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On July 14 2010 18:54 Inori wrote:
People complaining about QA should realize that we (you, him, me) are in fact the QA. This is beta test. We are participating in it. We should be looking for bugs and reporting them. Playing the game is secondary.
Most people think beta test means unrestricted demo version.
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On July 14 2010 20:01 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 18:54 Inori wrote:
People complaining about QA should realize that we (you, him, me) are in fact the QA. This is beta test. We are participating in it. We should be looking for bugs and reporting them. Playing the game is secondary. Most people think beta test means unrestricted demo version.
Ofcourse betatesting also includes playability. Wouldn't the Betatesters play, there would be no statistics blizzard could go 4 extracting data for concluding changes out of.. etc.
The point i m trying to bring to light: Betatesting includes reciprocity! It s pretty unreal .. trying to say, "u should be happy, there is no reason to get pissed off, if u get disconnected out of nowhere without any informations backing this up ..!", is a bit too onesided.
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On July 14 2010 18:20 lew wrote:
Why are people acting like blizzard is making terran OP? Blizzard is known for making their games balanced so why would they make terran imbalanced? If something is OP then they will nerf it.
Blizzard nerfed mech immediately when it became popular (thor, helion and tanks got a nerf). They made the marauder shells an upgrade when the marauder became too strong. Do you really think that they will not do something about terran when they are OP?
Balanced would be removing the concussive shells altogether. It's not an ability that adds anything to the game.
Takes no skill using it. A no brainer upgrading it for 50/50. Creates the illusion that terran players are actually pulling off *amazing* micro, when infact it's easy as hell, concussive shelled units are basically queens off of creep. A major pain in the ass for the opponent who has to micro 5 times harder to not fuck up and hopefully at least come out even after the encounter.
Don't get me started on Medivacs. They fucking nerfed burrowed roach regeneration rate, when terran have their own roach (MARAUDER) with higher range, slowing attack (concussive shells), more damage, and when healed by a medivac: 3 times the regeneration rate of a burrowed roach!
So terrans are basically walking around with superranged roaches with concussive shells, healing at 13.5hp/sec. How hard is it really to be cost efficient with that set up?
And mech, let's not go there. The amount of micro it takes for the opponent to even stand a chance beating mech is incomparable to the abysmal amount of micro involved on the terran part. With enough practice, anyone can set up and leap frog a dozen tanks in a push and watch the AI do the rest.
While the zerg has to think about: the timing to start producing units, unit mix reacting on terrans units, flanks, counter attacks, drop research/overlord speed upgrade timings, muta switch timing, constantly re-rallying all bases due to sick tank range, saving or abandoning main, refugee style or charge the terran blob? Also need to find time to macro somewhere in there, while constantly thinking about tech switching.
Basically there is no way of practising any specific build as a zerg. You merely react. In every case you react to what the terran does. His moving out is the cue for the counter attack. No way for a counter attack? Tough shit, hope you guessed right and timed the drop research well. Actually demolishing a terran main army blob of any composition in a straight on confrontation? Might work 2/10 or 3/10 times, at best, all depending on how well you guessed, i.e. how well your tech tree actually fits to what's moving out of the terran base.
The games I win against terrans probably average 35minutes. And they're all after epic and heroic amounts of effort. It's probably been 3-4 patches since I won a game vs a terran in less than 15 minutes (a game not involving baneling bust all-in). There is a huge discrepancy in the amount of effort involved winning a game of ZvT as compared to winning a game of TvZ. Lots of noob players beat me easy all the time. They got no mechanics whatsoever but that don't really matter. Me and the rest of the zergs have to make at least 2-3 educated guesses each game. If we happen to guess wrong it's basically gg, game over just like that. If we happen to survive, it usually turns into an ugly 30-40 minute game where we just barely stay above water while being tormented because our opponents are fucking noobs that don't know how to finish us properly. Attacking a terran or trying to take the initiative in any offensive fashion at this point is impossible. The utterly skillful concussive shell ability sees to that if the terran opts for bio. Mech... yeah pretty much suicide attacking a terran sitting in his base.
It's tormenting as hell. Because you don't have any unit that let's you make a comeback. That let's you take the initiative if you're the better player. A unit like the defiler for example. I've never seen a zerg make any sort of awe inspiring comeback against a terran. It just doesn't happen. I've seen a million terrans get lucky with zergs overextending themselves against marauders, or accidentally clumping mutas together too much vs 2 thors who instantly blast them out of the sky, or failing miserably to break a relatively "weak" push involving tanks. There is soooo much room for error on the zerg side it's not even funny.
Needed to rant about this. I've been playing the sickest games where I've made some of the sickest moves I've ever made in SC2. Burrow banelingbombing marines in the hundreds repeatedly, tech switching perfectly to mutas vs marauder heavy armies, counter attacking like a god, dropping simultaneous locations like a multitasking god. Yet after 40 minutes of blood, sweat and tears some mechanically inferior terran idiot, not in the least straining himself -- to whom this was "just another game", rolls into my base after I've finally made 1 mistake. Because I'm Zerg, that mistake is irreperable. GG.
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terran is nowhere near as imba as you'd think from listening to the zerg whiners.
it reminds me of all the crybaby whiners from world of warcraft. where after every nerf/buff tens of thousands of whiners come out of the woodwork.
this generation of gamers are mostly spoiled brats who rage about every defeat and decide to productively go crying to blizzard.
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On July 14 2010 20:11 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 18:20 lew wrote:
Why are people acting like blizzard is making terran OP? Blizzard is known for making their games balanced so why would they make terran imbalanced? If something is OP then they will nerf it.
Blizzard nerfed mech immediately when it became popular (thor, helion and tanks got a nerf). They made the marauder shells an upgrade when the marauder became too strong. Do you really think that they will not do something about terran when they are OP?
Lots of crying.
That's not even close to reality. Z is insanely strong against bio play (1a2a with ling/baneling/muta), and the roach which you happen to mention is probably the worst zerg unit against anything atm, and thanks to banelings still being OP and fungal growth being the best spell in the game, T bio is simply not viable most of the time and you HAVE to go mech to not lose.
Mech is actually balanced now and the epic games you play are clear indicator of that.
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I think it's just a bit frustrating if you, as zerg, macro like a god, never miss any larva injection, perfect scouting etc., and your opponent is a "HEARP DERP I WALL OF MY MAIN, CAMP, BUILD 3 TANKS 1 TOR, SOME MARINES / RAUDERS, TAKE A NAP FOR 5MIN, AND AFTER I A-CLICK TO HIS MAIN AND WIN, ME SO PRO" and you lose horrible to such an 40 apm noob?
Maybe better maps could change this problem without actually changing much on the balance side, because i think all maps utterly SUCK. They are small as hell, little good fighting spaces, extremely close for rushing distance and those fucking nearly unbeatable timing-pushes sometimes.
Would also add some key elements back into the game, like harassing (don't see many harassing
scenes at all)
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I lost about 5 straight last night as terran. It's true that these games were against high diamond (and I'm low diamond) but I'm pretty sure that implies balance. Counters exist for everything and it isn't as bleak as some make it out to be.
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On July 14 2010 20:11 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 18:20 lew wrote:
Why are people acting like blizzard is making terran OP? Blizzard is known for making their games balanced so why would they make terran imbalanced? If something is OP then they will nerf it.
Blizzard nerfed mech immediately when it became popular (thor, helion and tanks got a nerf). They made the marauder shells an upgrade when the marauder became too strong. Do you really think that they will not do something about terran when they are OP?
Because you don't have any unit that let's you make a comeback.
Ultralisks are pretty good now.
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On July 14 2010 20:11 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 18:20 lew wrote:
Why are people acting like blizzard is making terran OP? Blizzard is known for making their games balanced so why would they make terran imbalanced? If something is OP then they will nerf it.
Blizzard nerfed mech immediately when it became popular (thor, helion and tanks got a nerf). They made the marauder shells an upgrade when the marauder became too strong. Do you really think that they will not do something about terran when they are OP?
Balanced would be removing the concussive shells altogether. It's not an ability that adds anything to the game. Takes no skill using it. A no brainer upgrading it for 50/50. Creates the illusion that terran players are actually pulling off *amazing* micro, when infact it's easy as hell, concussive shelled units are basically queens off of creep. A major pain in the ass for the opponent who has to micro 5 times harder to not fuck up and hopefully at least come out even after the encounter. Don't get me started on Medivacs. They fucking nerfed burrowed roach regeneration rate, when terran have their own roach (MARAUDER) with higher range, slowing attack (concussive shells), more damage, and when healed by a medivac: 3 times the regeneration rate of a burrowed roach! So terrans are basically walking around with superranged roaches with concussive shells, healing at 13.5hp/sec. How hard is it really to be cost efficient with that set up? And mech, let's not go there. The amount of micro it takes for the opponent to even stand a chance beating mech is incomparable to the abysmal amount of micro involved on the terran part. With enough practice, anyone can set up and leap frog a dozen tanks in a push and watch the AI do the rest. While the zerg has to think about: the timing to start producing units, unit mix reacting on terrans units, flanks, counter attacks, drop research/overlord speed upgrade timings, muta switch timing, constantly re-rallying all bases due to sick tank range, saving or abandoning main, refugee style or charge the terran blob? Also need to find time to macro somewhere in there, while constantly thinking about tech switching. Basically there is no way of practising any specific build as a zerg. You merely react. In every case you react to what the terran does. His moving out is the cue for the counter attack. No way for a counter attack? Tough shit, hope you guessed right and timed the drop research well. Actually demolishing a terran main army blob of any composition in a straight on confrontation? Might work 2/10 or 3/10 times, at best, all depending on how well you guessed, i.e. how well your tech tree actually fits to what's moving out of the terran base. The games I win against terrans probably average 35minutes. And they're all after epic and heroic amounts of effort. It's probably been 3-4 patches since I won a game vs a terran in less than 15 minutes (a game not involving baneling bust all-in). There is a huge discrepancy in the amount of effort involved winning a game of ZvT as compared to winning a game of TvZ. Lots of noob players beat me easy all the time. They got no mechanics whatsoever but that don't really matter. Me and the rest of the zergs have to make at least 2-3 educated guesses each game. If we happen to guess wrong it's basically gg, game over just like that. If we happen to survive, it usually turns into an ugly 30-40 minute game where we just barely stay above water while being tormented because our opponents are fucking noobs that don't know how to finish us properly. Attacking a terran or trying to take the initiative in any offensive fashion at this point is impossible. The utterly skillful concussive shell ability sees to that if the terran opts for bio. Mech... yeah pretty much suicide attacking a terran sitting in his base. It's tormenting as hell. Because you don't have any unit that let's you make a comeback. That let's you take the initiative if you're the better player. A unit like the defiler for example. I've never seen a zerg make any sort of awe inspiring comeback against a terran. It just doesn't happen. I've seen a million terrans get lucky with zergs overextending themselves against marauders, or accidentally clumping mutas together too much vs 2 thors who instantly blast them out of the sky, or failing miserably to break a relatively "weak" push involving tanks. There is soooo much room for error on the zerg side it's not even funny. Needed to rant about this. I've been playing the sickest games where I've made some of the sickest moves I've ever made in SC2. Burrow banelingbombing marines in the hundreds repeatedly, tech switching perfectly to mutas vs marauder heavy armies, counter attacking like a god, dropping simultaneous locations like a multitasking god. Yet after 40 minutes of blood, sweat and tears some mechanically inferior terran idiot, not in the least straining himself -- to whom this was "just another game", rolls into my base after I've finally made 1 mistake. Because I'm Zerg, that mistake is irreperable. GG.
That's very interesting. And what would you have to say about Carriers? 
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The best analogy would be imagining Zerg in Broodwar without lurkers. That's pretty much the situation the race is in the way the game is designed. You got medics, but no lurkers.
With no lurkers in BW, you can still win, sure. But you are severely limited in your strategic choices. You have to adopt a "brute force"-like style of playing. Terran will know what strategy you'll opt for every game... mutas. Or mass hydra vs M&M (LOL, pretty much SC2 for you, only thing making SC2 "balanced" is the zerg macro mechanic. In SC2 you can produce more useless units for the terran to kill in a ridiculously cost efficient manner; sometimes you'll luck out though, i mean look at kwanro).
And the zerg mid and lategame can be likened to... defilers without lurkers. Fruitless attempts of killing terrans with pure zerglings and dark swarm. And HYDRAS IN DARK SWARM, LOL. Maybe the occasional guardians (brood lords). In SC2 terran have ground based anti air tanks though (thors), and wraiths (vikings) that fire missiles with longer range than guardians.
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On July 14 2010 20:21 Sadistx wrote:
That's not even close to reality. Z is insanely strong against bio play (1a2a with ling/baneling/muta), and the roach which you happen to mention is probably the worst zerg unit against anything atm, and thanks to banelings still being OP and fungal growth being the best spell in the game, T bio is simply not viable most of the time and you HAVE to go mech to not lose.
Mech is actually balanced now and the epic games you play are clear indicator of that.
Yea bro, going pure bio might be not the best idea(although it's still quite decent), but for example MMM+tank, or marine+tank+banshee or many other combinations from terran seem to be just too strong. Just like lalush said, even if you have clear mechanical and just rts-wise advantage you still might loose due to deadly timing pushes (3 drones too much - you are dead, 3 drones too little - he will outeco your ass off). Playing zerg vs terran feels so dull, I feel like terrans have way more options than we have and all of them are very strong. I'm far from screaming "imba imba", the game is very young and there might be interesting strats developed, but me and even the toppest players feel kinda helpless about terran.
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I would have to agree with lalush here, terran has a much better synergy with their forces than the zerg does. Coupled with all the options they can go early game ( reaper, bunker rush, hellions, hellion marine push, MM push, tank marine push, banshees, banshee viking, pure viking ) zerg is pretty much forced to sit back and wait until the terran attacks right into the defences of the zerg player.
Its even worse when the terran doesn't decide to move out. A turtling terran is the hardest nut to crack in the entire game as zerg.
The only time I won against mech was when I did a huge tech switch to corruptor-broodlord at the end . Because my opponent was too busy killing off my expansions while he could have steamrolled my main long ago.
I would stand by any view saying TvZ is T favoured. They have way more options and not even all the options have been explored ( ghosts with nukes ).
i wouldn't mind the concussive shells upgrade to be later down the road ( after armory is researched ) or be upped in cost like the overlord speed. It won't take away from the fact that marauders are still very cost efficient.
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Look. I'm not necessarily saying the matchup is super imbalanced and broken.
It's more along the lines of: Zerg have absolutely no way in which they can take control. There is no zerg unit that doesn't fall into the "brute force" category, that can help a clearly superior player win easier or make a comeback. In every game, we're basically doomed to play a broodwar PvT without arbiters, and without the ability to tech to carriers.
Our only option is to keep making speedlots, goons, DTs and templars off of 20 gateways, and keep charging into that 3-3 upgraded terran blob. It's not the least fun whatsoever, and it's scewed in the amount of effort the respective races have to put in to win a game.
There is a HUGE discrepancy in the amount of effort it takes for a zerg to win a game, as opposed to the amount of effort it takes a terran. For terrans it's just another standard game using their practised standard build again.
I would be really interested in seeing statistics of average game length where a zerg wins in ZvT, as opposed to average game length where a terran wins TvZ.
Probably a 5 minute difference at least.
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51580 Posts
Anyone not able to watch old replays from the previous Phase 2 patch?
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On July 14 2010 20:48 GTR wrote:
Anyone not able to watch old replays from the previous Phase 2 patch?
Rename or move Base16036 from the Versions directory of SC2, then drag and drop the replay on SC2Switcher.exe (from the Support directory). That should help, worked for me - before I did that replays would load up, but appear as a black screen with nothing but some ambient sound.
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When i logg in the enter window shows, but when i push enter i just come back to the logg in window...
Anyone with the same problem?
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On July 14 2010 20:51 Perfi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 20:48 GTR wrote:
Anyone not able to watch old replays from the previous Phase 2 patch? Rename or move Base16036 from the Versions directory of SC2, then drag and drop the replay on SC2Switcher.exe (from the Support directory). That should help, worked for me - before I did that replays would load up, but appear as a black screen with nothing but some ambient sound.
good call, I was having the same issue. Thanks for the tip!
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yep lalush, sc2 is all about bruteforce. in sc2 u had a few solutions to stopping somethign "ok i got swarm, okay i got the ramp, ok i have some siege tanks and some mines, ok 2 lurekrs on a ramp, awesome, alright so ill emp this and he backs off". and in sc "ok i gotta rape this with a larger army". sad but true
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On July 14 2010 22:13 MorroW wrote:
yep lalush, sc2 is all about bruteforce. in sc2 u had a few solutions to stopping somethign "ok i got swarm, okay i got the ramp, ok i have some siege tanks and some mines, ok 2 lurekrs on a ramp, awesome, alright so ill emp this and he backs off". and in sc "ok i gotta rape this with a larger army". sad but true
Yeah, hopefully this will change in the expansions with the introduction of new units/upgrades. Also, at all the zergs whining about terran's imbalance, if zerg plays well then on most maps its not that hard to beat terran. Bio isn't even viable mid-game because of infestors and muta/ling/baneling, unless the zerg is already at a disadvantage, and if the zerg player takes out the terran ball even once its game over for the terran because he can pump ultras, and in fights between small numbers of ultras and small numbers of thor/tank/marauder, the ultras kinda rape.
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EPT
