, while you put an interesting concept out here, the one thing i disagree with is that it would be the winners team gets to choose what map is in the finals to start. If that was the case, then lets say its MC vs MKP in the finals, and MKP's team wins the all star event. Whos to say MC's team, or at least parts of it, while good players and for the most part respectable, wouldnt throw a game, or just mess around because it means nothing to them, when in a GSL finals, it could mean the world between MC and MKP. I think thats putting too much power into the hands of people that have no invested interest (and hence, no reason to care. Or they just dont like their captain, or teammates with the other captain so they throw a game) Dont say it wont happen because players wouldnt think of doing that... I think we all remember (if you followed BW at all) the big gambling fiasco. IMO - the all star thing was fine. I had no problems with it. I was entertained. The players got a chance to offrace for fun on TV, or mess around with wierd builds just for fun. While for some people they just dont wanna watch anything that isnt straight up serious matches that mean something, they dont HAVE to watch. I actually think that's fine though... Each map still gets played, it just changes the order for the first one, and it makes it so that the captain/coach picks players whom they can trust to get wins more than the other. Both players would know that if they picked the other's teammate or good friend, that player will likely throw the game, so the captains will inherently try NOT to pick players that would be likely to lose on purpose. I also think Korean sense of honor/pride would be good also for preventing stuff like that, and even if it does happen, its just the order of the games in the finals, its not THAT big of a deal. It adds a sense of "okay, this game is actually MEANINGFUL in some way" to the all-star game, which I like about the MLB one. | ||
|
happyness
United States2400 Posts
It wasn't meant to be taken seriously, and the sotg guys stated that they didn't like it from a competitors viewpoint. Why is anyone butt-hurt over this? Ask yourself: "SHOULD I REALLY CARE?" Because you really shouldn't. This has got to be one of the stupidest conversations I've seen on TL thus far. | ||
|
RedBack
Australia102 Posts
On September 15 2011 10:11 Thugtronik wrote: this thread cracks me up. some of you people bitching and moaning and dissecting every little word they say on the show sound like complete idiots. how the fuck do you pussies cope in the real world if you get offended by jokes made by a bunch of dudes on a starcraft podcast? seriously... great show as always <3 Haha its the truth........ but dont you see you're being a Buzz Killington  | ||
|
aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
Overall it's better than any other tournament format I can think of ... 2) Why showmatches aren't fun, we hear from the guy behind 'funday monday' ? That just weirded me out. I understand the idea behind it - but really, I thought it was weird. It's fun because we can see them play without being serious, and enjoy the fan favorites doing what they love without any pressure. 3) More and more I dislike that 'State of the Game' refuses to really discuss balance much ... I think that, even if they don't agree, they should talk about it some. Especially with possible upcoming patches that have such huge changes. It's actually much more important for the 'state of the game' then who you think is the weakest or strongest player in some 8 player invitational ... But that sounds overly harsh, I enjoy the show and like it, and I think it's great, so keep it up - it's not too seriously meant. | ||
|
Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 15 2011 20:12 aebriol wrote: 2) Why showmatches aren't fun, we hear from the guy behind 'funday monday' ? That just weirded me out. I understand the idea behind it - but really, I thought it was weird. It's fun because we can see them play without being serious, and enjoy the fan favorites doing what they love without any pressure. He explained that point. I guess you didn't pay attention or didn't listen to the show? It's different when you are watching guys you know are bad doing silly things and watching players you expect the very best from messing around. It's really hard for a him to switch off his mind's expectations of good play and enjoy mediocre play from these top players. Personally I don't enjoy it but that doesn't really change other peoples enjoyment so why is this such an issue. I thought it was obvious they wouldn't like it. | ||
|
Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On September 15 2011 20:12 aebriol wrote: 3) More and more I dislike that 'State of the Game' refuses to really discuss balance much ... I think that, even if they don't agree, they should talk about it some. Especially with possible upcoming patches that have such huge changes. It's actually much more important for the 'state of the game' then who you think is the weakest or strongest player in some 8 player invitational ... I'd be super thankful if they shut up forever about balance. I don't want to hear it. What I would really love to hear more is breaking down of matchups. They used to do long discussions about for example pvt, and go really deep into the strategies used by pros etc. I guess I'd really appreciate if they would discuss in detail strategies, think about the awesome thread about the 15 hatch in ZvZ that popped up on the strategy forums. I really want to hear that stuff. Balance discussion is boring and pointless, it just serves to give bad players (anyone who isn't a pro is bad, including me) a sense of relief when they can throw their losses on balance. I love them discussing pro-gaming and strategies. That should be what the show is all about. Break down more games and discuss players. My thoughts on balance: + Show Spoiler + I have never ever lost a game due to balance. Idra lost to morrow more than a year ago due to 5rax reaper, that was a balance issue. I also lost to people doing it on ladder, that's NOT a balance issue because I'm terrible. Idra would've defended that easy. Balance is completely and utterly irrelevant below the absolute top level of play. | ||
|
aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On September 15 2011 20:18 Numy wrote: He explained that point. I guess you didn't pay attention or didn't listen to the show? uh, read all I wrote I said 'I understand the idea behind it'. I don't have to rewrite his point do I? I just thought it was weird, was all. | ||
|
mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On September 15 2011 08:01 MrCon wrote: About the Day9 rant about the GSL format which doesn't allow enough new players. From the awesome Assorted GSL statistics : (and that's 1.5 months old) I wonder if MLG can say the same. I don't mean this as a ditch to MLG, just that Day9 point was very subjective. (especially as he doesn't watch it and it wouldn't surprise me that he doesn't follow it either) The funny thing is that GSL is not an invitational, so that skill matters for surviving, while all other tourneys that day9 is praising have an invitational format, and consistently invite the same players over and over again. Well, all my posts today were criticisms about sotg, but I still love the show, I just didn't liked how they talked about something they seem to know less and less about. It is not like MLG has not been criticized for its format, even by the hosts. Also compared to tournaments that are invite-based or qualifier based it takes a very long time to replace the players. And considering how the top player group constantly changes GSL format seems too slow to adapt to it. Not slow in the sense of absolute time, but slow from the point of seasons. There is too big a potential for players that are now far from the top to still be in code S, even after 1-2 seasons after they lost their form and that decreases the potential quality of the code S games. That is my take on what Day9 said, but he might have meant it somewhat differently. But whatever the case, your criticism seems to be baseless and another case of seeing things that are not there or fitting hosts' words to your preconceived notions and strawmanning them severely. Also Day9 watches GSL quite a bit from what I have seen/heard, I have no idea where you came up with the notion that he does not ? The same goes for your notion of them knowing less and less about GSL. | ||
|
mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On September 15 2011 08:48 spicyredcurry wrote: This reaction people have would lead some people to believe that everything incontrol says is law and that he is not allowed to have an opinion. Damn life sure sucks for him. Also for the rumors surrounding "tasteless losing his job" need to also keep in mind that MLG is becoming a season format which means that tasteless and artosis would have to travel back and forth from MLG <=> GSL quite alot or they can quit gom and join MLG? In one of the previous threads I was not yet aware to the full extent of the constant hate Incontrol is getting and I criticized him pretty harshly for some things that he said. But seeing this I am starting to understand he gets annoyed, because this is ridiculous. Things taken out of context, strawmen, lack of sense of humor leading to missing sarcasm and irony and just plain hate. Yeah, he should ignore the threads, but I understand it is hard for some people to do it. I definitely would have problem not responding to even stupid criticism. Thankfully I won't be famous and won't have to deal with that  | ||
|
aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On September 15 2011 20:26 Palmar wrote: I love them discussing pro-gaming and strategies. That should be what the show is all about. Break down more games and discuss players. My thoughts on balance: + Show Spoiler + I have never ever lost a game due to balance. Idra lost to morrow more than a year ago due to 5rax reaper, that was a balance issue. I also lost to people doing it on ladder, that's NOT a balance issue because I'm terrible. Idra would've defended that easy. Balance is completely and utterly irrelevant below the absolute top level of play. Well, the thing is ... To make my point about the ZvT matchup. Since beta, barracks with bunker rushes have successfully been used as a rush / cheese strategy for Terrans, that even when scouted, more often than not is successful enough to leave the Terran ahead - and often, far ahead. No matter which opening the zerg does. It went so far that they implemented neutral supply depot to help with it on competition maps - that and pylon blocks. Now as a low level (my example, mid to low masters) zerg - learning to play optimally against bunker rushes can be somewhat frustrating, given that LosirA, Idra, NesTea, etc loses to this. In a patch that atm seems to both: bug fix drones so they can attack easier, and make barracks build time longer, it's quite the big balance change even if it doesn't seem to be - because it makes the push slightly slower, and makes it easier to defend, at the same time. That's not irrelevant 'below the absolute top level of play'. It will be relevant from NesTea down to platinum at least ... I understand your viewpoint, in that you can improve without the balance changes making it impossible, but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant ... Same with Protoss trying to learn how to counter 1-1-1. You learn from the pros. When the pros can't deal with specific builds ... you don't even know what to attempt when everyone is doing the flavor of the month 1 base all in against you. Whether it's platinum or masters. So while balance matters the most at the highest level of play, those trying to improve learn from the pros, and when they don't know what to do, it becomes a problem for many other players as well. Also - 5 rax reaper was a balance problem even before it was patched. It's not somehow that once something is patched, then it suddenly was a balance problem, but before it was patched, it was perfectly fine ... it's the other way around normally. It's patched because there exists some balance problem they are trying to address. | ||
|
EvOr
France48 Posts
On September 15 2011 21:10 aebriol wrote: I understand your viewpoint, in that you can improve without the balance changes making it impossible, but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant ... Same with Protoss trying to learn how to counter 1-1-1. You learn from the pros. When the pros can't deal with specific builds ... you don't even know what to attempt when everyone is doing the flavor of the month 1 base all in against you. Whether it's platinum or masters. So while balance matters the most at the highest level of play, those trying to improve learn from the pros, and when they don't know what to do, it becomes a problem for many other players as well. I understand your point but... First of all, I'd be gladly playing in gold instead of diamond/master, if that means high level play is balanced and that I have to improve to get out of there. Instead of getting tired of those korean high level games where protoss is destroyed here and there. On the 1-1-1, pro-level 1-1-1 is hard to hold 'cause these guys can actually defend anything with one hand while building their push with the other. At my level (diamond/low masters EU), I hold the 1-1-1 easily if I react correctly with either fast collossi, or chargezlot + templars/archons (depending on the timing of my expand) by simply attacking the terran while he's moving, and by forcing him to siege or to drop the pdd or by killing marines. If you watch Mana stream, he does it all the time against GM. I can do that because at my level, the push is far weaker that the one of the pros because of the lower mechanics +overall weaker army control of the EU low masters, at our level 1-1-1 is a non-issue, but if the pros can't hold it, that means it might be a balance problem. There should never be a balance patch because for something other than pro games in tournament. And you can always try to hold something by thinking about it yourself instead of relying on pros with far better mechanics than yourself to show you how hold something while preparing for the next stage of the game. | ||
|
Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
It's completely irrelevant because the bunker rushes are badly executed and our defense is badly executed, so balance has nothing to do with it. It's not the same thing being bunker rushed by a random mid-masters terran or by mvp. But yeah, I've actually gotten really fucking frustrated with all the balance whining in general, the players who play my race (z) are basically largely huge whining bitches, I actually considered switching races just so I wouldn't be part of the stupid zerg whine-fest-community. | ||
|
aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On September 15 2011 22:14 Palmar wrote: any pro would smash the bunker rushes you or me are losing to. I'm same race, same skill level as you. It's completely irrelevant because the bunker rushes are badly executed and our defense is badly executed, so balance has nothing to do with it. I am not saying I am good, cause I am not, but really ... when playing against people at roughly the same skill level, knowing how to beat something, is a good first step to dealing with it, and not having a clear answer because the pro are having serious trouble dealing with it when playing against players at their skill level, is not irrelevant information. Although I like Losira's 'oh I just won't bother defending it' and double expand afterwards solution atm Anyway, the 'completely irrelevant' viewpoint bothers me, because it assumes that everything is balanced no matter how unbalanced it is. To take that viewpoint, it wouldn't matter if we went back to beta 1 supply roach, because MC would still crush people at our low skill level if that were the case ... even though it would be stupidly overpowered. | ||
|
TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On September 15 2011 20:26 Palmar wrote: I'd be super thankful if they shut up forever about balance. I don't want to hear it. What I would really love to hear more is breaking down of matchups. They used to do long discussions about for example pvt, and go really deep into the strategies used by pros etc. I guess I'd really appreciate if they would discuss in detail strategies, think about the awesome thread about the 15 hatch in ZvZ that popped up on the strategy forums. I really want to hear that stuff. Balance discussion is boring and pointless, it just serves to give bad players (anyone who isn't a pro is bad, including me) a sense of relief when they can throw their losses on balance. I love them discussing pro-gaming and strategies. That should be what the show is all about. Break down more games and discuss players. My thoughts on balance: + Show Spoiler + I have never ever lost a game due to balance. Idra lost to morrow more than a year ago due to 5rax reaper, that was a balance issue. I also lost to people doing it on ladder, that's NOT a balance issue because I'm terrible. Idra would've defended that easy. Balance is completely and utterly irrelevant below the absolute top level of play. If the tools of a race are stronger than the tools of another race in a particular matchup, I don't see why the advantage wouldn't transcend into levels of play beyond the absolute best. Of course there's room to improve and compensate for a weakness by playing better, especially in low levels of play, but the fact that one race has to elevate their play to enjoy the same probability of winning should be a problem itself (ex. ZvP pre-infestor buff.) | ||
|
Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On September 15 2011 09:47 Bayyne wrote: And that's his opinion, sup? You think if he suggests to people to not eat for 3 days straight people will listen? Don't you think this is kinda hypocritical? He can have an opinion about ours opinion without problem. Yet when ppl comment on his opinion we all are supposed to shut up and stop whining. Either allow it all or nothing, don't pick spots where it is allowed and where not. | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Calm Dota 2 13697Rain  8023Flash  1503Mong 1408Hyuk 564BeSt 290ggaemo 232Soulkey 184firebathero 156Mini 148[ Show more ] Counter-Strike Heroes of the Storm Other Games B2W.Neo2693 DeMusliM712 Fnx  413mouzStarbuck372 Liquid`VortiX95 Dewaltoss64 JuggernautJason19 trigger4 |
|
[BSL 2025] Weekly
Online Event
Replay Cast
SOOP Global
ByuN vs Zoun
Rogue vs Bunny
PiG Sty Festival
herO vs Rogue
ByuN vs SKillous
Sparkling Tuna Cup
BSL Nation Wars 2
Online Event
AI Arena 2025 Tournament
Replay Cast
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
