Auto repairing SCVs are now number one priority when attack moving.
I was wondering why this wasn't implemented. In attacks where, I don't know, a thor is being attack moved into a base and there are 6-8 scvs repairing it, it is very difficult to micro your units to kill the scvs as zerg because of how much damage thors do early game to all your units.
This is compounded by the fact that the scvs get a surround on the thor, disallowing lings to hit it. This one little tiny change would make it much easier to face one thor pushes and mech play where repair is involved. It would also make it harder for terran to repair their walls with autorepair as the A-moving units will attack the repairing scvs first.
It just seems like this is one of the many tiny things that blizzard could fix to make it just a little bit easier to play versus terran.
What do you guy's think about this? You think it'll break the game?
On August 19 2010 14:06 Andtwo wrote: That would be nice but at the same time, I'd start incorporating banelings into your army since they blow up all the SCVs really really fast. That way it also becomes a risk to bring 12 SCVs along for a repair party if half of them get blown up instantly by two blings. Generally the early "thor repair push" comes with marines anyway...
Been there, done that. It works decently good, but I am not quite sure if im comfortable with having to suicide lots of my Blings into the Thors: the collision size of the Thor protects Scvs behind it from the Bling explosion, therefore you have to attack them from several sides to really get those pesky things (this sounds like a minor nuissance, but is often a problem cause the Thor is placed in the mid of the Terran ball).
Having to put gas into a tech (granted its useful in many games, but definitly not all of them) and build units to counter just the basic workers of one race seems rather silly to me. Also there are forms of Thor pushes (Hellion/Marauder/Thor) were Blings are completly inefficient against the army itself and thereby a risky investment.
I don't really get the "micro is good for the game" arguments either, because they are defending one of (if not the one) least micro intense abilities of the game. Autorepair is the OPPOSITE of actual micro. I don't think there should be an priority for repairing SCVs (this could be abused in rather silly ways to lure Units away from their real targets). It would also lead to the opposite result, instead of having your melee units run senseless circles around the Thor they'd be running senseless rounds around the Scvs.
The best solution in this case seems to me to not give any priorities at all - let those units attack the ones they are able to reach and everythings finee. You still have the possibility to use micro to take them out faster and more efficient, but if you have the superior army they will go down anyway at some point in time.
On August 20 2010 02:24 Galleon.frigate wrote: I find it funny how TL was full of "WHERE IS MY MICRO" thread for the beta
and since release its all "GET RIDE OF THIS X SO I DON'T HAVE TO MICRO IT'S TOO HARD"
I say it adds to the skill cap of the game... even if a bw pro wouldn't have to think twice about being able to hand the apm needed, every thing more we automate brings down the fun
If You could micro effectively versus those scvs,cool,let it stay. And it is not fun playing micro intensive vs 1A LOL I WON
I think that they shouldn't be given #1 priority, but should be given a priority if, in ur example, lings cant get a surround on the thor cause of the SCVs repairing it. if they lings cant attack the thor, they should attack the SCVs.
Insane AI does this, if you try to pull an auto repair thor stunt on them, you will get shut down in no time. I don't see why this isn't the standard for multiplayer, especially given the current balance situation.
It's difficult to click on those tiny shits during a battle when you're getting pounded by the Thors or Planetary Fortress with whatever army the Terran has. Making repairing scvs a high attack priority should be a given.
On August 19 2010 13:20 Jawaka wrote: Or, you know, you could attack the SCVs manually.
exactly! even more micro for zerg, when terran needs none!
it's ridiculous. scvs need priority. when a terran is doing a brainless allin a-move push with scvs repairing everything, zerg has to pull off insane upper dia level micro to compete with it.
An easier idea would probably be just to limit the amount of scvs who can repair a specific unit at any one time. Maybe three for a thor, six for a PF, etc. That gets rid of both the surround issue and the "thor + repairz = GodMode" occurrences.
On August 19 2010 13:35 Cyber_Cheese wrote: As a non-terran, i would love to see it, assuming it didnt make my zerglings act retardedly if i were to attack move a wall with an scv repairing it
i wouldnt mind if you had to manually target supply depots. its not too much to ask for, and it solves this silly balance thing.
On August 19 2010 13:28 geno wrote: Insane AI does this, if you try to pull an auto repair thor stunt on them, you will get shut down in no time. I don't see why this isn't the standard for multiplayer, especially given the current balance situation.
Standard can change in the blink of an eye, and in this case, I don't want ppl thor rushing me like that i would lose.
On August 19 2010 13:20 Jawaka wrote: Or, you know, you could attack the SCVs manually.
What an idiotic answer, read the OP. The thor would kill a ton of your troops while you were microing, and even then the thor obscures the scvs!
On August 19 2010 13:35 JPSke wrote: An easier idea would probably be just to limit the amount of scvs who can repair a specific unit at any one time. Maybe three for a thor, six for a PF, etc. That gets rid of both the surround issue and the "thor + repairz = GodMode" occurrences.
I don't want repair to be nerfed, I just want it to be slightly easier to kill scvs repairing a thor.
On August 19 2010 13:35 Cyber_Cheese wrote: As a non-terran, i would love to see it, assuming it didnt make my zerglings act retardedly if i were to attack move a wall with an scv repairing it
Yea guys. Down with terran?! I think Blizzard was trying this out internally so we'll see if it makes it in. My personal opinion is that it would make mech strategies weaker. Since there's a lot of clutch defense situations with repairing scvs barely holding out when terran goes mech. If those situations would cost the terran a lot more scvs, relying on that fast tech to hold out wouldn't be as viable. So if you want to see more bio balls, go for it.
On August 19 2010 13:35 JPSke wrote: An easier idea would probably be just to limit the amount of scvs who can repair a specific unit at any one time. Maybe three for a thor, six for a PF, etc. That gets rid of both the surround issue and the "thor + repairz = GodMode" occurrences.
This is a great idea, and it would eliminate the alamo PF. I'm watching Trump's stream and it's painful to see a single planetary fortress withstand a large roach and broodlord army.
edit: Now that I think more about it, this would also never happen. The amount of scvs repairing a structure or unit won't be limited. I'm still for making repairing scvs a high priority to attack.
On August 19 2010 13:45 Rah wrote: Yea guys. Down with terran?! I think Blizzard was trying this out internally so we'll see if it makes it in. My personal opinion is that it would make mech strategies weaker. Since there's a lot of clutch defense situations with repairing scvs barely holding out when terran goes mech. If those situations would cost the terran a lot more scvs, relying on that fast tech to hold out wouldn't be as viable. So if you want to see more bio balls, go for it.
It really wouldn't make too big of a difference. Most of the time you're wanting to repair damaged units outside of battle, and you should be willing to take the risk to sacrifice those scvs if you want to repair things. I don't think this will have anything to do with Marine Viking Tank or Marauder Tank viking or Tank marine banshee. The three things it'll have an impact on are:
1) Repairing buildings while under attack.
2) Repairing thors while one thor pushing.
Terran is just too strong in tiny little ways, this would be a way to have a subtle fix to some of their more...
Fucking retarded strategies, if I were to put my own words to it lol.
I am alone in wishing units had no priority over what they would attack ? They should just attack the thing closest to them ? I cannot stand when i swarm 30 lings into a mineral line, Attack Move them, just to have them all leave to surround one dumb unit
On August 19 2010 13:45 Rah wrote: Yea guys. Down with terran?! I think Blizzard was trying this out internally so we'll see if it makes it in. My personal opinion is that it would make mech strategies weaker. Since there's a lot of clutch defense situations with repairing scvs barely holding out when terran goes mech. If those situations would cost the terran a lot more scvs, relying on that fast tech to hold out wouldn't be as viable. So if you want to see more bio balls, go for it.
It really wouldn't make too big of a difference. Most of the time you're wanting to repair damaged units outside of battle, and you should be willing to take the risk to sacrifice those scvs if you want to repair things. I don't think this will have anything to do with Marine Viking Tank or Marauder Tank viking or Tank marine banshee. The three things it'll have an impact on are:
1) Repairing buildings while under attack.
2) Repairing thors while one thor pushing.
Terran is just too strong in tiny little ways, this would be a way to have a subtle fix to some of their more...
Fucking retarded strategies, if I were to put my own words to it lol.
I was thinking more like a thor comes out just in time to handle a muta harass or in a rare case banshee harass. Normally the thor would be enough to drive the mutas off with minimal scv kills, with the change the terran would lose a lot of scvs Ding up against that first harass. Meaning thor would be a lot less useful and marines and turrets would be the only option. Offensively is another story but remember those are SCVs that aren't mining and will probably die in the push if the zerg defends properly. So it's still a trade off. A clutch tank being repaired is another example that would be weakened.
On August 19 2010 13:52 Disarray wrote: I am alone in wishing units had no priority over what they would attack ? They should just attack the thing closest to them ? I cannot stand when i swarm 30 lings into a mineral line, Attack Move them, just to have them all leave to surround one dumb unit
this is one of the major things i have a problem with the ai
Bashiok wrote: The game is young, and we don't feel that it would have been helpful to progressing peoples understanding by throwing in tons of fixes based on flavor-of-the-week (or day, or hour) strats
This.
I might add that ultimately, the ability to pull insane micro is what differentiates players. In my opinion the game is already very noob-friendly compared to BW so further dumbing down the game would again lower the skill ceilling and would not be healthy for the pro scene,
As a Z player I don't want to a-move my way to victory. Not exciting nor challenging.
SCVs cannot repair anything that has been hit within the last one second. Breaking walls possible? Bunker rushes less powerful? Thor/Planetary fortress super regen gone?
On August 19 2010 13:45 Rah wrote: Yea guys. Down with terran?! I think Blizzard was trying this out internally so we'll see if it makes it in. My personal opinion is that it would make mech strategies weaker. Since there's a lot of clutch defense situations with repairing scvs barely holding out when terran goes mech. If those situations would cost the terran a lot more scvs, relying on that fast tech to hold out wouldn't be as viable. So if you want to see more bio balls, go for it.
It really wouldn't make too big of a difference. Most of the time you're wanting to repair damaged units outside of battle, and you should be willing to take the risk to sacrifice those scvs if you want to repair things. I don't think this will have anything to do with Marine Viking Tank or Marauder Tank viking or Tank marine banshee. The three things it'll have an impact on are:
1) Repairing buildings while under attack.
2) Repairing thors while one thor pushing.
Terran is just too strong in tiny little ways, this would be a way to have a subtle fix to some of their more...
Fucking retarded strategies, if I were to put my own words to it lol.
I was thinking more like a thor comes out just in time to handle a muta harass or in a rare case banshee harass. Normally the thor would be enough to drive the mutas off with minimal scv kills, with the change the terran would lose a lot of scvs Ding up against that first harass. Meaning thor would be a lot less useful and marines and turrets would be the only option. Offensively is another story but remember those are SCVs that aren't mining and will probably die in the push if the zerg defends properly. So it's still a trade off. A clutch tank being repaired is another example that would be weakened.
True, but the rewards for sending that thor are way greater than the risks. Also, turrets and marines shut down mutas so hard (And are really cheap) that I don't think thors not being able to be repaired as easily will be that big of a deal.
On August 19 2010 14:00 Zombo Joe wrote: Or you could use a spell like Fungal Growth or Psi Storm...
Am I the only one who thought about this?
Right, because toss will always have storm and zerg will always have fungal growth when a thor shows up.
Also, manually targetting scvs with melee units is a pain, because you'd have to have a small number attack each scv or they just dance around like idiots
That would be nice but at the same time, I'd start incorporating banelings into your army since they blow up all the SCVs really really fast. That way it also becomes a risk to bring 12 SCVs along for a repair party if half of them get blown up instantly by two blings. Generally the early "thor repair push" comes with marines anyway...
If you have infestors fungal works as does MC, but infestors are so late game that by the time it gets to that it's rarely a problem.
I'd rather them patch things gameplay and strategy can't overcome. It's fine to have one race be a bit more micro intensive than another anyway (Terran SC1 anyone?)
Edit: the zerglings dancing around like idiots does annoy me when I'm trying to attack a building--but once again this can be overcome by micro
This issue is pretty frustrating. I recently had a game where I had a vastly superior ultra army against a PF and some tanks / marauders / marines. My comp slaughtered the T's main army, then acted completely retarded as his over-saturated expo repaired the PF. I tried to micro 2 ultras against the scv's but found the mass of scv's that couldnt reach the PF constantly interrupted attack commands. The ultras would try to get to the SCV's actively healing the PF but would get stuck as other SCV's blocked by repair access swerved back and forth.
Still, if -all- the ultras went for repairing scvs it might result in other weird behavior, I don't think there is an easy fix.
On August 19 2010 14:06 Andtwo wrote: That would be nice but at the same time, I'd start incorporating banelings into your army since they blow up all the SCVs really really fast. That way it also becomes a risk to bring 12 SCVs along for a repair party if half of them get blown up instantly by two blings. Generally the early "thor repair push" comes with marines anyway...
If you have infestors fungal works as does MC, but infestors are so late game that by the time it gets to that it's rarely a problem.
I'd rather them patch things gameplay and strategy can't overcome. It's fine to have one race be a bit more micro intensive than another anyway (Terran SC1 anyone?)
Edit: the zerglings dancing around like idiots does annoy me when I'm trying to attack a building--but once again this can be overcome by micro
It's retarded(stupid, frustrating, not indicative of skill, unnecessary, superfluous?) to think that you have to micro your heart out against scvs repairing to come out on top. Seriously, if you guys want it to be super difficult for zerg to come out on top versus a Terran's 1A be my guest, I'm just trying to suggest things that would make it overall less frustrating and more balanced.
On August 19 2010 14:14 AlBundy wrote: So you are asking for thought about this matter, then you call people's opinions "idiotic", and "retarded".
Very nice.
Well, you try to micro against a thor rush as a zerg when you've done any fast expand build. It IS retarded. Micro should not be the solution here, it is just an unfair advantage. Not everyone is going to have 300 APM to deal with a thor-scv push, and yes, I am very nice. Think about what you're trying to say here before you say it and READ THE OP. This isn't about "You can micro to kill it." it's about you shouldn't have to micro to kill it.
Listen, TLOBrian, I see your point, I have experienced the situations you described, thors, PFs etc. Very frustrating indeed. But I think auto repairing SCVs having number one priority is a bad idea for the sake of gameplay depth. This is too big of a change this early in the game's life. This may seem shortsighted but it's my opinion.
They should definitely be the highest priority. I do thor rushes tvz all the time with lots of scvs repairing it, and the only times it's been stopped are when it's a large map or when I fuck it up. It's just way too easy for the terran and requires a ridiculous level of micro for the zerg. This would fix the PF being retarded as well.
Think twice before suggesting stuff like this. How long would it be till people complain that their units attack SCV's repairing a Command Center while marines and marauders are happily shooting away at their units.
I mean you can say "it's retarded" to have to split the SCVs to micro them away from the blings repairing the thor when all the zerg has to do is move and not even amove them to kill the SCVs, but that's just the other perspective.
The more SCVs they take with the thor the more allin-ish this is too. Losing 6 SCVs early game with your thor push is huge if they defend. I've given you a viable option of banelings which if you see a ton of marines coming your way you should probably be making anyway. It's not like you can't spot the slow moving thor with SCVs from a long distance nor are banelings a deep and difficult tech path to get it.
I also disagree that in general for every push every aspect of the game the micro/mechanics level has to be completely equal for all the races, but that's more a design philosophy question. Though, I will agree that targeting each and every one of them with say 1 zergling will take a ton of effort/micro which is why I suggest banelings.
You'll be happier as well to find gameplay options of dealing with annoying things than trying to change the game entirely.
On August 19 2010 14:29 AlBundy wrote: Listen, TLOBrian, I see your point, I have experienced the situations you described, thors, PFs etc. Very frustrating indeed. But I think auto repairing SCVs having number one priority is a bad idea for the sake of gameplay depth. This is too big of a change this early in the game's life. This may seem shortsighted but it's my opinion.
I'm just saying throw the other races a bone, it's not that big of a change and just makes the game more fun to play in general in my opinion.
I wouldn't have a problem with it if the terran had ANY MICRO in the game to really do at all besides basic stop and shoot micro. Seriously, tell me a micro intensive unit that terran has thats regularly used..
I agree with you on this part. Early game harassment is all I can think about atm
On August 19 2010 14:29 AlBundy wrote: Listen, TLOBrian, I see your point, I have experienced the situations you described, thors, PFs etc. Very frustrating indeed. But I think auto repairing SCVs having number one priority is a bad idea for the sake of gameplay depth. This is too big of a change this early in the game's life. This may seem shortsighted but it's my opinion.
I'm just saying throw the other races a bone, it's not that big of a change and just makes the game more fun to play in general in my opinion.
Edit: I'm just going to be repeating myself.
It's not even "throwing the other races a bone" the way it works in it's current form is Not Fun At All to play against.
Seriously, tell me a micro intensive unit that terran has thats regularly used.
The reapers' life expectancy and damage potential is greatly (completely?) dependant on the players' micro. Vikings vs. Void Rays, very micro-intensive. The ravens' usage also heavily hinges on the players' ability to keep them alive while serving their job, same goes for the ghost with sniping templar/ infestors before a fight, or even muta's if you have to. Saving your marines from banelings by stim-running a/o spreading them out and tanking with marauders. And ofcourse basic focus-firing of key units like colossi ^^
Sure, tanks are pretty independant if you have them sieged ... doesn't mean that all Terran units are equally destructive without proper control.
I wouldn't have a problem with it if the terran had ANY MICRO in the game to really do at all besides basic stop and shoot micro. Seriously, tell me a micro intensive unit that terran has thats regularly used..
I agree with you on this part. Early game harassment is all I can think about atm
And even then, I just have so much rage about zergs design. Terran has two harass units that overlap the hellion and the reaper BLAH. And it's still stop and shoot micro. And then blizzard decides that banelings and lurkers overlap when they're so different it's laughable...what are they thinking????
Edit: I'm done with raging, talk amongst yourselves.
Edit2: After rereading some of these counterpoints...I'm stupid for responding. They seem like trolling to me, they're just rediculous.
On August 19 2010 14:06 Andtwo wrote: That would be nice but at the same time, I'd start incorporating banelings into your army since they blow up all the SCVs really really fast. That way it also becomes a risk to bring 12 SCVs along for a repair party if half of them get blown up instantly by two blings. Generally the early "thor repair push" comes with marines anyway...
Been there, done that. It works decently good, but I am not quite sure if im comfortable with having to suicide lots of my Blings into the Thors: the collision size of the Thor protects Scvs behind it from the Bling explosion, therefore you have to attack them from several sides to really get those pesky things (this sounds like a minor nuissance, but is often a problem cause the Thor is placed in the mid of the Terran ball).
Having to put gas into a tech (granted its useful in many games, but definitly not all of them) and build units to counter just the basic workers of one race seems rather silly to me. Also there are forms of Thor pushes (Hellion/Marauder/Thor) were Blings are completly inefficient against the army itself and thereby a risky investment.
I don't really get the "micro is good for the game" arguments either, because they are defending one of (if not the one) least micro intense abilities of the game. Autorepair is the OPPOSITE of actual micro. I don't think there should be an priority for repairing SCVs (this could be abused in rather silly ways to lure Units away from their real targets). It would also lead to the opposite result, instead of having your melee units run senseless circles around the Thor they'd be running senseless rounds around the Scvs.
The best solution in this case seems to me to not give any priorities at all - let those units attack the ones they are able to reach and everythings finde. You still have the possibility to use micro to take them out faster and more efficient, but if you have the superior army they will go down anyway at some point in time.
As a terran player i support the repairing scvs change 100%. Ill just get 20 scvs auto repairing one another in front of my mech/bio ball and auto win all games woooohooooo.
Please stop asking for nerf this nerf that. Instead ask for buffs. Ask for some new , interesting , viable strategies to be opened for you. Nerfing everything you cant handle wont make the game better...
On August 19 2010 15:01 sadyque wrote: As a terran player i support the repairing scvs change 100%. Ill just get 20 scvs auto repairing one another in front of my mech/bio ball and auto win all games woooohooooo.
Please stop asking for nerf this nerf that. Instead ask for buffs. Ask for some new , interesting , viable strategies to be opened for you. Nerfing everything you cant handle wont make the game better...
Yeah...like that would even work? Wouldn't all the scvs get insta vaporized? And couldn't I just go back knowing that I killed 20 scvs? Where the hell is the logic here?
I think it would be simple to implement "If scv is repairing this unit, auto target."
I'm not going to ask for buffs to zerg, because it would make ZvP imbalanced, you can't just do that type of shit.
Please try to at least put some work into trolling.
On August 19 2010 15:01 sadyque wrote: As a terran player i support the repairing scvs change 100%. Ill just get 20 scvs auto repairing one another in front of my mech/bio ball and auto win all games woooohooooo.
You are aware of the fact that you could have exactly the same effect with 20 attacking workers atm? The only unit where there really should be a notable amount of difference between an repairing and an attack-moving wall of Scvs are unupgraded Lings...
(even though your technically right, it would be to easy to abuse an repair-priority to lure units away from the real fight - therefore there just should not be any priority involved in this case at all. Repair-Scvs should be equal in regars to your other units and everything would be fine)
i believe it was listed in that set of patch notes that they said was a troll, but i think are actually real. i wouldn't say put them as #1 priority, but def make them a higher target.
On August 19 2010 14:06 Andtwo wrote: That would be nice but at the same time, I'd start incorporating banelings into your army since they blow up all the SCVs really really fast. That way it also becomes a risk to bring 12 SCVs along for a repair party if half of them get blown up instantly by two blings. Generally the early "thor repair push" comes with marines anyway...
Been there, done that. It works decently good, but I am not quite sure if im comfortable with having to suicide lots of my Blings into the Thors: the collision size of the Thor protects Scvs behind it from the Bling explosion, therefore you have to attack them from several sides to really get those pesky things (this sounds like a minor nuissance, but is often a problem cause the Thor is placed in the mid of the Terran ball).
Having to put gas into a tech (granted its useful in many games, but definitly not all of them) and build units to counter just the basic workers of one race seems rather silly to me. Also there are forms of Thor pushes (Hellion/Marauder/Thor) were Blings are completly inefficient against the army itself and thereby a risky investment.
If you're having trouble against the much later hellion/marauder/thor compositions you just don't really have enough stuff (and you have infestors--how do you repair that which you do not own? or fungal them). I said banelings for the early thor pushes with workers. It usually comes with marines anyway. You don't move your banelings into the thors headon (especially if the scvs are behind) you move your blings around/near the thor and then blow them up. Just straight attacking the thor isn't a good idea.
He's saccing a lot of economy to take SCVs off the line to repair that unit, I don't think it's too much to ask for a little gas investment to counter it, especially as thors are a lot of gas. (I do play zerg btw)
After rereading some of these counterpoints...I'm stupid for responding. They seem like trolling to me, they're just rediculous.
You asked a question and I responded, calling everyone that takes the (wasted) effort to give you an answer a troll is just a way of hiding you don't have anything to say when it goes beyond calling something imba. Actually opening another thread about another Terran "imbalance" you spotted with your absolutely unbiased balancing eye of judgement, and then not replying because the others are apparently all trolls ... it's actually you that's trolling .
If you can't handle losing, don't play. Go watch some Power Rangers and yell at the TV about how OP the Megazord is.
On August 19 2010 14:32 Saechiis wrote: Think twice before suggesting stuff like this. How long would it be till people complain that their units attack SCV's repairing a Command Center while marines and marauders are happily shooting away at their units.
SCVs repairing each other as a wall for MM. I can see this getting abused.
After rereading some of these counterpoints...I'm stupid for responding. They seem like trolling to me, they're just rediculous.
You asked a question and I responded, calling everyone that takes the (wasted) effort to give you an answer a troll is just a way of hiding you don't have anything to say when it goes beyond calling something imba. Actually opening another thread about another Terran "imbalance" you spotted with your absolutely unbiased balancing eye of judgement, and then not replying because the others are apparently all trolls ... it's actually you that's trolling .
If you can't handle losing, don't play. Go watch some Power Rangers and yell at the TV about how OP the Megazord is.
You can't fix stupid it seems, trying to get points across and get decent replies with a little bit of thought behind them from a terran is like trying to break down a spiked brick wall with your head, it isn't going to happen.
On August 19 2010 15:01 sadyque wrote: As a terran player i support the repairing scvs change 100%. Ill just get 20 scvs auto repairing one another in front of my mech/bio ball and auto win all games woooohooooo.
Please stop asking for nerf this nerf that. Instead ask for buffs. Ask for some new , interesting , viable strategies to be opened for you. Nerfing everything you cant handle wont make the game better...
are you fucking serious? you idiot terrans with your auto-pilot 60 apm 1 base down syndrome straight to midlevel diamond play need to be dealt with by forcing you to develop some micro. stop embarrassing yourself with your stupid terrible defensive techniques in saying " stop whining" "wtf i still lose so its balanced"....maybe you need to realize you arent even remotely talented.
I just lost about 24 lings to a thor surrounded by SCV's in a league game. Fucking ridiculous. As much as I love sitting there for 5 minutes watching a thor spin around in circles shooting my lings, this is just retarded. It wouldn't be as bad if the thor model didn't block view of all the SCV's, but this needs to be fixed. You can only click on the SCV's around the bottom half of the thor, and thats IF its arms aren't covering them.
Pushing against walls would be annoying because the units would go for repairing SCV's instead of combat units. This could distract from the fact you may be getting hit and need to hit the units that are a threat. And anyway, you can just target them when they start repair. That's Jaedong micro right there.
Same goes for Thors, although the obstruction makes that a lot more difficult. But if your units are going to auto-target SCVs, that will divert them from the damn Thors, which means the SCVs are going to start repairing themselves, and unless you have critical mass, will just let your units get pummeled, which is still an issue from having to micro them in the first place, which may just consist of shift-queuing targets and selecting a group to hit another SCV. This minor change does not sound practical.
Then there is the SCV wall of repair. I'm pretty sure units take priority over getting hit to workers, but if SCV's start repairing, then the rest of the units would just hit you uncontested for a little bit. With battles being so fast, I don't think that's a good thing. And MULE's could make up for the loss of SCV's, unless they were super pro and kept less than 50 energy the whole game.
And while auto-repair may not support micro, neither does this change.
There really doesn't seem to be any more but crying that Terran is too strong and that people don't want to have any bit of dexterity with something that is probably a lot easier than mere ghosting in Brood War.
On August 19 2010 15:01 sadyque wrote: As a terran player i support the repairing scvs change 100%. Ill just get 20 scvs auto repairing one another in front of my mech/bio ball and auto win all games woooohooooo.
Please stop asking for nerf this nerf that. Instead ask for buffs. Ask for some new , interesting , viable strategies to be opened for you. Nerfing everything you cant handle wont make the game better...
are you fucking serious? you idiot terrans with your auto-pilot 60 apm 1 base down syndrome straight to midlevel diamond play need to be dealt with by forcing you to develop some micro. stop embarrassing yourself with your stupid terrible defensive techniques in saying " stop whining" "wtf i still lose so its balanced"....maybe you need to realize you arent even remotely talented.
Lol, if this doesn't get you banned, I don't know what does ^^
Maybe you can explain to me why the examples of micro I gave aren't actually micro, but "auto-pilot". And after that I'd love to hear how Zerg consists of pure micro. K thx.
On August 19 2010 15:34 Wr3k wrote: I just lost about 24 lings to a thor surrounded by SCV's in a league game. Fucking ridiculous. As much as I love sitting there for 5 minutes watching a thor spin around in circles shooting my lings, this is just retarded. It wouldn't be as bad if the thor model didn't block view of all the SCV's, but this needs to be fixed. You can only click on the SCV's around the bottom half of the thor, and thats IF its arms aren't covering them.
Goody, I'm sure you have a replay for us ... right?
This really needs to be implemented! Or make it so they can´t be fully covered by a thor or a flying building or anything else T_T It´s really hard to target them anyway and if they are covered by something it´s nearly impossible.
I would like to point out a flaw in the quote's theory. Repairing SCVs have limited mobility, due to... repairing. So if you would like the player to use more micro to lure the enemy away with puny repair tricks due to this new change in priorities, then so be it. It's for the better.
The Thor + auto-repair scvs are rather imbalanced.
The noob T's will say "just manually target the scvs". But this isn't always working well because the Thor sprite is huge and the scv one is tiny. On top of that, with the whole 3d thing, if the scvs are at the top of the Thor, the Thor will shadow over the scvs' sprite. Furthermore, one race is just auto-repairing and 1a'ing while forcing the other race to micro more intensely while sustaining massive damage from the Thor.
It's so imbalanced I use a 2 Thor + marine rush in half of my TvZs haha.
I think this would be a good change. Since once the scv repair they will be targeted.,this will make terran micro a tad more. Though, if the terran was good he would place an scv behind a thor or something then right click to repair a unit then his opponent entire army would chase it. XD, that would be pretty funny since you'll get pwn to the face.
take wc3 system - if you surround target with units and you make them attack it, then those units, who cant reach the target wouldn't dance side by side like retards, but will attack the closest target to them they can reach, but new blizzard developers are too fucked up to use their own attack system, that worked well, instead they make new, that surrounds everything with a-move, thus this what should players do by themselves. and for those, who think its a good idea to focus probes with lings - they can repair even themselves, so it wouldnt help that much...
I am actually surprised by this thing. Has anyone ever played the brutal campaign? The brutal AI focus fire at repairing scv, medic, medivec and science vessel. I heard that the normal AI doesnt do that (never played normal thu). That means blizzards knows which way is better. Why did not they implement it in multiplayer?
pretty sure attack ai is similar if not the same as in bw. it's just bw didnt have 400hp units and attacking command centers.
has anyone tried hold position micro? it work for barracks + scv + marine walls in bw. i'm hoping that just because a thor is firing at a unit that's on hold position the unit won't bug out and just sit there.
I agree. Workers, if they are not on attack-move, are not given priority. Harass an SCV line and watch all your units bee line for that single zealot in the corner. If the worker attacks, they equal priority to the zealot.
So in the same way, auto-repair should be treated as attack-move and move the SCV up the threat list.
On August 19 2010 17:01 mahnini wrote: pretty sure attack ai is similar if not the same as in bw. it's just bw didnt have 400hp units and attacking command centers.
has anyone tried hold position micro? it work for barracks + scv + marine walls in bw. i'm hoping that just because a thor is firing at a unit that's on hold position the unit won't bug out and just sit there.
Pretty sure you are correct sir, it just wasn't as noticeable in BW for the reasons you stated. I think the correct solution would be diminishing returns on additional scvs repairing. It'd have to work so that the first scv repaired at the rate of 1 HP per second (arbitrary numbers, just an example), then the next scv contributed a rate of 1 HP for ever 1.2 seconds, then the 3rd scv repairing at 1 HP for every 1.4 second etc. Of course blizzard could balance those numbers however they see fit.
I like the idea of attackers prioritizing repairing scvs, the only problem is, I could see this causing some funky AI problems or possibly the opportunity for abusing the AI. What I mean by abusing the AI is; switching back and forth between repairing and not repairing to confuse the attacking units as to what to do.
On August 19 2010 13:20 Jawaka wrote: Or, you know, you could attack the SCVs manually.
Yeah, almost the first thought I had was that complaining about "autorepair being the opposite of micro" and then not microing himself kinda gives away the intention of the OP. If you want to kill SCVs then learn to target them, but putting them as #1 automatically is bad. That makes super fast all-in strategies with 2 Marines and 15 SCVs viable perhaps ... and thats boring.
As a T player, I agree. It really is borderline OP. Making scvs the #1 priority doesn't make sense though. Units should just prioritize the closest threatening combat unit (with repairing scv added to that list).
On August 19 2010 15:01 sadyque wrote: As a terran player i support the repairing scvs change 100%. Ill just get 20 scvs auto repairing one another in front of my mech/bio ball and auto win all games woooohooooo.
Please stop asking for nerf this nerf that. Instead ask for buffs. Ask for some new , interesting , viable strategies to be opened for you. Nerfing everything you cant handle wont make the game better...
are you fucking serious? you idiot terrans with your auto-pilot 60 apm 1 base down syndrome straight to midlevel diamond play need to be dealt with by forcing you to develop some micro. stop embarrassing yourself with your stupid terrible defensive techniques in saying " stop whining" "wtf i still lose so its balanced"....maybe you need to realize you arent even remotely talented.
You dont get the point. I support any zerg buffs suggested. But this one is just wrong. There are so many ways terrans can abuse this change you wouldnt even believe. So stop wasting time "guessing" my level of micro and come up with some usefull changes...
Also learn to use the damn banelings... Go watch FruitSeller wtf pwn really good opponents in 10-12 minutes using baneling centric strategies. Yeah its lame and zerg needs variety...that doesnt mean we need to nerf all kinds of shit cuz you refuse to use banes.
On August 19 2010 17:01 mahnini wrote: pretty sure attack ai is similar if not the same as in bw. it's just bw didnt have 400hp units and attacking command centers.
has anyone tried hold position micro? it work for barracks + scv + marine walls in bw. i'm hoping that just because a thor is firing at a unit that's on hold position the unit won't bug out and just sit there.
To an extent it is the same. The problem lies with things like auto repair and the 3D engine making it impossible to target units. I'd like to see how SC2 plays out without any attack priority -- that is, units attack the closest unit unless attacked by another unit or manually directed to attack something. It'd force more micro, while removing tons of these imbalanced little quirks. They really detract from the enjoyment of the game.
First they should remove auto repair, also blizzard should have 2 attack commands, A move and lets say S move(any unused key) the S move would just not have any priorities meaning units would attack anything close to them, while the A move does have the standard priorities set. I believe it would work pretty good and make one chose between A or S (using any key thinking of S because its next to a).
Probably never going to be implemented but anyways cheers
I don't get why Blizzard put such priorities in the first place. I mean there should be no priorities at all so that you get to kill the nearest opponent. Everytime you put a priority in the AI of a unit, you take away control and stuff like this happens and can be exploited.
Shouldn't you naturally tell you units "Kill the closest enemy unless I tell you to specifically target someone", instead of "Kill this guy! Hydra: Screw you man there is a big badass Thor I need to kill first or some SCVs I need to kill first. I will get to that after I do this, even if I die and you lose because of me".
Its the same thing with Medivacs that are auto targeted and sometimes ignore the real Marine Marauders threat.......
To those (Terrans) who are complaining it will dumb down the game, I am sure most will agree that keeping the AI this way is fine, if you in turn make things like Heal from Medivac, auto-repair and Concussive Shells manually cast. After all, that will make the game more micro and pro-friendly, right?
I kinda like the idea of not having attack priorities at all. Isn't this the way it was in BW? Changing mechanics like this because of the strategies people pick just seems like it might screw us over in the long run.
On the other hand, the OP suggestion is interesting as well. Are there examples of games where this causes an 'unstoppable' problem that would be fixed by this?
On August 19 2010 19:44 edahl wrote: I kinda like the idea of not having attack priorities at all. Isn't this the way it was in BW? ?
There are priorities in sc, although they're not nearly as prevalent. They also lead to some interesting bugs:
This occurs due to priority bug in the sunken ai. Basically the pylon is in range of the sunken, but the cannon is a higher priority unit so the sunken wants to attack that instead. The glitch occurs when the sunken doesn't check if the higher priority unit is in range.
Some more instances of priorities screwing up are workers on ramps/walling off. The units want to attack the ranged units behind them walloff/block, but are to dumb to kill the units in front of them to get there.
The early thor push with auto repair would still be very hard to deal with, it usually comes with marines, hellions, marauders or tanks and by the time you kill all the scv´s your army is gone. The only good "counter" is mass baneling as this unit with auto repair has no weakness when it comes to zvt. I think reverting the NP nerf would be a better idea as blizzard nerfed it before the terran "abuse" really exploded.
Why is it that everyone started thinking autorepair was the problem? The problem isn't autorepair, any idiot can hotkey the scvs and right click the thor the second it takes damage, the problem is what to do when they're repairing.
On August 19 2010 19:52 Osmoses wrote: Why is it that everyone started thinking autorepair was the problem? The problem isn't autorepair, any idiot can hotkey the scvs and right click the thor the second it takes damage, the problem is what to do when they're repairing.
Auto repairing is actually a pretty big deal.. I mean ya any idiot can right click on a thor and tell his scvs to repair... but it's not really that simple. When the thor reaches max HP, your scvs stop repairing and you have to re-click. This becomes a big issue because if you tell them to start repairing too early (after only 5 of so HP is taken) they then finish and just sit there. So without auto repair, you have to time the repair so it doesn't start too early, but also doesn't start too late to save either.
Edit: Not saying I'm against the mechanic.. just making a point that's it's actually a pretty huge mechanic
it seems like a stupid advantage for terran to be able to auto repair, in BW at least you had to select which SCV repairs what, which balanced out the fact that they were the only race that could repair
I say remove autorepair altogether and force some micro on terrans, only then can you be expected to individually target scvs...
all offensive units (including medivac, repairing scv etc) and structures (including turret, manned bunker, planetary fortress) should have the same priority.
medivac high priority is stupid, it makes stalkers and hydra insanely vulnerable because they waste so much time firing at the non-threat units and therefore die before taking out any bio units. especially when the medivacs can be micro'd to the back after soaking a substantial amount of damage.
I think this should be implemented. The problem for me is that the SCVs can be a pain in the ass to see in the middle of a fight. I barely held off a thor timing push yesterday as I didn't notice the 2 SCVs auto-repairing the thor until the rest of his army was wiped out. I even looked for them at the beginning of the fight but couldn't see them in his jumbled mass of units. One was just barely noticeable under his leg and the other was just barely visible under him, as well.
if there is a priority system, there are always complications.
regarding the auto repair issue the problem is obvious and known - scvs autorepair thereby "walling off" the unit or structure they repair. this leads to to an asymetrical distribution of required actions by the players. this should not be the case in an "optimal" scenario. on the other hand if u give autorepairing scvs priority, the terran player could put an autorepairing scv in the back of his army and every attacking unit would try to run around the terran army to finish off this scv. therefor changing the priority is not a solution. (at least to the thor/scv/ling problem)
a third alternative would be to remove prioritys at all like it was already sugested.
On August 19 2010 13:52 Disarray wrote: I am alone in wishing units had no priority over what they would attack ? They should just attack the thing closest to them ? I cannot stand when i swarm 30 lings into a mineral line, Attack Move them, just to have them all leave to surround one dumb unit
but removing all priority would probably lead to units behaving retarded. therefor some priority system is reasonable. for example any unit > any building > rest (e.g. warping-in units, zerg larva or mules). with this approach would be implementing global classes with different prioritys. target choosing within the class might be implemented with a a simple check on the distance to the next target of the actual calss that is prioritized. therefor units do not behave retarded and if a player wants his army to target the "jucy" stuff first, he has to work(micro) in order to do so. furthermore one might add simple modifiers that force units to prioritize entities within a class over others out of this calss if these units are able to attack (e.g. cannons over pylons, spinecrawlers over hatcheries and bunker over depots)
Edit: i think the issue that stuff is done automaticly (autorepair etc) is to be differenciated from the issue what is targeted first by a-moving units. even without outorepair a terran player could tell his scvs to repair a thor and we are back to square one. to comment on this supposedly off topic issue: in my personal oppinion we have moved WAY to far into automated processes in sc2. some of these changes are ok for they apply to all races(e.g. automining). others are just a bad joke (e.g. autorepair or autoslow). but these are just my thoughts.
On August 19 2010 21:21 pSeUd0 wrote: if there is a priority system, there are always complications.
regarding the auto repair issue the problem is obvious and known - scvs autorepair thereby "walling off" the unit or structure they repair. this leads to to an asymetrical distribution of required actions by the players. this should not be the case in an "optimal" scenario. on the other hand if u give autorepairing scvs priority, the terran player could put an autorepairing scv in the back of his army and every attacking unit would try to run around the terran army to finish off this scv. therefor changing the priority is not a solution. (at least to the thor/scv/ling problem)
a third alternative would be to remove prioritys at all like it was already sugested.
On August 19 2010 13:52 Disarray wrote: I am alone in wishing units had no priority over what they would attack ? They should just attack the thing closest to them ? I cannot stand when i swarm 30 lings into a mineral line, Attack Move them, just to have them all leave to surround one dumb unit
but removing all priority would probably lead to units behaving retarded. therefor some priority system is reasonable. for example any unit > any building > rest (e.g. warping in units or zerg larva or mules). with this approach would be implementing global classes with different prioritys. target choosing within the class might be implemented with a a simple check on the distance to the next target of the actual calss that is prioritized. therefor units do not behave retarded and if a player wants his army to target the "jucy" stuff first, he has to work(micro) in order to do so. but thats just my thoughts.
furthermore one might add simple modifiers that force units to prioritize entities within a class over others out of this calss if these units are able to attack (e.g. cannons over pylons, spinecrawlers over hatcheries and bunker over depots)
Although that's a very elaborate and well thought out idea, the problem like you said is with any priorities system, something is always compromised. With no priority system units would just act retarded as you stated.
I still think nerfing repairing scv to have diminishing returns for each additional scv is the most effective solution. I understand lore has no place in balance discussion but picture for a second mechanics working on a car. Would there not be diminishing returns on the speed at which the car was finished being repaired when you compared, lets say 1 mechanic, 3 mechanics, 5 mechanics and 10 mechanics repairing it?
On August 19 2010 13:35 JPSke wrote: An easier idea would probably be just to limit the amount of scvs who can repair a specific unit at any one time. Maybe three for a thor, six for a PF, etc. That gets rid of both the surround issue and the "thor + repairz = GodMode" occurrences.
I'd rather just remove auto-repair then.
On August 19 2010 19:44 edahl wrote: I kinda like the idea of not having attack priorities at all. Isn't this the way it was in BW? Changing mechanics like this because of the strategies people pick just seems like it might screw us over in the long run.
On the other hand, the OP suggestion is interesting as well. Are there examples of games where this causes an 'unstoppable' problem that would be fixed by this?
On August 19 2010 21:35 kidcrash wrote: Although that's a very elaborate and well thought out idea, the problem like you said is with any priorities system, something is always compromised. With no priority system units would just act retarded as you stated.
we need to figure out the one solution that generates the smallest amount of problems and simultaneously distributes these problems equally to all races. its the only way i can think of a reasonable solution to this issue. there is no first best solution here
I think it's ridiculous how SCVs get this great auto-micro, and yet if you have too many speedlings they won't auto-surround but rather just run around stupidly in a bunch. Especially so on buildings, usually you only get 50% surround unless you manually move half your lings.
On August 19 2010 21:35 kidcrash wrote: Although that's a very elaborate and well thought out idea, the problem like you said is with any priorities system, something is always compromised. With no priority system units would just act retarded as you stated.
we need to figure out the one solution that generates the smallest amount of problems and simultaneously distributes these problems equally to all races. its the only way i can think of a reasonable solution to this issue. there is no first best solution here
There's actually a simpler way: make repairing SCVs have the same priority as the thing they are repairing. Priority switches based on actions already happen with workers (think of the difference in targeting between an attacking worker and a mining one), so that's nothing new.
On August 19 2010 22:03 Meff wrote: There's actually a simpler way: make repairing SCVs have the same priority as the thing they are repairing. Priority switches based on actions already happen with workers (think of the difference in targeting between an attacking worker and a mining one), so that's nothing new.
On August 19 2010 21:35 kidcrash wrote: Although that's a very elaborate and well thought out idea, the problem like you said is with any priorities system, something is always compromised. With no priority system units would just act retarded as you stated.
we need to figure out the one solution that generates the smallest amount of problems and simultaneously distributes these problems equally to all races. its the only way i can think of a reasonable solution to this issue. there is no first best solution here
There's actually a simpler way: make repairing SCVs have the same priority as the thing they are repairing. Priority switches based on actions already happen with workers (think of the difference in targeting between an attacking worker and a mining one), so that's nothing new.
I think that this might cause the AI to bug out though and I'll try to explain why through an example, although it may be hard because it's complicated. Let's use zerglings attacking a bunker for an example. The zerglings will always start attacking the bunker before the scvs because the bunker isn't damaged yet. So now one single SCV goes to repair the bunker. Do all of the lings attacking the bunker stop attacking it to kill one SCV? You'd probably have to program it so the ling closest to the scv attacked the scv and the rest kept attacking the bunker.
Blizzard would have to draw a line between how close the zerglings would have be to the repairing scvs before it chose to attack it (the scv), unless you want all your zerglings to stop attacking the main target over 1 single repairing scv.
Remember when the zerglings enter the battleground, it is assumed nothing is damaged beforehand, therefore the #1 priority will always technically be the attacking unit/structure over the scvs. The AI will then have to make a decision as to which zerglings should attack the repairing scvs or which lings should target the attacking unit instead, unless you want all your zerglings to attack even just single scv.
This could probably all be bypassed if units could just mind-read which scvs were on auto repair and which ones weren't, although this would be slightly controversial. Scvs repairing walls would also be another situation where there would be AI issues as well.
Edit: In the end I believe if Blizzard wanted to they could probably program it correctly, and I do believe this is the best method, the question is are they willing to do it?
SCV's should atleast be higher priority then P Fortresses, i mean, it's insane how it is right now with a almost full circle of SCVs around a fortress and your units refuse to attack SCVs and just want to bash the fortress which gets a repair rate of 1000HP/sec
Wouldn't this just encourage terran players to grab 6 or 8 SCVs for an All-in-ish early attack where the SCVS are on auto repair to distract the enemy? If you want to take them out without clicking each one, use AOE attacks. Lings (and units in general) do a lot of "auto-micro" to begin with and I think it's too soon in the game's development to judge whether we need to throw more "auto-micro" in there.
I think bumping off scv's would make their repair ability in battle useless (all they would be would be cannon fodder). Think about the single player map where you steal the odin, try using scv's to repair it on brutal, they will die imediatly, it would be too great of a nerf in my opinion.
Make repairing SCVs higher priority than ONLY Thors and Planetary Fortresses. That or make zergling/ultra AI target SCVs if it can not attack target it is trying to surround.
On August 19 2010 13:52 Disarray wrote: I am alone in wishing units had no priority over what they would attack ? They should just attack the thing closest to them ? I cannot stand when i swarm 30 lings into a mineral line, Attack Move them, just to have them all leave to surround one dumb unit
yeah definitely. I think attack priorities hurt Zerg the most because really all Zerg needs is for all their units to be attacking something. ling runbys are completely nullified by having a couple units nearby, forcing you to manually click each scv/probe in the mineral line
I find it funny how TL was full of "WHERE IS MY MICRO" thread for the beta
and since release its all "GET RIDE OF THIS X SO I DON'T HAVE TO MICRO IT'S TOO HARD"
I say it adds to the skill cap of the game... even if a bw pro wouldn't have to think twice about being able to hand the apm needed, every thing more we automate brings down the fun
On August 20 2010 02:24 Galleon.frigate wrote: I find it funny how TL was full of "WHERE IS MY MICRO" thread for the beta
and since release its all "GET RIDE OF THIS X SO I DON'T HAVE TO MICRO IT'S TOO HARD"
I say it adds to the skill cap of the game... even if a bw pro wouldn't have to think twice about being able to hand the apm needed, every thing more we automate brings down the fun
If You could micro effectively versus those scvs,cool,let it stay. And it is not fun playing micro intensive vs 1A LOL I WON
On August 20 2010 02:24 Galleon.frigate wrote: I find it funny how TL was full of "WHERE IS MY MICRO" thread for the beta
and since release its all "GET RIDE OF THIS X SO I DON'T HAVE TO MICRO IT'S TOO HARD"
I say it adds to the skill cap of the game... even if a bw pro wouldn't have to think twice about being able to hand the apm needed, every thing more we automate brings down the fun
If You could micro effectively versus those scvs,cool,let it stay. And it is not fun playing micro intensive vs 1A LOL I WON
The real issue is simple: It is easier to target fire one thing than many, so why does the one thing have higher priority ? I think every unit should have equal priority, let us micro around what we want to target.
The other part of the issue is that lings tend to run around, all trying to attack one thing, when they could easily attack the closest thing and be that much more effective.
It's just annoying because often the Thor or PF blocks you from actually clickin on the damn SCVs. I'd gladly manually attack those buggers as long as I can freaking see them. 3D is awesome, just not in this case.
Another way to handle this issue is by introducing an "attack unit type" command - ergo, A + ctrl + click SCV with a group of lings, and the lings will prioritize killing all the SCVs on the active game screen before anything else.
I think this is a tricky issue, I could see how it might be okay when it comes to Thor+SCVs and PF, but when scvs are pulled off the line to repair a bunker the guy should have to manually kill them, not automatically.
It has been personally observed that workers have the same attack priority as offensive units only when they are attack moving (remember tvt in beta with 60 hp scvs?). Mining, repairing, moving, or idle workers are second priority.
The easy fix is to bump up repairing units, or even units with auto repair turned on, to have the same priority as attacking units.
On August 20 2010 04:31 gmerc wrote: The easy fix is to bump up repairing units, or even units with auto repair turned on, to have the same priority as attacking units.
On August 19 2010 13:52 Disarray wrote: I am alone in wishing units had no priority over what they would attack ? They should just attack the thing closest to them ? I cannot stand when i swarm 30 lings into a mineral line, Attack Move them, just to have them all leave to surround one dumb unit
You are not alone; I heartily agree.
Adding "priorities" actually makes micro much much harder in SC2, because when we want to go against those priorities, we have to explicitly order the units to switch targets.
On August 20 2010 04:31 gmerc wrote: It has been personally observed that workers have the same attack priority as offensive units only when they are attack moving (remember tvt in beta with 60 hp scvs?). Mining, repairing, moving, or idle workers are second priority.
The easy fix is to bump up repairing units, or even units with auto repair turned on, to have the same priority as attacking units.
Edit: Emphasis on SAME priority.
What would happen if, let's say,scvs were behind a wall being repaired?
IMO if blizzard could program this perfectly it would be great. HOWEVER, if they programmed it to make the AI do retarded things like make lings behind a wall being repaired run around like idiots or do dumb things to bunkers being repaired, I would rather have no priority or possibly some other fix.
But the AI needs to be fixed, if it can't attack something it needs to pick a new target. For instance, if a thor is surrounded by scvs, lings won't just run around all retarded like, they will start to pick off scvs
On August 20 2010 04:31 gmerc wrote: It has been personally observed that workers have the same attack priority as offensive units only when they are attack moving (remember tvt in beta with 60 hp scvs?). Mining, repairing, moving, or idle workers are second priority.
The easy fix is to bump up repairing units, or even units with auto repair turned on, to have the same priority as attacking units.
Edit: Emphasis on SAME priority.
What would happen if, let's say,scvs were behind a wall being repaired?
IMO if blizzard could program this perfectly it would be great. HOWEVER, if they programmed it to make the AI do retarded things like make lings behind a wall being repaired run around like idiots or do dumb things to bunkers being repaired, I would rather have no priority or possibly some other fix.
The absolute exact same thing that would happen if there was even one marine on the other side of the wall......
On August 20 2010 04:49 kidcrash wrote: What would happen if, let's say,scvs were behind a wall being repaired?
IMO if blizzard could program this perfectly it would be great. HOWEVER, if they programmed it to make the AI do retarded things like make lings behind a wall being repaired run around like idiots or do dumb things to bunkers being repaired, I would rather have no priority or possibly some other fix.
IMO that situation is preferable to the current one--focus-firing a building in a wall is more feasible than focus-firing an SCV that is blocked from vision by a unit/building and is extremely hard to select.
On August 20 2010 04:49 kidcrash wrote: What would happen if, let's say,scvs were behind a wall being repaired?
IMO if blizzard could program this perfectly it would be great. HOWEVER, if they programmed it to make the AI do retarded things like make lings behind a wall being repaired run around like idiots or do dumb things to bunkers being repaired, I would rather have no priority or possibly some other fix.
IMO that situation is preferable to the current one--focus-firing a building in a wall is more feasible than focus-firing an SCV that is blocked from vision by a unit/building and is extremely hard to select.
Good point I guess you guys are right, I'm just afraid blizzard would fuck it up some unforeseen way.
i just tried out hold position micro and it works with lings (though it still takes a bit of effort due to collision i think) and works pretty well with ranged units. as long as thor isn't in your units rangethey will auto target the scvs and not bug out like retards in sc1.
Make it a variable priority? For example, If Priority of scv (doing nothing) = 2, Tank = 4 Thor = 5, Zerglings go for 5 (Thor). If Scv repairs Thor, it's priority jumps to 5, so lings attack both scvs ant thor. If scv repairs Tank, Priority of scv jumps to 4, lings still attack thor.
On August 19 2010 21:35 kidcrash wrote: Although that's a very elaborate and well thought out idea, the problem like you said is with any priorities system, something is always compromised. With no priority system units would just act retarded as you stated.
we need to figure out the one solution that generates the smallest amount of problems and simultaneously distributes these problems equally to all races. its the only way i can think of a reasonable solution to this issue. there is no first best solution here
There's actually a simpler way: make repairing SCVs have the same priority as the thing they are repairing. Priority switches based on actions already happen with workers (think of the difference in targeting between an attacking worker and a mining one), so that's nothing new.
On August 20 2010 05:08 EliteAzn wrote: Probably mentioned but...
Make it a variable priority? For example, If Priority of scv (doing nothing) = 2, Tank = 4 Thor = 5, Zerglings go for 5 (Thor). If Scv repairs Thor, it's priority jumps to 5, so lings attack both scvs ant thor. If scv repairs Tank, Priority of scv jumps to 4, lings still attack thor.
HMMMM?
I like this!
voidrays 2, charging voidrays 4, max voidrays 6. and immortals are 5, unless you have more zelots than stalkers, then they are 3.5. And collosus are 5 but only if they have the range upgrade. And if your protoss ground weapons is higher than the zerg carapace upgrade zelots are 1 to zerglings so they know to run away and attack something else... of course seige tanks in siege mode are 10, unless of course the path to them exceeds 15 squares in length, then they are the closest other units priorits minus one, but only to ground units...
On August 20 2010 05:26 XKiller wrote: that would be so bad you could just get like 20 probes and hit atou repair even if you dant have any mech and get less damage done to your army
This is invalid because:
1. Auto attack probes have the same priority as zelots and stalkers in the first place.
2. Its in the game already. Terran scvs will auto repair before they attack even while attack moving.
medivacs apparently have the same priority as other attacking units; scvs that are repairing mechanical units are serving the same function; sounds logical to give them the same priority
I don't even understand how having attack priorities in the game in the first place are beneficial. SCV's should be equal to everything else, and if you want to pick something off specifically you should have to manually target it.
I can't think of one time where I've said to myself, "Man I'm glad my units attacked those marines instead of those mining SCV's."
It should be priority when repairing hostile units: Planetary Fortress, Missile Turrets, Active Bunkers, and any other hostile units.
Edit*
I think melee units need to have a different priority hierarchy than ranged units. Said before, attack-moving a group of Zerglings into a mineral line can be too micro intensive if your opponent's army is engaging the Zerglings. Zerglings are the closest thing to fodder that a unit can come (other than the mighty Baneling)...the least they should be able to do is kill some harvesters before they perish.
On August 20 2010 02:24 Galleon.frigate wrote: I find it funny how TL was full of "WHERE IS MY MICRO" thread for the beta
and since release its all "GET RIDE OF THIS X SO I DON'T HAVE TO MICRO IT'S TOO HARD"
I say it adds to the skill cap of the game... even if a bw pro wouldn't have to think twice about being able to hand the apm needed, every thing more we automate brings down the fun
It is mostly the sc2 people who say the latter, and the bw players who say the former.
I say just remove auto-repair completely
Edit: Also, remove auto surround, it's just plain stupid.
It's probably been said, but it's a lot easier to have to select the giant Thor if that's what you want to target than to select every little SCV which may even be blocked by the Thor.
Please do make repairing SCVs the highest priority so that every terran will do unbeatable all-ins every game with 15 self repairing SCVs coming with the various attacks
On August 19 2010 13:35 JPSke wrote: An easier idea would probably be just to limit the amount of scvs who can repair a specific unit at any one time. Maybe three for a thor, six for a PF, etc. That gets rid of both the surround issue and the "thor + repairz = GodMode" occurrences.
This is a great idea, and it would eliminate the alamo PF. I'm watching Trump's stream and it's painful to see a single planetary fortress withstand a large roach and broodlord army.
edit: Now that I think more about it, this would also never happen. The amount of scvs repairing a structure or unit won't be limited. I'm still for making repairing scvs a high priority to attack.
nah, i'm zerg, but that's no fun for terran. i don't like taking things out that are fun.
On August 20 2010 07:51 Gigaudas wrote: In no way EVER do I want Blizzard to dumb this game down even more.
I'm Zerg and I love the challenge of countering repairing SCVs.
This is the one impulse that is absolutely mind numbingly stupid in the SC community. Some of you demand that the game be poorly designed just so that it is harder. It doesnt matter what your APM is, the current auto repair function is poorly designed. Up to and including the inability to target SCV's that are obscured by the object they are repairing.
On August 20 2010 11:11 Sputty wrote: Please do make repairing SCVs the highest priority so that every terran will do unbeatable all-ins every game with 15 self repairing SCVs coming with the various attacks
I'll take that, 15 free SCV kills every time you attack, that sounds awesome.
the morons saying that auto repair is good but auto targeting is bad are hypocrites. you can't have your cake and eat it too. eliminate auto repair or just give svcs the same priority. it's fucking simple.
On August 20 2010 11:08 Iggyhopper wrote: I can confirm that hold position works. That is, if after you hold, you're actually in range with melee attacks.-.-
The problem with hold position though is that you lose some time before they decide to attack anything, plus if his workers ever decide to a-move, you need to a-move as well, otherwise your lings will keep attacking the Nexus and the probes will kill them 2-3 at a time with their superior surround.
If done to a Thor surround, it's also sketchy because your other lings won't fill the holes when the first ones fall, and they fall fast.
Plus, it's obviously a bad fix to something that serves no purpose in the first place, at least for melee/short ranged units.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.aintitcool.com/images2006/comics/thor+logo.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://a.imageshack.us/img804/1563/bullshit.png)
