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On September 14 2011 14:22 TheKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 14:08 Jayrod wrote:
Hrmm... so what's the zerg player doing this whole time players are massing up thors... Its not that hard to mass thors... Just open a normal blue flame opening, claim map control, get like 4 factories off 2 base, 1 with a reactor 3 with techlabs and just pump out thors while also researching thor upgrades. Then move out with blue flame hellions and scvs to repair the thors and they are extremely hard to beat.
Yes, there was a sweet thor helion banshee build that people did almost a year ago. i think i stole it from drewbie. where you opened reactor helion and massed thors helions and banshees (if i remember correctly) and pushed around 160 food off 2 bases with 2 rax and 2 fac. The only thing zerg could do back then was to get infestors and FG and NP to stop it (although that crushed it pretty hard). Now with the NP nerf it will be very hard again for zerg to stop such builds. But im no pro and i could be totaly wrong.
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You have to login to be able to watch it?
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On September 14 2011 14:51 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 14:22 TheKing wrote:On September 14 2011 14:08 Jayrod wrote:
Hrmm... so what's the zerg player doing this whole time players are massing up thors... Its not that hard to mass thors... Just open a normal blue flame opening, claim map control, get like 4 factories off 2 base, 1 with a reactor 3 with techlabs and just pump out thors while also researching thor upgrades. Then move out with blue flame hellions and scvs to repair the thors and they are extremely hard to beat. thors don't well in scale into late game scenarios. a thor will beat 4 roaches in early game but late game when all the units are fully upgraded, 8 thors loses to 32 roaches. i don't consider hellion/thor a viable strategy unless you deal a ton of economic damage early mid-game because all you need to do is mass roaches to counter. this is why koreans always mix tanks because they take care of the roach problem. in this case I do believe NP is necessary to deal with the thors/tanks.
I agree, tanks help against roaches, but the repairing scvs also help a ton. A few repairing scvs can out dps alot of roaches (maybe not 30 not too sure about that).
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That's why you get some banelings/lings to take out some repairing scvs. And then if their micro is better than yours they'll somehow manage to take out all the banelings with helions and deserve to win if someone wants to argue that.
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YEEES, This Wednesday is saved!
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On September 14 2011 14:51 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 14:22 TheKing wrote:On September 14 2011 14:08 Jayrod wrote:
Hrmm... so what's the zerg player doing this whole time players are massing up thors... Its not that hard to mass thors... Just open a normal blue flame opening, claim map control, get like 4 factories off 2 base, 1 with a reactor 3 with techlabs and just pump out thors while also researching thor upgrades. Then move out with blue flame hellions and scvs to repair the thors and they are extremely hard to beat. thors don't well in scale into late game scenarios. a thor will beat 4 roaches in early game but late game when all the units are fully upgraded, 8 thors loses to 32 roaches. i don't consider hellion/thor a viable strategy unless you deal a ton of economic damage early mid-game because all you need to do is mass roaches to counter. this is why koreans always mix tanks because they take care of the roach problem. in this case I do believe NP is necessary to deal with the thors/tanks.
Where are you getting this from? They do scale well from what I've seen. Lings become less and less effective against thors. Thors can also be repaired and if mass roach does beat them like you claim, the terran would only need to throw in a few marauders really.
But mass thor probably wouldn't be the problem. The problem is that it would make marine tank with a few thors or ghost mech even more robust than it already is.
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On September 14 2011 14:45 bovineblitz wrote:
it's not GomTvT's fault that GSL has become boring.
Actually, it is. GSL has a format that only gives a CHANCE to cycle in 8 new players into Code S. It's actually closer to 6 every "season" though. This means it would take 2 seasons at best to clear the Terran ranks to balanced numbers.
Compare this to the 16 "new" spots in Code A and Code S feels like a dull repeat. I know many people (including myself) that would love to see the bottom 8 drop to Code A automatically and have the next 8 in the up/down matches with the top half of Code A.
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Marine tank thor will probably be unchanged unless you're stylistic and like opening ling infestor against that. Thor helion rushes will probably be better as well, but then again just massing roaches with some banelings has been fine against that for a while now. Going into infestor tech to deal with such a timing isn't really ideal. Mech with tank/thor will be better but really, NPing tanks works well too. NP against thors made that engagement just entirely one sided if your infestors didn't die to tanks.
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On September 14 2011 15:06 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 14:45 bovineblitz wrote:
it's not GomTvT's fault that GSL has become boring. Actually, it is. GSL has a format that only gives a CHANCE to cycle in 8 new players into Code S. It's actually closer to 6 every "season" though. This means it would take 2 seasons at best to clear the Terran ranks to balanced numbers. Compare this to the 16 "new" spots in Code A and Code S feels like a dull repeat. I know many people (including myself) that would love to see the bottom 8 drop to Code A automatically and have the next 8 in the up/down matches with the top half of Code A.
But its not like the super tournament prevented the higher rounds from turning into a tvt fest anyways in fact it was one of the worst so far. If there are 20+ terrans good enough to get into code S (due to skill or imbalance) and the best protoss have a 30% winrate against them I don't think any format will give you racial balance for the top 32. I don't think your suggestion would help stop the terrans either top 8 of code A has always been terran heavy making it easier for them to get into code S won't fix the racial balance.
It'd take one season to get back down to the 15 t standard they've had all year, and code A is looking good for zerg and protoss. They just gotta be smart and replace the best terran maps with anti-terran maps for october.
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Thx JP. Now I can listen SotG till it is noon. Another great day at work  .
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Day9 teaches me things about life that no progamer ever could.
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On September 14 2011 15:06 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 14:45 bovineblitz wrote:
it's not GomTvT's fault that GSL has become boring. Actually, it is. GSL has a format that only gives a CHANCE to cycle in 8 new players into Code S. It's actually closer to 6 every "season" though. This means it would take 2 seasons at best to clear the Terran ranks to balanced numbers. Compare this to the 16 "new" spots in Code A and Code S feels like a dull repeat. I know many people (including myself) that would love to see the bottom 8 drop to Code A automatically and have the next 8 in the up/down matches with the top half of Code A.
You must have a short attention span. Nothing wrong with keeping most of the same players.
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On September 14 2011 14:59 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 14:51 JoeSchmoe wrote:On September 14 2011 14:22 TheKing wrote:On September 14 2011 14:08 Jayrod wrote:
Hrmm... so what's the zerg player doing this whole time players are massing up thors... Its not that hard to mass thors... Just open a normal blue flame opening, claim map control, get like 4 factories off 2 base, 1 with a reactor 3 with techlabs and just pump out thors while also researching thor upgrades. Then move out with blue flame hellions and scvs to repair the thors and they are extremely hard to beat. thors don't well in scale into late game scenarios. a thor will beat 4 roaches in early game but late game when all the units are fully upgraded, 8 thors loses to 32 roaches. i don't consider hellion/thor a viable strategy unless you deal a ton of economic damage early mid-game because all you need to do is mass roaches to counter. this is why koreans always mix tanks because they take care of the roach problem. in this case I do believe NP is necessary to deal with the thors/tanks. Where are you getting this from? They do scale well from what I've seen. Lings become less and less effective against thors. Thors can also be repaired and if mass roach does beat them like you claim, the terran would only need to throw in a few marauders really. But mass thor probably wouldn't be the problem. The problem is that it would make marine tank with a few thors or ghost mech even more robust than it already is.
Mostly from my own experiences. I used to go hellion/thor combinations a lot vs zerg, enjoyed a reasonable amount of success early-mid game but had trouble in various late game scenarios. Often my opponent would simply overrun me with roaches so I played around with the unit tester a bit. turns out thors are better against roaches in smaller amounts but thor vs roach in large numbers with 3/3 upgrades, they don't fare so well. You can play/try this yourself in the unit tester. Now I mix in tanks in all my mech games to take advantage of the splash against roaches.
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On September 14 2011 14:45 coolcor wrote:
Man seeing that these passionate starcraft pros who dedicate their lives to this game don't think GSL is worth watching even for the finals and it has a bad format that makes bad games it makes me feel bad for paying 15 bucks every month for it and watching the all-star matches.
Mostly they're just bitter than foreigners get destroyed so hard in GSL. Code S is still by far the best by a fucking mile if you care about the best play and not hype or skin colour.
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On September 14 2011 16:34 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 14:45 coolcor wrote:
Man seeing that these passionate starcraft pros who dedicate their lives to this game don't think GSL is worth watching even for the finals and it has a bad format that makes bad games it makes me feel bad for paying 15 bucks every month for it and watching the all-star matches. Mostly they're just bitter than foreigners get destroyed so hard in GSL. Code S is still by far the best by a fucking mile if you care about the best play and not hype or skin colour.
Asians have white skin too.
Come to think of it...How many black pro gamers are there? (SC2 wise) I know theres a lot of halo and whatever but I honestly can't think of any sc2 pros that are black..
Why is this.
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On September 14 2011 15:42 coolcor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 15:06 aksfjh wrote:On September 14 2011 14:45 bovineblitz wrote:
it's not GomTvT's fault that GSL has become boring. Actually, it is. GSL has a format that only gives a CHANCE to cycle in 8 new players into Code S. It's actually closer to 6 every "season" though. This means it would take 2 seasons at best to clear the Terran ranks to balanced numbers. Compare this to the 16 "new" spots in Code A and Code S feels like a dull repeat. I know many people (including myself) that would love to see the bottom 8 drop to Code A automatically and have the next 8 in the up/down matches with the top half of Code A. But its not like the super tournament prevented the higher rounds from turning into a tvt fest anyways in fact it was one of the worst so far. If there are 20+ terrans good enough to get into code S (due to skill or imbalance) and the best protoss have a 30% winrate against them I don't think any format will give you racial balance for the top 32. I don't think your suggestion would help stop the terrans either top 8 of code A has always been terran heavy making it easier for them to get into code S won't fix the racial balance. It'd take one season to get back down to the 15 t standard they've had all year, and code A is looking good for zerg and protoss. They just gotta be smart and replace the best terran maps with anti-terran maps for october.
^ This, essentially.
The overwhelming number of terrans in Code S has less to do with the tournament format and more to do with the fact that terran players in Code S are winning more than their zerg and toss counterparts, be it due to skill or imbalance. Whiny bitching ahead:
+ Show Spoiler + It's not like the tournament format rewards mere participation, thus actively preventing players that consistently lose from getting relegated.
I don't think anyone will dispute the statement that terrans are currently dominating, especially in Code S. Allowing for a higher attrition rate will allow for the POSSIBILITY for more balanced race representation. The other two races won't magically win just because the attrition rate is higher though. Should the attrition rate be increased, what is more PROBABLE is that zerg and toss representation will be even lower.
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I can understand them not enjoying the All Star games, I wasn't interested in them either as I prefer serious games with something at stake, I don't watch the NBA AllStar game either, but lots of people do love these kind of events, and I think they proved fairly popular with the viewers no? So they definitely have a place.
Also I don't understand why they would trash on these GSL finals either. I found the level of play incredible and the games very interesting. Mvp was amazing, and it's not like TOP was poor either. The first game was exceptional, and that final game Mvp delivered the most perfect bio vs mech performance ever, was insane. But of course I'm a Terran player and a lot of people hate on tvt for whatever reasons.
I sometimes get the feeling a lot of these foreign pros don't really enjoy watching the GSL, or hardly ever watch it. Could be wrong though!
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I'm confused. Koreans get so much stick for being boring drones with no personality ever by so many people.
--> GomTV arranges All-Star matches with 6 Koreans doing dumb shit like offracing or doing a kong dance on stage and it gets shit on by SOTG.
Korean culture doesn't consist of pro-gamers smashing gaming equipment or shit-talking mid-game like our foreigner scene does. This is how their players show a bit more personality. I just can't see how anyone would think the All-Star games were a waste of time or dismissing everyone in the LR thread who also had a good time watching them. I, for one, hope GomTV does other events that let us see the best players in the world loosen up again.
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On September 14 2011 16:53 Resilient wrote:
I'm confused. Koreans get so much stick for being boring drones with no personality ever by so many people.
--> GomTV arranges All-Star matches with 6 Koreans doing dumb shit like offracing or doing a kong dance on stage and it gets shit on by SOTG.
Korean culture doesn't consist of pro-gamers smashing gaming equipment or shit-talking mid-game like our foreigner scene does. This is how their players show a bit more personality. I just can't see how anyone would think the All-Star games were a waste of time or dismissing everyone in the LR thread who also had a good time watching them. I, for one, hope GomTV does other events that let us see the best players in the world loosen up again.
Yeah, that! I mean, Day9 explained it best when he said he just couldnt get out of his competitive mindset to watch these games. Thats why the guys on Sotg basically shit on te all-star matches. As a spectator and fan of E-Sports, this event was really entertaining and I would want some more of that in the future.
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EPT
