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On May 14 2011 18:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 16:07 wei2coolman wrote:
Hahaha, reading this shit makes me laugh. Please, Idra tells the truth. He's one of the very very few foreigner who's actually has an actual insight into the foreigner scene. For everyone who thinks that Idra's insight misrepresents the Korean SC:BW pros that moved to SC2 is poor, are talking way out of place, who've never actually had the same experiences as Idra. OK, but he isn't exactly the most unbiased person. In fact, I'd probably venture to say he's near the other end of the spectrum on a lot of subjects and this subject just happens to deal with him. He is one of the people that the article was talking about. If MC, Nestea and MVP are bad Brood War players who are only getting by because of a lack of competition, what does that make idra, both in Brood War and StarCraft 2? This viewpoint is a direct attack on him, even if he wasn't mentioned by name. These kinds of subjects are generally not those on which I would trust idra's judgment.
At this point it doesn't matter whether or not Idra's statement is completely factually correct about how good those pros were. Something that I found a little annoying in this SOTG because most of those people obviously did not read the entire thread (neither did I, I lost track around page 30 or 40), is that there were legitimate qualms brought up about the logical reasoning of the article. Yes, a few of the things definitely made sense, and certainly RTS skill transfers over, and more practice from hardworking people means better players, but surrounding those points were statistics that while not factually wrong, were misleading.
Let's assume Idra is wrong (although we do not have that information) and MC and Fruitdealer were actually mediocre players. With only 10 televised games played, it would be difficult to figure out exactly what level MC is in general in SC:BW. You can say he is clearly mediocre, but then how mediocre is he? Is he mediocre enough that his victories in SC2 are meaningless, or is he just good enough that it shows growth in his RTS skill? The point is that Idra's and others statements throw doubt into the whole notion that this is an objective comparison.
The problem with the piece is really that despite being an opinion piece, it acts like it is not an opinion. Here is the other thing: I know nothing about BroodWar and I read the piece at first and took it at face value. But the more comments I read (not from 12 year old trolls but from legitimate logical points), the more it seemed to me like a misleading article. It was cool to read for perspective, but it shouldn't be taken as the gospel truth.
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A good show.
Idra is good for the show if it isn't about something imbalanced. I agree with him on the article (He actually did throw some more good arguments in) (I actually read the article)
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Was there a preshow and if so is it going to get uploaded? Also it would be awesome to actually see the gsl party with sundance and the others. Thanks for great episode.
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IdrA's girlfriend is going to Columbus then?
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On May 14 2011 10:38 nekuodah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:37 Altern wrote:
Who is this girl that they keep mentioning that will go to mlg? Was heavily hinted to do with idrA but it wasnt specified.
Maybe having his girl there will give him the eye of the tiger?
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This is not a big complaint, but JP why don't you hyperlink the URL to the show when you post it in the blog? It's always just a plain URL you have to copy and paste
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On May 14 2011 19:34 PlosionCornu wrote:
IdrA's girlfriend is coming to Columbus then?
Talking 'bout the elephant in the room.. /jk
No seriously guys, forget that silly article. This should be of much more concern!
I can only imagine Idra snucked himself a personal sponsorship by one of the Dr. Pepper girls.
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On May 14 2011 17:51 champy wrote:
Haha episode 38, just look at Kennigit the entire episode. He's focusing so hard, it's like he's doing a math test ^^
thats what getting wrecked on redbull does to you
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8751 Posts
On May 14 2011 16:11 corpuscle wrote:
I don't understand how the fact/opinion that BW players are "better" than the current SC2 players somehow invalidates the game.
intrigue doesn't say it invalidates the game. He's speaking for his personal viewing experience
Millions of people watch college football despite the players in the NFL being objectively better; what matters is that players are providing content good enough to be entertaining, not that they're providing something that's the absolute best possible.
He recognizes that a ton of people enjoy SC2 and that his opinion won't be popular so I can't imagine how you think this could be making a fresh point. In fact, you saying this just seems to reinforce that you totally missed what perspective he's writing from. The relevant question here is whether there are any NFL fans who don't like watching NCAA because the players and teams are worse, and the answer is of course yes.
If you don't like it, fine, that's your prerogative, but there's no reason to shit on SC2 just because it's a different game.
He doesn't shit on it. You perceiving it that way is typical of how 90%+ of community members read and respond to things. Whenever people read something contrary to their opinions, they take it as more extreme and wide and encompassing than it actually is, and then take a shit on some made up argument that's a product of their poor comprehension and misguided passion.
I think you'd be fucking stupid as hell to argue that in 12 years there won't be dominant players like Flash and Jaedong and whatnot in SC2, and it's just not fair to try to compare the games because SC2 is still in its infancy.
In SC1's infancy, there weren't progamers in other games setting an example for how SC1 players should approach progaming. SC1 pros invented the system that has worked so well. SC2 comes out and we can look at SC1 pros to know how to be the best progamers we can be. If a new musical instrument or sport was invented, it could instantly have training and practice schedules about as good as any other instrument or sport, just by looking at how musicians and athletes generally train. Well, SC2 pros have collectively decided to train sub-optimally and it shows. If you don't have an eye for it, then it doesn't bother you, and you probably doubt that it's possible that anyone can have an eye for such a thing. So if you do have an eye for it, maybe you write an editorial about it, doing your best to explain the phenomenon that is cursing your SC2 spectator experience.
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Kennigit needs a fan club. 
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On May 14 2011 23:12 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +If you don't like it, fine, that's your prerogative, but there's no reason to shit on SC2 just because it's a different game. He doesn't shit on it. You perceiving it that way is typical of how 90%+ of community members read and respond to things. Whenever people read something contrary to their opinions, they take it as more extreme and wide and encompassing than it actually is, and then take a shit on some made up argument that's a product of their poor comprehension and misguided passion.
He said that
a. SC2 is not enjoyable for him to watch because
b. the level of play is so much lower than BW which is a result of
c. sc2 players not taking it at seriously as BW professionals and grinding enough practice
Not liking something because it does not conform to his very specific standards of excellence DOES seem like he is shitting on it, at least in it's CURRENT state.
How you like this, when you fit into the part he dislikes about the game (i.e. a player who doesn't practice as much as a BW a-teamer), I don't know....
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In my opinion Idra said exactly what's wrong with this article. There wouldn't be such a shitstorm if he simply wrote a article about how he enjoys watching BW more than SC2, because he thinks they play on a higher level and have more refined training schedules. His article was more aggressive and tried to prove his point in a bad and wrong way.
I feel like Tyler and Incontrol only talked at the core-message and Idra looked at the whole article and the argumentation.
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On May 14 2011 23:12 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
He doesn't shit on it. You perceiving it that way is typical of how 90%+ of community members read and respond to things. Whenever people read something contrary to their opinions, they take it as more extreme and wide and encompassing than it actually is, and then take a shit on some made up argument that's a product of their poor comprehension and misguided passion.
I have to somewhat disagree Tyler. He tries to invalidate SC2's competition thus far using what he presents as facts and a logical basis, but in reality his article is far more aligned with someone trying to invalidate SC2's competition out of emotion, not reason.
He doesn't say "I feel like that the competition in SC2 has been a farce.", he says it as if it were a provable fact. and tries to back it up with manipulative statistics which clearly don't prove his point. Then he moves on into uninformed bashing of SC2 players work-ethics, and calling Thorzain and MC 'high school sports' caliber competition which is troll-level hyperbole. It's an article written to incite SC2 fans. This isn't misrepresenting the article whatsoever. Also note: I'm a fellow philosophy major and 26 years old, so I'm not some immature fanboy getting riled up over nothing.
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On May 14 2011 23:12 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 16:11 corpuscle wrote:
I don't understand how the fact/opinion that BW players are "better" than the current SC2 players somehow invalidates the game. intrigue doesn't say it invalidates the game. He's speaking for his personal viewing experience Show nested quote +Millions of people watch college football despite the players in the NFL being objectively better; what matters is that players are providing content good enough to be entertaining, not that they're providing something that's the absolute best possible. He recognizes that a ton of people enjoy SC2 and that his opinion won't be popular so I can't imagine how you think this could be making a fresh point. In fact, you saying this just seems to reinforce that you totally missed what perspective he's writing from. The relevant question here is whether there are any NFL fans who don't like watching NCAA because the players and teams are worse, and the answer is of course yes. Show nested quote +If you don't like it, fine, that's your prerogative, but there's no reason to shit on SC2 just because it's a different game. He doesn't shit on it. You perceiving it that way is typical of how 90%+ of community members read and respond to things. Whenever people read something contrary to their opinions, they take it as more extreme and wide and encompassing than it actually is, and then take a shit on some made up argument that's a product of their poor comprehension and misguided passion. Show nested quote +I think you'd be fucking stupid as hell to argue that in 12 years there won't be dominant players like Flash and Jaedong and whatnot in SC2, and it's just not fair to try to compare the games because SC2 is still in its infancy. In SC1's infancy, there weren't progamers in other games setting an example for how SC1 players should approach progaming. SC1 pros invented the system that has worked so well. SC2 comes out and we can look at SC1 pros to know how to be the best progamers we can be. If a new musical instrument or sport was invented, it could instantly have training and practice schedules about as good as any other instrument or sport, just by looking at how musicians and athletes generally train. Well, SC2 pros have collectively decided to train sub-optimally and it shows. If you don't have an eye for it, then it doesn't bother you, and you probably doubt that it's possible that anyone can have an eye for such a thing. So if you do have an eye for it, maybe you write an editorial about it, doing your best to explain the phenomenon that is cursing your SC2 spectator experience.
Then intrigue really needs a chrash course in wording his thoughts, calling things a farse and using 90% of the article to explain how bad things are is not a balanced way of saying that he personally have a problem and that there is much more to come with the right approach from pros.
If he had that point of view that you say, and still put out that article after contemplaiting how it was written, it is just a big flaimbait not worthy to be featured news.
It is on the same level as "Liquid versus EG – The PR War", several good points, some mistakes, But overall badly written.
http://www.sixjaxgaming.com/wp/scii/2011/05/09/liquid-versus-eg-the-pr-war/
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I don't understand how people are saying the article wasn't about his personal standpoint. He wrote an editorial and argued on his personal belief and perspective.
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To put it simply: the greatest RTS players are playing BW right now, and that stops Intrigue from enjoying SC2 as much as he does BW. That's it. + Show Spoiler +Ok, he might have thrown is some major BW elitism, but still he has a valid point
SC2 is a great game. I enjoy watching both SC2 and BW. People need to chill and watch more SC instead of whining about what other people have said about their viewing preferences
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On May 14 2011 23:12 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
SC2 comes out and we can look at SC1 pros to know how to be the best progamers we can be. If a new musical instrument or sport was invented, it could instantly have training and practice schedules about as good as any other instrument or sport, just by looking at how musicians and athletes generally train. Well, SC2 pros have collectively decided to train sub-optimally and it shows.
Any relatively new sport is going to have less hours put into training than an established purely because of lacking infrastructure and competition, I don't think SC2 progamers are ignoring how SC1 pros trained, they do it but they're not putting in the same time, this is going to change quickly as Slayers for example seems to be putting more focused time on practicing compared to the other teams and it shows. Soon the other teams will have to do it or they'll fall behind and this is when the the truly talented players will stand out.
The current pros is also the first generation of Starcraft 2 pros, they didn't have any of the big names to look up to and say "I really want to be better than this player" to motivate them to training more.
Just look at any sport 20 years ago and compare the players and it's not going to be even close in skills to the players today. Time will solve everything.
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THe big problem with the article was the (intentionally) inflammatory wording, it was a calling card to trolls from all sides of the community.
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On May 14 2011 23:12 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 16:11 corpuscle wrote:
I don't understand how the fact/opinion that BW players are "better" than the current SC2 players somehow invalidates the game. intrigue doesn't say it invalidates the game. He's speaking for his personal viewing experience Show nested quote +Millions of people watch college football despite the players in the NFL being objectively better; what matters is that players are providing content good enough to be entertaining, not that they're providing something that's the absolute best possible. He recognizes that a ton of people enjoy SC2 and that his opinion won't be popular so I can't imagine how you think this could be making a fresh point. In fact, you saying this just seems to reinforce that you totally missed what perspective he's writing from. The relevant question here is whether there are any NFL fans who don't like watching NCAA because the players and teams are worse, and the answer is of course yes. Show nested quote +If you don't like it, fine, that's your prerogative, but there's no reason to shit on SC2 just because it's a different game. He doesn't shit on it. You perceiving it that way is typical of how 90%+ of community members read and respond to things. Whenever people read something contrary to their opinions, they take it as more extreme and wide and encompassing than it actually is, and then take a shit on some made up argument that's a product of their poor comprehension and misguided passion. Show nested quote +I think you'd be fucking stupid as hell to argue that in 12 years there won't be dominant players like Flash and Jaedong and whatnot in SC2, and it's just not fair to try to compare the games because SC2 is still in its infancy. In SC1's infancy, there weren't progamers in other games setting an example for how SC1 players should approach progaming. SC1 pros invented the system that has worked so well. SC2 comes out and we can look at SC1 pros to know how to be the best progamers we can be. If a new musical instrument or sport was invented, it could instantly have training and practice schedules about as good as any other instrument or sport, just by looking at how musicians and athletes generally train. Well, SC2 pros have collectively decided to train sub-optimally and it shows. If you don't have an eye for it, then it doesn't bother you, and you probably doubt that it's possible that anyone can have an eye for such a thing. So if you do have an eye for it, maybe you write an editorial about it, doing your best to explain the phenomenon that is cursing your SC2 spectator experience.
Right. But still, was this really, really needed to be posted and front paged three days before the TSL finals?
As far as I can recall, the thread didn't really go too far into the practise situation in SC2. It touched it, sure, but mainly it was just about how bad SC2 players are in comparison to BW players. The layout of the thread is to first show how bad SC2 players are, and then to show how good BW players are, and throw in quotes from their coaches to prove it.
My take on it is that SC2 right now is the best it can be, however as with almost every other task that any human being's ever done, there will be someone who's better at it sometime in the future.
Is it really valid to call the SC2 scene a farce (once again, right before a TSL finals) because at some arbitrary point in the future there might be players who are better at SC2 than there's now?
To me it just sounds like he's venting, and that doesn't really deserve a first page spot imho, as it just further divides the SC2 and SC:BW communities on the site.
Edit: He also never really speaks from his own point of view. He states everything as fact, not as his opinion, which further increases the flame value as some people don't agree.
Personally I just think it's unnecessary, and something he just as well could've kept for himself. I think it just might cause a few people to lose interest in watching the game and that's about it.
Edit x2: Also he assumes that players can't possibly change things up after a year. The BW stats were taken over a year ago, and are applied to what they are now.
I know I was way worse at SC2 a year ago.. I didn't even play it, but that doesn't mean I'm bad, because I was bad then... I just don't see the logic.
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I also didn't like that Incontrol said that the people who complain about the article are people who didn't experience BW and are new to TL, especially after hearing about the opinion of Artosis.
Artosis twitter message:
"The Elephant in the Room" on TL.net is terribly ignorant. A few stats to prove a wrong point, with no real backstory to these pros.
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EPT
