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On July 13 2010 07:14 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
Invitationals are supposed to be the best tournies, the ones with high profile players who have won plenty of previous tournaments. These players have already showed their hard work in climbing the ladder. Now the audience gets to watch some of the best games on starcraft.
Now, of course there should be open invitationals so lesser knownn players can win those and get their name known. And there are. So I think the system is fine as it is. If 90% of the tournies were invitationals, it'd be pretty fucking boring... Hell.. if even 50% of the tournaments were invitational.. whats so special about getting an invite anymore? I thought invitationals were suppose to be prestigious.. after the first 5 in a matter of 1 month, I just got tired of seeing the same players getting invited, even if they were garbage 2 tournaments ago...
No, the games are still pretty epic. After all, its the games were watching. Its not the invite that's special, its you yourself. The invite is merely an indication that other players have recognized your thriving.
I mean, even look at the Micro Macro tournament two. Before it was unfortunately postponed(canceled?), the winners of the previous Micro Macro tournament(open tournament) got invites as well. It's just a ladder to climb in laddering up.
+ Show Spoiler +Yes, I did want to have ladder, climb, and laddering up, in the same sentence n.n
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United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2010 07:14 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
Invitationals are supposed to be the best tournies, the ones with high profile players who have won plenty of previous tournaments. These players have already showed their hard work in climbing the ladder. Now the audience gets to watch some of the best games on starcraft.
Now, of course there should be open invitationals so lesser knownn players can win those and get their name known. And there are. So I think the system is fine as it is. If 90% of the tournies were invitationals, it'd be pretty fucking boring... Hell.. if even 50% of the tournaments were invitational.. whats so special about getting an invite anymore? I thought invitationals were suppose to be prestigious.. after the first 5 in a matter of 1 month, I just got tired of seeing the same players getting invited, even if they were garbage 2 tournaments ago...
The Korean Starcraft scene is basically 2 tournaments that are, for all intents and purposes, invite only. Guess it's "pretty fucking boring" too.
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On July 13 2010 07:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:14 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
Invitationals are supposed to be the best tournies, the ones with high profile players who have won plenty of previous tournaments. These players have already showed their hard work in climbing the ladder. Now the audience gets to watch some of the best games on starcraft.
Now, of course there should be open invitationals so lesser knownn players can win those and get their name known. And there are. So I think the system is fine as it is. If 90% of the tournies were invitationals, it'd be pretty fucking boring... Hell.. if even 50% of the tournaments were invitational.. whats so special about getting an invite anymore? I thought invitationals were suppose to be prestigious.. after the first 5 in a matter of 1 month, I just got tired of seeing the same players getting invited, even if they were garbage 2 tournaments ago... The Korean Starcraft scene is basically 2 tournaments that are, for all intents and purposes, invite only. Guess it's "pretty fucking boring" too.
Its not boring but it really shits on people who want to be progamers. Even if you're really really good, you'll probably only be a house practice partner.
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On July 13 2010 07:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:14 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
Invitationals are supposed to be the best tournies, the ones with high profile players who have won plenty of previous tournaments. These players have already showed their hard work in climbing the ladder. Now the audience gets to watch some of the best games on starcraft.
Now, of course there should be open invitationals so lesser knownn players can win those and get their name known. And there are. So I think the system is fine as it is. If 90% of the tournies were invitationals, it'd be pretty fucking boring... Hell.. if even 50% of the tournaments were invitational.. whats so special about getting an invite anymore? I thought invitationals were suppose to be prestigious.. after the first 5 in a matter of 1 month, I just got tired of seeing the same players getting invited, even if they were garbage 2 tournaments ago... The Korean Starcraft scene is basically 2 tournaments that are, for all intents and purposes, invite only. Guess it's "pretty fucking boring" too.
So is the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, SAME TEAMS OVER AND OVER WTF no variety
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On July 13 2010 07:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:14 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
Invitationals are supposed to be the best tournies, the ones with high profile players who have won plenty of previous tournaments. These players have already showed their hard work in climbing the ladder. Now the audience gets to watch some of the best games on starcraft.
Now, of course there should be open invitationals so lesser knownn players can win those and get their name known. And there are. So I think the system is fine as it is. If 90% of the tournies were invitationals, it'd be pretty fucking boring... Hell.. if even 50% of the tournaments were invitational.. whats so special about getting an invite anymore? I thought invitationals were suppose to be prestigious.. after the first 5 in a matter of 1 month, I just got tired of seeing the same players getting invited, even if they were garbage 2 tournaments ago... The Korean Starcraft scene is basically 2 tournaments that are, for all intents and purposes, invite only. Guess it's "pretty fucking boring" too.
This. Seriously. x10000000
Plus this is about the fans not the players. If the fans were not here you would not be playing for anything. You would be like those guys that are REALLY good at Diablo 2. Sure they can beat anyone in the world in a PvP battle. But it sucks to wtach and no one cares so they stomp everyone for free.
Players need to get over this "me me me" attitude that has shown up with SC2 and be asking the fans what they want.
It's why I welcome emails at ANY times from any iCCup TV fan (iccup.diamond@gmail.com) and am CONSTANTLY monitor feedback from my fans and look at every post about an ITL. This is not about you, or TLO, this is about the thousands of people that love SC2 and we need to make THEM happy. If they want TLO, fucking give them TLO.....
On July 13 2010 07:26 Backpack wrote:
Its not boring but it really shits on people who want to be progamers. Even if you're really really good, you'll probably only be a house practice partner.
That just means you're not good enough.
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On July 13 2010 07:18 Entropic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:14 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
Invitationals are supposed to be the best tournies, the ones with high profile players who have won plenty of previous tournaments. These players have already showed their hard work in climbing the ladder. Now the audience gets to watch some of the best games on starcraft.
Now, of course there should be open invitationals so lesser knownn players can win those and get their name known. And there are. So I think the system is fine as it is. If 90% of the tournies were invitationals, it'd be pretty fucking boring... Hell.. if even 50% of the tournaments were invitational.. whats so special about getting an invite anymore? I thought invitationals were suppose to be prestigious.. after the first 5 in a matter of 1 month, I just got tired of seeing the same players getting invited, even if they were garbage 2 tournaments ago... I got tired of seeing Jaedong and Flash in Semifinals/Finals all the time too. Bastards got seeded into ro16.
you do know that jaedong had to go through qualifiers when he lost in the round of 16 once and he still made it to the next tourney
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On July 13 2010 07:20 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
You know what I had somethign long typed out but this thread is insane so let's just cover all the tournaments with open sign ups:
Open Sign ups
ITC
GG Inv
Wolf Cup
TRoU
EuroCraft
ZOTAC
Closing Beta KOTH
ESL
Sunday Warriors
ISC Cup
Inflow Recruits
Micro/Macro
TransTasman
InSC Liberty Cup
SC2 World Cup
Clan Property
VISTA Lasik Tourney
West vs. East
Beta Re-Uptake
PoleCraft
BASC
Green Forest E-Cafe
iCCup TV KOTH
Invite ONLY:
ITL
MLG
Gosucoaching Showdown's
You see a problem with your point? This is only off page one of the SC Tourney forum.
And anyway you look at it all 12 of those people for the GG Inv have earned it. let's stop beating around the bush man. YOU are pissed you didn't get seeded despite not winning anything significant to get there.
The other problem is YOU made a very poor decision by switching your name. That was really dumb cause Paramore was JUST beginning to become a known name.
Don't insult tournament organizers that are just trying to have some fun (remember GG iNV was originally out of the organizer's pockets 100%). Don't like the format? There's a VERY easy solution. Don't play. if no one plays or watches invitationals than they will die.
you forgot HDH, and a few other invite only tournaments that had 20x the prize money of all the non-invite ones put together.
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On July 13 2010 07:28 avilo wrote:
you forgot HDH, and a few other invite only tournaments that had 20x the prize money of all the non-invite ones put together.
Besides HDH please inform me which other ones I forgot that were invite onyl and had good prize money?
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Well if i would host a tourney i sure as hell would only invite some stars since it is a lot less work and more successful.
Who are we to tell others how the have to spend their money?
Of course rising stars have almost no chance to make a name for themselves right now, because they do not get invited.
It is not because of ill intentions, but the timing.
Once the game goes into retail Blizzard will surely start their own very big things at which point it will become skill again which decides who makes a name or not.
It is understandable that a few very skilled and unknown players are saddened about this current situation, but since retail starts in just 2 weeks i think everyone should just use these 2 weeks to sharpen their skills and use them at blizzards 1st big tourney which will surely start immediately after retail.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2010 07:26 Backpack wrote:
Its not boring but it really shits on people who want to be progamers. Even if you're really really good, you'll probably only be a house practice partner.
B-team progamers get to play in MSL and OSL prelims. In fact, I believe they are required to (seeing as Idra had to play in OSL prelims in order to keep his progaming license).
I don't think any more of them would be qualifying for the Ro16 if Flash/Effort/Kal/Pure weren't seeded. The system that "shits on people who want to be progamers" has absolutely nothing to do with the tournament structure.
On July 13 2010 07:28 Looky wrote:
you do know that jaedong had to go through qualifiers when he lost in the round of 16 once and he still made it to the next tourney
Which means the only thing not seeding good players accomplishes is making their practice schedules harder and giving us a few shitty games where they stomp players that are significantly worse.
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On July 13 2010 07:28 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:20 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
You know what I had somethign long typed out but this thread is insane so let's just cover all the tournaments with open sign ups:
Open Sign ups
ITC
GG Inv
Wolf Cup
TRoU
EuroCraft
ZOTAC
Closing Beta KOTH
ESL
Sunday Warriors
ISC Cup
Inflow Recruits
Micro/Macro
TransTasman
InSC Liberty Cup
SC2 World Cup
Clan Property
VISTA Lasik Tourney
West vs. East
Beta Re-Uptake
PoleCraft
BASC
Green Forest E-Cafe
iCCup TV KOTH
Invite ONLY:
ITL
MLG
Gosucoaching Showdown's
You see a problem with your point? This is only off page one of the SC Tourney forum.
And anyway you look at it all 12 of those people for the GG Inv have earned it. let's stop beating around the bush man. YOU are pissed you didn't get seeded despite not winning anything significant to get there.
The other problem is YOU made a very poor decision by switching your name. That was really dumb cause Paramore was JUST beginning to become a known name.
Don't insult tournament organizers that are just trying to have some fun (remember GG iNV was originally out of the organizer's pockets 100%). Don't like the format? There's a VERY easy solution. Don't play. if no one plays or watches invitationals than they will die.
you forgot HDH, and a few other invite only tournaments that had 20x the prize money of all the non-invite ones put together.
He said those were off the Tournament forums... not past Tournaments.
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Even if people agree with your points (thought I think you're over exaggerating quite a lot, as iCCup.diamond's post shows), that there should be more open tournaments, your post sounds childish and whiny and I think that's why people are jumping on you.
Post about how you hope for more open tournaments. Explain why open tournaments are a good thing. Do it without all the "but honestly, who qualified them?" schtick, and maybe people would be more likely to be on your side.
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On July 13 2010 07:30 Teejing wrote:
Once the game goes into retail Blizzard will surely start their own very big things at which point it will become skill again which decides who makes a name or not.
It is understandable that a few very skilled and unknown players are saddened about this current situation, but since retail starts in just 2 weeks i think everyone should just use these 2 weeks to sharpen their skills and use them at blizzards 1st big tourney which will surely start immediately after retail.
I think you're being too optimistic. I think the message from Blizz has come through loud and clear. They only care about e-sports in Korea right now. They are already setting up college funds or w/e in Korea but have not dropped one cent into any prize pools in the states.
Anyone waiting for Blizz to come save the day might want to not hold their breath.
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[QUOTE]On July 13 2010 07:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 13 2010 07:23 TheYango wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 13 2010 07:14 Paramore wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 13 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 13 2010 07:26 Backpack wrote:
Its not boring but it really shits on people who want to be progamers. Even if you're really really good, you'll probably only be a house practice partner.[/QUOTE]
That just means you're not good enough.
[/QUOTE]
It means all of the publicity is limited to the same players who are always on top.
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8751 Posts
On July 13 2010 07:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:14 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
Invitationals are supposed to be the best tournies, the ones with high profile players who have won plenty of previous tournaments. These players have already showed their hard work in climbing the ladder. Now the audience gets to watch some of the best games on starcraft.
Now, of course there should be open invitationals so lesser knownn players can win those and get their name known. And there are. So I think the system is fine as it is. If 90% of the tournies were invitationals, it'd be pretty fucking boring... Hell.. if even 50% of the tournaments were invitational.. whats so special about getting an invite anymore? I thought invitationals were suppose to be prestigious.. after the first 5 in a matter of 1 month, I just got tired of seeing the same players getting invited, even if they were garbage 2 tournaments ago... The Korean Starcraft scene is basically 2 tournaments that are, for all intents and purposes, invite only. Guess it's "pretty fucking boring" too.
Courage tournaments are open to anyone. Win a Courage tournament and you get to play in OSL and MSL qualifiers.
OSL and MSL are essentially open leagues that have several qualification steps. The only way to skip qualification steps (which is a similar thing to being invited) is to place high in a previous OSL/MSL. But everyone starts from the bottom and everyone has to do something to earn every spot they get.
I should also mention that the two big StarCraft tournaments outside of Korea, WCG and TSL, are both open as well. They both allow for skipping qualification steps after performing well in a previous WCG/TSL, but it's still an open event for almost everyone involved, and everyone earns every spot they're given.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2010 07:32 Backpack wrote:
It means all of the publicity is limited to the same players who are always on top.
Minor League/Dream League does exist. The fact that it's not televised probably speaks to the fact that it doesn't attract a large enough viewership to be worthwhile.
On July 13 2010 07:38 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Courage tournaments are open to anyone. Win a Courage tournament and you get to play in OSL and MSL qualifiers.
OSL and MSL are essentially open leagues that have several qualification steps. The only way to skip qualification steps (which is a similar thing to being invited) is to place high in a previous OSL/MSL. But everyone starts from the bottom and everyone has to do something to earn every spot they get.
From the standpoint of an uninformed viewer, winning Courage to qualify for MSL, or being seeded based on previous standings is fairly similar to being seeded based on performance in other tournaments. The primary difference is that I don't think the current SC2 tournament structure has a strong organizing body to govern the logistics of this sort of thing. Until that exists, I don't see slightly more informal tournament seeds based on past performance being a bad thing.
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On July 13 2010 07:26 Backpack wrote:
It means all of the publicity is limited to the same players who are always on top.
And if they're always on top, shouldn't they get the publicity.
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Calgary25990 Posts
Name one competitive game or sport that has the same players always at the top.
Edit: Not one player, but 16 of the same at the top for 6 months.
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8751 Posts
On July 13 2010 07:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 07:30 Teejing wrote:
Once the game goes into retail Blizzard will surely start their own very big things at which point it will become skill again which decides who makes a name or not.
It is understandable that a few very skilled and unknown players are saddened about this current situation, but since retail starts in just 2 weeks i think everyone should just use these 2 weeks to sharpen their skills and use them at blizzards 1st big tourney which will surely start immediately after retail. I think you're being too optimistic. I think the message from Blizz has come through loud and clear. They only care about e-sports in Korea right now. They are already setting up college funds or w/e in Korea but have not dropped one cent into any prize pools in the states. Anyone waiting for Blizz to come save the day might want to not hold their breath.
If Blizzard focuses on Korea, MLG will take care of North America.
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Here, I took your first post and made it less offensive. If you posted in a less aggressive manner I think you would get some support. People may agree that more open tournaments would be a good thing, but that doesn't mean they agree with your "spoon fed" invitees viewpoint.
+ Show Spoiler +Sure... once in a while, by well known stakeholders is completely understandable and great. Who wouldn't want to see a soccer match with the best of the best stacked against each other on each team? However, the recent trend for tournaments posted on the Team Liquid SC2 Tournament forum is to have a degree of 'invitational' in it. I do understand, however, that its a free world out there, and if you had enough money and wanted to make a tournament exclusively for pro-scene and only wanted to exclusively watch those players play, nothing is stopping you. SC2 tournaments should be 60-80% or even more non-invitational, meaning, completely open. Instead, we are seeing more tournaments than ever with reserved spots for players and very few tournaments that have all their spots given in a free-for-all. Wolf Cup 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133169 I talked to the organizer of this tournament. He's a really nice guy and hell, I'd even say we were friends after a few conversations. His tournament, is not very wide known, certainly not as large as GosuGamers SC2 invitational and only had a $50 prize pool out of his own pocket as opposed to a $1500 with t-shirts and hardware sponsors etc. Even then, he still reserved the last few spots for well-knowns and put a "star" beside the names of those that "deserved" it. I think every single person that signed up for that tournament deserved a star. If this is the trend that is going to be for the new SC2 scene, it’s going to be a lot harder for really talented players to become competitive. After a grueling ro128 if someone makes it to the ro4, they have to face another ro16. It’s very difficult for people trying to get through. I'm not saying invitationals are bad, but too many are not good for the community and do more harm than good. What does the community think? Should invitationals be the exception or should they be the norm? How should we define our competition?
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EPT
