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On July 13 2010 06:52 Entropic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 06:50 TheYango wrote:On July 13 2010 04:51 dogabutila wrote:On July 13 2010 04:11 TheYango wrote:On July 13 2010 03:39 Doriboi wrote:
Invitationals should be the exception. However as more money is pumped into the sport, it will be more frequent. While I believe qualifiers should be setup like OSL or MSL, that may not be the norm for a while. Until then, players like MSV, Avilio or CheAse, will be left out until some major league team recognizes them. MSL and OSL are interesting to bring up. While qualifiers seem open, IIRC you have to be a progamer to enter which, in and of itself is already quality assurance. In a sense, OSL and MSL are also invite-only, it's just that no one complains because the "invitations" (progaming licenses) are handled by a governing body that everyone accepts. In the long run, it seems like the medium that people are most likely to accept. With progaming licenses or the like, you have a minimum level of quality that is assured for sponsors and viewers by the skill required to obtain the license. At the same time, you're not locked into just inviting big names to each tournament I'm pretty sure OSL and MSL also have players 'seeded' into higher rounds based on past performance as well. So the way those are run are really no different from invite/open tournaments anyways. This is exactly my point. MSL and OSL are by far the best examples of a long-term functioning E-sports tournament, and the only way into them is by way of "invite" through earning a progaming license. To expand the Korean SC scene paralell further, it seems the OP wants to skip courage, the B team, A team bench and go straight to the OSL/MSL. Why should the organizers spend their time, effort and resources on unknown products (players) and have to deal with unknown returns on their investment?
Well thats what some of the invites did... lol...
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On July 13 2010 06:48 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 06:45 Ocedic wrote:
The OP sounds bitter. If you really deserve to hang with the top dogs, then earn your place. I never said I deserved it or that I wouldn't eventually try and earn my place. I'm willing to try and earn it. I just think there should be less invitationals all around. Thats all. Or when you make an invitational, at least make it fair, not skewed.
According to your logic how would an invitational be fair? (just curious =x)
Oh and its Global Gamers and not Gosu Gamers.
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As a viewer and not a participant of tourneys, it is my opinion that having all these invite tourneys makes the scene much more boring. It's to the point where I feel like every tourney is the same 16 people playing against each other every week for money. I understand that (maybe) to most people this is preferable viewing to have the "top" players play each other for quality games, but to me it's just become tedious and actually turned me slightly off to SC2 as a whole.
Sometimes I need a little variety baby.
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Read through most of this thread, and while I (Sorta?) sympathize with what the OP is saying, at the same time, the strong sense of entitlement and whining is very oft putting. Quite simply, I dont know if I speak for the majority, but the simple fact is that Invite Tournies are immensely more enjoyable for me the viewer to watch, and thus I would assume more attractive for potential sponsors as well.
While it sounds great in theory to have tons of 'unknowns' and underdogs who come out of nowhere to win it all, it just isn't that interesting for me to watch. I dont really care if its fair or not, I want to watch the big 'Names' play, their what draw me to the tournament in the first place. Its the same reason I dont bother following the multitude of other smaller tournies with tons of players I've never heard of. Are the players good? Who knows, but I wont be watching. Win enough of those smaller tournaments and then get invited with the big boys. I'm sure you'll get some attention then.
Recent example would be the awesome community grass roots started Global Gamers tourny. The invited players are a awesome who's who of names, but then you have a shitload of randoms playing. I tuned in and watched a few of them on youtube cause I was bored, and the level of play was pretty damn atrocious. No offense at all to those players, hell, they'd kick my ass, but the calibre is night and day between them and the 'pros'. It basically reminded me why I hate watching guys I've never heard of play.
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United States2095 Posts
Paramore I now see it your way. How dare people who have been part of a TL.net community for years get invited into tournaments. How dare these people who create good tournaments not want my friend's bronze skills to play. How dare there not be plenty of tournaments like SIlver Stars, World Cup, or all of the other tournaments that require players to be below Diamond rank.
Oh wait, you say there are plenty of tournaments that include players who aren't that well known? You say that the invitational is already the rarity? Oh wow.. I so didn't know this, but don't worry Paramore. When I make my Sheth's Not Invitational Literally Everyone Can play tournament I'll invite you.
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On July 13 2010 06:55 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 06:48 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 06:45 Ocedic wrote:
The OP sounds bitter. If you really deserve to hang with the top dogs, then earn your place. I never said I deserved it or that I wouldn't eventually try and earn my place. I'm willing to try and earn it. I just think there should be less invitationals all around. Thats all. Or when you make an invitational, at least make it fair, not skewed. According to your logic how would an invitational be fair? (just curious =x) Oh and its Global Gamers and not Gosu Gamers.
Seed the invitees at the first or second round instead of have them start in what is practically the semi-finals..
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There are maybe 2 or 3 invitationals a month, compared to 4 or 5 open tournaments every single week.
Most of the guys that earn invites to the closed tournaments have made their reputation by consistantly performing well in the weekly Zotac, ESL and Craft Cups.
There's plenty of opportunity for unknown players to make a name for themselves if they're skilled enough, which is what most of the top players have already done. None of the established top tier players in SC2 are still getting by on their reputation from a previous game, they've all proven their skill in this one.
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On July 13 2010 06:58 Sheth wrote:
Paramore I now see it your way. How dare people who have been part of a TL.net community for years get invited into tournaments. How dare these people who create good tournaments not want my friend's bronze skills to play. How dare there not be plenty of tournaments like SIlver Stars, World Cup, or all of the other tournaments that require players to be below Diamond rank.
Oh wait, you say there are plenty of tournaments that include players who aren't that well known? You say that the invitational is already the rarity? Oh wow.. I so didn't know this, but don't worry Paramore. When I make my Sheth's Not Invitational Literally Everyone Can play tournament I'll invite you.
Be sure to get casters for all the round of 512, 256, 128, rounds too. Why should casters only cast ro16 games?
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On July 13 2010 06:58 Sheth wrote:
Paramore I now see it your way. How dare people who have been part of a TL.net community for years get invited into tournaments. How dare these people who create good tournaments not want my friend's bronze skills to play. How dare there not be plenty of tournaments like SIlver Stars, World Cup, or all of the other tournaments that require players to be below Diamond rank.
Oh wait, you say there are plenty of tournaments that include players who aren't that well known? You say that the invitational is already the rarity? Oh wow.. I so didn't know this, but don't worry Paramore. When I make my Sheth's Not Invitational Literally Everyone Can play tournament I'll invite you.
Thanks Sheth, I've never been invited to something before <3 I will make sure I will have the time of day for you in that case! Please, continue to skip over the conversation, especially the parts where tournaments should have requirements for entry instead of flat out invitationals... or how about the part where I mentioned that there was nothing wrong with invitationals, just that there are too damn many of them? Don't mind it, its nothing ^_^ All that matters is that I am invited, <3
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On July 13 2010 06:58 Sheth wrote:
Paramore I now see it your way. How dare people who have been part of a TL.net community for years get invited into tournaments. How dare these people who create good tournaments not want my friend's bronze skills to play. How dare there not be plenty of tournaments like SIlver Stars, World Cup, or all of the other tournaments that require players to be below Diamond rank.
Oh wait, you say there are plenty of tournaments that include players who aren't that well known? You say that the invitational is already the rarity? Oh wow.. I so didn't know this, but don't worry Paramore. When I make my Sheth's Not Invitational Literally Everyone Can play tournament I'll invite you.
easy to say if you are already an invitee
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On July 13 2010 07:02 Entropic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 06:58 Sheth wrote:
Paramore I now see it your way. How dare people who have been part of a TL.net community for years get invited into tournaments. How dare these people who create good tournaments not want my friend's bronze skills to play. How dare there not be plenty of tournaments like SIlver Stars, World Cup, or all of the other tournaments that require players to be below Diamond rank.
Oh wait, you say there are plenty of tournaments that include players who aren't that well known? You say that the invitational is already the rarity? Oh wow.. I so didn't know this, but don't worry Paramore. When I make my Sheth's Not Invitational Literally Everyone Can play tournament I'll invite you.
Be sure to get casters for all the round of 512, 256, 128, rounds too. Why should casters only cast ro16 games?
This bit of sarcasm is really the key. The bigger tournaments are also detrimental to the people trying to get better known. It's really hard to get your game cast in big tournaments of 64+ players. Unless you make it really deep, and even then your quarterfinal may not end up getting cast because two 'known' players are playing in the "must see" quarterfinal.
Hopefully the casting scene grows as quickly as the gaming scene and we can start to see tons more games getting casted.
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I don't have a sense of entitlement to anything here. I stated a clear topic for my thread. Not once did I mention that I should be invited to anything.
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United States2095 Posts
You're invited too Avilo.
Ok I know what your saying, but I really enjoy the hybrid of an invitational that includes the best and spots that are open for qualifiers. I think Global Gamers has a perfect set up. Just my 2 cents.
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On July 13 2010 07:00 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 06:55 KobraKay wrote:On July 13 2010 06:48 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 06:45 Ocedic wrote:
The OP sounds bitter. If you really deserve to hang with the top dogs, then earn your place. I never said I deserved it or that I wouldn't eventually try and earn my place. I'm willing to try and earn it. I just think there should be less invitationals all around. Thats all. Or when you make an invitational, at least make it fair, not skewed. According to your logic how would an invitational be fair? (just curious =x) Oh and its Global Gamers and not Gosu Gamers. Seed the invitees at the first or second round instead of have them start in what is practically the semi-finals..
I was not for or against your point just to be clear but semis are 2 steps after the r16. So practically semifinals is not that accurate. If you ask me a r16 with 4 qualifiers like the global gamers its a really good starting place.
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Invitationals are supposed to be the best tournies, the ones with high profile players who have won plenty of previous tournaments. These players have already showed their hard work in climbing the ladder. Now the audience gets to watch some of the best games on starcraft.
Now, of course there should be open invitationals so lesser knownn players can win those and get their name known. And there are. So I think the system is fine as it is.
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On July 13 2010 07:07 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:00 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 06:55 KobraKay wrote:On July 13 2010 06:48 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 06:45 Ocedic wrote:
The OP sounds bitter. If you really deserve to hang with the top dogs, then earn your place. I never said I deserved it or that I wouldn't eventually try and earn my place. I'm willing to try and earn it. I just think there should be less invitationals all around. Thats all. Or when you make an invitational, at least make it fair, not skewed. According to your logic how would an invitational be fair? (just curious =x) Oh and its Global Gamers and not Gosu Gamers. Seed the invitees at the first or second round instead of have them start in what is practically the semi-finals.. I was not for or against your point just to be clear but semis are 2 steps after the r16. So practically semifinals is not that accurate. If you ask me a r16 with 4 qualifiers like the global gamers its a really good starting place.
Its the part where only 4 of the 128 other people that had to fight for it, get qualified into this elite circle... I guess its a tournament that got bigger than they expected it to be... I'm not trashing the GGI2, I'm a part of it.... good on the organizers for organizing something like this, I just wish there were more such great organizers organizing non 75% end-round invites so we can see some more action. Instead, its an injustice to the first 128 because they'll all be basically ignored by the community, whether I'm in it or not.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2010 06:56 R A V wrote:
As a viewer and not a participant of tourneys, it is my opinion that having all these invite tourneys makes the scene much more boring. It's to the point where I feel like every tourney is the same 16 people playing against each other every week for money. I understand that (maybe) to most people this is preferable viewing to have the "top" players play each other for quality games, but to me it's just become tedious and actually turned me slightly off to SC2 as a whole.
Sometimes I need a little variety baby.
It'll create less variety than you think. Using an SC1 analogy again, you *could* force Flash and Jaedong to have to grind through preliminaries every time to get back into the OSL and MSL, but do you *really* think that they wouldn't make it? And even if they did, would it really produce better games? Most of the time when a player gets ousted from a league by a nobody in SC1, that player ends up just failing badly in the next round, and we just end up with an overall worse set of games for the rounds to come.
You could open OSL and MSL to amateurs, but at the Ro32 and Ro16 level it would make no difference in the participants. All it would do is create a logistical nightmare for the lower levels.
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On July 13 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
Invitationals are supposed to be the best tournies, the ones with high profile players who have won plenty of previous tournaments. These players have already showed their hard work in climbing the ladder. Now the audience gets to watch some of the best games on starcraft.
Now, of course there should be open invitationals so lesser knownn players can win those and get their name known. And there are. So I think the system is fine as it is.
If 90% of the tournies were invitationals, it'd be pretty fucking boring... Hell.. if even 50% of the tournaments were invitational.. whats so special about getting an invite anymore? I thought invitationals were suppose to be prestigious.. after the first 5 in a matter of 1 month, I just got tired of seeing the same players getting invited, even if they were garbage 2 tournaments ago...
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On July 13 2010 07:14 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
Invitationals are supposed to be the best tournies, the ones with high profile players who have won plenty of previous tournaments. These players have already showed their hard work in climbing the ladder. Now the audience gets to watch some of the best games on starcraft.
Now, of course there should be open invitationals so lesser knownn players can win those and get their name known. And there are. So I think the system is fine as it is. If 90% of the tournies were invitationals, it'd be pretty fucking boring... Hell.. if even 50% of the tournaments were invitational.. whats so special about getting an invite anymore? I thought invitationals were suppose to be prestigious.. after the first 5 in a matter of 1 month, I just got tired of seeing the same players getting invited, even if they were garbage 2 tournaments ago...
I got tired of seeing Jaedong and Flash in Semifinals/Finals all the time too. Bastards got seeded into ro16.
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You know what I had somethign long typed out but this thread is insane so let's just cover all the tournaments with open sign ups:
Open Sign ups
ITC
GG Inv
Wolf Cup
TRoU
EuroCraft
ZOTAC
Closing Beta KOTH
ESL
Sunday Warriors
ISC Cup
Inflow Recruits
Micro/Macro
TransTasman
InSC Liberty Cup
SC2 World Cup
Clan Property
VISTA Lasik Tourney
West vs. East
Beta Re-Uptake
PoleCraft
BASC
Green Forest E-Cafe
iCCup TV KOTH
Invite ONLY:
ITL
HDH
MLG
Gosucoaching Showdown's
You see a problem with your point? This is only off page one of the SC Tourney forum.
And anyway you look at it all 12 of those people for the GG Inv have earned it. let's stop beating around the bush man. YOU are pissed you didn't get seeded despite not winning anything significant to get there.
The other problem is YOU made a very poor decision by switching your name. That was really dumb cause Paramore was JUST beginning to become a known name.
Don't insult tournament organizers that are just trying to have some fun (remember GG iNV was originally out of the organizer's pockets 100%). Don't like the format? There's a VERY easy solution. Don't play. if no one plays or watches invitationals than they will die.
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EPT
