EPTNydus chaining starts at 9:00
Using the zealot changeling to block happens almost right away at 7:20
Clever nydus chaining from Korea [youtube]
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epik640x
United States1134 Posts
Nydus chaining starts at 9:00 Using the zealot changeling to block happens almost right away at 7:20 | ||
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Kolvacs
Canada1203 Posts
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Karliath
United States2214 Posts
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GhoSt[shield]
Canada2131 Posts
link:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=143349 | ||
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EoR
Ireland127 Posts
I'm probably wrong. | ||
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silencesc
United States464 Posts
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
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RodKarew
United States53 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 13 2010 05:59 ]Grey[ wrote: Cool as it is, I can't help but think that gas would've been better spent on more roaches. I'm probably wrong. You clearly are.... | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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Adonisto
Canada191 Posts
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archon256
United States363 Posts
Fail. | ||
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LeoTheLion
China958 Posts
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EliteAzn
United States661 Posts
On August 13 2010 05:59 ]Grey[ wrote: Cool as it is, I can't help but think that gas would've been better spent on more roaches. I'm probably wrong. stalkers are soft (pretty soft) counters to roaches, thus the way the game panned out, the nydus canals were a much better choice. | ||
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
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Mike941
United States98 Posts
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:10 a176 wrote: thats not really anything special ... agreed. It only seems special because all the zergs now would rather complain and be depressed rather than try new things. This was actually one of the first things i thought of when i was looking at the new stuff in SC2, but I don't play zerg so i never used it. | ||
Tresh
Argentina68 Posts
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Adonisto
Canada191 Posts
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
This protoss map awareness doesnt extend even to the edges of his own main. | ||
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
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The_Pacifist
United States540 Posts
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
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AyJay
1515 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:00 silencesc wrote: That was beautiful nydusing. Thank you Korea. thank you kungfuukitten *cough*  just find it sort of hilarious that if an american foreigner theorizes it and does it it's "lol that will never work," but when a korean does it a month later it's "lol genius!" @_@ | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:17 Backpack wrote: agreed. It only seems special because all the zergs now would rather complain and be depressed rather than try new things. I assure you, I always make it a point to scout the enemy base with an Overseer for locations to place a Nydus Worm. Especially on maps like Scrap Station where I can also use worms to easily expand to islands and provide an escape route for my drones at the same time. It's just that most of the time good players put Pylons/Supply Depots/Turrets on all the edges of their base. And since Nydus Worms take 20 seconds to build, building a Nydus Worm where the enemy can see it is basically flushing 100/100 down the toilet. On August 13 2010 06:17 Backpack wrote: This was actually one of the first things i thought of when i was looking at the new stuff in SC2, but I don't play zerg so i never used it. Well that explains it. Offensive Nydus Worming really is one of those things that seems cool on paper but will rarely see usage against a good player. Maybe in late-game scenarios where the opponent has 3+ bases and not enough of an army to cover everything. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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dagene
United States75 Posts
e: i think he was just casting a game he played. he didn't mean to show off nydus play or anything. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:30 archon256 wrote: Offensive Nydus Worming really is one of those things that seems cool on paper but will rarely see usage against a good player. Maybe in late-game scenarios where the opponent has 3+ bases and not enough of an army to cover everything. I don't think this will end up being true. In SC:BW, Protoss and Terran could theoretically never do any drop harass once "a good zerg" had scourge on the map and overlords everywhere. But of course pro games are filled with shuttles and dropships wreaking havoc on such zergs. | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
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Rybka
United States836 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:17 Backpack wrote: agreed. It only seems special because all the zergs now would rather complain and be depressed rather than try new things. This was actually one of the first things i thought of when i was looking at the new stuff in SC2, but I don't play zerg so i never used it. Exactly. You don't play zerg, so you don't understand why their proper use is impressive. If only your drop ship attacks gave an audible warning across the entire map that signaled that they were about to drop a huge MM ball in my base (oh yeah, and 20 seconds to react to it)... then, and only then, you might understand haha. | ||
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peachsncream
United States289 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:17 Backpack wrote: agreed. It only seems special because all the zergs now would rather complain and be depressed rather than try new things. This was actually one of the first things i thought of when i was looking at the new stuff in SC2, but I don't play zerg so i never used it. And it works if the protoss player is blind and doesn't keep sight to his main ... as was pointed out a pylon behind the vents is standard. Imagine for a sec that those roaches are an equivalent cost of marauders and each of those worms is a medivac, a protoss that blind would get absolutely destroyed (much worse than with roaches in fact as the marauders with medivacs could straight up destroy the stalkers and get through buildings much much faster). Now imagine the overseer is a warp prism and you have a bunch of gates spamming out speed zealots behind the vents, same result. It's a consequence of extremely poor play from the protoss, not some genius solution to zerg's issues. In fact, the very premise (that he is locked into his main and can do almost nothing about it) is pretty zerg specific, Terran would have the drop option, or they could make a tank and blow cannons up to expand, protoss could at the very least warp things in on the low ground for a surround, or get blink or a colossus. Zerg? has to Nydus to be in any way offensive and it still takes him ages to break the contain (a contain by the way that is very easily set up as Tester showed). Try playing zerg and see how it goes. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
at all | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think this will end up being true. In SC:BW, Protoss and Terran could theoretically never do any drop harass once "a good zerg" had scourge on the map and overlords everywhere. But of course pro games are filled with shuttles and dropships wreaking havoc on such zergs. Drop ships fly in, they don't sit static in the enemy's sight for 20 seconds. Also, drop ships couldn't get killed by workers :/. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:41 peachsncream wrote: ^ nydus are completely useless vs protoss and i dont think i've ever had a zerg last longer than 12 minutes vs me in so i dont see this as possible. zvt abusing mech immobility could really be the only time this is good, but still theres 2 many drawbacks to it that make it unappealing. Hopefully, some1 can find some good uses for it in their strats, but this zerg in the video was a very lower tier player and so was the protoss The use? taking island (or maybe far off gold) expansions fast and being able to save the drones if they get attacked. The very fact that at any level a protoss can just put down 2-3 buildings and the Zerg can do very little about it is somewhat aberrant, spine crawlers are strictly inferior to cannons, cost more (same minerals but the larva is a pain for zerg) and can only sit/be built on creep. It would be less of a problem if the only race that can't really build offensively didn't also have the fewest units and abilities. | ||
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OhJesusWOW
United Kingdom127 Posts
Preparing a Nydus Network and two worms in your own respective expansions costs 350 minerals and 400 gas 90 in-game seconds (at the very least). If that meant saving all of your drones (the capacity to safely transfer drones to and fro on the turn of a second) with a possibility of salvaging your expansions and retain map control, the investment has been well worth it. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:49 Sixes wrote: Drop ships fly in, they don't sit static in the enemy's sight for 20 seconds. Also, drop ships couldn't get killed by workers :/. And your whole army isn't loaded into a dropship Dropships still get in because there's other shit going on. There's never anything else going on with a nydus because your army is poised to enter the worm if it isn't already in it. This game is the kind of thing the "abuse your mobility" crowd will naturally cling to, but the protoss was really fucking stupid to allow it to happen. I think nydus are cool but they arent even as good as medivacs or other random drop harass (medivac is just the most common because you pretty much always have them, it's not some out of the way unit/upgrade) | ||
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dybydx
Canada1764 Posts
its almost like playing All In from campaign. | ||
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:41 Rybka wrote: Exactly. You don't play zerg, so you don't understand why their proper use is impressive. If only your drop ship attacks gave an audible warning across the entire map that signaled that they were about to drop a huge MM ball in my base (oh yeah, and 20 seconds to react to it)... then, and only then, you might understand haha. what does this have to do with my post? | ||
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Jameser
Sweden951 Posts
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
it happened because Trump didn't have vision of his entire main, and then it spiraled out of control with the main and nat being so far apart and the Z picked him apart. There were other factors obviously but the main one is that Nydus worm just was so underused that people don't actively consider it. Just like how people can actually die to DTs in SC2 even though DTs are terrible compared to BW. They are so tremendously underused that if you see a low unit count you are far more likely to assume void ray. If DTs ever become popular, it would stop working immediately. I feel like Nydus suffers from the same thing. Even pre nerf in beta, people began expecting Nydus and shutting it down. If Nydus became standard, it would rapidly become useless again. That's why I just can't consider it anything but a clever idea to pull out of your hat every now and then. | ||
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Therick
Norway324 Posts
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
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RedTerror
New Zealand742 Posts
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cArn-
Korea (South)824 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:47 Sixes wrote: And it works if the protoss player is blind and doesn't keep sight to his main ... as was pointed out a pylon behind the vents is standard. Imagine for a sec that those roaches are an equivalent cost of marauders and each of those worms is a medivac, a protoss that blind would get absolutely destroyed (much worse than with roaches in fact as the marauders with medivacs could straight up destroy the stalkers and get through buildings much much faster). Now imagine the overseer is a warp prism and you have a bunch of gates spamming out speed zealots behind the vents, same result. It's a consequence of extremely poor play from the protoss, not some genius solution to zerg's issues. In fact, the very premise (that he is locked into his main and can do almost nothing about it) is pretty zerg specific, Terran would have the drop option, or they could make a tank and blow cannons up to expand, protoss could at the very least warp things in on the low ground for a surround, or get blink or a colossus. Zerg? has to Nydus to be in any way offensive and it still takes him ages to break the contain (a contain by the way that is very easily set up as Tester showed). Try playing zerg and see how it goes. Completely irrelevant. You do know 1 dropship costs 100/100, same cost as 1 nydus, can only carry 5 marauders (while there is no limit for a nydus), and drop them at a slower rate than a nydus would. Also, you need to fly it all over the map which usually takes around 20 sec too, so there is a high chance the ennemy spots it. Bias at its finest, nydus are a very nice tool. For the drop units thing, all of your overlords do it for the cost of one dropship, there is absolutely no reason to whine about this. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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DemiSe
883 Posts
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andeh
United States904 Posts
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On August 13 2010 07:13 Jameser wrote: zerg shouldn't have thrown all his roaches in that first nydus but instead just sent enough to cause havoc and still guard his base untill he was sure toss army was returning to base, then went in with rest. this way he left himself open to stalkers coming in and sniping nydus worm stalkers do plus damage to roaches so leaving a few behind against a larger stalker force wouldnt be a good idea | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:15 archon256 wrote: No pylon behind the gas vents? Fail. On August 13 2010 06:16 dezi wrote: Just poorly played by the P. This sums up my thoughts quite nicely. Epic fail by the 'toss. | ||
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Opinion
United States236 Posts
On August 13 2010 07:58 Zato-1 wrote: This sums up my thoughts quite nicely. Epic fail by the 'toss. Mistakes are made, the Zerg exploited the mistake. +1 to zerg, -1 for Toss. But you could just blame the Toss for making the mistake instead of complimenting the Zerg for exploiting it... If the Toss played better making less mistakes he would have won! omg game is broken! | ||
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TrueIsAwesome
Finland160 Posts
On August 13 2010 07:24 cArn- wrote: Completely irrelevant. You do know 1 dropship costs 100/100, same cost as 1 nydus, can only carry 5 marauders (while there is no limit for a nydus), and drop them at a slower rate than a nydus would. Also, you need to fly it all over the map which usually takes around 20 sec too, so there is a high chance the ennemy spots it. Bias at its finest, nydus are a very nice tool. For the drop units thing, all of your overlords do it for the cost of one dropship, there is absolutely no reason to whine about this. Nydus costs 250/300 to get the first head out, then 100/100 after that. Healbus heals, which creates one of the strongest synergies in game when combined with stim. No, buying the initial canal is not comparable to Terran buying starport. Healbus can carry 4 marauders. Your point about flying is irrelevant, since spotting the Healbus doesn't do the same kind of damage to the tactic as spotting the nydus does. This is a thread about nydus. I do however agree with droptech being good. Not sure if nydus is ok or not tbh. The cost of it almost makes it an allin and it's pretty damn easy to stop. Everything zerg has is already gas heavy... maaaybbeeee remove the gas cost completely/almost completely and just make it expensive in minerals? 600 minerals to get the first head out, 200 for the rest? :D | ||
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
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SONE
Canada839 Posts
 all-in i guess | ||
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Rodiel
France573 Posts
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Batch
Sweden692 Posts
Perfectly executed hit and runs with few unit losses. He did however seem to totaly forget about his base and the terran player should have been more aware of the nydus worms after the first one had been repelled. It was nice to see some nydus usage even if it wouldn't have worked against a better enemy. | ||
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TrueIsAwesome
Finland160 Posts
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
Why are there so many haters? Didn't you see how he would evacuate his Roaches to the initial nydus and then pop on the other side of the base? How could Protoss deal with that when he has to dance his army back and forth between his base, almost never getting to hit the Roaches? If he split his army, the Roaches would overtake one half, heal and then destroy the other half. If he put up Cannons, that's less army therefore the Roaches would eventually get the army advantage. The Zerg player just outplayed the Protoss player using Nydus Worms. Abusing the mobility of the Nydus Worms in one the things that will surely catch on later on. | ||
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chekthehek
United States279 Posts
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Vokasak
United States388 Posts
Awesome video. The more Nydus play we can get, the better. Changling block is just that extra bit of baller on top. | ||
Chill
Calgary25987 Posts
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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tfmdjeff
United States170 Posts
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Nokarot
United States1410 Posts
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Jenslyn87
Denmark527 Posts
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Ighox
Norway580 Posts
On August 13 2010 09:22 Vokasak wrote: Why do Zerg players dismiss this kind of thing, and then turn around and say their race is boring and underpowered? I get the distinct feeling people are looking for reasons to complain and don't actually care about the solution to their supposed problems. Awesome video. The more Nydus play we can get, the better. Changling block is just that extra bit of baller on top. For the same reason every non-zerg player like you are saying "HEY NYDUS IS AWESOME ABUSE MOBILITY TERRAN PROTOSS TERRIBLE ZERG AWESOME U JUST SUCK". This topic has been discussed so many times it's getting kinda boring. Nydus isn't really horrible or anything, but it's not the final meaning of life answer for zerg or anything like that. It's easy to stop, it can be amazing when it works, and hurt really bad for the zerg when it fails completely. It's risky, you need it to do damage otherwise you are fucked. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
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omnigol
United States166 Posts
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sNes.
United States377 Posts
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
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Slakter
Sweden1947 Posts
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
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psion
106 Posts
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Phayze
Canada2029 Posts
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On August 13 2010 10:30 oddeye wrote: wtf you don't need creep to nydus? lol Lol, that would make it completely useless... | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
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HowardRoark
1146 Posts
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On August 13 2010 10:20 omnigol wrote: This is new and original and has nothing to do with the toss player not scouting and letting a changling block his entire army. American does it -> lol gimmick Korean does it months later -> genius and innovative. *bashes head against wall* | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
yeah right | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On August 13 2010 11:46 heishe wrote: so this is so good why exactly? because the toss failed to destroy the nydus before it finished (which can easily be done with workers)? yeah right Smart nydus placement forces your opponent's army out of position so you can either get a money nydus in that does big damage or splits up their army so your forces gain a positional advantage in an attack. Smart placement also includes putting worms sufficiently away from worker lines so that your opponent needs to commit forces or suffer a significant economic hit to deal with the threat. | ||
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Sylvr
United States524 Posts
How about this: Attack with your army. While that battle is going on, macro up whatever additional forces you can rallied to the Nydus and start a worm in their base (or at an expo). There is a decent chance they'll either be distracted and not see the Nydus, or, if they do see it, they might not be able to do anything about it. After or during said battle, put some units in his base. It's always going to be a gamble, just like every other strategy and tactic in the game. Your goal is to find ways to raise the probability of success of said strategy/tactic. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
If you manage to split up your opponents army with nydus worms because he thinks he has to rush there with a ton of combat units just to prevent the enemy from getting inside his base, well then you're playing against a noob. But yes, currently that might work with a lot of players, as a lot of those "'Top Terrans" and "Top Protoss" are just one-basing noobs who will get felted once a few balance patches come out (or the expansions). Against non-retarded opponents who know a little bit what they're doing, it simply won't work. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
zvt nice mindcontrol and nydus abuse from orly(nydus playin starts @ 8 min) | ||
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