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On August 12 2010 07:34 Qikz wrote:
Mules shouldn't have a cooldown, you shouldn't punish a Terran for not using Mules, especially when it's late game especially in TvT when you're both on like 5 bases all saturated there's just no reason to spend your energy during some points of the game, even on scans as you can generally see most of the map with scouting units.
lolol. Really? Shouldn't punish a Terran for not using mules? That's such a bad argument. Then you use lategame TvT as a reason? Bahahaha Terrans just argue against anything that would make them harder to play at low levels but of similar power at higher levels.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Edit: Reopened after some internal discussion.
edit2: I think literally every suggestion is bad except the roach one but cool to come up with it, really like it.
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To those saying its too overboard, I really dont know where your coming from. Look at tournament results and the amount of players playing zerg. Theres obviously something wrong with the game not just in a balance standpoint, but micro and macro are pretty much lost for Terran and with these changes I've applied it would dramatically increase the skill gap for Terrans and in general in TvZ . I pretty much just made TvZ in Sc2 more like TvZ in BW. There really is nothing major in here instead of taking what worked in BW and applying it to SC2.
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Agree with most of the changes. Wouldn't mind worse turrets if they cost 75minerals. Other than that i just feel like the reduced splash on Seeker Missile is pretty uncalled for.
I would be really psyched to test the game with these changes. Is it possible for anyone to make a custom map with these changes implemented?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2010 08:40 KenShi wrote:
To those saying its too overboard, I really dont know where your coming from. Look at tournament results and the amount of players playing zerg. Theres obviously something wrong with the game not just in a balance standpoint, but micro and macro are pretty much lost for Terran and with these changes I've applied it would dramatically increase the skill gap for Terrans and in general in TvZ . I pretty much just made TvZ in Sc2 more like TvZ in BW. There really is nothing major in here instead of taking what worked in BW and applying it to SC2.
The major thing that "worked in BW" and doesn't apply to SC2 is the ability for zerg to go hatch-first, which is what the entire zerg economic model in SC1 was based on. Given the drastic impact that any changes that allow this would have on the mid-game, it would be best to wait on mid-game changes until the early-game is sorted out. More than likely is that once zergs can 13hatch or 14hatch safely, a lot of their problems go away, and the changes needed to balance what's left should be relatively minor.
Designing Zerg to be at a disadvantage early, and then be comparatively powerful later on when playing catch-up is bad design.
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Pretty much a whole bunch of needless and bad suggestions except MAYBE the roach ones.
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On August 12 2010 09:02 oxxo wrote:
Pretty much a whole bunch of needless and bad suggestions except MAYBE the roach ones.
Tell me why
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I'm glad op doesn't work for blizzard.
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On August 12 2010 09:04 Kilseo wrote:
I'm glad op doesn't work for blizzard.
Im glad that pretty much every single post that disagrees with me is posting 1 sentance garbage like this with nothing supporting there opinion. Tell me why you wouldn't want me to work for blizzard.
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On August 12 2010 08:40 KenShi wrote:
To those saying its too overboard, I really dont know where your coming from. Look at tournament results and the amount of players playing zerg. Theres obviously something wrong with the game not just in a balance standpoint, but micro and macro are pretty much lost for Terran and with these changes I've applied it would dramatically increase the skill gap for Terrans and in general in TvZ . I pretty much just made TvZ in Sc2 more like TvZ in BW. There really is nothing major in here instead of taking what worked in BW and applying it to SC2.
You just do massive nerfs across the board for T and don't really take into account how any of it would affect TvP/ZvP.
I mean really, a Dark Swarm-esque ability would break the game at so many levels. That ability was by far the most game-changing ability out there and the game has been balanced without it in mind. Not only that, any nerf to Thor AoE damage makes Marines the only practical anti-Mutalisk unit, which can give Z the free win with Muta/Bling almost every game.
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On August 12 2010 09:08 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 08:40 KenShi wrote:
To those saying its too overboard, I really dont know where your coming from. Look at tournament results and the amount of players playing zerg. Theres obviously something wrong with the game not just in a balance standpoint, but micro and macro are pretty much lost for Terran and with these changes I've applied it would dramatically increase the skill gap for Terrans and in general in TvZ . I pretty much just made TvZ in Sc2 more like TvZ in BW. There really is nothing major in here instead of taking what worked in BW and applying it to SC2. You just do massive nerfs across the board for T and don't really take into account how any of it would affect TvP/ZvP. I mean really, a Dark Swarm-esque ability would break the game at so many levels. That ability was by far the most game-changing ability out there and the game has been balanced without it in mind. Not only that, any nerf to Thor AoE damage makes Marines the only practical anti-Mutalisk unit, which can give Z the free win with Muta/Bling almost every game.
Massive nerfs? Pretty much an overstatement in every regard. Looking at Terran tourny results and ladder info it pretty much is making them where they should be? I also buffed certain things for Terran and nerfed things that are used against in Terran MU's. An INCREDIBLY nerfed darkswarm abillity would not be groundbreaking at all. It helps zerg to punish turtling Terran and Robo heavy builds from Protoss. Also you have to remember there is NO CONSUME.
Also marines only practical anti air unit? What are you talking about? Thor,marine,viking,turret, and again a buffed Raven. Just because it doesn't completely dominate mutalisks doesn't mean its not practical.....
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I don't like very many of these changes. If I'm going to change anything about Terran it will start with stim(difference between a fight with and without using it is just way too huge) and EMP(vs Protoss).
For Zerg the Infestor already has enough useful abilities, don't want to give them another ability. If you were going to give this ability to something I'd say give it to Overseer.
I'd be down with making the Protoss charge/blink upgrades faster or cheaper.
It is too early to really worry about balance though, at the pro level all the races are being very competitive in the tourney's. This patch would bring way too many changes at once, with an RTS you want to make frequent small changes and not a bunch of big changes all at once.
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On August 12 2010 09:18 KenShi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 09:08 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 12 2010 08:40 KenShi wrote:
To those saying its too overboard, I really dont know where your coming from. Look at tournament results and the amount of players playing zerg. Theres obviously something wrong with the game not just in a balance standpoint, but micro and macro are pretty much lost for Terran and with these changes I've applied it would dramatically increase the skill gap for Terrans and in general in TvZ . I pretty much just made TvZ in Sc2 more like TvZ in BW. There really is nothing major in here instead of taking what worked in BW and applying it to SC2. You just do massive nerfs across the board for T and don't really take into account how any of it would affect TvP/ZvP. I mean really, a Dark Swarm-esque ability would break the game at so many levels. That ability was by far the most game-changing ability out there and the game has been balanced without it in mind. Not only that, any nerf to Thor AoE damage makes Marines the only practical anti-Mutalisk unit, which can give Z the free win with Muta/Bling almost every game. Massive nerfs? Pretty much an overstatement in every regard. Looking at Terran tourny results and ladder info it pretty much is making them where they should be? I also buffed certain things for Terran and nerfed things that are used against in Terran MU's. An INCREDIBLY nerfed darkswarm abillity would not be groundbreaking at all. It helps zerg to punish turtling Terran and Robo heavy builds from Protoss. Also you have to remember there is NO CONSUME. Also marines only practical anti air unit? What are you talking about? Thor,marine,viking,turret, and again a buffed Raven. Just because it doesn't completely dominate mutalisks doesn't mean its not practical.....
The ladder? You mean how there is ONE Terran in the top five, along with two zergs? Or do you mean anecdotal experiences? Tourney results are so variable as to not even matter. Population is also a stupid number, considering the campaign is Terran. If I just picked up the game, I'm definitely going to play the race I spent the entire campaign playing, or maybe the race the side campaign focused on. I'm certainly not going to try the race that has super wierd mechanics. And yes Dark Swarm would break the game. Hell, IdrA called it game breaking in BW. Then again, he was Terran in BW. Infestors are not defilers. Infestors are Tier 2. Zerg has limited issue with Protoss; arguaply ZvP is the most balanced matchup right now.
Calling Ravens anti air is like calling infestors or Templar anti air. But yes Thors, marines, vikings and turrets are viable, but in COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WAYS. Marines provide a mobile ground anti air, vikings a mobile aerial anti air. Thors provide a slow crawling anti mutalisk, that supports other anti air. Turrets are the critical part of mech anti air, and, obviously, can't move.
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Since this is no longer beta, I'd like to see small, surgical balance changes such as the following, rather than large sweeping changes:
- Burrow automatically researched up reaching lair (similar to overlord generate creep)
- Reduce cost of lair from 150/100 to 100/100
- Reduce spine crawler build-time by 15 seconds
- Allow roach speed upgrade to be researched at hatchery tech level
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You're also forgetting the biggest balance consideration: the maps. The reason tournaments are skewed is that, with a few small exceptions, they use the Blizzard map pool, which is terrible. Once we get better maps, we can talk more about balance.
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Massive nerfs? Pretty much an overstatement in every regard. Looking at Terran tourny results and ladder info it pretty much is making them where they should be? I also buffed certain things for Terran and nerfed things that are used against in Terran MU's. An INCREDIBLY nerfed darkswarm abillity would not be groundbreaking at all. It helps zerg to punish turtling Terran and Robo heavy builds from Protoss. Also you have to remember there is NO CONSUME.
You did (arguably) two buffs to Terrans, neither of which would make much of a difference. A lot of your nerfs were also just randomly nerfing stuff that doesn't need it at all and doesn't even have a big effect on the game. I mean really, nerfing Auto Turrets?
Also, it's pretty obvious that this would still be an incredibly powerful Dark Swarm. The game was balanced with any type of Dark Swarm in mind, and then to just throw in a 50% reduction. Would completely change both match ups so radically that it would be like a whole new beta phase.
Also marines only practical anti air unit? What are you talking about? Thor,marine,viking,turret, and again a buffed Raven. Just because it doesn't completely dominate mutalisks doesn't mean its not practical.....
Vikings are a joke against Mutalisks. Removing Thor AoE would make them a joke as well. They hit for a bunch? Doesn't matter with an incredibly slow attack speed against one target with the possibility of overkill. Turrets aren't practical either seeing as they're stationary. Oh, yay, I can turtle up my base. Too bad I can't actually ever be aggressive against mass Muta/Bling.
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On August 12 2010 09:35 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 09:18 KenShi wrote:On August 12 2010 09:08 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 12 2010 08:40 KenShi wrote:
To those saying its too overboard, I really dont know where your coming from. Look at tournament results and the amount of players playing zerg. Theres obviously something wrong with the game not just in a balance standpoint, but micro and macro are pretty much lost for Terran and with these changes I've applied it would dramatically increase the skill gap for Terrans and in general in TvZ . I pretty much just made TvZ in Sc2 more like TvZ in BW. There really is nothing major in here instead of taking what worked in BW and applying it to SC2. You just do massive nerfs across the board for T and don't really take into account how any of it would affect TvP/ZvP. I mean really, a Dark Swarm-esque ability would break the game at so many levels. That ability was by far the most game-changing ability out there and the game has been balanced without it in mind. Not only that, any nerf to Thor AoE damage makes Marines the only practical anti-Mutalisk unit, which can give Z the free win with Muta/Bling almost every game. Massive nerfs? Pretty much an overstatement in every regard. Looking at Terran tourny results and ladder info it pretty much is making them where they should be? I also buffed certain things for Terran and nerfed things that are used against in Terran MU's. An INCREDIBLY nerfed darkswarm abillity would not be groundbreaking at all. It helps zerg to punish turtling Terran and Robo heavy builds from Protoss. Also you have to remember there is NO CONSUME. Also marines only practical anti air unit? What are you talking about? Thor,marine,viking,turret, and again a buffed Raven. Just because it doesn't completely dominate mutalisks doesn't mean its not practical..... The ladder? You mean how there is ONE Terran in the top five, along with two zergs? Or do you mean anecdotal experiences? Tourney results are so variable as to not even matter. Population is also a stupid number, considering the campaign is Terran. If I just picked up the game, I'm definitely going to play the race I spent the entire campaign playing, or maybe the race the side campaign focused on. I'm certainly not going to try the race that has super wierd mechanics. And yes Dark Swarm would break the game. Hell, IdrA called it game breaking in BW. Then again, he was Terran in BW. Infestors are not defilers. Infestors are Tier 2. Zerg has limited issue with Protoss; arguaply ZvP is the most balanced matchup right now. Calling Ravens anti air is like calling infestors or Templar anti air. But yes Thors, marines, vikings and turrets are viable, but in COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WAYS. Marines provide a mobile ground anti air, vikings a mobile aerial anti air. Thors provide a slow crawling anti mutalisk, that supports other anti air. Turrets are the critical part of mech anti air, and, obviously, can't move.
What are you talking about? I dont know what ladder your on, but pretty much all ladders are 40% terran 40% protoss and 20% zerg. Tourney results are so variable it doesnt matter? What kind of arguement is that? I guess we should just disallow the facts that Terran are winning and placing incredibly high compared to Zerg and even Protoss in the highest caliber of games..... No people are not playing Terran because its what the campaign is based off of its because its very easy to play and is right now flat out better then zerg.
Did you even read the change for dark swarm? I pretty much made it into an incredibly nerfed dark swarm so that its viable for a tier 2 unit in this game. I cant call ravens anti air? I guess i couldn't call irradiate anti air in broodwar, i guess storm isnt anti air, heck i guess i cant call something that does a large amount of damage with AoE anti air. I dont even know what your getting at in the last part of your paragraph because it makes no sense what so ever as you didnt complete your thought~
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On August 12 2010 09:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +
Massive nerfs? Pretty much an overstatement in every regard. Looking at Terran tourny results and ladder info it pretty much is making them where they should be? I also buffed certain things for Terran and nerfed things that are used against in Terran MU's. An INCREDIBLY nerfed darkswarm abillity would not be groundbreaking at all. It helps zerg to punish turtling Terran and Robo heavy builds from Protoss. Also you have to remember there is NO CONSUME.
You did (arguably) two buffs to Terrans. Also, it's pretty obvious that this would still be an incredibly powerful Dark Swarm. Show nested quote +
Also marines only practical anti air unit? What are you talking about? Thor,marine,viking,turret, and again a buffed Raven. Just because it doesn't completely dominate mutalisks doesn't mean its not practical.....
Vikings are a joke against Mutalisks. Removing Thor AoE would make them a joke as well. They hit for a bunch? Doesn't matter with an incredibly slow attack speed against one target with the possibility of overkill. Turrets aren't practical either seeing as they're stationary. Oh, yay, I can turtle up my base. Too bad I can't actually ever be aggressive against mass Muta/Bling.
It depends about what we're talking about. Agressive bio or bio mech? Yes that's an issue. Pure mech? No, you're creeping slowly with lots of turrets. Thors can already be taken down by as few as four mutas properly spread/microed. At some point people will figure that out. But yeah Thors fire four missiles at a time, relatively slowly. If you made the change, you'd have to have them fire one after another relatively quickly. And vikings are OK against mutalisks, more as a support to marines/thors/turrets than anything until late game.
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Tech Lab - 10 seconds? I would be game. I may be a zerg player, but it would mean less of a headache over the reaper/marauder proxy.
Mule - I like this. If I have to hit my queen every 40 seconds, and toss has to actually boost every 20 seconds, why shouldn't terran have a time requirement. True, they are more micro oriented, but so much of this micro (i.e. stims) is nothing more than a button press.
Conc Shell - Just leave it as is. All you are doing is slightly hurting the better microers (will just manually cast it to kite) while greatly hurting the lesser players.
Hellion - No. This change is not needed. You would be hurting harass and buffing a unit that does not need buffing for normal combat. You want a versatile anti-ground unit, try marauder or marine.
Thor - Dear god no. Thors dealing 200 damage per shot? This means they could 1 shot brood lords with upgrades. Thor is an awesome anti ground unit with decent anti air. This change would most likely turn a great number of T games into mass thors.
Turrets - Why does this need to change? Even without turrets, muta harass is easy to deal with. Void rays would not take as much damage while charging, and phoenixes would have an easier time harassing, but aside from that, nothing would change.
Raven - Buffing/nerfing one spell on an easily sniped, expensive, high priority target unit will not make it better.
Auto Turret - Meh. Have not played around with this long enough to comment.
Viking - How would this change anything? IIRC, 8 range is still longer than any other air unit (air to air that is) in the game. This is just an undeeded change imo.
Sensor Tower - Why do they need to be not as good? This is just a security blanket for terran as it is. Making it worse would take even that away.
Bunkers - I do not see much salvage outside bunker rushes, which I have not seen properly executed. So meh, this one does not matter to me.
Roaches - Zerg cannot be a threat early game, even with this change. All this does is lower the supply slightly, lower the larva cost, and mess up timings in ZvZ. No thanks.
Infestor - Not needed. This big "omg mech is OP" thing comes from a map pool of small maps. On an overseer this might be nice, but infestor already has 3 good abilities. No need to make the energy starvation worse.
Banelings - Just means I need to make more banelings against marines. Again, no thanks. With lag the way it is, either you are able to escape banelings completely, or not at all. This just makes me build more of an already fairly expensive unit. And it messes up ZvZ's current state (though i can be argued this is a good thing).
Corruptor - I would not mind this at all.
Creep - Leave as is. No need to mess with this. It is not like it is hard to spread creep at an insane rate as it is.
Feedback - I have yet to see a toss feedback any of my units. No comment.
Archon - Dear fucking god no. Zerg already have problems dealing with a non-light non-armored splash damage dealing mini-tank. No need to make archons even more effective.
Charge - Meh, I would have to see this in play. I do not care about charge either way since it just means zealots get in range of my roaches more quickly.
All in all, a few good ideas, but mostly not needed.
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The number of players who play Zerg has nothing to do with balance. You would have to make Zerg grossly overpowered to get them up to the same % as Protoss and Terran. If that is your measuring stick for deciding who needs buffs you are looking in the wrong place.
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EPT
